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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 2:42 PM
kevinx - 2012-03-07 11:22 AM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM
OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me.
First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not.
For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments
The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems.
Great job of avoiding the question. Not one solution in your answer will automatically tune for all the changes the PC5 WITH Autotune will accomplish. You did not give a real answer AND you keep referring to the PC 5 WITHOUT the Autotune Module. With the AUTOTUNE module the stock ECU does not have the exhaust sensors and cannot do the things you mention. And if you use the PC 5 alone, you still don't have the stock exhaust sensors to make adjustments to the AFR as they should be disconnected. Please, this discussion started and still is about the PC 5 used WITH the Autotune module. You mention modules that cannot even remove fuel and do not auto adjust and you think that's better? REALLY?
I think I'm over this discussion. As far as I am concerned there is NO better solution out there than the PC5 WITH Autotune. If ANYONE (That includes you Kevin) knows of a better system that does everything the PC5 WITH Autotune does for the same or less money, please let me know.
I answered your question completely. The bikes stock ECU is what alters fueling for elevation and climate. The PCV at best adjusts fuel for what happened 100 feet ago through it's wide band sensors. It itself does not compensate for either elevation or climate....With or without auto tune.
The load based systems I mention use the ECM to make those compensations just the same, but look at pulse width, and dynamic response for real time change. As for not subtracting fuel. How many negative cells do you have in your map?? Only reason to subtract fuel is because you did something wrong. If you knew a fraction of what you think you know. You would understand that o2 sensors are for FINE adjustment only[after the fact], and that since the auto tune is way to slow to keep up with an injector living in the world of miliseconds. It can NOT fine tune, and still bases it's world on RPM derived maps. Unlike load based systems
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-07 4:10 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| I'm waiting for Cobra to release their Power Pro CVT for our bikes! I hear very good things about that unit!
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Iron Butt
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| Turk, who put your cams in? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kris1956 - 2012-03-08 7:47 AM
Turk, who put your cams in?
Rylan (while working with Lloyd) did it while I was at the AVR last year. I was fully planning to just pick them up and take them home and do it myself (as I've done several times on the steel framed bikes), but I had the time, and so did they, so I figured, what the hell, I can ride it home with the cams installed. Rylan is one of the few people I fully entrust my bike to (other than myself, Lloyd, and KevinX).
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Iron Butt
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| I had hoped to make the AVR this year but it doesn't look good. No one in my area knows Lloyds or Kevins method of installing cams. I may just install them myself.
Edited by kris1956 2012-03-08 8:32 AM
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | NO Kevin, I do0n't think you have answered my question. Are you telling me that adding a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will make all the adjustments to my fuel system automatically when I make engine mods, etc. etc.? hen why doesn't everyone get a fuel adder and leave the rest to the stock ECU? The PC 5 with Autotune does make automatic adjustments and I don't have to spend more time and money to have a good running machine every time there is a change in equipment etc. That's the biggest difference that I see in the 2 set ups. I kept asking you to supply an alternative that automatically adjusts and I am still waiting. The differences you describe are so minute they will never be noticed by the user. As you said in an earlier post, this is a Vision not a jet fighter. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 10:08 AM
NO Kevin, I do0n't think you have answered my question. Are you telling me that adding a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will make all the adjustments to my fuel system automatically when I make engine mods, etc. etc.? hen why doesn't everyone get a fuel adder and leave the rest to the stock ECU? The PC 5 with Autotune does make automatic adjustments and I don't have to spend more time and money to have a good running machine every time there is a change in equipment etc. That's the biggest difference that I see in the 2 set ups. I kept asking you to supply an alternative that automatically adjusts and I am still waiting. The differences you describe are so minute they will never be noticed by the user. As you said in an earlier post, this is a Vision not a jet fighter.
What you do not know is amazing; for someone that is so adament to show it |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 12:08 PM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 1:05 PM
I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
....AND YOU DON'T READ MUCH EITHER*LOL* I have said time and again that the PCV has it's place, but that it is over-rated. Not that it is crap. I NEVER said anything about converting to cards, and if you think there is jets in an injected bike......It just shows how pointless any conversation with you is; about anything more high tech then a ball peen hammer |
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Iron Butt
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| I want to see these jets in your Vision too. |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | kevinx - 2012-03-08 1:41 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 1:05 PM
I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
.... if you think there is jets in an injected bike......It just shows how pointless any conversation with you is; about anything more high tech then a ball peen hammer
Kevin, please read the line where it CLEARLY states "convert to carbs" which was of course said toungue in cheek. Perhaps you need that ball peen hammer you speak of to comprehend what you read. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 1:11 PM
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | Knuckleheads R Us, It was going good and I was getting an education on the different types of controllers. I'm still a little fuzzy on the RPM vs Load, but I'm close.
