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Daveg53 |
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Puddle Jumper Posts: 42 Vacaville, CA United States | I'm thinking of putting Amsoil 10-40 synthetic oil in my 2013 Vision. Any experience with same or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Daveg53 2013 Victory Vision Tour Loydz flywheel Witchdoctor baffled mufflers 1/4 turn throttle | ||
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| viclvr |
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Cruiser Posts: 92 Princeton, MN | I use Ams 20-50 mc oil,, recommended for wet clutch.. or in a bind Mobil MC oil both work well 54+k on my Vision, pure one Purolator filter | ||
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| varyder |
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Visionary Posts: 8144 New Bohemia, VA | I know I'll be disputed but I used synthetic oil in my bike, including Amsoil and I noticed two things. I would get seepage around the cam cover on the right side and I felt a slight slippage when the bike had around 100,000 miles on it. It was enough to make me think it was time to replace the clutch. It was at that time I felt using a full synthetic was not such a great idea so I switched back to a semi-synthetic blend before I replaced the clutch. With the first oil change I noticed a difference, but I still sensed a slight slippage but on the second oil change it seemed normal again. That was 50,000 some miles ago. I've convinced to stay with a semi-blend. And I've gotten no seepage either around my cam cover since changing back. That's my story. Up until then I would swear by a synthetic and you can find posts to that claim here in Vision Riders. I no longer feel that way, but each of us have to be convinced on our own merits. Edited by varyder 2014-03-17 9:14 AM | ||
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| lstayner |
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Tourer Posts: 416 Prairie City, IA United States | I used Rotella T6 for about 20K - 25K miles on the VV. All of a sudden when I started to downshift into 1st at a stop sign I would get a shudder in the clutch when I let it out. I took it to the dealer under warranty and they tore is down. What they found was a dry clutch due to the synthetic oil (per Polaris). They soaked the plates overnight in Vic oil and reinstalled it. I haven't had the problem again since I switched back to Vic oil. Polaris was pretty set on using a semi synthetic oil only. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2014-03-17 10:12 AM I know I'll be disputed but I used synthetic oil in my bike, including Amsoil and I noticed two things. I would get seepage around the cam cover on the right side and I felt a slight slippage when the bike had around 100,000 miles on it. It was enough to make me think it was time to replace the clutch. It was at that time I felt using a full synthetic was not such a great idea so I switched back to a semi-synthetic blend before I replaced the clutch. With the first oil change I noticed a difference, but I still sensed a slight slippage but on the second oil change?it seemed normal again. That was 50,000 some miles ago. I've convinced to stay with a semi-blend. And I've gotten no seepage either around my cam cover since changing back. That's my story. Up until then I would swear by a synthetic and you can find posts to that claim here in Vision Riders. I no longer feel that way, but each of us have to be convinced on our own merits. WERD! | ||
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| varyder |
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Visionary Posts: 8144 New Bohemia, VA | And to KevinX who told me so about 100,000 miles ago... | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | for what its worth.. i saw this info and remembered it from a while back.. Synthetic oil flow more readily than petroleum oil does so if you have a leak it will tend to leak from it more freely. This however is caused by an all ready failing seal. Not by the synthetic oil itself. Petroleum motor oils are notorious for forming what's know as a "false seal" Varnish and crud will build up around a failing seal over time and help keep a more viscous petroleum oil from leaking. Synthetic oils that are highly detergent will clean off the build up and expose the all ready failing seal. There's your leak! For this reason I suggest that synthetic oil's only be used in mechanically sound engines. If you have a leaking seal replace it prior to installing synthetic motor oil. I have also seen many cases where older engines are starting to seep oil because some motor oils have poor long term seal compatibility. Exposure to these low grade oils causes the seals to harden and seal poorly. All motor oil, synthetic and petroleum alike contain chemicals as part of the additives that are added to the oil that are there to keep engine seals pliable and to cause mild swelling so the seal works properly. Some oils are better at this function then others. Edited by Arkainzeye 2014-03-17 11:00 AM | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Daveg53 - 2014-03-17 