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New Bohemia, VA | O'Really auto parts. Any where from $7 to $9 a quart, with a 10% military discount. |
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Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2014-03-18 12:24 PM
A touch of clarity here on the early transmissions. My findings are based on tearing down many of them for upgrades. The most common cause of failure had nothing to do with lubrication. It has to do with insufficient anchoring, and support for the shift drum. The bearings for the ends of the drum were allowed to move in the locating hole which would cock the drum. The cocked drum would apply uneven pressure on the shift forks, and eventually they would wear thin, and allow the drum even more movement. Until the drum would break the heads off the bolts of the bearing retainers. Yes an oil jet was added to the upgrade, but that was there for cooling. I know for a fact I can destroy any 99-00 stock transmission in under 100 miles.
As for any oil being "better" that's an ambiguous call. Sure people can trot out the amsoil white sheet, but it has a couple of problems. First being that it is of course bias, and testing is done to show it's strengths. Second being it does not test in any engine that is close to a Victory's needs. Through my rather larger exposure. I personally will not use or recommend a full syn in any Victory. However I do run Amsoil in my wife's Caravan, and will be switching to their old car formula in my Bug. I'm not a hater....Just an observer. Now hopefully I will quit being drawn to oil threads
You and I agree on most things mechanical and on performance upgrades, what works and what doesn't, and I respect your opinions and observations. This is one area where we diverge.
In my mind's logic, the missed shifts and jumping out of gear that occurred as the miles accumulate on the oil are what lead to the shift drums getting cocked and applying uneven pressure, which wears the shift forks and leads to failure. The missed shifts and jumping out of gear is due to insufficient lubrication in the first place, which puts undue strain on the components, knocking them out of alignment. How else do you explain the fact that the transmissions shift fine with fresh Victory oil, but act up after 2000 miles on it? That is a very common pattern with the early (and not-so-early) Victory transmissions. How else do you explain the fact that my transmission never acts up on Amsoil, but always does on Victory oil? It's the same transmission.
One thing is for sure. The early Victory transmissions that missed shifts and jumped out of gear weren't "fixing themselves" every time they got fresh oil. They would be fine until the oil got some miles on it, then the troubles reappeared. Enough missed shifts and jumping out of gear, and permanent damage is inevitable. That requires new parts, and no oil will fix broken parts.
I didn't like the missed shifts and jumping out of gear, knowing that damage would be permanent if it were allowed to continue, and went looking for a solution BEFORE my transmission joined the ranks of damaged transmissions. In my case, a better oil was the solution.
There were many transmission failures, of which you have seen many. You've seen the aftermath of missed shifts and jumped gears, but you're doing an autopsy after the wreck. You get to see the results of the missed shifts and jumping out of gear and the damage that results from such abnormal operation. We only disagree on the root cause of the missed shifts and gears jumping out of engagement that result in damaged transmissions.
Actually, I suspect we're both right. The transmission design is less than optimum, requiring a severe duty oil for best performance and longevity. Using less than a severe duty oil exacerbates the design deficiency. Using a premium severe duty oil mitigates the design problem.
In my bike, the transmission always acts up with Victory oil in it, after about 2000 miles on the oil, then returns to normal operation with fresh Victory oil in it, for about 2000 miles, then back to missed shifts again. Does the transmission really "fix itself" with fresh oil? I don't think so. In my bike, the transmission never acts up, even with as much as 5000 miles on the Amsoil. The logic seems clear to me. Same bike, same transmission. The only difference is the lubrication quality provided by the two different oils. I consider the Amsoil to be preventative maintenance, and so far, I've been rewarded with an unbroken original transmission.
White sheets don't mean anything to me, and I've never touted them or referred to them in my arguments. That is a distracting argument that proves nothing. All that matters to me is what DOESN'T work and what DOES work, as proven by actual experience and performance. That's no different than my (and your) approach to performance modifications. It either works, or it doesn't, and only experience gained through trial and error can tell you which is which. I've tried Amsoil (after some other brands) and found it to be better at lubricating Victory transmissions than many other alternatives, including Victory oil. I'm convinced the early transmission failures were the result of poor design combined with insufficient lubrication. I'm just as convinced by my experiences that the design deficiencies can be mitigated, preventing damage, by using a superior lubricant.
Come on Spring! We need a ride.
