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Cruiser
Posts: 117
South of Houston Tx | When I first got my Vision back in June I read about this belt noise, seems like I read that most people were getting it somewhere around 2k. I actually fully expected to have to get it aligned at my 25k service but I now have 8700 on her and haven't heard a sound from the belt. I look at it like any other vehicle, all of them have problems, theres no such thing as "man made perfection". when I was a GM technician I can't count the times I told people "If man made it, it will break" in response to their query's about why their new vehicle is broken. The manufacturers all know this, thats why a dealership has a service department, they don't have them by choice, they do not make money in the the backend, and it's always been the unwanted stepchild of the business, so the manufacturer makes them have a service department if they want to sell their product. They do this because they know they are going to have issues with man made devices as complicated as a motor vehicle and they need to have competent professionals available to resolve these issues or else the frontend, where they do make money selling their products, is not going to make so much because people will buy where they can get service. Thats also why they give you a warranty so you can have these problems fixed without having to pay. the percentages of the vehicles of any make and model that do have a specific problem are very low, but with a network of dealers across the country the manufacturer can obtain and dissect data and in most cases their engineers can come up with a fix. If you have never had a problem with a vehicle before, and thats not all that unusual because like I said the percentages are low, then you may think that "this thing is piece of crap, my _____ never had these problems". Well I can assure you that maybe your _____ never had any but someone else's did. Furthermore I guess you could say that there are just way to many issues on your Vision to explain it away like this, but let me remind you that you bought a First Year Model and it always takes time to iron out all of the bugs, I personally have never bought a first year model before, but to me the Vision was to pretty not to buy it, so I will willingly put up with some issues. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Rainmaker, I agree we don't need to be nasty. Unfortunately for us "type" cannot reflect our attitudes, expressions, etc... I have said several times my bike has bugs, no biggy as all bikes do. Hell my service rep and I were laughing our butts off this morning over the windshield cracks (yep I missed the other three cracks, lol) because he just made a comment the other day about broken ws and warranty claims for his Yamaha Venture.
Folks get worked up and most times it isn't necessary...... but most often this occurs when communication breaks down. For example the belt issue we are talking about in this thread. Some folks had a simple one time alignment FIX the noise for them. Others have had an ongoing or routine trip to the dealer to have it readjusted. A fix would be preferable if you understand what I'm saying. I'm sure that my dealer will eventually end up replacing the pulleys and belts, probably just got a bad one that stretches too much. Same with the oil sending sensor that they already replaced but with one that is worse (a new one is on order). However based just on the replies from folks here the belt adjustment is an issue that Victory might be well served to address. If alignment is SO critical then perhaps a different configuration should be looked at by the engineers?
Hows that saying go "one hundred adda-boys are voided by one ah-crap."
If I was displeased with my Vision it would be GONE by now. I will NOT ride a problem or a bike I'm not comfortable with for any reason. What I reported earlier was a comment from a dealer friend as to why HE would not be carrying the line even though he sells polaris. Thats his take and the former Vic dealer basically told me the same thing. This may not be true, but it is a perception on the part of several dealership owners. What I would like to see as an owner is better communication with owners, whats in the works/pipeline, what concerns are being looked at etc...
Oh and I do apologize if I seem negative at times. As stated earlier it is hard to express with typed messages, but I can assure you I don't get mad, upset, or insulted on the internet (and most times real life, lol). Sometimes I summarize a conversation and the meanings can be unclear, feel free to ask for clarification anytime. I expect by 2010 the Vision will be the gold standard in custom touring bikes. |
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Tourer
Posts: 332
Dale, Indiana | I have only heard a belt noise on really hot humid days after I take my bike of my air-conditioned garage.
It seems the cooled metal sweats a little until it warms up to the outside temperature (usually takes about 5 miles).
I also wash the underside of my bike every time I give her a bath. This includes the pulley and the belt. After the bike dries I give her a bit of belt dressing on the belt.
I will also add my dealer did an outstanding job aliening my bike.
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | I'm in the middle of my 5000 mile trip and have noticed a couple of different issues with the belt noise. It is most noticeable when taking off in the morning and in cool weather, not much of that in the Houston area. Also after running through rain it goes away for a few days. So I think when washing the bike, give the belt a good cleaning....... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | I hope you guys and gals will forgive me for being obtuse, but isnt belt alignment directly related to proper wheel alignment?
