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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 26
Milwaukee, WI United States | I was going to add this to the thread with Spock's Vision crash video but it was getting long and I thought this might be better as a new topic.
A point I didn't see mentioned in that posting is the linked front brake feature. When I first test rode a Vision the dealer explained how when you put on the back brake there is a certain percentage of front brake automatically applied. I've heard of this feature on other bikes but never rode one that had it in the 40 years I've been riding. On the test ride I tried a few experiments to see if I could feel the front brake kick in. At about 4o mph going straight, I hit only the back brake. I tried this several times hitting the back brake harder each time but never to the point of locking it up. It seemed to me that there was a lot more dip in the front end than I had felt with other bikes but I wasn't sure if it was due to the linked braking or just a softer front suspension.
Over the years I've taken the experienced rider's safety course a few times and have taken great care to learn and practice the correct way to apply both front and rear brakes (as mentioned in earlier posts) in all types of conditions. I too am an aggressive rider and worry that at some critical point being caught in a tight turn, maybe under wet or gravely conditions, and applying the correct amount of brakes gets circumvented by the linked feature. Having the front end dip or lock up due to the extra front brake could be a real problem. If a back brake locks up you may be able to counter steer and keep the bike from laying over in some situations. But if the front wheel locks up you are pretty much guaranteed the bike will go down fast and hard.
Spock, do you have any feelings on if the linked braking feature may have helped you keep some control in your situation or do you think it may have contributed to the dip you experienced. You said in your post, "I was braking with the rear brake as I do going into a turn and usually through a turn. I applied front brake and may have given too much front brake but got a lot of dive on the bike...". I'm wondering if the linked brake feature could have added to your own input and been part of the reason you lost control? Any thoughts? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | From the one time I had to hit the brake hard and sharp i was doing around 40-45 mph on dry concrete road two lane road. With oncoming traffic a 4wheeler was pulling into my lane to make a left turn going north while i was occupping the south bound lane. With less than 80 feet my first instinct was to mashed the brake, the rear wheel locked momentarily and the rear kicked to the right, I guess about 2 or 3 degrees, I came off the brake enough to start it rolling again. The person stopped halfway out and I was able to maneuver, between her front end and the center double lines. A went WOW Thank You Jesus. I never touch the front brake, I was concentrating on avoidance or hitting her in a place where no one was in her vehicle. Just my one and hopefully only time I have to hit the brakes like that ever again. Ride safe |
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Cruiser
Posts: 60
Denver | I have always thought that the linked brakes should be more like the Goldwings I owned...that is that either brake, front or rear activates the linked system. I also think that the Vision does dip much more than my previous bikes with the linked system. The 1800 actually has an anti dive system on the front forks which a lot of people disable because for some it makes the ride a little stiffer. On the Wing I have had several occasions to really have to hit the binders and never got a lock up (older wings yes newer ones no), but I have locked up the rear wheel on my Vision several times. (Probably riding to aggressive)
Willy |
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Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | Linked brakes are common in the Goldwing world and have been since I think 1983 don't quote me on the year. If slippery conditions are present and I mean Ice or snow not just wet pavement you could lock the front wheel with the rear brake pedal but under any conditions that you would normaly ride rain fog or anythig else that make the road wet it is not possible to lock the front wheel. This is a proprotional bake controller. On the rear brake you get 100% braking and the front one roter provides 40% braking the other 60% is controlled by the front brake lever. this has worked so well on the Hondas that hey waited till 2001 or 2 to bring out ABS. I for one dispise ABS as I can control brake lock and steering with standard brakes but if you want to lock them up and use the power slide to avoid a car forget it that control is gone with ABS.