Respectfully Sir,
Ronnie |
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Jasper, MO | varyder - 2014-03-18 2:20 PM
rdbudd - 2014-03-17 6:43 PM Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said in our previous discussions that the synthetic oil you had been using for a long time, when you experienced clutch issues, was the Rotella T6 full synthetic. I don't doubt your experiences, but the OP was asking about the 10W-40 AMSOIL.................. Two completely different products. You can't condemn all synthetics based on the results with one particular brand and weight. If you were using Rotella diesel truck oil, what does that have to do with Amsoil? Ronnie I wasn't using the diesel truck oil it was the MA rated oil.? When I surmised that maybe, just maybe the syn oil was the culprit and give the blend another try, I didn't want to take any chances to "see" what AMSOIL will do.? I've been using Lucas 10w40 motorcycle oil since and it seems to serve my purpose.? I've got 154,000 on the clock and even if I replaced the clutch today, I would stay with the blend.? The bike doesn't smoke or leak oil and it still has the chatter at oil changing time.? The main positive I found with the full syn was it would chatter until around 3,000 or later.? The blend, it will start to chatter around 1,800-2,000, giving me time to plan my oil change.? I'm like others, I'll use Amsoil in my car, at the present I am not using AMSOIL, but I would in a minute.? Unless Vic comes out with a recommendation for a full syn, I'll stick with a properly rated blend.? I have never used any additives in my bike oil, except when I had a sticking lifter.? I used MMO, but that was around the?40 or 50,000 mark.? It's not likely I'll do that again for any reason, but it seemed?to work at the time and caused no harm that I know of. Warranty is long gone, I've gotten more miles out of this bike with minimal issues so I figure from here on out, I'm on a free ride.
Rotella T6 is a diesel truck and heavy equipment oil. I've used Rotella for many years in my farm tractors. Until recently, it did not carry the JASO-MA rating at all. Even though it does now, the JASO-MA rating is NOT the end of the story. All it means is that is rated for SOME wet clutches, not ALL wet clutches. Wet clutches differ in materials, composition, and oil requirements, and there are other ratings the manufacturers require in addition to JASO-MA.
Case in point:
How many times have I posted that users of Amsoil should NOT use the 20W-50 MCV oil in their Victory motorcycle??? I've warned about that many times. It is formulated for the wet clutches used in Harley and Buell bikes, but not Victory and the Japanese bikes. Neither Victory, nor the Japanese brands, is listed in the applications. It also carries the JASO-MA rating. There is more to it than just that rating.
Another Amsoil product also carries the JASO-MA rating, but with the other requirements for Victory and the Japanese bikes. It is specifically recommended for Victory use. Victory, and the Japanese brands, are specifically listed in the applications. It is the 10W-40MCF.
You're just kidding yourself if all you look at is the JASO-MA rating. There's more to it than that, and the T6 didn't even have that rating for a long time anyway. Even though it now does, the total package is primarily geared to the heavy equipment industry wet clutch requirements, such as truck and power unit PTO clutches, not motorcycles.
Rotella T6 isn't Amsoil in any case. Apples and Oranges. This thread started out asking about a particular Amsoil product, not Rotella.
You probably surmised correctly that your clutch problem was with the Rotella T6. What the heck does that have to do with the AMSOIL 10W-40 MOTORCYCLE oil that the OP asked about??????
Personally, I'm not happy with an oil that "causes my engine to chatter after 1800 to 2000 miles, giving me time to plan my oil changes". YMMV. At least you've proved that frequent oil changes work too. That's something else I've always told people who ask about oil and Victorys. Change your oil at the first sign of abnormal operation, regardless of the brand of oil or the miles on it. Search the forums. I'm on record.
I do not use Amsoil in my cars. I do use it in my motorcycles, and different Amsoil products in my air-cooled power equipment, including an aircraft engine that gets me high above the trees. You don't F**K around with engines that get you high above the trees.  You use what works best.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-03-18 8:08 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Maybe I have a whacked out engine and I'll barely get 200,000 miles out of it. Even with Amsoil I would get a chatter after about 3,000 to 3,500 miles. That's with an oil that is suppose to be rated from 5000 to 10,000 miles. It costs a lot more with not much more benefit. I'm more than satisfied using what I'm using now and changing the oil at the intervals that I change it.
Edited by varyder 2014-03-18 8:44 PM
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San Antonio, TX | This video was made as a warning for oil discussions.........
