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running regular gas
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Prime Power
Posted 2009-08-30 2:18 PM (#42841 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 256
I don't know where you get that. If it calls for 91 octane and you run 87 it will predetonate and there will be power losses and damage can be done. Running what it is tuned for will not detract from performance. Where do you come up with this?
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Breaker
Posted 2009-08-30 2:19 PM (#42842 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Iron Butt

Posts: 732
Western WA
I switched to the lower octane to cure a soot/fouling issue with my plugs.

If it ain't broke, and you're happy, don't fix it.

I think I've found that I need to run 1 tank of mid (89) to 3 tanks of low (87). The experiment continues.

For now the bikes out of commission until they replace an ignition coil.
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varyder
Posted 2009-08-30 2:25 PM (#42843 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA
That's why I'm going back to premium. Experiment done!
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-30 2:53 PM (#42844 - in reply to #42841)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
Prime Power - 2009-08-30 2:18 PM

I don't know where you get that. If it calls for 91 octane and you run 87 it will predetonate and there will be power losses and damage can be done. Running what it is tuned for will not detract from performance. Where do you come up with this?


It is not tuned for 91. That number is a fail safe that takes into account extreme temps[100+], and very dense air. If the bikes were tuned for it in say Washington state. You could not even ride it in Arizona. For most people that never see those temps the higher octane reduces overall performance. I have several customer here in Florida that have run 87-89 since day one with no pinging issues. They have not coked up their valves, or the tops of the pistons, and thus they have not created the hot spots that cause pinging. I myself ran 89 for the whole time my bike had the stock 9.8:1 ratio, and only bumped to premium when I went to 11.0. Now with 11.0 I NEED to run the increased octane.

The fuel companies spent a lot of time, and money lying to the American public about what octane is, and what it does. Back in the early 90's the FTC finally stopped them from all of the false advertising. They still try, and from what I usually see in this type of thread; do pull the wool over peoples eyes.
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Prime Power
Posted 2009-08-30 3:05 PM (#42845 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 256
That makes since and I stated I am not familiar with this bike yet. I agree there is a lot of false information and people using the wrong type of gas. 91 when it doesnt call for it and vice versa.
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Prime Power
Posted 2009-08-30 3:30 PM (#42846 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 256
I just moved to Virginia, temps a little lower than Florida and a little lower humidity. Might go 89 myself. I don't see how the CLFI system doesn't compensate though for different climates?
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-30 3:53 PM (#42847 - in reply to #42846)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
Prime Power - 2009-08-30 3:30 PM

I just moved to Virginia, temps a little lower than Florida and a little lower humidity. Might go 89 myself. I don't see how the CLFI system doesn't compensate though for different climates?


No knock sensor; so they run a fixed timing curve.Not the best curve; the curve that has the best comprimise. No active BARO sensor so the correction for that is only on start up. Narrow band o2 so the correction for fuel is hit, or miss in a big zone. At best the FI system used on these bikes is still below par when compared to the systems used by auto makers in the EARLY 80's. With all the technology available it boggles my mind that we have such garbage systems to work with. Had Vic used the available tech these bikes would EASILY make 10% better power, and mileage; with many fewer drivability issues
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Prime Power
Posted 2009-08-30 4:09 PM (#42848 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 256
Im coming to the vision from a bmw lt so night and day in a lot of aspects. good info. thanks
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wroman
Posted 2009-08-30 4:58 PM (#42853 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Tourer

Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium
I would like to add again that I have the VFC III fuel controler so I am not running the stock lean fuel ratio's. Techlusion who builds the box for Lloyd's also make's one for the BMW RT's but the Motronic system on the K model BMW bike's is similar to there cars and a tad more advanced than the system on the Victory. KevinX is right about the build of the electronics but as far as I can see they are durable and with separate throttle bodys for each cyl a far step above H-D as far as performance. It would be nice to access the programing though but ar far as how the bike run with minimal tinkering it is probably better to work around what we have.
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VaParadox
Posted 2009-08-30 5:04 PM (#42854 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Iron Butt

