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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | kevinx - 2012-10-30 7:14 AM
Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 1:07 AM
kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D )
Not gonna happen with a 4 valve motor, unless you up the compression.
Hmmm... Ok. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 12:07 AM
kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D )
I don't understand that kind of thinking. Why do you want to limit the powerband to just the lower end? Why not have it all, top and bottom?
Here are three dyno charts. Torque, multiplied by gearing, applied to the wheel, is what accelerates the bike. The longer the torque lasts in each gear, the higher the average acceleration force, and the faster you accelerate. Shifting to the next higher gear reduces the applied torque at the wheel, so a bike with a narrower powerband is at a disadvantage in a drag race.
The first is a 2012 Harley 103 inch FLD that has had cams, pipes, and tuner added. The chart is in STD and the numbers are about 4% high when compared to the next two, which are in SAE. You have to compare apples to apples, not oranges. So, the 95.71 HP and 109.70 TQ translates to 91.88 HP and 105.31 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2800 RPM to 4800 RPM spanning 2000 RPM.
The second is a GL1800 Goldwing (112 inch) which produced 97.67 HP and 103.69 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2700 RPM to 5200 RPM spanning 2500 RPM.
The third is a Lloydz cammed, stock exhaust Vision. It produced 110.42 HP and 106.53 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2700 RPM to 5700 RPM, spanning 3000 RPM.
You want to guess which bike is the fastest down the quarter mile and the fastest around slow moving traffic?
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-30 12:15 PM
(230910d1328615777-103-stock-motor-dyno-results-dyno-2012-fld.jpg)
(03_GL1800.jpg)
(Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg)
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 230910d1328615777-103-stock-motor-dyno-results-dyno-2012-fld.jpg (92KB - 2 downloads)
03_GL1800.jpg (84KB - 2 downloads)
Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg (26KB - 4 downloads)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | I guess I figured there was only 1 range I could get hp/torque at. Either high, middle or low rpms. I wasn't aware I could get torque in all 3 areas. My goal over the winter will be intake(s), tuner and pipes. Next year (depending on whether or not I really care about my warranty), will be cams.
I'd like more power straight off of idle (or as close to it as I can get with a Victory v twin). Mid range would be my next choice. I don't care about racing but being able to roll on the throttle from riding speeds (maybe 35-65?) and having chest pounding torque would be nice. Around here, I ride on a lot of 2 lanes so being able to pass without worry is definitely an added plus.
I'm not a mechanic by any means so I don't really understand all of the hows and whys. I read what I can but it doesn't tend to sink in. :shrug: I'll end up with whatever Lloyd or Rylan tell me to add. What I've got so far is filters, tuner, pipes and cams will flatten my eye balls. And all for less than about $1500 installed. That may very well be enough for me. I'm coming off a bike that had at least 25 hp less than what I have now (and pretty close to the same weight) so in bone stock form, the Vision is impressive already.
I appreciate the schooling. Knowledge is power. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Chris, compare the chart for the Goldwing, which has had the reputation for being a torque monster in all RPM ranges ever since the GL1800 came out (deservedly so), to the chart for the Lloydz equipped Vision. The Vision matches the GL1800's power all the way up from the bottom, but then surpasses it at the high end (4 valve hemi motor). There are some gearing differences between the two,with the Goldwing being geared about 4 1/2% lower in 1st gear than the Vision. This makes it "feel stronger" in 1st gear than the Vision when the power is actually about the same. You can accomplish exactly the same thing by putting an underdrive pulley on your Vision, that is, it will "feel like" it has more low end power.
Unless you are thinking of changing pipes to get a different sound, the money you would spend on pipes would be far better spent on Lloydz VM1-DR cams. The chart I posted is with stock exhaust. It isn't restrictive--just quiet. Aftermarket exhausts cost a lot of money and do little to nothing for performance on stock block motors, overall (compare the top and bottom numbers). The best bang for the dollar is cams, intake, VFCIII, and Lloydz ECU. Lots of people also use a PCV instead of the VFCIII. I decided on the VFCIII because it does the job just fine on a stock block motor and the difference in price between it and the PCV with Autotune paid for Lloydz ECU. Lloydz ECU has optimized timing curves, which aids the low end torque, and a 6400 RPM rev-limiter in all 6 gears. Once you get the cams,intake, and fuel control, you will quickly realize that you need a raised rev-limiter because the stock 5500 RPM comes up so quickly (5250 in 1st gear) and the bike is still pulling hard when you hit it, unlike the stock setup which is finished pulling before 5000 RPM.
I spent $1295 for cams, intake, VFCIII, Lloydz ECU, and labor, keeping my stock exhaust. The bike looks and sounds 100% stock and runs 12.60s @ 105 MPH and tops out well over 130 MPH and gets about the same, or better fuel economy than before. If I'm riding with GL1800s and we come up on a slow truck on a two lane road we need to pass, and we're both in 5th gear, and we both pull out to pass at the same time with the throttles wide open, I can pass the Goldwing and the truck at the same time. How's that for low, mid , and top end power? The Harley has very similar peak torque numbers to both the Goldwing and the Vision, (they're all within a couple of points of each other) but it's power is "all down low" and it gets left in the dust. The Vision's low end is the equal of the Goldwing, but it has a better mid-range and top end.
It's been a few years and the prices have increased a bit, but you should be able to duplicate the chart for the Vision for $1500 including the labor.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-31 10:25 AM
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Iron Butt
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Peru, IN | Thanks, Ronnie. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'll add pipes only to change the sound. I don't want anything really loud but something more then the stock sewing machine sound. |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | You're welcome Chris. Definitely follow Lloyd's, or Rylan's, or Kevin's advice. They've got this stuff down pat. If you think you will ever go to the cams and Lloydz ECU, just skip right over any of the Stage 1 or 2 stuff.