After a talk about the benefits of using additives the user now adds garlic to the oil.
Ride Safe
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Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | varyder - 2014-03-18 8:43 PM
Maybe I have a whacked out engine and I'll barely get 200,000 miles out of it. Even with Amsoil I would get a chatter after about 3,000 to 3,500 miles. That's with an oil that is suppose to be rated from 5000 to 10,000 miles. It costs a lot more with not much more benefit. I'm more than satisfied using what I'm using now and changing the oil at the intervals that I change it.
You stated that your are paying between $7 and $9 per quart at O'Reilly, including a 10% military discount, for the Lucas oil you are now using. I'm paying $7.75 per quart for the Amsoil, using the Preferred Customer 25% discount. Even using YOUR stated figures of 1800-2000 miles for the Lucas and 3000-3500 miles for the Amsoil, I fail to see how the Amsoil "costs a lot more with not much more benefit". Using YOUR stated figures, you're effectively paying twice as much for the Lucas oil per mile. Even if you changed both at the SAME interval, the cost would be directly comparable. ??????????????? I just don't understand the logic here, or this "New Math". I'm still using the math I learned in the 1950s and 1960s. I guess it's outdated and 2+2 doesn't equal 4 anymore.
The important thing is that you are happy with what you are using. I'm happy with what I'm using. The OP has received a discussion revolving around Amsoil and Victory motorcycles in response to his question regarding the same. Everybody is happy.
Spring is nearly here, we can all get out on our bikes soon, and we can have another oil discussion to pass the Winter in a few months.
How are your roads over there? I'm getting some warmer weather now, pleasant enough to ride a distance, but my roads into town or to the highway are still a muddy mess. The snow is almost all gone, but the resulting mud remains. Our weather is alternating between 50-60 degree days and sub-freezing and ice and snow accumulation. We had another freezing rain, turning into snow, pass through here last Sunday.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-03-18 11:39 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | Even if I could get it Amsoil at your price, another 1,000 between oil change didn't impress me much.
Edited by varyder 2014-03-19 4:18 AM
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Iron Butt
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| I'm one of the unlucky ones that had clutch slippage with amsoil. Since going to 10-40 t5 I had none. Last 3 oil changes I have mixed rotella t 15-40 (3 parts) with T6 (5-40) (1 part) (yes, she'll says this is perfectly fine and their T oils are compatible and can be mixed). I think I have better shifting than with the T5. But that's just me. But I am going to give the Lucas a shot as I can't argue against V's results and mileage. |
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Iron Butt
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Broken Arrow, OK | I've used the Rotella 10W40 T5 semi syn for the last 25K miles too, Jeff.
Now sit down and take a breath because there's not a Jaso MA rating on the bottle so we're defying all laws of MC oil threads.
I'm expecting a total meltdown any day now. |
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Iron Butt
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| yup, no MA rating, but has all the proper qualities. I agree with you. According to many my bike should have blown up 70,000 miles ago. I must say I do like the mix better than the T5. I do 3 qts T 15-40 and 1.5 qts T6. But thats just me. I have a Old Norton that loves the high Zinc content of Rotella and since it works perfectly without slipping in the Vic (got slipping with Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T) I'm sticking with it. Not to mention the price is on point.
This email from Shell:
All of our Shell Rotella multi-grade viscosity products are
completely compatible with one another in any ratio. A 50/50 blend
of Shell Rotella T Triple Protection Oil SAE 15W-40 with our Shell
Rotella T6 Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40 would be perfectly acceptable.
You could then switch to Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend Oil SAE
10W-30 whenever you desire.
Thank you for your interest in Shell Lubricants!
Regards,
Edward A. Calcote
Staff Chemist
Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center |
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Iron Butt
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Broken Arrow, OK | I love the oil, bike runs great. Only issue I'm having is it's getting harder to find here.
Last 3 jugs I ordered on Amazon. I can sometimes find it at Tractor Supply.
Got all excited this morning when I went to Autozone, they had a display of the silver T5 jugs for 13.00 gal.....but only 10W30 weight, no 40 weight. |
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Iron Butt
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| same with me Okie...tractor supply is my only way of finding it, that why I looked into mixing and was happy to find it works. Now it only a quick stop at any wally world |
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Central Maryland | jeffmack - 2014-03-19 9:36 AM
yup, no MA rating, but has all the proper qualities. I agree with you. According to many my bike should have blown up 70,000 miles ago. I must say I do like the mix better than the T5. I do 3 qts T 15-40 and 1.5 qts T6. But thats just me. I have a Old Norton that loves the high Zinc content of Rotella and since it works perfectly without slipping in the Vic (got slipping with Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T) I'm sticking with it. Not to mention the price is on point.