My first experience with ABS was in a police car chasing someone and I went to power side around a T corner needless to say that did not work out quite as I planed and I made a short departure in to someones front yard. I will stick with the linked brakes and thank you very much for the choice. Archie |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| BillyTheKidd - 2009-09-17 7:33 AM I have always thought that the linked brakes should be more like the Goldwings I owned...that is that either brake, front or rear activates the linked system. I also think that the Vision does dip much more than my previous bikes with the linked system. The 1800 actually has an anti dive system on the front forks which a lot of people disable because for some it makes the ride a little stiffer. On the Wing I have had several occasions to really have to hit the binders and never got a lock up (older wings yes newer ones no), but I have locked up the rear wheel on my Vision several times. (Probably riding to aggressive) Willy As a previous Goldwing owner of both a GL1500 and a GL1800 that did all my own maintenance I can tell you that the linked system on the Goldwing is not quite what most people think. There are two 3 piston calipers in the front and a single 3 piston caliper in the back and when you use the rear brake pedal you are activating the two outer pistons on the rear caliper and the center pistons on the front calipers, when using just the front brake lever you are activating the outer pistons on both front calipers and the center piston on the rear caliper. This system is far more effective than that which is on the Vision, yet I personally have not had any kind of problem with the braking on my Vision as the braking quality reminds me of what I had on my '98 GL1500 Goldwing. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | The linked braking system on my vision is very similar to what my VTX 1800 was. Ironically they are even the same brake pads! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| Webhair - 2009-09-17 11:46 AM The linked braking system on my vision is very similar to what my VTX 1800 was. Ironically they are even the same brake pads! I too had a VTX 1800 and the braking system on the Vision is identical with one small exception and that is the proportioning valve they installed in the linked system to allow the rear brake to come on only until you put enough pressure on the pedal to open the valve to activate the center piston on the front calipers. The reason the brake pads on the front are the same as the VTX is because the calipers used are the same Nissin (rebadged as Victory) calipers as on the '02-'03 VTX 1800 C & R models as well as all years of the GL1800 Goldwing. I have physically checked this with extra calipers I have on the shelf from my old '03 GL1800 and my old '03 VTX1800C and it is true.......... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but this was not a tank slapper, and this had nothing to do with linked brakes. This was a dude panicking and locking up the rear. If you don't immediately see this, please get some instruction. I recommend the MSF course to start.
I'm very sorry it happened, and hope that he heals quickly.
Edited by lowtone9 2009-09-17 5:32 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | Sorry for being late in responding to your thread Gar. I think the linked braking system on the Vision is excellent and I don’t think it had anything to do with my accident. I think the linked system that Victory has come up with is one of the best I have used. I applied some rear brake before entering the turn but not enough to activate the front center pistons of the front brakes as designed in the linked system. I then applied too much front brake that caused the bike to dive and the front suspension to bottom out. This transfer of weight to the front wheel allowed the rear wheel to start a skid and sliding to the right in a turn and the tank slapping began. The rear tire did not start to skid until after applying too much front brake and transferring so much of the bikes and my weight to the front wheel. This is why I was so shocked when the rear tire started to skid because I did not apply any additional braking to the rear wheel. I am an aggressive rider and I have put over 38,000 miles on my Vision in 18 months and have been riding since I was 9 years old. This is the first time I have gotten my rear tire to skid under braking except for a few extreme panic stop braking practices I have done in a somewhat controlled environment in a straight line. On a big bike like the Vision you need to be careful not to upset the bike in a turn by braking to hard and to sudden. Throwing too much weight to the front wheel while in a turn will cause a tank slapper. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| I had an unhappy incident with the linked brake. The Vision is my first motorcycle with linked brakes, and I do the majority of my braking with the front brake. When panic braking, my first reaction is to nail the front brake, as it is the most powerful. In this particular incident, I had the Vision less than a month, and, in a panic brake, I realized quickly that something was wrong, the front wheel locked up while trying to steer around something in the road. In my opinion, the rear-based link brake system is designed for people who don't adequately use their front brakes. I personally would rather not have linked brakes at all, but, since that's not an option on the Vision, I'll live with what I've got, since the bike is so good otherwise. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | I have to agree with the MSF course 100%
I grow up on dirt bike and have always been taught - use the rear brake - in an emergency or balance stop - use the front in conjunction with the rear... Never ever the front only. |
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | Personally, I hate the linked brakes. I think its a cheap response to ABS, and doesn't to anything to enhance braking (assuming you know how to ride properly in the first place). This is the first and only bike I have ever ridden with them, and if I could, I would have them modified so they were no longer linked. But then that is just my opinion. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | craig, is your accident the one on youtube?! omg..... |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | Arkainzeye - 2009-09-17 7:22 PM craig, is your accident the one on youtube?! omg..... Yes it is Chris. I hope you are doing well! We need to get together again and ride. Maybe the Maggie Valley area again. |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | Webhair - 2009-09-17 6:59 PM I have to agree with the MSF course 100% I grow up on dirt bike and have always been taught - use the rear brake - in an emergency or balance stop - use the front in conjunction with the rear... Never ever the front only. I think the MSF course is a good start but I would also recommend taking the advanced class they offer as well as Jerry Palladino’s Ride like a Pro classes or study his DVD’s. Another great book and course is Lee Park’s Total Control. I have learned a lot from all of these courses but as I have learned in this incident accidents can still happen and you can still make mistakes. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Craig, reading of your mishap makes me realize exactly that. I still rode my normal riding style and bad habits, but with caution on the 1,400 mile trip I just completed. I thought of your encounter many times in hard turns and scraps and even had a few close encounters of my own, but nothing that put me down. I've figured I can either quit riding and think I'll be safer driving a car, or keep riding knowing I could fall of my ladder and die wishing I was on my motorcycle.
