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| Discussion -> Vision Tech Q&A | Message format |
michaelcl1970 |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 32 Galesburg, IL | talexander, This has been a great thread! I started out like you. I have a 2010 and the first things I added were the Lloydz' upper air filter and adjustable timing wheel at +4 (bought from Rylan at his open house in 2013). I added the upper air filter first...I loved the sound it produced! To me, it sounded like there was a 4-barrel opening up underneath me. I then added the adjustable timing wheel. Personally, I thought with these two mods I was quite happy. I had a few times that it surprised me by having the front wheel come off the ground. This was all with the stock exhaust...which I was happy with not hearing it. I then added the 1/4 turn throttle, S1L2 exhaust (bought used from a member on Facebook...couldn't pass it up...they look better than the stock pipes and have a real good sound), PCV and had it Dyno'd by Rylan in October 2013. I would say that I'm probably under $1500.00 in parts and having it Dyno'd. I added all the parts myself...quite easy. I'm quite happy with the way the bike pulls now...heck, I was before too! We should get together for some rides. I'm about two hours from you in Galesburg, IL. Good luck! Mike | ||
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| Jimbo62 |
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Cruiser Posts: 92 Moncks Corner, SC United States | I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque. | ||
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| michaelcl1970 |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 32 Galesburg, IL | Jimbo62 I found this for rear wheel #'s: The 106 in the 09-10 Stock 78/97 I think the #'s you are seeing are at the crank. When Rylan (The Vic Shop) did the Dyno, he didn't make any comment to me that it should be much different than what it was. Trust me, I'm no expert on this stuff...I'm pretty happy with the way it performs. Before I did the pipes, PCV and Dyno I was able to "walk away" from a friend of mine on his stock Hard Ball during a 20MPH roll on...That was with my trunk on and I outweigh him by over 100 lbs too. | ||
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| jeffmack |
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Iron Butt Posts: 623 | Yes. Crank, or brochure, numbers are approx 14% higher than numbers at the wheel. Also, dyno's are Avery individualized thing. Each dyno can spit out whatever number the operator has it setup to spit out. Many many variables. Lloyd ran mine on his dyno after cams, vfc, and plate. The numbers were 108x111. I then a month later had it run in a local dyno and it pulled 116x116 with equal temps and altitude. Guess which one is the real numbers in my mind..... Yup. The 108x111. Get the mods and these engines will be within fractions of eachother. Make lot of the quotes numbers are just inflated bs.... Like my second dyno. Numbers be damned, I love how this thing pulls, have yet to have a GW or a Harley catch it | ||
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| michaelcl1970 |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 32 Galesburg, IL | Numbers be damned, I love how this thing pulls, have yet to have a GW or a Harley catch it I agree Jeff! I'm VERY happy on how it pulls my fat butt...and the bike...down the road! Unfortunately, I had the Dyno work done at the end of October so I haven't had a lot of time to enjoy it yet. One thing I haven't mentioned yet, is that I'm not real happy with the mileage, around 35-36. I know I have added a lot of air to it with the mods I have done, but I thought it would be closer to the 41 mpg range. Again, that might get a little better after I get a chance to ride "normal" and keep my wrist out of it. Mike | ||
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| talexander |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 14 Cedar Rapids, IA United States | This has been a good thread! I have talked with Rylan @ the Vic Shop & Danny @ Lloydz - Timing gear & top filter on the way. Gonna see how she runs before deciding on a fuel controller. All this talk & I am ready to go for a ride - It is finally above 0 so I should be good to go!!! Thad | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Jimbo62 - 2014-01-09 12:45 AM I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque. The 92/109 numbers are at the crankshaft. By the time the power gets transferred through the primary reduction, the transmission, and the final drive, frictional losses eat up 9 HP and about the same TQ, and a typical stock Vision on an honest dyno will show about 83 HP and 100 TQ at the rear wheel. That's the amount of power you actually have to accelerate your bike. The numbers everybody is reporting from their dyno tests are at the rear wheel, and the frictional losses have already been taken into account. The 110 HP and TQ is the actual power available. So, the increase from the stock 83 HP to 110 HP is really 27 HP, or better than a 32% increase in real, useable power. The Victory drivetrain is a little more efficient than something like a Goldwing with its shaft drive. The Goldwing loses much more. The Goldwing I posted is advertised as having 118 HP and 125 TQ, but as you can see from the chart I posted earlier, the actual rear wheel power is 97 HP and 103 TQ, or a loss of 21 HP and 22 TQ, due to frictional drivetrain losses. So, if you cam your Vision and get anything over 97 HP and 103 TQ at the rear wheel, you're going to be in front of the Goldwing----IF you also get rid of the 5500 RPM rev-limiter. It's a rare Harley that is brave enough to challenge a Goldwing to a race. 110+ HP in a Vision pretty much puts you in the front of the pack, as far as luxury touring bikes from Harley, Victory, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Honda go. Ronnie | ||
