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 PCV with Autotune ALERTJump to page : 1 2 3 4 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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dreesq |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 42 Prescott, AZ | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 7:33 PM kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc. That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you. I'm pretty sure I didn't give enough info in my original post. I do appreciate both of your responses. I had custom baffle work done on my exhaust at Arizona Victory in Phoenix when I bought my 2011 Vision brand new in August 2011. I believe, but I am not sure, that the dealer flashed my ECU at that time. Everything else is stock. I now plan to buy a power commander with auto tuner and a high performance front air filter. I believe I can install them myself easy enough, but I didn't know if I would need to return to the dealer for another ECU flash. Thanks. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 9:33 PM kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc. That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you. Not even remotely what I said. What I said is that auto tune feature does not adjust trim in real time. It is designed to have several trims accepted, and then let the reference charts work with the ECM's sensors do the adaptive work. I'm still not wowed by the PCV in a well thought out bike. It is still just an rpm based fixed map system once engaged. According to Dyno Jet. A real wide band sourced closed loop system like the HD crowd would be nice. Instead of this Bamd Aid system | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | kevinx - 2012-03-06 6:16 AM MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 9:33 PM kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc. That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you. Not even remotely what I said. What I said is that auto tune feature does not adjust trim in real time. It is designed to have several trims accepted, and then let the reference charts work with the ECM's sensors do the adaptive work. I'm still not wowed by the PCV in a well thought out bike. It is still just an rpm based fixed map system once engaged. According to Dyno Jet. A real wide band sourced closed loop system like the HD crowd would be nice. Instead of this Bamd Aid system are these features useless? ?2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included) ?Gear input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed) ?Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature) ?With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables). ?Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes ?10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb) ?Enhanced ?accel pump? utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges) Edited by Arkainzeye 2012-03-06 7:10 AM | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | For 99% of the world they are useless. The factory ECM is MUCH smarter then the PCV, and when used with a load based controller; it works quicker, and runs into fewer conflicts. Yes the PC units have their place in the world, but they are IMHO over rated, over used, and misinformation on them runs rampent | ||
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| MTVic |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 8 Tampa Bay, FL | While not a mechanic, 100% agree! Even on my old Harley had a PC and in the end since not running anything radical took it off and factory flash worked better. Funny, just before removal I found a map for my exact make up and it was almost all zero's across the board. With D&D pipes still agree. Factory flash. But I unfortunately bought RPW, which have a great sound but we can't seem to tune out some farting and backfire. On went the Lloyds IAV, on went PC5, getting better but not correct yet, one wasted dynotune, Lloyd's wants to do same at Daytona, I'm thinking now just go get a custom map. What a waste, but at this point with what I 've spent got to keep chasing the fix as I do like the pipes, and prefer non built in heat shields for comfort, obviously not looks. | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | damn... if a pc5 is no good, what about the units that cant tune each cylinder and treats the fuel delivery in every cylinder the same? Edited by Arkainzeye 2012-03-06 7:51 PM | ||
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| MaddMAx2u |
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Iron Butt Posts: 880 Orlando, FL | Arkaineye, thanks for the assist. +1+1+1+1+1 Kevin, I cannot believe you said that. I have always heard good things about you but apparently you're knowledge base on this issue is not up to snuff. OMG~! Really? You think Ma Vic's ECM narrow band is better than the PC5 autotune Wide band system? And you are wrong about trims. Yes, you can accept a map and "set it and forget it" or you can allow your autotune to continue to trim for all conditions, equipment changes and more. That's the point to a Wide Band Closed Loop System. The amount of trim depends on the percentage of variance you desire. The Autotune is set to adjust only if the trim exceeds a value of 20% But hey, if you want you can set it to 10%. And I don't need to flash my PC5 autotune every time I make a change. Seems you're real motive is making money, not doing the best tune. And I have yet to hear of anyone tat has been happier with Ma Vic's set up vs. a PC 5 with Autotune. And HD does not (to my knowledge) have a wide band closed loop