varyder - 2010-09-18 2:01 PM Let me take this moment and apologize to team222 and anyone else I may have offended.   

Thank you....but you really did not have to apologize.......things like this just happen.   However, to do so for the world to see is the sign of a person we all want ride with and know.  

I doubt you have got yourself in more binds on forums than I have .....so lets move forward to meeting up sometime and go from there.  You are not that far from Harrisburg, PA and we get to Marlinton, WV often for rides....infact will be there if all goes well October 8 - 10 at the Marlinton Motor Inn along with other friends.  Think on it.

I have been on forums from the get go and it is a difficult media to communicate unlike a rally for example when everyone can see each other and it only takes a second or so to formulate the right answer each time until that topic is done and another started.  Plus, being able to see the other person/and hearing exactly what is said and how they say it..... is far more exacting than typing.

So thank you for your thoughts and soon with all this input I hope to get past the slow speed turn in issue with all this help.  Additionally, I am going to contact a motorcycle road race suspension expert I know on what mechanically could cause this as another path beyond what everyone has stated in this thread as a means to make sure everything is covered

Best and hope to see you and everyone at the Vision rally this coming weekend near Harrisburg

Mike

wroman - 2010-09-19 5:41 AM Mike, I have read the post's through and want to ask a question because if you stated the bikes you previously owned I did not catch it. A large fixed fairing bike takes some getting used to, mostly at slow speed. I run Bridgestone front tires and the steering input at slow speeds is faster but not twitchy. I always run 40 psi in ft tire. Having the air pressure in shock set at what is recomended two up is too high for me.

Amen..............and very good point.

Prior Bikes: From the get go in the 1960s most of my bikes have been sport based. BSA Goldstar road racer, other fast agile singles, Moto Guzzi V7 Sport, 75 Goldwing made into an endurance racer, 1980 Honda CBX early model that over time I finally got to handle, 89 FZR 1000, Aprilia Caponord set up for the back roads and two up touring ............and before the Vision.........a Concours 14. Each of these bikes required finite adjustments over time to get what I wanted in handling and balance ........the CBX taking 15 ....one step at a time years to get straightened out.  Additionally and to be fair the Concours 14 also had turnin issues at slow speed riding two up but much less than the Vision.

My Large Fixed Fairing Bike Experience: You were toooo kind in your post...........so I know and will admit I was the least prepared of any of you by past riding experience for a big tour bike like the Vision....but at this stage in life the thought was it might just be time for me to grow up a bit .........plus my wife and I wanted the option to talk long trips both loved the Vision over all the big tour bikes we did demos.....infact we did three demos on the Vision to make sure and I dont recall this slow speed turn in being such an issue for us as our Vision.

Tires on our Vision:  Dunlop ElitesFrom all this in the past one thing became clear to me.....having a bike that handled real good solo did not mean that same bike would handle two up.   This Vision is no exception but it is the best solo and two up both with the sole problem being the issue.  Bottom line I have no slow speed turn in issues riding solo...........buttttt, slow speed turnin problems riding two up.

Tire Pressure:   I have been running the tire pressure recommended by Victory in the front and back

Shock Pressure:   Same....what is recommended, but this also seems to high for us also since it gives jolting ride over bumps.

With everyone help I will get to the bottom of this, but I think given all the input I just am not comfortable getting the bike down into slow turns for fear of it falling over and I am causing some/most took these tight/slow turns tooooo slow and as such had to go wide or the bike would fall over since I was already going wayyyyyyyy too slow.  If that makes sense the way I typed it.

As such at this point, I am thinking most of this might be me simply not knowing how to ride the bike at the right speed with authority and skill in slow speed turns since no one else has confirmed this issue to the degree I have it.............so practicing the box thing that was recommended will be the first step and keep practicing until I get confident with this.........and along with this keep checking the tire and shock pressure to make sure they stay constant......... 

Thanks

Mike

One of my brothers had an 8ball Vision and he was having problems in slow speed turns while riding two up.  turns out that there were two problems.  1st was his shock was blown.  Wouldn't hold air.  Second was the there was some alignment problems, that would actually make the bike go into neutral (false neutral) when he had his wife on the back.  Dealer fixed both and he had no more problems with it.

Great input.   I am going to check the rear shock more often.   Can you go into the false neutral issue a bit more.

Curious.....does he still have the 8 Ball?

Mike

pollolittle - 2010-09-20 10:24 AM He listed years and now we know he's an old guy! OHHHH! Can it get any worse! But I do remember theh Cher riding the barrel of that Battleship and I was in the Navy at the time, wondering to myself why she didn't come over to our ship. I was a young pup then but would have been happy to see the older lady in her outfit. This is just me speaking out loud. But I notice with no brake input on a slow speed turn, I wind up giving it more throttle to stay upright, which my speed increases quickly, forcing me to go further out, way out. Can you drag your floorboards in a tight turn? I can, but for most it is quite unnerving to say the least with that amount of weight shifting in a hurry. It seems to be unnatural for a lack of better words. But seems to be easily manageable by using only the back brake, and most people absolutely hate a tight right turn. Try sneakin' a cheek over to the outside edge of the seat, to help offset the weight shift to the inside as quickly, to see if that helps. Then if it does, you know it really is YOU. Then, as you continue to make the turns, have your cheek move back to the center of the bike. How did you do it before on some of the smaller bikes? Seems the longer wheelbase adds another dimension of perplexity, which you may not be accustomed to and of course just the sheer weight of the bike, gets its own respect. Do tell, have you tried it yet, I gotta know? Well? How about now? Anything? C'mon fess up old timer?