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| okie vision |
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Iron Butt Posts: 752 Broken Arrow, OK | FWIW, After a year running the top filter, I recently removed it. My riding style is 2 up, pulling a trailer on interstates to reach our destination which is usually Arkansas mountains and Missouri. The constant motor sound while running the interstate finally got to me, especially the motor noise when pulling hard up a grade at 75-80mph. Even with full helmets I got tired of it. Put the factory plate back on and it's heavenly highway again. I was surprised at the added engine noise that comes from the top filter at highway speeds. I have the cams, PCV and performance front filter so I'll live with whatever performance decrease I may take on to have my noise levels back to normal. | ||
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| Tims_11Vision |
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Cruiser Posts: 143 Lexington Park, MD | Agreed, this thread has been great! Getting a consolidation of fact out along with proven performance of various configuratons. Ronnie is on the money about the GW (im making 92 and 114) as I run with several of them and they USED to enjoy quick acceleratons and then letting me catch up. No more! While I have purposfully avoided flat races with a couple of them (just to keep peace) they know that the Vtwin is no longer sluggish and not just all bark and no bite. Getting back to Dyno talk. I know I mentioned it but with so much talk about numbers, I wanted to rehash about tuning on the dyno or using the auto tune. Im usually prone to stick with what is known to work and I went from a VFCIII to a PCV when I went to Lloydz thinking I was going to do the cams but wound up with the variable intake, PCV install and a solid dyno tune. I cannot impress enough how much differnence I seen between the front and rear cans when tuning. And Lloyd loaded a map for my configuration for a baseline and tuned from there. As I said on the previous page, several adjustments were as much as 15% out from front to rear. Lloyd attributed it to injectors primarily along with each engine has its final tweek. When my buddy that got the TourCams on his XCT got on the Dyno I seen a few adjustments from front to rear of 20%. Thats pretty significant I would think but the final runs had the RPM bands smooth and together front and rear. Laying into the throttle now the engine even sounds differnt and when I jump back on my 04 it seems very apparent that matching the cans can be as important and adding the parts to improve performance. I have heard riders (Vision and other engines) say "She is making all kinds of noise but not going anywheres fast". After watching the Dyno run, it seems to me that tuning is 250ish bucks well spent and that is having someone that knows what their doing do it. Thad since you got the mechanics down I think you got a solid plan getting the tune right after. IMHO it will solidify your mods. Danny at Lloydz is a heck of a good guy to deal with (LLoyd too) and will literaly give you shop if he can. When I was up there, tossed me the keys to the truck and sent me to a MC museum next down over and what a blast that was. "Come back when your ready" he said... Of course it was Lloydz truck so maybe danny wasnt worried about it.. lol. I do wish I could find a dyno sheet showing the variable intake numbers before and after. I know Lloydz site said approximate 8lb torque increase across the board. I would think that installing that in our garage should not have any negative side effects and based on the price, it aint that much more than putting the ATS wheel on. Okie I understand what your saying and why you did it. I would be curious to know if running the performance filter with the plug in the inake between the filter and TBs removed would still provide about the same air flow and then if you installed the Varialble intake to smooth out the venturi if that would not replace what you had. I know when I did put the performance filter on mine, the stock was almost like new still and I had been running the upper since about 2K so it had around 13k on it. Alot of contruction on the highway here so I expected it to be much dirtier. Mike1970 I think you will be fine on your mpg. I came back from NY after the mods at 46, went down to high 30s for the next two months and was getting carpel tunnel syndrome I think. Then on the 3rd month my wrist quit hurting from slamming that 1/4 turn throttle ring and my mpg steadied out at 42 around here mixed highway/local and 48 on the road for trips with cruising around 70-75. More HP/TQ and better MPG. Same over the road trips I would barely make 40, same riding style. Good stuf all, safe ridin! Mike hope you can get out soon! | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | Man? Reading these.. Almost make me want to do something to my '12 Vision. Now just have air filter and stage 1 pipes and reprogramed. Just that open it up. | ||
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| adirondacks |