7:40 AM I'm thinking of putting Amsoil 10-40 synthetic oil in my 2013 Vision. Any experience with same or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Daveg53 2013 Victory Vision Tour Loydz flywheel Witchdoctor baffled mufflers 1/4 turn throttle I've used it for many years and like it. I run it 5000 miles with a WIX 51356 filter that you can buy at any parts store. Just do NOT use the Amsoil 20W-50 MCV oil in your Victory. It's designed specifically for Harley and Buell and has additives the Victory (and Japanese bikes) doesn't like. It's not unheard of to have some clutch slippage if you use it in a Victory or Japanese bike. Wrong application. I've had good luck with the 10W-40AMO in my Vision and it or the 20W-50ARO in my Sport Cruiser. I've never had any clutch issues and I've broken three belts on the SC and pulled wheelies with the Vision while drag racing them. No clutch slippage with either. Ronnie | ||
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| varyder |
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Visionary Posts: 8144 New Bohemia, VA | Arkainzeye - 2014-03-17 11:59 AM for what its worth.. i saw this info and remembered it from a while back.. Synthetic oil flow more readily than petroleum oil does so if you have a leak it will tend to leak from it more freely. This however is caused by an all ready failing seal. Not by the synthetic oil itself. Petroleum motor oils are notorious for forming what's know as a "false seal" Varnish and crud will build up around a failing seal over time and help keep a more viscous petroleum oil from leaking. Synthetic oils that are highly detergent will clean off the build up and expose the all ready failing seal. There's your leak! For this reason I suggest that synthetic oil's only be used in mechanically sound engines. If you have a leaking seal replace it prior to installing synthetic motor oil. I have also seen many cases where older engines are starting to seep oil because some motor oils have poor long term seal compatibility. Exposure to these low grade oils causes the seals to harden and seal poorly. All motor oil, synthetic and petroleum alike contain chemicals as part of the additives that are added to the oil that are there to keep engine seals pliable and to cause mild swelling so the seal works properly. Some oils are better at this function then others. good explanation, but it doesn't explain why there was clutch slippage with full synthetic and not with the semi-blend. Too my knowledge I do not have seals leaking, rather gaskets leaking. I don't know what the time frame for varnish to build up to seal any leakage but I wouldn't think it to be right away. I'm not afraid of full synthetic and I only returned to semi-blend when the clutch began to slip to see if it would help this el cheapo rider make his clutch last longer. When I felt the difference I realized what I onced believed to be myths were in fact true. It's hard to convince folks with real world experience of one truth to be convinced by another just because "research shows x y z". Diet suppliment companies make their living off of "proven research". Not that I'm implying anything... Edited by varyder 2014-03-17 12:56 PM | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said in our previous discussions that the synthetic oil you had been using for a long time, when you experienced clutch issues, was the Rotella T6 full synthetic. I don't doubt your experiences, but the OP was asking about the 10W-40 AMSOIL.................. Two completely different products. You can't condemn all synthetics based on the results with one particular brand and weight. If you were using Rotella diesel truck oil, what does that have to do with Amsoil? Ronnie | ||
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| Oldman47 |
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Tourer Posts: 573 Central Illinois | I am going to agree with VARyder. Unless you have long term data to present, not just a couple of oil changes, you have zero evidence of a particular oil being acceptable for an engine. Either use the specified oil or you are on your own. There are lots of good oils out there but the Vic oil is made to match the engine and transmission's needs. If you choose not to use it, why would you expect equally good outcomes? I hate when a company says use my stuff or you will suffer, but the fact is that other oils are not designed to exactly match the needs of a Vision. They are designed to match what their manufacturers think are great standards and they have tons of evidence that they were successful in doing so. The problem, at least in my mind, is that they are not designed to meet the needs of this particular engine/transmission. Heck people even come on line and propose using oil with the wrong viscosity because it works in other engines they have. Those other engines are not Vics so the results they have had on other engines are basically not applicable to a Vic. As an example: If I have a conventional traditional air conditioning system it has a specific refrigerant that is ideal for use in that system. A few years ago the EPA basically outlawed that refrigerant. Today