If the belt is singing, then by logical extension, we must be wearing belts and tires prematurely and affecting the bikes directional stability because the singarm/subframe isnt in proper alignment with the engine pulley.
If the motorcycle needs re-alignment at very short intervals then there must be something other than the belt that is causing this; and if so, shouldnt we and the dealer consider this more of a safety issue than an nasty little annoyance?
Having witnessed a buddy lose a chain while passing a big rig in Virgina years ago (he survived because the wheel did not lock and he was able to pull to the right before he had Perterbilt tatooed across his shoulders) I admit to a certain heightened level of paranoia about final drives.
Help me out here if I'm missing something?
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Cruiser
Posts: 141
Cumming, GA | I told you that I would update you after my visit to the Victory Dealer here in Longmont, CO.
I would like to say that the service manager agreed to see me 1st thing this morning and the people at Extreme Performance were 1st Class.
They took my bike in as soon as the shop opened and had it ready to test ride in about 45 minutes. It turned out that the alignment was ok, but the belt tension was so loose that it had about 2" of play. I thought the shop in Rapid City adjusted it to specifications, but I guess not. Any how! The tension is now correct with about 1/2" of play and NO NOISE. The technician test rode it and let me test ride it to make sure that I was satisfied before they they gave it back to me.
I could detect no belt noise and rode it back to Ft Collins, about 30 miles, at about 70 - 90 mph without and noise.
Again, my thanks to the service staff at Longmont, CO. If you ever have a need when traveling through here, give them a call.
I love my Vision, my problems and all. I now have slightly less that 14k with about another 3-4k before I get home.
Thanks for all the input. Visionbob |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 11
Centerville , Utah | I dont believe its an alignment issue. I know of a couple of Visions that have belt noise. I think its belt tension. Its imparitive to keep proper tension on the belt. The belt is cooler in the AM. when the pulleys and belt heat up it goes away.
I know there is a issue just with the Visions,not any other model. The belts are much longer on the Vision. Anyone else experienced this?
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| bob, glad they got you hooked up.
kellyd. I'm not sure I understand what you are asking? There are several specialty bikes with long belts, this said I don't believe the Vision has a longer than normal belt (I could be wrong but don't think so). It is more exposed than on other bikes of this type that run belts.
It is alignment BUT tension affects the alignment. With proper tension the belt runs slightly inside of the outer rear pulley edge, but once it becomes loose it travels to the outside edge and rubs. Mine has bad shock bushings as well which I believe accounts for the additional need for adjustment.
I think the dealer went too tight the other day when adjusting. As I rode today and the temps increased, the noise produed by the belt (like a groannnn) could be heard very loudly. If I stopped and let everything cool it was good for about another 50 miles and then loud groan again.
Winter project but I'm going to look into a different belt/pulley setup if nothing new comes from Victory by then. Several customs like BigDog and Iron Horse may provide a sitable sub for the stock Vic stuff. |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | You should see the drive belt on a BRP Spyder. That looks to be twice as long than the Victory belt.
Just for information, the Vision belt span length is only 50 mm longer than other Victory's. Another issue in the mix that can cloud things is the fact that driven pulleys for VICTORY not just the Vison, are a different material from 2008 on. If any one is paying close attention, they will notice that a 2008 belt tension is a bit looser than previous years. This is due to the expansion rate of the driven pulley. The only reason i now this is due to the Polaris school that takes place each year for the techs. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| dwhite, so what you are suggesting is that as an earlier poster suggested (had his pulley chromed before pickup) that coating the pulley (with say chrome) might in fact eliminate the noise issue????
Another question since you are the resident tech: Does the amount of air in the rear shock impact on the belt tension? Say you have it adjusted and have 25lbs in the shock and then load the bike for a trip and/or passenger so you raise pressure to 45lbs, what affect on the belt??? |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | A coating on the pulley should have little to no effect on the noise. I hope no one thought I was suggesting coating a pulley or chroming it. That is purely an aesthetic choice of the owner. I have 14 years in the heavy equipment industry with the Railway and equipment used for maintaining track and roadbed. Much of my work has been with design and repair of OEM equipment and we used a lot cog belt and v-belt driven devices. Alignment and proper tension is of the utmost importance to maintain long life and low noise levels. This entails occasionally hitting the belt and pulley with a water hose or compressed air to free it of loose debris.