There has been good explanation of both types and since I don't drag race, the PC5 would not be a good fit for my normal run of the mill commute. The VFC would seem to be a better fit, or the other Load based items.
I have followed along quite nicely as both sides have been explained, I really enjoy the techie side of it and not just the propaganda, advertisement, marketing side of it.
Now, to my point, MaddMax2u, from what I read above KevinX explained both types of electronic gizmos, quite well for a novice. You seem to be arguing a different point based on your understanding of it, which I read as you are either being informed incorrectly or have a different take on the way these items work. He has also pointed out the OTHER Options available to you or us. If I was in the market according to this discussion, I would not be getting the PC5 cause I don't drag race, but I would get the Load Based option.
This is based on merely a perception of a conversation gone awry. However, I do know that sometimes what the Marketer or Advertiser tells you ain't quite what it does.
And if you feel the need there are probably some old school guys who would love to drop a carburetor on the bike, well, cause it just makes sense.
When ever you guys are done with the ball peen hammer, let me know, I could use another one. Otherwise, simmer down and see if you can't come to an agreement on the way it works, maybe not! Jackwagons! |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 1:33 PM
What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be?
For Victory models, there are no other choices in add on fuel controllers except for the Power Commander IIIusb and V that will subtract fuel. A much more expensive option would be to go with a replacement fully programmable ECM, but then you must configure all sorts of parameters. Much more complicated, but that would be the best option for the racer. Not sure why drag racing and the PC-V were singled out together, as that's not really it's strong suit given that it's more reactive than proactive (albeit in fractions of a second).... The PC-V IS an excellent option for the sport touring, cruiser, and touring crowd given that it quickly arrives at the target AFR's. |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | Confused again, guess I'll just stick with the Superior Stock ECM, gives me good power and fuel mileage, I just ride! |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 2:33 PM
What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be?
Good question, and Turk gave the right answer, but as I said earlier. The only reason that you would be subtracting fuel from a Vision or X bike is because you were either running way to much cam for the cr[495,460] or you gutted your mufflers completely, and no longer have any exhaust velocity. Either way you would be installing a band aid on a self inflicted wound.
@Max....You mean where it clearly states "Convert to CARDS"?? I just figured you were referring to re-flash cards. Not my fault you can't proof read
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-08 2:26 PM
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Iron Butt
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| Kevin, I thought the same thing. I've been the automobile business all my life and that was my first thought. |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | Kevin, use your ball peen hammer on the left side of your head this time. Your using it way too much on the right side of your head.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 4:14 PM
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Iron Butt
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Northeast Ohio | I have been watching this thread closely as I have cams, PC-V and AutoTune in my possession and am just waiting for installation. My 2008 had cams, VFC3 and was tuned by Lloyd Greer. It ran well in Florida, but was blowing black smoke like a tractor pull event when I got back to Ohio. This time, I decided to go with the PC-V this time as I wanted better control and more automatic adjustability over the bike than I had in the past. Now I am more confused than ever. Reading DynoJet's website (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx) it states that it "adjusts the fuel map while riding." Are we saying you have to commit the tuning map to the base map version in order for this to happen?
Another paragraph states "The Auto Tune kit can be configured to run and correct at all times or by using the "map switch port" on the PCV. You can set it up so that you can switch back and forth between the tuning modes and the base map settings. You can also configure the Auto Tune kit to wait until the bike is at a certain operating temperature before beginning to make adjustments."
I would love to keep this conversation going to better understand the truth.
Edited by ScoreBo 2012-03-08 4:28 PM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 5:11 PM
Kevin, use your ball peen hammer on the left side of your head this time. Your using it way too much on the right side of your head.
So you can't proof read, and it's my fault??? Wow......You didn't per-chance go to FSU did you??
EDIT: BTW Flash. Read my sig. It has been that way for quite a long time, and you might wish to take it to heart
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-08 4:47 PM
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Iron Butt
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| I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion. |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | Aw Kevin, it's ok. I won't pick on you anymore.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 6:32 PM
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | kris1956 - 2012-03-08 4:48 PM
I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion.
i also think 1 or 2 also sale "another" fuel controller as well, so...... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 7:31 PM
Aw Kevin, it's ok. I won't pick on you anymore.
If making yourself look like a fool. Is what you call picking on me, You were doing a great job. Don't stop now. I'm still waiting for you to explode in a blinding flash......Flash |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 7:34 PM
kris1956 - 2012-03-08 4:48 PM
I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion.
i also think 1 or 2 also sale "another" fuel controller as well, so......
Funny I spoke of pretty much all of the available plug and play options, and except for my bias for the simpler load based units. I don't believe I made any attempts to sell any particular controller. Just an honest opinion based on setting up hundreds of bikes. So I'm not understanding where this or the other comment about making money come from. |
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PCV with Autotune ALERT