I could come on and recommend that same outlawed refrigerant but i would help nobody. The stuff is illegal to use today and new refrigerants have been developed as replacements. None of those replacements actually perform as well as the originals but they are the best you can get today, except on the back market. Is it ideal, no way. Does it meet OEM standards, again no way. Can the manufacturers show that it works pretty well, you bet they can. Now I look at substitute oils in the same light. Can Amsoil or Royal Purple or several others show that they are identical to the original Vic oil? No way. Can they say they have tested their oils to meet their standards? You bet they can. Are they really the ideal oil for your engine? I seriously doubt it. Do they really claim to meet each characteristic that Vic oil meets? Heck no, they claim to be in some way superior. Now we get down to the real nitty gritty. Does Amsoil or Royal Purple define the needs of a Vic engine better than Victory does? I seriously doubt it. The best they can hope for is to match Victory oil, but that is something they will tell you they do not intend to do. Instead they will tell you that mama knows better and Victory is misguided in their own engine's needs. | ||
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| Arkainzeye |
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Visionary Posts: 3773 Pittsburgh, PA | Daveg53 - 2014-03-17 7:40 AM I'm thinking of putting Amsoil 10-40 synthetic oil in my 2013 Vision. Any experience with same or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Daveg53 2013 Victory Vision Tour Loydz flywheel Witchdoctor baffled mufflers 1/4 turn throttle i use that in my last 2 visions.. its in my 11 vision now.. i mostly used 10w40. there has been times i used 20w50 (not needed) and there has ben times i did a 50/50 mixture of Amsoil 10w40 and amsoil 20w50 mc oil.. btw all that does is make a very thick w40 "almost a 50weight" i used to do this with my kawasaki vulcan 2000 and had the oil tested by black stone labs... I really like how amsoil makes the transmission shift. | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Oldman47 - 2014-03-17 5:50 PM I am going to agree with VARyder. Unless you have long term data to present, not just a couple of oil changes, you have zero evidence of a particular oil being acceptable for an engine. 13 years and counting, using Amsoil in Victory motorcycles. It performs far better in MY real motorcycles than the Victory factory oil. More than twice as good, in fact, in many years of personal real world usage. I'm not going to rehash all the details again. A search of this and other forums will tell the story. The Op asked if anyone else had used the 10W-40 Amsoil, and I replied in the affirmative. Have you ever used it, or are you just speculating? Ronnie | ||
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| johnnyvision |
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Visionary Posts: 4278 | only having a 08 and amsiol with not a 1000 miles but have had no problem with clutch. All clutch manufactures will tell you they will work with syn oils. I use 10w40 cause the motor warms up quicker and cools like 20w50. Guys that have clutch slippage probably have use many other oil in there bike. Diesel oil is not for my bike. Make sure you have 25 hundred miles on bike before going to any syn oil | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | I have spoke to many Oil Company reps.. I personally use Maxima 4 Synthetic 10/40. What they all seem to say.. IF you choose to use other than your factory oil. MAKE SURE the later # which in our case is 40 matches. The 1st # which in my case is 10 just means the oil flows quicker. Yes there are addvantages of Synth over Dyno oil. Vic added the two together because 100% Dyno won't work. I agree with johnntvision wait till 2,500 miles or your 2nd oil change to go synthetic. THERE I feel better? Put my 2 cents in. | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The Royal Purple rep that came to my store. Would not sell their product to us; after he looked at one of our clutch plates. He said between the high metallic content, and toque. He was sure we would see some slippage. This was a man who made a living selling motor oils. Pretty much confirmed my own observations | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | According to my friends that are bike techs. It is Purples additive package that limits them in which bikes can use their product. | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | el spanky - 2014-03-17 9:08 PM According to my friends that are bike techs. It is Purples additive package that limits them in which bikes can use their product. And so it is with Amsoil products too. They make many different oils for many different applications. As I have said before, the 20W-50MCV oil is specifically formulated for Harley and Buell usage and is NOT listed for the Victory or Japanese bikes because of the special additives. It is NOT recommended by Amsoil for use in Victory or Japanese bikes. Says so right in the applications. Yet, some people used it anyway, and sometimes had problems