If the pulley is machined correctly, chroming should make no difference. I have seen chromed pulleys that had sever broaching marks where the teeth were cut for meshing with the belt. They did not make any noticeable noise.
Visions belt tension when using the deflection method is up to 20 mm (Almost 1 inch which is 25.4 mm) older Victory bikes have a deflection of 10 to 12 mm (1/2 inch). Not a lot of the dealerships use the sonic belt meter (Due to expense) which is a much more accurate method of adjusting belt tension. We just happen to have one at our shop because we carry the BRP Spyder. Brp only provides the sonic information for adjusting belt tension with no information on deflection. I have gotten to where I use the sonic meter on everything that comes in so I have a good feel for what really needs to be adjusted and what doesn't. Most of the victory manuals give +/- variance of 1Hz sometimes 2 Hz. I will go as far as allowing a 3Hz variance, but I will ask the customer if he has had any problems and also depending on the mileage of the bike if I do re adjust the belt.
Basically if you have no noise and as much as 1 inch of deflection with no problems of drive lash or slipping, leave it alone.
Air pressure of rear shock effecting the belt tension: Due to the relationship between the swing arm and the drive sprocket, there will be some minor effect on the tension. But as the manual notes, the belt tension should be checked with the bike in an upright position and with the rear wheel off the ground. This ensures the inspection is done in the same manner each time. The 20 mm allowance for deflection helps to compensate for the belt getting tighter as the bike is lowered back down to its normal state.
I know this is a bit long winded in type, would have taken a total of 5 minutes in person. I hope this helps some of you when looking over your bike. Noise from the belt will almost always be an alignment issue that causes the belt to track hard to one side of the pulley. The material from which the belt is made will have some effect along with how the teeth of the belt are cut to mesh with the drive and driven pulleys.
WHEW!!!!
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I thought the book stated 25/32 inch, which is right at 1/2 inch, for deflection with 10 pounds of pressure. I'll look in my book and see again what it states. Good explanation, though. That answers a lot of questions. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 293
Arkansas | 25/32 would be about 3/4 in. Po |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| dwhite, then if I understand you correctly there should NEVER be an occasion for the belt to track to either edge of the rear pulley??
Maybe I should explain my thoughts here. If the front pulley is say 3" wide (roughly) and the rear approximately 1.5" wide, and the rear wheel is adjusted to align the front and rear pulley so the belt runs dead center in the rear pulley, the belt should never walk to the outside or inside, after all the alignment has not changed only tension, and since the teeth of the pulley and belt must align for proper operation, the belt should always track true (if the rear wheel is aligned so as to keep the rear pulley in line with the front). So this being the case why would tension become so critical? |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | Tension will cause the belt to track against its will. Dirt, water other sources of debris can cause the belt to shift from one side or the other. It has to be free to move within reason. They are built with tight tolerances, but there are still variations in them. It can be difficult to summarize when there are reams of paper devoted just to the art and science of running belts for either drive systems or even conveyor systems.
A belt when running forward can track just to the edge or close to center, but the moment you reverse direction, it can move hard to the other side. Many times i have had to take a belt or chain and square the wheel with the frame first and then see where the belt or chain wants to naturally align. Sometimes i have to take a full turn or two on the adjustment screws to keep the belt or chain from riding hard to one side. A few instances a belt will wallow or shift from side to side as it is running in the same direction, but the movment should only be minor and within the pulleys edges. The more tension on the belt, the more sensitive it will be to debris or wear of the teeth on the belt, thus causing it to track quickly, whereas a looser belt is more forgiving.