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Tourer Posts: 323 Troy, NY | You will not be disappointed going w/ new cams. | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | adirondacks - 2014-01-09 8:14 PM You will not be disappointed going w/ new cams. Agree 100%. Lloyd did a fantastic job designing his VM1 cams. Unlike many other cam designs (and engine designs), which give up a lot of low end to gain a lot of top end, LLoyd's VM1 design, in combination with the Victory 4 valve heads, really have no downside. Low end is only slightly impacted, (and that can easily be mitigated, and even improved over stock, with ECU, or timing wheel, or adjustable intake), and the mid-range and especially the top end are greatly improved. Fuel economy isn't really affected. I'm impressed. Ronnie | ||
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| BradXC |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 | Sorry I'm on the Vision site since I have an XC, but this is a good discussion. Rdbudd - It appears you have the Goldwing sized up. Just curious what your opinion would be between my XC and a Goldwing from about 20mph roll on or dead stop going to 100. Current setup: Lloydz timing gear +4, VM1 DR cams, VFCIII, Llyodz ECU mod and Lloydz air filter. Just wanted to get your take, Thanks. | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-10 12:02 PM Sorry I'm on the Vision site since I have an XC, but this is a good discussion. Rdbudd - It appears you have the Goldwing sized up. Just curious what your opinion would be between my XC and a Goldwing from about 20mph roll on or dead stop going to 100. Current setup: Lloydz timing gear +4, VM1 DR cams, VFCIII, Llyodz ECU mod and Lloydz air filter. Just wanted to get your take, Thanks. I still hang around and ride with Goldwing riders, most of whom are former sport bike riders, and drag racers, and we still like to play. Weight is an important consideration. If one of the riders is substantially heavier than the other, the lighter weight rider is going to have the advantage. That said, if the weights are close, your XC shouldn't have much trouble showing its taillight to a Goldwing. The Goldwing is geared a little lower than your bike in 1st gear, which gives him more torque multiplication. (It's all about torque and torque multiplication). He might pull you just a bit from a standing start, but stay in it, shift at 6000 RPM, and you'll be even by the end of 2nd gear. You'll start pulling away in 3rd and 4th gear, if you haven't already by the end of 2nd. Second gear roll-ons will be close, but you should be able to walk the GW a little. Third gear roll-ons should be in your favor. In 4th or 5th gear roll-ons situations, such as passing a couple of semis on a two lane road, you'll have to back off to keep from running over the Goldwing. Why stop at 100 MPH? Your 5th gear is good for 133 MPH, and the Goldwing can't even go that fast under most conditions. Yes, I know their speedometers indicate that they are running 130+ MPH, but every one I've seen are at least 5% optimistic on the upper end. Most won't really run over about 125 MPH, with a tailwind. If you really want to impress the GW rider, do a 5th gear roll-on test (both bikes in 5th) from 90 MPH to 120 MPH and watch him fall behind. Don't get sucked into the argument that you should both be in your respective top gears when doing top gear roll-ons, because it's an apples and oranges comparison. The Goldwing has a five speed transmission, and "technically" has overdrive in 5th (5th gear is an overdriven ratio), but their primary and final drive ratios are lower than the Victory and they are turning 3000 RPM @70 MPH. The Victory is turning 3150 RPM @ 70 MPH in 5th gear, and only 2650 RPM @ 70 MPH in 6th gear. If you try to do a roll-on against the GW when it is in 5th and you're in 6th gear, you've handicapped yourself by reducing your power by 13% compared to the GW. The GW doesn't "really have" an effective overdrive and certainly has no 6th gear. Insist on running gear for gear. Insist on doing every test with both in the same gears, 1 though 5. Just say "I'll match you gear for gear, in any gear you've got". If you're flogging through the gears to reach a certain ultimate speed, such as 100 MPH, then shift at 6000 RPM each and every time, 1-2, 2-3, 3-4. You'll hit 100 MPH at 5600 RPM in 4th. If you both got an equal start, such as rolling from 20 MPH in 1st gear, the GW will be behind you. Be forewarned: the GW is geared for 114 in 4th and you're geared for 107 (at 6000 RPM each). If you hold 4th too long, he will catch you, and even pass you eventually. Simply shift into 5th somewhere between 100 and 107 MPH (5600 to 6000 RPM), and you'll keep him in your rear view. He will never catch you until you're ready to slow down. Gear for gear, 1st through 5th, (especially in 3rd, 4th, and 5th) you should be able to walk the GW, unless you've consumed 100 pounds more Big Macs than he did. These observations are based on my Vision running against Goldwings. Our combined rider/bike weights are about 1100 to 1120 pounds. If you're that weight or lighter than that, it's to your advantage. If you and your bike together weigh more than 1200 pounds, you may have a problem with the GW. The Vision might be more aerodynamic than a XC, which might make some difference at higher speeds. Ronnie Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-10 6:59 PM | ||