Shell Rotella T6 DOES NOT have a high zinc (ZDDF) content anymore. It ruined my cams and tappets last year on my modified Rocket 3 motor. |
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New Bohemia, VA | to my understanding roteller sells a semi-syn blend 20w-40, but it seems to be only available in some locales, or am I loco? I might would go back to roteller if that be so... |
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Iron Butt
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Broken Arrow, OK | 10/30 and 10/40 in the semi synthetic silverT5 jugs is all you'll find Chris, but I like your loco attitude!! |
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New Bohemia, VA | golfer in florida I thought ran a 20, maybe it is a 10. But the main point is, I haven't seen the semi-blend here except 10/30. I doesn't want to run 10/30. |
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Jasper, MO | willtill - 2014-03-19 2:55 PM
jeffmack - 2014-03-19 9:36 AM
yup, no MA rating, but has all the proper qualities. I agree with you. According to many my bike should have blown up 70,000 miles ago. I must say I do like the mix better than the T5. I do 3 qts T 15-40 and 1.5 qts T6. But thats just me. I have a Old Norton that loves the high Zinc content of Rotella and since it works perfectly without slipping in the Vic (got slipping with Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T) I'm sticking with it. Not to mention the price is on point.
Shell Rotella T6 DOES NOT have a high zinc (ZDDF) content anymore. It ruined my cams and tappets last year on my modified Rocket 3 motor.
You are absolutely correct about that. The reason for it is that Rotella T6 was specifically developed for heavy trucks that have been required by the EPA in recent years to have exhaust filters and regeneration systems. The ZDDP was removed because it would clog up the DPFs on the big trucks and the manufacturers couldn't pass EPA any other way. Rotella T6 is a diesel truck oil designed to help the trucking industry pass EPA exhaust emissions rules.
A similar disussion has been going on over on an MG forum I visit. The old MG motors use flat tappet cams and people have been having cam failures when they thought they were being smart by putting Rotella diesel truck oil in their engines. Wrong application. With the old MGs, the problem today is finding an oil that has enough ZDDP in it. Lots of folks buy a ZDDP additive, or use a specialty oil made for the old cars.
Ronnie |
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Central Maryland | There are many oils specific oils out there (Amsoil, Joe Gibbs, etc) that have higher levels of ZDDP. I am currently using Amsoil 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil; which is recommended by Bob Carpenter Racing (Carpenter Racing - whom installed my 240hp package in my Rocket).
The referenced oil is not a motorcycle oil, but has high levels of ZPPD and since I'm running beefier clutch springs, the oil does not produce clutch plate slippage, even under high torque. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| willtill - 2014-03-19 2:55 PM
jeffmack - 2014-03-19 9:36 AM
yup, no MA rating, but has all the proper qualities. I agree with you. According to many my bike should have blown up 70,000 miles ago. I must say I do like the mix better than the T5. I do 3 qts T 15-40 and 1.5 qts T6. But thats just me. I have a Old Norton that loves the high Zinc content of Rotella and since it works perfectly without slipping in the Vic (got slipping with Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T) I'm sticking with it. Not to mention the price is on point.
Shell Rotella T6 DOES NOT have a high zinc (ZDDF) content anymore. It ruined my cams and tappets last year on my modified Rocket 3 motor.
No synthetic for the Norton. Rotella t triple has approx 1300 zinc content. Perfect for the bike. |
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Jasper, MO | jeffmack - 2014-03-19 8:11 PM
willtill - 2014-03-19 2:55 PM
jeffmack - 2014-03-19 9:36 AM
yup, no MA rating, but has all the proper qualities. I agree with you. According to many my bike should have blown up 70,000 miles ago. I must say I do like the mix better than the T5. I do 3 qts T 15-40 and 1.5 qts T6. But thats just me. I have a Old Norton that loves the high Zinc content of Rotella and since it works perfectly without slipping in the Vic (got slipping with Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T) I'm sticking with it. Not to mention the price is on point.
Shell Rotella T6 DOES NOT have a high zinc (ZDDF) content anymore. It ruined my cams and tappets last year on my modified Rocket 3 motor.