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Hmmm, well perhaps Victory should consider a different style belt and pulley? I'm just speaking generally here but if you are using a lobe style belt tooth and it is this prone to alignment issues compounded by tension issues then perhaps a square tooth system would be better? I mean I have ownd a number of belt driven HD's, ridden many in excess of 100k miles and never except when wet does a belt make any noise. In addition they require little in the way of maintenance and from my experience rarely need adjustment between tire change. So given this isn't an issue for HD, but is for Victory would it not make sense to follow that lead? Again I'm just comparing what works (based on experience) and what doesn't as obvious by the large number of folks experiencing this belt issue. Does that make sense? and if not why would the square be less prone to the variables? |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | I would think one would look at how many bikes are actually out there with no problem versus the number of problems. We are but a small group of the total number of Vision owners out there. My bike has 3000 miles on it and has had nothing done to the belt. I get no noise that i can tell whether i am in the rain or dry. Belt technology is not new and has a very good foundation. Most everything has been designed or developed through the Gates company or similar manufacturer. As for HD, you had a good experience, but i also know of a few of my riding freinds over the years that had horrible trouble with their belt drives till it was properly taken care of by HD. I guess some people forget when HD first went to the belt, the belt teeth and driven pulley were more of a square style, this caused early belt failure among other issues. It took a couple of years for HD to finally get things changed. I know no one wants to hear it, but sometimes that is just the way it is. Sometimes there can be a tolerance between 4 or five parts that once they are all put together will be just enough to multilply into a true problem. If you have a product and it works great on 10,000 of them and you have 1,000 come back with a serious problem, you dont change the entire line up. You find the issue with the isolated cases and correct them. Just like with any other ISO 9000 process. You correct the issue and document it so it will hopefully not happen again. There are some V92C's from around the year 2000 that had to have the drive sprocket changed and the entire rear drive sprocket was removed, a rasied lip on the actual wheel around the bearing had to be ground off and a cushion drive installed. If there is an actual manufacturing problem, i have no doubt that Victory will correct it. The best thing as usual is for the people to make sure this information is being reported properly to Victory so they can decide if it is an assembly problem or a fabrication problem. By the way teach, i have to say i would like to run into you on a ride or rally somewhere and buy you a beer or soda. This discourse has helped remind me why i enjoy being a tech and also make me dust off some brain cells from my past experiences. At least when the day comes and someone brings in their Victory with a belt issue, i will be more than ready to attack the problem quickly and efficiently. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 55
Las Vegas, NV | Rainmaker: As for this comment from you "Cancel your order if you wish, but you'll miss out on the best bike you ever owned."
Don't worry about that happening. I spent over a year deciding on my next bike. It was between the Triumph Rocket Touring and the Vision. When riding them both, back to back, the decision to go with the Vision was easy (although the torque of the Rocket was intoxicating).
Right now, the Ness dealer down here is putting on all of my toys. I get to pick her up next week. Can't wait. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | jama - I appreciate the reality check, didn't have my handy watch calculator handy to figure that out (anybody else remember those).
Just so you know I can do very small amounts of math - 16/32, should be 1/2, still no calculator, but I think I got it right this time. Do I get another prize, a sticker, bubble gum, bodacioustwentysomethinghottie?
Straight from the book:
Belt Deflection
Deflection @ 10 lbs. force Street or Tour - 20.0mm +/- .5mm or 25/32 +/- 1/64"
that seems pretty tight tolerances. I don't think I calibrated my hand to be +/- 2 lbs of force and 1/64, owweeee. I guess I got fortunate.
As for this exchange of question and answer I have read and learned. Dwhite28, have another Dr. Pepper, you deserve it for entertaining me and the little school lesson, did you get the last one? As for a tech, not bad grammar, English must be your first language, Victory motors must be your Second.
ISO 9000, OHHHHH, big technical terms, kudos to ya, you sure your in the right job, too helpful and knowledgeable to be just a tech. Oh, you must be Senior Tech.
I do have a question, though. When I was re-aligning my belt, the directions are:
pg. 2.21
step 2. Turn axle adjuster nut on each side of swingarm to achieve: Belt tracking to inside of wheel sprocket flange during forward wheel rotation.
step 3. Rotate wheel backwards. If belt begins to move axially off inside flange of sprocket (toward the outside edge of sprocket), proceed to step 5.