system. It is a narrow band system like Vic's. To get a wide band closed loop you need ........... A POWER COMMANDER 5 AND THE AUTO-TUNE MODULE! Color me disappointed with your thoughts on this subject. Nuff Said. | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-06 7:39 PM Arkaineye, thanks for the assist. +1+1+1+1+1 Kevin, I cannot believe you said that. I have always heard good things about you but apparently you're knowledge base on this issue is not up to snuff. OMG~! Really? You think Ma Vic's ECM narrow band is better than the PC5 autotune Wide band system? And you are wrong about trims. Yes, you can accept a map and "set it and forget it" or you can allow your autotune to continue to trim for all conditions, equipment changes and more. That's the point to a Wide Band Closed Loop System. The amount of trim depends on the percentage of variance you desire. The Autotune is set to adjust only if the trim exceeds a value of 20% But hey, if you want you can set it to 10%. And I don't need to flash my PC5 autotune every time I make a change. Seems you're real motive is making money, not doing the best tune. And I have yet to hear of anyone tat has been happier with Ma Vic's set up vs. a PC 5 with Autotune. And HD does not (to my knowledge) have a wide band closed loop system. It is a narrow band system like Vic's. To get a wide band closed loop you need ........... A POWER COMMANDER 5 AND THE AUTO-TUNE MODULE! Color me disappointed with your thoughts on this subject. Nuff Said. I noticed i see racing sportsbikes use them as well (pc5). if you go to other forums and read about how a bike ran good, but then ran Great after the auto tune, you have to wonder how? why?. Not saying the power commander is the only thing or even the best thing out there. but im pretty sure they have to be doing something at least partly right in order to get the sales they do.. even the repeat buyers.? when i bought my 2011 vision and it was completely bone stock.. i had my pc5 left over from my 08 vision. i installed it on the bone stock 11 vision and uploaded the Stock map to it..... right from the start i noticed better cold (first start of the day) starting. along with better throttle response... and this was with No mods at all.. the main reason i installed it on a stock bike was because i already had it sitting here in my garage... | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Wow you sure like putting words in my mouth. The auto tune does not work real time. Don't believe me. Call Dyno Jet yourself. The PCV is a smarter PC3, but it is still just an rpm based unit. It is a piggy back computer that MODIFIES a signal. It does not do grand calculation like that done in a real ECM. It can not run a bike, and is simply a store house fro pre built cell based maps. Adding it to your ECM does not turn your bike into a wide band closed loop system. Auto tune is a TUNING AID.....That is it. Nothing more. The unit only knows 10 out of 100 throttle positions and adds or subtracts the same amount of fuel in a given cell regardless of what you are doing. In 99% of the cruisers out there a simpler, cheaper, and more reliable; load based controller does a better job. As to the insults you want to deliver about my knowledge. I've built and spun hundreds of bikes. What's your count? I know what I know....do you? Glad you brought up race bikes. That is the perfect platform for a PC type controller. They are pretty much accelerating or decelerating, and can tune out mechanicle glitches brought on by dual path intakes, and VVT. A race bike has about as much in common with a Vision as a jet fighter | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | BTW if you had read what was written instead of filling in the lines with preconceived thoughts. You would have noted that I said AVAILABLE to HD owners. There are currently several very good wide band closed loop systems on the market for them. I could easily make more money selling the PCV in both parts and labor, but why sell people things that they don't really need. Most builds are better with load based systems; iffy the absence of a good wide band closed loop system | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | I have a PCV on my bike. That being said I am going to have to side with Kevin on this. I put it on when I put Lloyds intake on so I can't say with any certainty what caused the hp increase. My background is in auto repair,I ran a dealership that saw an average of 80 cars a day through our service department. My guys saw more cars in a day than 99% of people see in a lifetime. I suspect the same thing applies to Kevin and bikes. I'm sure he's forgotten more than 99% of us will ever know. | ||
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| Turk |
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Iron Butt Posts: 612 | From Fuelmoto's website, the largest PC-V distributor in the country: I plan to call dynojet later today to discuss this with them. But, as I've said, you can watch it on the display. Zero out your base PC-V map and your trim tables, set your AFR's, and take a spin, you can see the AFR's fall right in line with the targets.... that's as real time as it gets folks. It may not be the fastest processor around, but it gets to the target AFRs in short order. Then, you can upload the trims so the next time you run, you start out much closer to your set target AFRs. This is how it's designed to work, and it does for me. Just sayin'. Edited by Turk 2012-03-07 8:02 AM | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Call them PLEASE. I did, and they told me that what they mean by tune in real time; is the ability to build fixed maps while riding the bike, and that the system was never meant to be or designed as a live action closed loop modifier. | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | Kevin, I'm thinking about installing cams in the future. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using the PCV with cams? | ||