I see motorcycle riding is like a craft that requires training and under standing what it is we're really doing. Most of the accidents that I've taken note of is from inexperience where the rider was at fault. I don't count getting ploughed under by some "butt" talking on a cellphone.
I was on some tight turns and some tricky situations that only told me that I need to know my limit, or I need more work in that area. Comparing my Vision to Goldwing, I literally take turns anywhere from 10 to 30 miles faster on the Vision than I ever did on my Goldwing. I never could get better on the Wing as I had no confidence in the bike ability to hold a turn or situation. The Vision I just walk past most situations without so much as a heart fludder.
I wore my chaps and jacket the whole trip as well, as I want to save my skin as much as I can. I just watched tonight a show on motorcycle safety gear for racers and was amazed how they could crash doing 150 mph per hour, slide along the road a couple hundred feet and then get up like nothing happened. Given that though, we on the highway face a different challenge that even the heavest gear could take care of and that is getting run over. But your situation, I would have appreciated a little more gear, though I do ride with fingerless until it gets too cold.
Training is always key. Thanks for sharing, you're my hero for the day! |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 26
Milwaukee, WI United States | Thanks for the response Spock and I hope you're feeling better every day. Also thanks to all for the good discussion on the linked brakes. As usual we have varied opinions but all still share the same love of the Vision regardless. I don't consider the linked brakes to be an answer to abs but I think they are probably a nice safety factor for those who don't use the front brake effectively and try to do all their stopping with the rear under normal conditions. But, for those of us who use the front brake correctly (at least in our opinion) I worry that having the bike add additional braking on it's own could cause over-braking at a bad time. Can any body answer this question: Does the linked braking system only add front brake if the rider is not putting in enough of his/her own or does it add the same amount of front braking based on rear brake input only? To be clear, let me put that another way (and I'm making up the numbers just for the sake of argument), Let's say I hit the rear brake alone at a level of what we'll call 50%. And let's say that the linked system determines that based on that it should add front braking at a level of 25%. Now let's say I hit the rear brake again with the same 50% but this time I am also applying 60% of my front brake. Since I am already supplying more than 25% to the front will the 25% that the linked system is adding be overpowered and have no effect or will that 25% of front braking power be added to my 60%?
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Spock - 2009-09-17 9:00 PM
Arkainzeye - 2009-09-17 7:22 PM craig, is your accident the one on youtube?! omg..... Yes it is Chris. I hope you are doing well! We need to get together again and ride. Maybe the Maggie Valley area again.
Omg craig! that was you... i feel so bad.. i seen the blood in the video.. how badly were you hurt? And lastly how badly was the SpaceShip injuried? And i agree we got to get together sometime and ride! But ill stay in front of you now (just kidding)
you and fergy were the Reason i bought a Vision! by seeing you guys in maggie.. when i seen the 2 visions together i was drawn to it and i wanted nothing else.....