Question - Never could get it to do this, if I understand correctly, when looking at it from the rear, looking forward behind the tire, the belt should be on the side of the pulley closest to the tire. When rolling forward. Then reverse rotation on tire and belt should track further away from tire. Never could figure that out. My belt was on the outside edge, farther away from tire, while rolling forward. (FYI, it is hard to keep up with bike on all fours and watch the belt while the bike is moving to get the tire to roll.) I managed to adjust it to move off of that edge toward the tire and once it started it went all the way over. Managed to get it stay just a little off of the outer edge of the pulley. But reverse direction and no movement. I have no more belt squeak, so it must be right, it just doesn't do what the book describes and there weren't pretty pictures or movies for me to watch. Dwhite28, have one more, just to wet the whistle. Thanks for the info.
Teach, not sure what happened but your ability to rearrange english words and choice of different style of typing in the last couple of posts, don't seem to be as b!t@hy. Applaud, golf clap, round of applause, continue till satisfied. I had asked you previously if you tried aligning your belt on another post, no update, so did you? Multiple others have posted the same info for you and still no update, still wondering? Many have been given the belt too loose, belt to tight, pulleys must be bad, scenario and the absolute final fix that I have heard so far has been alignment, wonder why more don't look at that. Final note, for you, good questions to keep the Dwhite28 on his school lesson. Teach, don't know if you drink a cold Dr. Pepper, but if so, get you one too. |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | Pollolittle, Thank for the comments. Over the years I have been a Laborer, lead man in an assembly environment, Field Service Tech/engineer, R & D Service, Project Manager, Service Manager and Sales Engineer. 14 years with www.kershawusa.com and 7 years with www.plasseramerican.com All Railroad related OEM manufacturers of heavy equipment. That is where I developed and acquired my ISO training along with project management. I have been tied up with writing technical manuals and operations manuals as well as putting together contracts for sales and leases of such equipment. I finally had enough and chucked my past life and went back to my hobby and passion. I turn wrenches on power sports craft. My big love is the Victory line. I do work on all Polaris and the BRP product line as well. As for watching the belt track, you did a great job. Sometimes that is all you can get the belt to do. Just barely get it to move off of the inside edge. You may want to invest in a good set of knee pads and gloves to keep up with the bike when it is rolling to watch that belt next time.  I have to be off to work now, time to hope on my Vision and run off to the Victory shop and see what comes in today. Yall be safe now, ya hear. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I'm looking for knee pads and gloves with wheels in them, they do it in shoes. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 102
Northeast Pennsylvania | I seriously dreamt my belt was squeeking last night. What a nightmare..rode this morning ..no problems. Took the trunk off yesterday.. and at the risk of sounding freaky... I like it both ways..like havin' 2 different girlfriends. LOL |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | dwhite28 - 2008-08-23 11:43 PM
You should see the drive belt on a BRP Spyder. That looks to be twice as long than the Victory belt.
Just for information, the Vision belt span length is only 50 mm longer than other Victory's. Another issue in the mix that can cloud things is the fact that driven pulleys for VICTORY not just the Vison, are a different material from 2008 on. If any one is paying close attention, they will notice that a 2008 belt tension is a bit looser than previous years. This is due to the expansion rate of the driven pulley. The only reason i now this is due to the Polaris school that takes place each year for the techs.
That interesting. As i do not have the belt noise (yet) i did notice my belt is alot more loose than my other belt driven motorcycle i have owned. I thought to myself yesterday "is this normal"? |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | Victory2002,
After reading this thread concerning belt noise, i am surprised you didn't have a nightmare of being chased by your drive belt. lol |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Po, yep I did have the belt aligned and I checked it myself 5 times now. Still only goes 500-1000 miles before the chatter begins again and the process needs repeated. I'm thinking I'll be forcing the dealer to install a new belt and pulleys when it goes in for the other stuff next week. With the miles I ride I can't be adjusting weekly. On a side note hehe figured I'd change a verb or two and try to sound a bit more friendly, lol..... Oh and Coffee works for me....
dwight, What you say makes sense except I'd point out that it isn't a "few" folks having belt issues but closer to half the folks that are. Even if we said a 1/4 or a third were having issues it should be more than enough fo Victory to be addressing an obvious issue. Something is wrong with the setup and I can't quite putmy finger on it yet but I will or I'll get rid of the Vision. |
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Belt Noise