with their clutch. Then they blame the synthetic oil and categorically dismiss all Amsoil products, when they are the ones who screwed up by using the wrong product for the application. Amsoil makes three other oils that are compatible with the Victory and Japanese clutches. Those brands are specifically listed in the applications for the 10W-40MCF motorcycle oil. The other two are not marketed as "motorcycle oil", but meet and exceed all the requirements put forth by Victory. The Royal Purple representative that spoke to Kevin is to be commended for recognizing that not all synthetic oils are the same, not all wet clutches are the same, and that his product does not match the requirements of Victory clutches either. Does that make Royal Purple a bad product? Of course not. It's great stuff for the applications it is designed for. Sort of like synthetic diesel truck oil. It's great for the diesel trucks and their operating conditions and requirements. Ronnie | ||
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| Haze_Gray |
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Cruiser Posts: 50 Virginia Beach, VA | I say use what ever you want. Sounds like that is what most here do any way. Why seek advice if all that happens is that you are trying to change the minds of those not intending to listen. As an old retired Navy jet engine mechanic, I believe in fixing and maintaining them as if I'm flying them and there is no place to land but the ship. I will do what the maintenance manuals require me to do. Use the Fluids that are specified for use. If you feel comfortable messing with your own stuff, then so be it. Have fun. I believe in doing what's right. If proper testing is completed and the results say that there are alternatives that are safe to use, then fine, use them. If you don't think that the Victory oil is good enough to last 5,000 miles, change it more frequently. It can't hurt. If something falls apart inside that motor or clutch, I don't want any fingers pointing at me because I used the wrong oil. We put a lot of money into these bikes, what's a couple dollars more or less for an oil change? Like I said before, use what ever you want. Just don't complain when things go south. I just changed the oil in my Vision the other day, guess what I used. If you have to question something, then are you really sure? Now, bring on the better weather. I want to ride. | ||
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| rdbudd |
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Visionary Posts: 1632 Jasper, MO | Haze_Gray - 2014-03-18 8:29 AM I say use what ever you want. Sounds like that is what most here do any way. Why seek advice if all that happens is that you are trying to change the minds of those not intending to listen. As an old retired Navy jet engine mechanic, I believe in fixing and maintaining them as if I'm flying them and there is no place to land but the ship. I will do what the maintenance manuals require me to do. Use the Fluids that are specified for use. If you feel comfortable messing with your own stuff, then so be it. Have fun. I believe in doing what's right. If proper testing is completed and the results say that there are alternatives that are safe to use, then fine, use them. If you don't think that the Victory oil is good enough to last 5,000 miles, change it more frequently. It can't hurt. If something falls apart inside that motor or clutch, I don't want any fingers pointing at me because I used the wrong oil. We put a lot of money into these bikes, what's a couple dollars more or less for an oil change? Like I said before, use what ever you want. Just don't complain when things go south. I just changed the oil in my Vision the other day, guess what I used. If you have to question something, then are you really sure? Now, bring on the better weather. I want to ride. Transmissions WERE falling apart on Victory motorcycles, using Victory oil, changed at 2500 mile intervals, when I started my search for a better lubricant. Like many others, MY transmission was acting up badly after 2000 miles on Victory oil. Victory claimed their oil was good for only 2500 miles. They set the change interval at 2500 miles. They were almost right. It is good for about 2000 miles in the early bikes. Changing to fresh Victory oil always made the transmission "straighten up and fly right" again--for about 2000 miles. Then, the troubles would return. Obviously, the oil was worn out by 2000 miles and no longer providing sufficient lubrication to key areas. Victory was getting a bad reputation for having transmission troubles, yet they maintained all along that their transmissions weren't the problem. What was then? Why did fresh oil restore the shifting qualities? Why did the shifting always become problematic after 2000 miles on the "Victory recommended oil"? 