BTW, I'm running the stock Victory front filter with Lloydz top filter. The top filter adds plenty of breathing.
You're about 8 hours from Rylan. He has been known to do house calls, especially if he can get a few bikes together in one place at the same time to work on. Alternatively, you could ride over to his place, spend the night in town, get to his shop early the next day and be home before dark with a 25% to 30% power increase in your bike. I highly recommend Rylan's work. The Lloydz ECU is a plug and play that you can easily do yourself, but you'll need to send yours to Lloyd to be reprogrammed, and it takes about two weeks to get it back. Maybe something to do when the snow is deep. You can do it before or after the cams, but you won't get much benefit from the ECU with the stock cams, since they start falling off after 4500 RPM and are done by 5000 RPM. Doing it before the cams won't hurt anything and you literally won't believe the power difference after you get the cams to go with it. Whole new bike.
Ronnie |
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Tourer
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| Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 8:39 PM Thanks, Ronnie. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'll add pipes only to change the sound. I don't want anything really loud but something more then the stock sewing machine sound. Do a search on this site for 'thrush mod' myself and many others have inexpensively added a nice throaty sound to the Visions by adding Hush Thrush or cherry bomb exhausts to our bikes. Took me about 4 hours of labor and about $150 for all the parts. O'Reilly autoparts has the muffler, muffler tips etc that you will need. |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money.
I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM
XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done
I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | rdbudd - 2012-10-31 8:46 PM If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money. I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8. Ronnie Do you reflash for stage 1? |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | varyder - 2012-10-31 10:27 PM
rdbudd - 2012-10-31 8:46 PM If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money. I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8. Ronnie ?Do you reflash for stage 1?
I think most people do. I also think that the performance increase comes from the reflash or the addition of a fuel controller and not the muffler modification or replacement. Lloyd has demonstrated that the stock mufflers flow good enough to support his 116 motors that produce 135 horsepower at the wheel. Why would the mufflers be restrictive at only 110-115 horsepower on a 106? The bikes come from the factory in a lean EPA tune. Reflashing or adding a fuel controller corrects that a little bit and the result is better performance. The mufflers have nothing to do with it. If they were restrictive, changing them would have an effect, but they aren't restrictive--just quiet. Real performance increases on the Victory 106 come from better fuel/timing management and increased air intake. The stock cams are designed to limit cylinder filling above 4500 RPM, so changing them to a design like Lloydz VM1 that continues to fill the cylinders at a higher RPM pays big dividends in performance increases if they are accompanied by proper fuel and timing management.
That Vision dyno chart I posted (from Lloydz website) was run with stock exhaust, VM1 cams, top filter, VFCIII, and ECU reprogram. That's the setup I have. I haven't had my bike on a dyno, but I have tested it in the real world, on the dragstrip, and my timeslips confirm what that chart shows.
A factory Stage 1 reflash costs what, $200, and gets you a small improvement, retaining the stock rev-limits, the stock timing curve, and top speed limiter. Lloydz ECU reprogram costs $225 and gets you optimized timing, better fuel mapping, and 6400 RPM in all 6 gears. It's your money.
Ronnie
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Cruiser
Posts: 59
Marietta, GA | I don't see the ECU reprogramming on Lloydz site. What's it listed under? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | It's a service, not a physical product. Give them a call. You send them your ECU to be reprogrammed. They used to do it on an exchange basis, but don't any longer. Now, you get your original ECU back.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM
kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM
XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done
I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much??
If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve
Edited by kevinx 2012-11-01 4:53 PM
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COOK1-1.pdf (25KB - 22 downloads)
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM
If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve
Wow! You're not kidding.
Ronnie
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Visionary
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Thanks Kevin......... |
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. Depends on what else you have done I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve Kevin, What else has been done to tht bik with the 110 build??? |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | dr_reloader - 2012-11-01 7:49 PM
kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. Depends on what else you have done I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve ?Kevin,? What else has been done to tht bik with the 110 build???
Dual air filters, and scorpion clutch plus big honker exhaust |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I'm thinking of putting my stock Vision on the dyno. Anything special I should before I go? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2012-11-01 10:19 PM
I'm thinking of putting my stock Vision on the dyno. Anything special I should before I go?
I'm not terribly excited about putting a 100K plus machine of any type on a dyno |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | KevinX, I was hoping you chime in, and it confirms some of my suspicions as to whether I should do this or not. The motor is still running strong and my curiosity was peaking as to what the old gal was doing. However, I know that it is a hard run on a dyno, however, I still ride 'er hard (in my mind) and have no problem pushing the bike. It does not smoke, and it feels strong as ever. I've never had a bike on a dyno, so what are we talking about to get good numbers. I suspect running hard through all of the gears and then holding for about a minute to two at the top rpm, at least 2 or three times.
Edited by varyder 2012-11-02 9:33 AM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Generally speaking a bike is run in 5th gear for three pass's at WOT. Problem is the tire is not loaded in the same way that the road does, and thin rod bearings can loose their oil film. I would hate to see something like that happen to you, and the bike fail shortly after the runs were made |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Got it, I totally understand. I'm taking this to 200,000, I hope, and maybe I'll dyno it then, or maybe after I get my Indian. I've got to know.....
(5th, WOT, around 6,000 ain't it?) |
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Victory vs HD Performance
