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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | willtill - 2011-11-29 5:52 AM Back in the '70's we didn't have the Internet either. So the exposure to the pro's and con's of running a darkside were not so amplified. NO! The 'pro's and con's' were VERY amplified. I read every issue of Motorcycle Magazine & Cycle Canada. And from time to time I read articles that were written by Tire Engineers and other 'experts' - and they were adament: DO NOT PUT A CAR TIRE ON A MOTORCYCLE - for your HEALTH mostly! I would like to see bike racers test the same bike - with C/T and with stock tires on a timed circuit. I would put money on the bike tires beating the HELL out of C/T's. According to you C/T experts, I am sure they are fine on freeways, flat straight riding or pulling a trailer, or trikes. But for my mountain riding - NO WAY! That picture earlier in this post of a C/T next to a bike tire should be enought to convince anyone of the degree of handling LOSS with C/T. |
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Tourer
Posts: 394
Tucson, AZ | Yes Don, we all understand your position on this subject. You have let all us know over and over what it is. It's no different than loud pipes vs stock pipes, full synthetic vs synthetic blend, or high performance cams vs stock cams. It's a personal choice. No one is going to change their minds because of your negative comments. I've ridden over 35,000 miles on two bikes on the dark side with no problems. Can you site me just ONE incident where a rider has died, wrecked, or was injured because he was running a car tire? I've said it before and I'll say it again, what did Boss Hoss put on their bikes from 1990 until Avon came out with the Avon 280? A car tire! How many law suits were filed against Boss Hoss because buyers were injured or killed running on a car tire they installed?
BTW I run 35 psi on my Potenza. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Just something I found on the darkside of the web.
(TireForces1.jpg)
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | okay, in layman terms what does that mean? Car tires are bad on cars but good on motorcycles....? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 825
, WI | I prefer personal experience over reading magazines.
I put a car tire on my Vision. If I didn't like it I would have removed it.
I ride a Vision, I have a car tire and use Amsoil. Apparently I don't care WTF others think.
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | it means a CT will conform to keep a useful contact patch.
If you think about the physics behind tires and the contact patch, they are all relatively the same based on the pressure in the tires. If you have a 800 pound motorcycle, and the tires are at 40psi, you will have 20 square inches of contact. a wider tire will have a shorter contact patch and a narrower tire will have a thinner but longer contact patch. A CT will have the same size contact patch as a MT. the difference will be in how that patch is shaped. A MT will pretty much keep the same contact patch shape regardless of the angle of the bike. A CT will vary more depending on the angle. It will go from short and fat on the straights, to long and narrow on the turns, The deformity of the sidewall means that it will be a more gradual change. Sidewall deformation on a CT is good for motorcycles but bad for cars. On a car, that deformity shows up when the shear force (the force caused by the car wanting to continue in a straight path and the tires trying to make it go in a different direction) deform the sidewall, causing a lag in the turn. That is why permormance cars go with lower profile tires. The tradeoff on a car is it's ability to absorb road shock, making for a bumpy ride. As shocks get better, this is less of a concern.
OK, I digress. .
So, what is better for motorcycle handling? A short/fat contact patch or a long/narrow patch. Since most 'racers' use a wide tire, I would go with short/fat.
The CT on the motorcycle will have an ever changing patch shape, and gradually(based on sidewall deformation) will become narrower that what a MT would have. The question is, Is that angle before or after you have ground away your floorboards? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | On a side note, Motorcycles experience shear forces as well, but because it can angle, that force is kept more in line with the tire.
Edited by Nozzledog 2011-11-29 11:21 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | I guess there's no arguing with 'experts'. Last you'll hear from me on the subject. (hoo-ray I can hear .... ) |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| I have a question for those of you on the dark side..... why does it seem like so many of you who go with a car tire, go with what sounds like a cheap Asian made one instead of a decent name brand like Goodyear or Michelin? While I may consider putting a car tire on my Vision at some point, I certainly don't see putting a cheaper tire on my bike than what I put on my car.... It's already "risky" enough as it is just going to a car tire, but then to compound the situation by going with the cheapest one I can find, just doesn't sound like a good idea.
So.... is there anyone running a Goodyear or Michelin? If so, which model and size?
Edited by Turk 2011-12-02 7:43 AM
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Central Wisconsin | Turk - 2011-12-02 7:41 AM I have a question for those of you on the dark side..... why does it seem like so many of you who go with a car tire, go with what sounds like a cheap Asian made one instead of a decent name brand like Goodyear or Michelin? .................. So.... is there anyone running a Goodyear or Michelin? If so, which model and size? I use to run a Falken CT with a 195mm width. I'm currently running a (175/60R/16) Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D RunFlat which I like better and is made in Germany. I put around 10,000 (2up) miles on the Dunlop CT this year, a mix of highway and mountains.