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| BradXC |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 | Awesome thanks for the info. I finally got to run it out this weekend after I got my ECU mod done. Wow really smoothed everything out, all smiles. I thought about the weight I'm lighter. I'm 240+ Bike 850lbs? = 1090. This sould be good he is about 170lbs and a more experienced rider. Okay I feel more comfortable talking smack now. HAHAHA. I don't normally talk smack, but when he said that Harleys can't run even close to his Wing, I said this isnt a Harley. In fact he wouldn't even get his bike out to make a run. It's time to visit the old man again and once we are done, I'll point him to the Victory shop and tell him to buy a Vision. You can't make that Wing any faster. HAHAHA | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-13 9:20 AM Awesome thanks for the info. I finally got to run it out this weekend after I got my ECU mod done. Wow really smoothed everything out, all smiles. I thought about the weight I'm lighter. I'm 240+ Bike 850lbs? = 1090. This sould be good he is about 170lbs and a more experienced rider. Okay I feel more comfortable talking smack now. HAHAHA. I don't normally talk smack, but when he said that Harleys can't run even close to his Wing, I said this isnt a Harley. In fact he wouldn't even get his bike out to make a run. It's time to visit the old man again and once we are done, I'll point him to the Victory shop and tell him to buy a Vision. You can't make that Wing any faster. HAHAHA Nope, it's not a Harley. He probably does not realize this and doesn't take your bike seriously. You might have to "egg him on" by getting him to do some 55 MPH 5th gear roll-ons while out on a normal ride. That should get his interest piqued. If he is a typical Goldwing rider, he is complacent about his bike's performance compared to most "Harleys". He probably doesn't think there is any point in playing. That's to your advantage, at least at first............ Your bike/rider combined weights are close enough that we can consider them nearly equal. 30 pounds difference does make a difference, but it's not real significant at the power to weight ratios of these machines. Plus of minus 30 pounds on these machines is about equal to plus or minus 1 or 1 1/2 MPH at the end of the quarter mile race. The Goldwing is no slouch, as far as touring bikes go (it's long been considered the performance king in the luxury touring bike category), so don't take it lightly. You're going to have to be on your toes and pay attention to your shift points. If he is an experienced rider, and has experience flogging his bike through the gears, he will be shifting at 6000+ RPM, and might even be "power shifting" (fanning the clutch and shifting while holding the throttle open). With your setup now, you should also be shifting at 6000 RPM. If he wants to do a low speed rolling start (like 10 MPH) in 1st gear, do not be surprised if he pulls you initially, due to the gearing and smoothness of the GW. Just stay in it and you'll catch him in second gear. You really should NOT try a rolling start, with full clutch engagement, at any speed below 15 MPH, because of the gearing of your bike. If you start at 20 MPH instead, he probably won't pull you at all. When doing really low speed rolling starts, I just roll into the throttle instead of just whacking it open. You can have the throttle fully open by 2200-2300 RPM. Roll into the throttle only as fast as you can without sending your motor into violent shakes. Making your motor "hammer" is bad for your bearings. Don't do it. I suggest you go out by yourself and practice this before challenging anyone. You'll see what I mean. The GW can lug down to 1000 RPM, which is slightly less than 7 MPH, or even slower, with the clutch fully engaged in 1st gear. You CANNOT do that without a lot of driveline lash, and stress to your engine. 7 MPH in 1st gear on your bike is less than the idle speed of your motor. It's the difference between a flat six vs V-Twin, plus gearing differences. The GW is geared lower than you. It is what it is. Try to do your roll-on contest above 2000 RPM, and if you're lower than that, like 1500 RPM (11 MPH) just roll into the throttle until you get above 2000 RPM. As I said before, don't take the GW lightly, and don't talk "too much" smack. If both of you do everything right, you'll have about 1/3 of a second and a 4 MPH advantage on him at the end of a quarter mile, and will be running 100+ MPH in 4th gear (both of you). That's a few bike lengths. If you miss a gear and he does not, he'll likely beat you. Your bike is faster than his, but you'll have to do your part. Go out by yourself and practice some low speed starts in the 1st, or whatever gears you think you'll be using, and also do some runs through the gears. Get the feel for your machine's capabilities and limitations. ALL machines have capabilities and limitations. You need to know what they are BEFORE challenging your buddy. Cammed Victory XC and Visions make for fun racing against GL1800s. It can turn out to be anybody's race. Do everything right, and it will be YOUR race to the win. You might be interested in this article that I wrote nearly three years ago, concerning the performance of Goldwings and Visions. http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8212&pos... Ronnie Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-13 11:02 AM | ||