"He" is me I guess so here I am ......fessen up.  I am old....but along way wore out knee pads at track days and road racing and with near or no cheeks on the seat....so I never thought that moving half a cheek over on the seat of a big tour bike would solve the running wide on very slow tight runs, but will give it a try since half a cheek for me is big, heavy and wide....it could work.  

Stuff you guys are used to on big tour bikes can be an daunting for those of us that dont have experience on them  This does not mean we dont know anything about bikes or not knowing how to ride in all cases.........oftne I think it might mean an issue or so with ownership of a our first big bike and we need some help.    Few other examples:

1.  I am not used to looking through windscreens.  The Vision on low windscreen setting has me looking over it on the interstates but on back roads right into the line at the top of the screen on hills.  Cresting a hill and a sharp turn is a nightmare....all I see is the top of the windsreen line going up and down right where I want to see.   I will be buying another stock one soon from someone here and plan to cut 1.25" off the top.

2.  Length the bike from my helmet to the windscreen seems like 5 miles or so as where other bikes I have owned this is not a factor.

My plan to be in control in slow speed turns based on your help: Back brake, half cheek, practice and practice in the box are on my notes to try next time we get out along with checking tire and back suspension pressures.    Thanks

Keep in mind.....old sometimes does not mean feeble, stupid and gasping for ones last breath.....what it can mean is knowing when to ask when a problem can not be solved.....and by doing so admitting one does not know everything about everything and everyone. 

Mike 

The bit about using the rear brake with throttle may be counter-intuitive, but it really works.  It allows more control.  I have never tried the 'sneaky cheek' method, cause I like to be centered on the bike, but could work if you practice it.  I played around in a large empty parking lot at slow speed getting comfortable grinding the floor boards getting comfortable with the amount of lean the bike was capable of.  I come from a dirt bike background so many of the things that became habitual in the dirt became ingrained parts of my riding styles.  On other bikes like my 02 TC, I use almost exclusively the front brake, where on the Vision I use both with a little more emphasis on the front, but seeing that actuating the rear brake hard also actuates the front I have b ecome more comfortable using the rear brake.  the only time i used the rear brake on my dirt bikes was when i needed the rear end to swiing out.  Someone else also said something about the different feelings of the bike at different rear shock pressures.  You might try that as well, adding more or bleeding some to see what the feel does.

Good luck Bubba.

ETC is a Honda 750 4 roller, 2d ETC is a Virago 750, and the other ETC is an 1100 Virago.  I also have a couple of vintage dirt bikes. 

wroman - 2010-09-23 5:51 AM It helps if you pay attention to where you want to go not where you are going.

This is another thing that cannot be emphasized enough.  If you are looking down instead of looking where the bike needs to go, you will go down.  Another dirt bike adage.  When on a whoop or a jump on the dirt bike, you never look down, you look where you will be landing cause if you look where you want to land, all other things being correct, you will land correctly.  Same thing on a bike.  Friend of mine was riding on I10 and in the lane ahead he spied a concrete block.  He fixated on the block instead of where he needed to be going to get around the block.  He said it was like the block drew him into it.  Instead it was target fixation and he looked himself right into the block.  Try it some time with a line or something in the road, and see if you can avoid it while looking directly at the object.

My issue is riding two up..........and

a. at a stop light taking a tight right or left turn.....the Vision wants to go wide.

b. same in very tight, slow up hill turns

Could be just me, could be wrong, but I dont think "target fixation" is possible or my issue at 3mph to say 8mph when circumstances are a and b above.

Over the weekend I was able to ride the bike solo for 400 or so miles at the PA Vision Rally........... and applying the rear brake as suggested in conditions a and b above....problem solved.  It was amazing and frankly I would have never figured that to be an answer....esp....given the bikes I have ridden before 

Next up is to give the rear brake a go two up......very high hopes.........thanks to all the suggestions here........

Mike

pollolittle - 2010-09-28 9:24 AM Ahhhh, the small things in life that we figure out and makes a light bulb go off, now if someone could enlighten me with a light bulb about women. UHHH, Nevermind, I prefer to leave the light switch off and just go to the shop. Good to hear you got it figured out. I too was quite amazed, at applying the rear brake would slow that big beast down and make it controllable. Now, once you got that figured out, I want you to do the 20 ft box without the brake and treat it like a big sport bike with attitude, because to do it like that you really have to commit and shift weight and put a metal knee pad on and work that baby like your a twentysomethingstudmuffin.

Credit where credit is due.  "We" never figured it out...........you and other guys did and told me what to do....then I tried it .....and it worked great and solved running wide in slow tight turns by using rear brake

Next time out will be the box deal.  No prediction for this but my confidence is heading upward after the rear brake in slow tight turns to avoid running wide worked out.  I used to ride trails bikes wayyyyyyyyyy back when for fun and near full lock turns were something that were easy....but ofcourse these bikes weighted 190lbs.........not 890lbs.

Updates to follow......and thx x 1000

Mike