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Cruiser
Posts: 232
| We have been running c/t for yrs. in the late 50 and 60's dad put vw 16'' tires on his ol harley. I'M darkside 1041 on the GL1800 forum and will try one on the vision when it's time. May not like one on it but will try. Darkside is not for everyone and not every bike, i would not put one on a gsxr 1000 just saying... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 232
| We have been running c/t for yrs. in the late 50 and 60's dad put vw 16'' tires on his ol harley. I'M darkside 1041 on the GL1800 forum and will try one on the vision when it's time. May not like one on it but will try. Darkside is not for everyone and not every bike, i would not put one on a gsxr 1000 just saying... |
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | Turk - 2011-12-02 7:41 AM
I have a question for those of you on the dark side..... why does it seem like so many of you who go with a car tire, go with what sounds like a cheap Asian made one instead of a decent name brand like Goodyear or Michelin? While I may consider putting a car tire on my Vision at some point, I certainly don't see putting a cheaper tire on my bike than what I put on my car.... It's already "risky" enough as it is just going to a car tire, but then to compound the situation by going with the cheapest one I can find, just doesn't sound like a good idea.
So.... is there anyone running a Goodyear or Michelin? If so, which model and size?
Ive only ran two brands of CTs....a Bridgestone and a Goodyear. Most of us dont care what brand name is molded on the side of the tire, we care if it works well. If someone says an "insert whats sounds like a cheap Asian made one" here works well then I wouldnt be concerned and would try it.
You do realize most motorcycle tires are imported....despite where the company molded on the side has its headquarters, right? At one time I believe only Dunlop was making tires in the US, not sure if thats still true.
Asian made stuff doesnt equal junk any more.....hasnt for along time.
Im currently running a Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max 175/60-16.
My previous tire was a Bridgestone Potenza G019 Grid in 185/55-16. It was my favorite but they have stopped making it in that size so I had to switch it up.
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Nothing but good so far with the Dunlop RF Wintersport 175/60r-16.
Now just have to see how long it lasts. It didn't have a wear rating. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Dunlop has two divisions one here in the US and there called dunlop Americans and then there is the Europe ones that most if not all harleys come with.
We don't race our vision well I don't unless its to go in a straight line and beat those hd. I do clover leafs and ribbon roads and there are times I go fast and scrap and lean off to the side. I have checked my CT to see how far over I lean and I'm a inch away from the no return edge. I do think I have a stable ride with the CT and less wind movement.
I asked my insurance person about running one and will I be covered and they said it would be up to the cops to say the CT was at fault for the accident.
Cause of the wide stance of the CT I feel I stop in a shorter distance and the last time in the rain when it was 43 degrees the tire handled just fine. I don't believe you can run a CT on motorcycles that have frame rails on the bottom of the bike cause it will not track right.
Yes the CT is not for all but the ones that have a open mind you'll do just fine with meany great hours of riding.
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Tourer
Posts: 444
Bay of Gigs, WA | Still seems to me (and per the diagram above) that if one is upset because the bike tire "wears flat" due to being on the slab 99% of the time, then by the same token, the car tire should "wear round" by virtue of being leaned over more on the scooter than if it was on a car. Thus, I might expect the car tire to actually improve with mileage as opposed to the bike tire which would deteriorate in it's handling with miles. Does that make sense? And with the 5-600 tread wear ratings (up to 800!) out there, the car tire should continue to improve for a whole lot longer than the bike tire which goes away almost overnight. So this is the question-has anyone done the numbers? Does the CT improve to some point to where it approached or equals the MT? Does it even exceed, like hydroplaning or stopping due to the tread/width? Or is it close enough that the extra longevity makes any shortcoming (or perceived shortcoming) merely a matter of semantics? I don't need a tire at this time, but the day is surely coming, and sooner than any other bike I've owned, given my propensity to ride this one during the more inclement months. So I appreciate these threads a lot, thanks. |
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Tourer
Posts: 444
Bay of Gigs, WA | Still seems to me (and per the diagram above) that if one is upset because the bike tire "wears flat" due to being on the slab 99% of the time, then by the same token, the car tire should "wear round" by virtue of being leaned over more on the scooter than if it was on a car. Thus, I might expect the car tire to actually improve with mileage as opposed to the bike tire which would deteriorate in it's handling with miles. Does that make sense? And with the 5-600 tread wear ratings (up to 800!) out there, the car tire should continue to improve for a whole lot longer than the bike tire which goes away almost overnight. So this is the question-has anyone done the numbers? Does the CT improve to some point to where it approached or equals the MT? Does it even exceed, like hydroplaning or stopping due to the tread/width? Or is it close enough that the extra longevity makes any shortcoming (or perceived shortcoming) merely a matter of semantics? I don't need a tire at this time, but the day is surely coming, and sooner than any other bike I've owned, given my propensity to ride this one during the more inclement months. So I appreciate these threads a lot, thanks. |
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Tourer
Posts: 444