Chris
Edited by Arkainzeye 2009-09-18 5:55 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| gplonsworth, the front brake lever will only operate the outer pistons in the front brake calipers, independent of the rear brake. To get the full use of your front brakes you must use both the rear brake pedal and the front brake lever, with modern motorcycle tires on dry pavement and with proper weight transfer it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to lock up a front wheel. The accident that Spock suffered did not occur because of locking up the front wheel, in my opinion it occurred because of the wobble induced by a combination of being leaned over for a curve, extremely hard braking and running out of hard road surface. Anytime you are hard on the brakes and you go from one surface to another you are going to have changing traction conditions that could cause a wheel to lock up, in Spock's case it was going from asphalt to gravel but it could just as well have been going from asphalt to concrete (dry concrete has a similar friction coefficient as WET asphalt) or even asphalt to steel. |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | Arkainzeye - 2009-09-18 4:51 AM Spock - 2009-09-17 9:00 PM Arkainzeye - 2009-09-17 7:22 PM craig, is your accident the one on youtube?! omg..... Yes it is Chris. I hope you are doing well! We need to get together again and ride. Maybe the Maggie Valley area again. Omg craig! that was you... i feel so bad.. i seen the blood in the video.. how badly were you hurt? And lastly how badly was the SpaceShip injuried? And i agree we got to get together sometime and ride! But ill stay in front of you now (just kidding) you and fergy were the Reason i bought a Vision! by seeing you guys in maggie.. when i seen the 2 visions together i was drawn to it and i wanted nothing else..... ChrisI got a fractured shoulder but it should be like new in 7 to 9 weeks from now, got it in a sling. My face got cut up from the impact of the pole and I had to get 10 stitches but they are out now and my face is looking good. I don’t think I will have any real scaring. The darn reflector pole did most of the damage to me and the bike. The bike needs a new left side aluminum cowling, a left side fairing piece, a new left turn signal plastic piece, plastic fairing piece along the top left part below the turn signal piece and a couple of pieces down by the left front tip-over protector. The tip-over protectors really work great. I am headed down to check on the bike now and will give you all an update later today. I am glad you enjoy the Vision. I enjoy mine more with each mile. It is the most awesome bike I have ridden in 44 years of riding. I am sure glad I didn’t have this wreck on any of my past bikes or I might be here today. I am sure glad Fergy and Bruce where with me as they were totally awesome. I couldn’t have been in better care. I hope to see you soon Chris. Thanks, |
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Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | Another thought about how the linked brakes work:
The foot brake activates the back brake and the center cyclinder of the front brakes, right? Let's say we defeat the link and depend on hand strength for the fronts. Now we either have to generate half again as much force (two cylinders to generate the force of three) or we have to have half again as much throw in the brake lever to use the hand brake alone to fill all three cylinders (yes, I know I'm simplifying hydraulics a bit, but I don't think I'm over simplifying).
Now let's look at the back end of the bike. We've defeated the link, right? Now we have our entire boot with our hamhocks inside, stomping down on the rear brake alone. That sucker is going to lock up for sure. To make it worse, we have the back-to-front weight transfer for any braking situation making it more likely for the back to lock. Th brake pedal needs to be feathered, not stomped.
Let's face it, the Vision is a damn heavy bike. Low center of gravity notwithstanding, we still have a truckload of inertia in a quick-stop situation. We want to harness as much braking force as we can muster.
1) most of the braking is done with the front brakes
2) our strongest muscles are wasted on a pedal to the back brake, which works better under finesse
3) comparatively weak muscles are assigned to our most important brakes, the front.
thus
4) why not use some of the wasted strength of our strong muscles (legs) to preload the important brakes, which can then be featherd by our weaker if more finely controlled muscles (hands), meanwhile leaving enough force on the back brakes to bring them into full effect if necessary?
The linked brakes are an engineering insight, in my opinion. A brilliant solution to a haptic interface problem introduced by the first designers of motorcycles. I like 'em. I like ABS as an option for those who prefer it (I don't), but I don't like ABS as standard equipment. Yes, I KNOW Victory did not invent them... but linked brakes are brilliant and I think the Vision is a perfect platform for them.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 26
Milwaukee, WI United States | Thanks all, that's some great feedback. Knowing how things work is key to learning the best way to use the braking system as designed. I'll start practicing my braking techniques with this information in mind.