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| MaddMAx2u |
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Iron Butt Posts: 880 Orlando, FL | OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me. First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not. For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2012-03-07 10:00 AM Kevin, I'm thinking about installing cams in the future. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using the PCV with cams? If you go with the VM1 cam. The VFC3 will get you the same performance. Their is one difference though. With the PCV you can get a 500RPM increase. Though you could also send your ECM to Loyds, and get an 800 increase in EVERY gear, and no more speed limiting | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. | ||
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| Turk |
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Iron Butt Posts: 612 | kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. Took care of that first thing. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2012-03-07 12:21 PM Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. ?Took care of that first thing. 1st through 4th gears only. 5th and 6th will get you nothing on my dyno with PC rev extend. Not that most people will go above 123MPH Edited by kevinx 2012-03-07 11:43 AM | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. ?Took care of that first thing. 1st through 4th gears only. 5th and 6th will get you nothing on my dyno with PC rev extend. Not that most people will go above 123MPHI already own the PCV so I might as well use it if only for the rpm increase. And I'm not in the over 123 mph group. Thanks for all your help Kevin. | ||
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| Turk |
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Iron Butt Posts: 612 | "You are correct. Auto-tune populates the trim table as you ride. The trims in the trim table (on top of the baseline fuel change in the fuel table) are being applied to the engine live. That way Auto-tune can know whether or not what it did to the trim table brings you to target or not, and will make a further adjustment from there if necessary. It is constantly applying to the engine and changing the values in the trim table. If you like the tune it has developed, you can accept the trims into the baseline fuel table (simultaneously clearing out the trim table with all zeros) and disable Auto-tune; or let it keep going, if you prefer. Let me know if you have any further questions. Regards, Chris Kelly Dynojet Research Inc. 2191 Mendenhall Dr. Suite 105 North Las Vegas, NV 89081 1-800-992-4993" That being said, I've since learned that KevinX's point is not that this doesn't all happen "dynamically", but that instead, it doesn't happen "instantaneously" as fast as it would with the ECM. The processor in the PC-V makes changes after the fact, albeit within fractions of a second or up to a second or two, depending on how far off a particular cell's AFR target was from the actual setting. It would take an integrated system or a much faster processor to make actual "real-time" changes, such as some of the very pricey units available for race bikes. However, the PC-V/Autotune DOES tune dynamically, as you ride. A second lag that gets that cell very close for the next time you pass through that rpm/throttle range is all that is required, and it works quite well. Also, this confirms that the base PC-V map, and the Autotune's trim maps DO work cumulatively. Hope this helps those who are on the fence. | ||
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| kris1956 |
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Iron Butt Posts: 1109 | Thanks Turk, Now if only there was a shop in the Dallas area that installed the cams as Kevin does. | ||
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| MaddMAx2u |
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Iron Butt Posts: 880 Orlando, FL | kevinx - 2012-03-07 11:22 AM MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me. First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not. For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems. Great job of avoiding the question. Not one solution in your answer will automatically tune for all the changes the PC5 WITH Autotune will accomplish. You did not give a real answer AND you keep referring to the PC 5 WITHOUT the Autotune Module. With the AUTOTUNE module the stock ECU does not have the exhaust sensors and cannot do the things you mention. And if you use the PC 5 alone, you still don't have the stock exhaust sensors to make adjustments to the AFR as they should be disconnected. Please, this discussion started and still is about the PC 5 used WITH the Autotune module. You mention modules that cannot even remove fuel and do not auto adjust and you think that's better? REALLY? I think I'm over this discussion. As far as I am concerned there is NO better solution out there than the PC5 WITH Autotune. If ANYONE (That includes you Kevin) knows of a better system that does everything the PC5 WITH Autotune does for the same or less money, please let me know. Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-07 1:47 PM | ||
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