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| BradXC |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 | Thanks, sounds like fun to me. He did say he would what until spring to run so I could get use to my bike. I purchased it in Oct13 and had the Llyodz Air and VFCIII put on at purchase and True Duals (I know those don't help down low, but I like them), I rode for about 2 weeks off and on and due to weather I only put 600 miles on the bike. I had to put the bike in the shop for a condesation leak in my radio. So while I was there I went ahead and got the VM1s and Timming Wheel then road about another 2 weeks 600 miles, and then sent my ECU/ECM off to Lloydz (Waited 2 weeks). Thanks for the advice you are right I need more seat time and that really hurts my feelings. :-) I'll just get him out on a normal ride this sring and not say anything and see if he bites the bait. We have ridden together before, but I was on a Vstar 1300 and him on some Harley with a trunk? not sure what model that is I don't keep up with Harley that much. Long short he couldn't keep up with my Vstar so he traded his Harley in for the Wing. | ||
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| atvtinker |
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Tourer Posts: 466 Grand Cane, LA | BradXC, your posts sound like what my brother and me have been doing over the last several years. LOL! He had a '09 RoadGlide and I have my '08 Vision. He got so tired of me beating him that he ended up spending about 5 grand adding stuff to his bike to just to catch up. And still couldn't beat me from a dead stop start. He just sold his RoadGlide last month and bought a GoldWing and he still can't figure why he can't beat me. He can get me off the line now, but by the time we get to 3rd gear, I'm passing him up slowly but surely. My bike is still stock motor wise and I've been itching to try Lloyd's timing gear to get a little more grunt down low, but I'm going to wait till I buy a new Vision, add it and tell my brother that Victory has just improved their performance and egg him on for another one. I'm just sneaky that way!!!! | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | LMAO purchase a new Vision and say they did it? Good Choice!! | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | LMAO purchase a new Vision and say they did it? Good Choice!! | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | Jimbo62 - 2014-01-09 12:45 AM I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque. stock http://www.lloydz.com/graphs/48-106-Vision3.jpg source http://www.lloydz.com/dyno.asp | ||
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| BradXC |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 | Just to follow up. The old man came by and said lets go, so I went. He was impressed with the power of my XC, it wasn't really even close from start to finsh. We started a rolling start about 25 mph up to 120 mph and I pulled him all the way to 120 5/6? bike length might have been more. I will say after we rode I asked him all kinds of questions about his Wing and man those things have everything. I thought he was going to tell me you can use the restroom on the bike some how. Those wings are smooth with all kinds of bells and whistles and run pretty good too. I can only image what the Visions will do. Thanks for all the input. Edited by BradXC 2014-01-21 9:00 AM | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-21 8:56 AM Just to follow up. The old man came by and said lets go, so I went. He was impressed with the power of my XC, it wasn't really even close from start to finsh. We started a rolling start about 25 mph up to 120 mph and I pulled him all the way to 120 5/6? bike length might have been more. I will say after we rode I asked him all kinds of questions about his Wing and man those things have everything. I thought he was going to tell me you can use the restroom on the bike some how. Those wings are smooth with all kinds of bells and whistles and run pretty good too. I can only image what the Visions will do. Thanks for all the input. Fun, no? As somebody once said, it's more fun riding slow bikes fast than riding fast bikes slow. As a former Goldwing rider, I consider the Vision to be the V-Twin version of a Goldwing, which is a compliment. Cammed Visions and cammed Cross Country Tour bikes are pretty much equal competitors to the Goldwings, with each doing some things slightly better than the others. The Victorys and the Goldwings are the class leaders in performance, function, handling, and comfort. The offerings from Harley, Yamaha, and Kawasaki offer less of each. In some categories, much less, IMHO. Ronnie | ||
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| BradXC |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 | It was a blast!! We both were smiling the whole time, him not as much, but he was happy to see what my XC would do. I just wanted to make sure when I ride with Wings I wouldn't get left behind , that was the purpose of my test. My last bike was a Vstar1300 and I really like the bike, but I'm 6'4" and it was a little small, I also didn't like taking it on longer rides. (it's not really for that) Needless to say I fixed my problem, I can't get off my XC, I've only had it since Oct, and I'm really impressed. Could some things be improved, sure, but handling and performance is not on my short list. Just so you know how I am. If it has 2 wheels I want to ride it. A kid came by my house on a scooter with some speakers added on it, which sounded good. I said can I take for a spin, he let me. It was funny looking, but I had fun riding it around town. Edited by BradXC 2014-01-21 10:50 AM | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision. Ronnie | ||
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