Posts: 1158
Richmond, Virginia
Ive only run both my Victory's with mid grade, never high grade, consequently my dealer loves borrowing my Vision to drive. He states that it is the smoothest Vision he has ever driven and sold. Has got to do with mid grade and Amsoil full synthetic oil. 100% satisfied no noise, pings, dings, rattles, cries, belches or farts.
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-30 5:14 PM (#42856 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
This is NOT an oil thread. Please do not ruin a good discussion
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TopFuel
Posted 2009-08-30 7:32 PM (#42862 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 79
Memphis,Tn.
Hmmm. No knock sensor on an engine with a low tech fuel system.

I'll continue to use a TOP TIER rated gasoline. Premium only. Too many variables in weather and traffic. I don't need the added mental calculations while riding of cylinder temps, preignition, detonation, cylinder pressure, Reid vapor pressure, deposit control, alcohol percentage or if my gas cap is leaking.
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varyder
Posted 2009-08-30 7:34 PM (#42863 - in reply to #42862)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA
TopFuel - 2009-08-30 8:32 PM

Hmmm. No knock sensor on an engine with a low tech fuel system.

I'll continue to use a TOP TIER rated gasoline. Premium only. Too many variables in weather and traffic. I don't need the added mental calculations while riding of cylinder temps, preignition, detonation, cylinder pressure, Reid vapor pressure, deposit control, alcohol percentage or if my gas cap is leaking.


+1
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VisionTex
Posted 2009-08-30 7:38 PM (#42864 - in reply to #42856)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx.
During my ride through Colorado this summer my Vision did not want to idle very well on the high octane gas. It even died once at a stop sign. It ran fine except at idle. By chance I had to use a low octane gas, I think 85, on that tank full the bike idled fine. So I continued to use lower octane gas while at high altitudes. You guys in Colorado, do you see that with your Visions?
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-30 7:56 PM (#42868 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
never mind

Edited by kevinx 2009-08-30 7:59 PM
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Side Car
Posted 2009-08-30 9:20 PM (#42877 - in reply to #42838)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 44
Salt lake city Ut.
statement #1 Premium DOES NOT INCREASE PERFORMANCE PERIOD. Your R1 run in was situation, and not power

Statement#2It will not detract from performance, but may give yoyu drivability concerns like the dreaded ping. However using a higher octane WILL detract. Peak performance lives on the edge
Qouted (kevix)

I am sorry to say but put premium fuel in your victory 106 period as you all know you can get 93 octane in some of your states out here in the west we are lucky to see 91 octane in has to do with air density and in part altitude. Part of the detonation issue and the cooling effect of the fuel is the octane # Victory built a great motor for us to enjoy superior performance put the best pump gas you can in your Vision tour bike and enjoy the ride. If you are building a race bike see lloyd or come out to the salt flats and learn from the people who have paid the price of guessing.
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-30 10:25 PM (#42883 - in reply to #42877)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
Side Car - 2009-08-30 9:20 PM

statement #1 Premium DOES NOT INCREASE PERFORMANCE PERIOD. Your R1 run in was situation, and not power

Statement#2It will not detract from performance, but may give yoyu drivability concerns like the dreaded ping. However using a higher octane WILL detract. Peak performance lives on the edge
Qouted (kevix)

I am sorry to say but put premium fuel in your victory 106 period as you all know you can get 93 octane in some of your states out here in the west we are lucky to see 91 octane in has to do with air density and in part altitude. Part of the detonation issue and the cooling effect of the fuel is the octane # Victory built a great motor for us to enjoy superior performance put the best pump gas you can in your Vision tour bike and enjoy the ride. If you are building a race bike see lloyd or come out to the salt flats and learn from the people who have paid the price of guessing.


Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts.
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Side Car
Posted 2009-08-30 10:37 PM (#42884 - in reply to #42883)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 44
Salt lake city Ut.
are you saying that the o2 sensor will not tell the ecm to add fuel if the mixture burns lean.
ie higher octane slower burn cooler o2 /egt temps
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Side Car
Posted 2009-08-30 10:53 PM (#42885 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 44
Salt lake city Ut.
Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts

air density vrs compression ratio has everything to do with octane and its cooling effect.
Atltitude almost allways means less air density ie lower octane premium pump gas in availible higher altitude areas. ???
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varyder
Posted 2009-08-31 4:41 AM (#42895 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA
here's what i've learned:

1. run premium gas in my Bentley
2. if I got to parts of the country where premium is NOT available, run the highest they sell

simple for me...now I can get back to riding...
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-31 5:49 AM (#42896 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
Side Car - 2009-08-30 10:37 PM

are you saying that the o2 sensor will not tell the ecm to add fuel if the mixture burns lean.
ie higher octane slower burn cooler o2 /egt temps


No that is not what I am saying. You are confusing mixture with octane. A leaner mixture DOES effect combustion temp, and CAN increase the need for a higher octane. However as stated earlier the octane requirement stated by Vic is in a worst possible scenario.

You also might want to do a little reading on the subject, and you will find that octane does not change the burn rate. It raises the point at which a fuel will spontaneously ignite
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-31 5:58 AM (#42898 - in reply to #42885)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
Side Car - 2009-08-30 10:53 PM

Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts

air density vrs compression ratio has everything to do with octane and its cooling effect.
Atltitude almost allways means less air density ie lower octane premium pump gas in availible higher altitude areas. ???


That is not what you said. You stated that the octane was lowered by environment. Not that the NEED was lowered by environment...To which I agree. Again however you are still confusing mixture with volatility as to octanes effect on cyl temps. Unless of course you have to much octane. Then the incomplete combustion will lower temps, and engine performance
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varyder
Posted 2009-08-31 7:14 AM (#42907 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA
the life of a forum is debate but it is also a place where half truths, heresay and facts get intermingled. That for the most part causes confusion. I try to keep my one on one tech questions in personal conversation with a face to face tech. This has always worked for me and being mechanically declined and inept, though I've made a living at it for over 30 years, I look at the individual circumstance and resist making blanket statements to unwaring audiences.

inevitably someone will take something out of context and ruin their machine because of what I stated above. As a word of caution to any reader, lurker or otherwise, make sure any decision that you make is based off of hard evidence and not something you read in cyperspace.

this has been a free public service announcement... ride often, ride safe.

Edited by varyder 2009-08-31 7:15 AM
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kevinx
Posted 2009-08-31 7:53 AM (#42916 - in reply to #42907)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
varyder - 2009-08-31 7:14 AM

the life of a forum is debate but it is also a place where half truths, heresay and facts get intermingled. That for the most part causes confusion. I try to keep my one on one tech questions in personal conversation with a face to face tech. This has always worked for me and being mechanically declined and inept, though I've made a living at it for over 30 years, I look at the individual circumstance and resist making blanket statements to unwaring audiences.

inevitably someone will take something out of context and ruin their machine because of what I stated above. As a word of caution to any reader, lurker or otherwise, make sure any decision that you make is based off of hard evidence and not something you read in cyperspace.

this has been a free public service announcement... ride often, ride safe.



All of my comments can easily be substantiated with just a little research on the part of my reader.
I do not deal in hearsay, or half truths. I deal in facts, and personal experience. I have been a professional mechanic for over 25 years, and have had continuing education the entire time. I have raced, and built winning racing machines for numerous types of competitions. I research anything that interest me with a voracious appetite
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rlreed
Posted 2009-08-31 8:17 AM (#42921 - in reply to #42782)
Subject: Re: running regular gas


Cruiser

Posts: 212
Tavares, Fl
Check out this site for a simple straight forward explaination of regular vs premium.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2565/whats-the-difference-...
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