No synthetic for the Norton. Rotella t triple has approx 1300 zinc content. Perfect for the bike.
The discussion had been referencing Rotella T6 synthetic.
You are correct about the Rotella Triple T and ZDDP. It is still popular with truckers who have the older trucks, but it causes problems with the newer EPA spec trucks. For them, Shell came out with the Rotella T6.
Triple T is popular in the farming community. I use it in my newer tractors, and T1 in the antiques.
T6 was developed specifically to help the truck engine manufacturers pass the new stricter EPA exhaust regulations, and to meet the more stringent requirements of the newer, tighter tolerance, truck engines.
Ronnie
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| Never understand why you put diesel oil in a motorcycle
Never understand why you use tow different blends
Never understand why you pay big bucks for a bike and put in cheap oil |
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Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | johnnyvision - 2014-03-20 6:44 PM
Never understand why you put diesel oil in a motorcycle
Never understand why you use tow different blends
Never understand why you pay big bucks for a bike and put in cheap oil If you have ever gazed upon a 2300cc 3 cyclinder Triumph Rocket III engine... ....you would understand Grasshopper 
Edited by willtill 2014-03-20 6:19 PM
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Tourer
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Case in point:
How many times have I posted that users of Amsoil should NOT use the 20W-50 MCV oil in their Victory motorcycle??? I've warned about that many times. It is formulated for the wet clutches used in Harley and Buell bikes, but not Victory and the Japanese bikes. Neither Victory, nor the Japanese brands, is listed in the applications.
Ronnie
Funny, this from the Amsoil site: http://www.amsoil.com/AmsoilGarage/MotoLookup.aspx?url=2008+VICTORY...
BTW, the same 20W-50 is listed on the Harley page. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| Daveg53 - 2014-03-17 7:40 AM
I'm thinking of putting Amsoil 10-40 synthetic oil in my 2013 Vision. Any experience with same or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Daveg53
2013 Victory Vision Tour
Loydz flywheel
Witchdoctor baffled mufflers
1/4 turn throttle
I am using the Amsoil 10-40 in my 2008 Vision and i am happy with the smoothness of the transmission operation. When i bought this bike and before i did any service on it the clutch would slip under full throttle in 3rd gear and up but I would just back off some and it would be fine but what I didnt like was the way it shifted, how hard it was to find neutral at a stop light without having to shut engine off and just the transmission felt not smooth like I was expecting.. First thing I did was research what Amsoil to use in this year and model and did an oil change with the 10-40 Amsoil you are asking about. After first 50 miles I noticed the transmission was smoother and shifts were easier and it started feeling like what I would expect from a luxury touring bike. Now granted, the clutch would still slip under w o t in higher gears like before but it didnt make it better or worse. I recently took bike apart to replace clutch and found clutch plates heavily worn (I bought bike used and it had at least 2 previous owners and without bike history cant elaborate on why so worn) so I replaced the worn parts and did another complete oil and filter change which (5 quarts of Amsoil 10-40 and a Amsoil filter shipped to my house at preferred customer price of $70.)wasnt due for another 1500+ miles but I wanted to start fresh. So, new clutch and Amsoil 10-40 full synthetic and using stock OEM clutch spring, the clutch no longer slips at full throttle in any gear and transmission shifts are smooth and positive and it is easier and I am able to put bike in neutral while stopped. Time will tell how the clutch will hold up ( as many years as I have driven bikes, I have never burned out a clutch) but in my opinion the Amsoil 10-40 improves the operation of the transmission and makes it well worth the price. Quality is remembered long after price is forgot!
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Jasper, MO | tralphaz - 2014-04-27 11:29 PM
Case in point:
How many times have I posted that users of Amsoil should NOT use the 20W-50 MCV oil in their Victory motorcycle??? I've warned about that many times. It is formulated for the wet clutches used in Harley and Buell bikes, but not Victory and the Japanese bikes. Neither Victory, nor the Japanese brands, is listed in the applications.
Ronnie
Funny, this from the Amsoil site: http://www.amsoil.com/AmsoilGarage/MotoLookup.aspx?url=2008+VICTORY...
BTW, the same 20W-50 is listed on the Harley page.
I know. Amsoil needs a new webmaster. That's screwed up. Go look at the product itself and pay particular attention to the applications listed.
Ronnie |
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Synthetic Oil