Bay of Gigs, WA | I put new Metzlers on the bike last time, because an E3 wasn't available in Medford, OR, and I was a long way from home with a long way to go yet. The E3 rear had three big cuts in it from some road hazard or another, but upon inspection, I wasn't thrilled about the vulnerability of the tread, vs. the depth and apparent toughness displayed by the pattern of a car tire. So when I'm two up, the last thing I need is to have the rear tire let go because it can't stand up to some piece of shrapnel on some mountain road somewhere, and the burly tread of the car tire seems desirable to me on those grounds alone. I've never used a car tire before, frankly because it never occurred to me until I joined this blog, but I've had more flats on bikes in the last thirty years than I have on cars, that's for sure. |
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | rainryder - 2011-12-02 2:20 PM
Still seems to me (and per the diagram above) that if one is upset because the bike tire "wears flat" due to being on the slab 99% of the time, then by the same token, the car tire should "wear round" by virtue of being leaned over more on the scooter than if it was on a car. Thus, I might expect the car tire to actually improve with mileage as opposed to the bike tire which would deteriorate in it's handling with miles. Does that make sense? And with the 5-600 tread wear ratings (up to 800!) out there, the car tire should continue to improve for a whole lot longer than the bike tire which goes away almost overnight. So this is the question-has anyone done the numbers? Does the CT improve to some point to where it approached or equals the MT? Does it even exceed, like hydroplaning or stopping due to the tread/width? Or is it close enough that the extra longevity makes any shortcoming (or perceived shortcoming) merely a matter of semantics? I don't need a tire at this time, but the day is surely coming, and sooner than any other bike I've owned, given my propensity to ride this one during the more inclement months. So I appreciate these threads a lot, thanks.
It doesnt "wear round" in my experience.
Your correct that the CT doesnt deteriorate handling wise though. My E3 handled great till about 4K then dropped off considerably as the tire cupped horrible. The car tire handles a little different for the first 200 miles or so....then its the same till the day you wear it slick or change it - no appreciable difference in handling.
This is a picture of my Bridgestone with about 24K miles on it.....worn perfectly all the way across the tire - no cupping or distortion. 
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Tourer
Posts: 444
Bay of Gigs, WA | AaronnK:
Cool! And it still looks like it's not quite to the wear bars yet. Now, I know some "sticky" car tires wear quickly, and I'm going to guess that your Potenza there is one of those. Ergo, a really sticky car tire will still last twice as long as a bike tire given what I'm seeing here.
The higher wear ratings might tend to make a CT more slick due to harder compounds, so I'd think it would be prudent to avoid those-but the high performance ones, with twice the wear and at less than half the price...Hmmm. And the pic on the previous page of the car and bike tire in the pickup bed together also lets me know the difference in size and shape isn't that much between the two, beyond the much more aggressive tread on the CT.
Also, 4-500 lbs. of weight on the tire on the bike vs. about 750-1200 lbs. (depending) on the car will allow one to run less air pressure without heat buildup and still allow more deformity in corners to compensate for the grip/size of contact patch (though perhaps still not as much as a bike tire, but the aggressive tread may make up for that somewhat). This is very informative. Thanks much!
Edited by rainryder 2011-12-02 6:37 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | Has anyone tried the Dark Side at the drag strip? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 249
Phenix City AL. | So, puttin after market exhuast that is stamped for off road use only, should not be put on the vision ? I am shure the experts would say, they will damage the motor and cause extera power, witch will cause excessive HP, that could result in the rear tire breaking contact with the road, and the rider will loose control and crash. LOL With all the reading I have been doing on this site and the VMC, I will be going dark side when my new wheels come in. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | It appears that every post I read supporting the use of a car tire on a motorcycle includes some kind of compromise "that you get used to". The only actual 'positive' statement I have ever heard about going 'darkside' is that it's cheaper. Seems odd to buy a $20K motorcycle and cheap out on the tires.
Seems like buying a $50k Travel Trailer and sleeping in you tow vehicle because it's cheaper to heat. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 825
, WI | glighto11 - 2011-12-03 9:05 AM It appears that every post I read supporting the use of a car tire on a motorcycle includes some kind of compromise "that you get used to". The only actual 'positive' statement I have ever heard about going 'darkside' is that it's cheaper. Seems odd to buy a $20K motorcycle and cheap out on the tires. Seems like buying a $50k Travel Trailer and sleeping in you tow vehicle because it's cheaper to heat. My reason, mileage and thread options. I would spend $500 for a tire if it would help me complete a ride. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 262
Flowery Branch Ga | The "getting used to it" was no different than coming off a Sportster onto the Vision. I had to "get used to it". It may be different, but no so much in a bad way. Kind of like buying a new car and getting used to it compared to the old car. The cheaper price, mileage leangth, and certain handling characteristics are all a plus. Putting up with the naysayers who have never tried it and getting used to something new are the negaties. For me, I don't see the need to go back to a MT on the rear. The CT has done all that I've asked of it and had more to give. Don't count out the "cheaper Aisan brands" as most are as good as the name brands and have been ran with success. JMHO@O
Wayne |
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All Dark Siders (car tire) please step inside