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | Chief Waldo - 2009-09-17 6:33 PM
I had an unhappy incident with the linked brake. The Vision is my first motorcycle with linked brakes, and I do the majority of my braking with the front brake. When panic braking, my first reaction is to nail the front brake, as it is the most powerful. In this particular incident, I had the Vision less than a month, and, in a panic brake, I realized quickly that something was wrong, the front wheel locked up while trying to steer around something in the road. In my opinion, the rear-based link brake system is designed for people who don't adequately use their front brakes. I personally would rather not have linked brakes at all, but, since that's not an option on the Vision, I'll live with what I've got, since the bike is so good otherwise.[/QUOT
seriously??? never grab a handful of front brake (especially front brake only) in a panic stop, "while trying to steer...". To me, "adequate " use of front brake is in conjunction with back brake and applied at a fraction of back brake application, oh, wait that's linked braking.  |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | Spock mentioned in one of his posts that he knew what to do, just didn't for whatever reason, and we've all been there. Right the bike up, brake hard, then counter-steer (like there is any other way) with throttle with correct seating position, and push the puppy into the corner. There wasn't time for that or he didn't or whatever... doesn't matter...
Using the rear brake through a corner is fine at low speed... not at 70mph.. I dont know about anyone else, but when riding aggressively, if you don't set up properly for a corner, and execute it properly, SKILL is the SMALLEST factor on going through the corner at this point. It's all on physics. Remember, the Vision may "feel" like a sport bike, but 800 lbs at 70 mph... do the math and read up on Newton.
Now... having said that... When I have tested the Vision, I DID NOT NOTICE it had linked brakes. I knew it did, I tried to see if I could feel them and I sorta thought I could... but as the ONLY time I use only the rear brake is at low speed... I couldn't really tell.
My Guzzi that I ride nearly every day has linked brakes.... from the 80's. I can't tell on that one either... unless as happened recently I was on gravel, at low speed, doing a U-turn... and holding or attempting to hold the bike steady with the rear brake and was "reminded" LOL... that I had linked brakes...
So I guess that's the point of this whole thread... The linked brakes really shouldn't be doing anything more than helping with stability. The whole point of linked brakes is so that your real wheel doesn't lock and your nose DOESN"T dive. That is, if it doesn't dive with normal braking, it shouldn't with linked. I would be looking at brake pads and mounts for some reason it's grabbng more than it should, and also be looking at fork oil/pressure.
Bottom line, and MY opinion if you are on a straight dry road, nominal speed like 30-50 mph... and hit ONLY the rear brake (as a test)... the bike should just stop, essentially the same as if you hit both front and rear brake together..... just might not stop as quickly only using the linked system. Then do the same test again... using both brakes... the bike should ACT the same... just stop quicker.
If the bike doesn't essentially act the same... I'd want to know why. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| jimtom - 2009-09-19 10:34 AM
Chief Waldo - 2009-09-17 6:33 PM
I had an unhappy incident with the linked brake. The Vision is my first motorcycle with linked brakes, and I do the majority of my braking with the front brake. When panic braking, my first reaction is to nail the front brake, as it is the most powerful. In this particular incident, I had the Vision less than a month, and, in a panic brake, I realized quickly that something was wrong, the front wheel locked up while trying to steer around something in the road. In my opinion, the rear-based link brake system is designed for people who don't adequately use their front brakes. I personally would rather not have linked brakes at all, but, since that's not an option on the Vision, I'll live with what I've got, since the bike is so good otherwise.[/QUOT
seriously??? never grab a handful of front brake (especially front brake only) in a panic stop, "while trying to steer...". To me, "adequate " use of front brake is in conjunction with back brake and applied at a fraction of back brake application, oh, wait that's linked braking.
It's not my intention to get into a discussion on braking technique. Suffice it to say that manufacturers put dual brakes or bigger brakes on the front for a reason, and it's not to encourage you to do the majority of your braking with the rear...
I guess what I wrote wasn't quite clear. I DID apply the back brake. BUT, since I was new to the Vision and never had linked braking, I grabbed an aggressive amount of front, because that's the major stopping power. What I experienced was the linked braking, due to the amount of BACK brake I applied - combined with the amount of front brake I applied with my hand, ADDING MORE front brake than I wanted/expected. As a result, the front brake locked up - something that is NOT impossible.
I've learned that Victory's system is designed for people who rely on the rear brake. Those who would normally not touch the front brake in a panic - resulting in a skid and increased braking distance - by design, now have the front brake applied for them, resulting in a shorter braking distance and, possibly, avoidance of a crash. |
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Vision Crash - Linked braking ????