14 years later, I agree, their transmissions weren't the problem, per se. The problem was insufficient lubrication, which led to physical parts breakage and broken transmissions. Once parts are damaged, no oil is going to fix them. The wise course of action would be to prevent the damage in the first place. Two options here. Change the Victory oil at 1500 to 2000 miles, at the first sign of trouble-----or use a better lubricant in the first place. After trying some other brands, with no improvement over the Victory oil, I finally tried Amsoil. I gradually stretched out the change intervals and finally settled on 5000 miles, and the transmission has never acted up since the switch, EXCEPT for the time that I needed to change oil and didn't have enough Amsoil on hand. I used a Victory oil change kit that I had left over from before the switch to Amsoil. 2000 miles later, my transmission was acting up again, just like the old days. A change back to Amsoil, and the transmission was shifting fine again. It's that much better than Victory oil, in the early bikes' transmissions. The later bikes, such as a Vision, have much more refined transmissions that don't place such quite such high demands on the oil as the earlier bikes. Yet, Victory still recommends 2500 mile oil changes on my 2008 Vision using their oil........... It turns out that it is also cheaper to use than the Victory oil, due to the extended service intervals. My 2000SC still has the original transmission, and never misses a shift on Amsoil, even with 5000 miles on the stuff. On the Victory oil, it would start missing shifts and jumping out of gear around 1800-2000 miles on the oil. Had I stuck with the "factory recommended oil", I have no doubt that the transmission would have failed long ago, like so many others. The poor shifting and the concern over the transmission was the reason I tried other oils in the first place--NOT just because I "wanted to be different". I still owed a lot of money on that bike at the time, and I thought I had made a bad mistake in buying a Victory because of the transmission troubles all around the Victory community. Better lubrication was the answer to the problem. That's the facts, borne out by personal experience--not unsubstantiated opinion and conjecture. I don't know about the Navy, but I know the Army specified better lubricants as they became available. That often meant synthetics. In fact, the military was at the forefront in the search for better lubricants for the extreme operating conditions they encountered. Synthetics were the answer. The civilian market benefits from that search. I agree, use whatever you want. It's your bike. The OP asked about actual experiences using Amsoil in Victory motorcycles. Those are mine. Side note: I fly ultralight aircraft that are powered by Rotax aviation 2 stroke engines. These engines are mounted in the inverted position. The "factory recommended oil" is Pennsoil 2 stroke aviation oil, which is a petroleum oil. Rotax, like all aviation engines has a TBO. Engines run in the inverted position also have a periodic carbon removal schedule. The Pennsoil is recommended to be mixed at a 50-1 ratio. Carbon buildup is a minor problem, as is oil accumulation on the spark plugs, resulting in fouled spark plugs. Pulling over to clean the spark plugs is a bit of a problem should they foul while in flight, but I've done it, as has many other UL pilots. I still have 2 gallons of the stuff. However, I've switched to Amsoil 2 stroke aviation oil, which is a synthetic. It is mixed at a 100-1 ratio, doesn't foul spark plugs, doesn't leave near the oil trail on the rudder, and doubles the TBO in practical usage. Ronnie Edited by rdbudd 2014-03-18 11:33 AM | ||
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| kevinx |
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Visionary Posts: 1340 Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | A touch of clarity here on the early transmissions. My findings are based on tearing down many of them for upgrades. The most common cause of failure had nothing to do with lubrication. It has to do with insufficient anchoring, and support for the shift drum. The bearings for the ends of the drum were allowed to move in the locating hole which would cock the drum. The cocked drum would apply uneven pressure on the shift forks, and eventually they would wear thin, and allow the drum even more movement. Until the drum would break the heads off the bolts of the bearing retainers. Yes an oil jet was added to the upgrade, but that was there for cooling. I know for a fact I can destroy any 99-00 stock transmission in under 100 miles. As for any oil being "better" that's an ambiguous call. Sure people can trot out the amsoil white sheet, but it has a couple of problems. First being that it is of course bias, and testing is done to show it's strengths. Second being it does not test in any engine that is close to a Victory's needs. Through my rather larger exposure. I personally will not use or recommend a full syn in any Victory. However I do run Amsoil in my wife's Caravan, and will be switching to their old car formula in my Bug. I'm not a hater....Just an observer. Now hopefully I will quit being drawn to oil threads Edited by kevinx 2014-03-18 12:28 PM | ||
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| donetracey |
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Visionary Posts: 2118 Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | Right On, Kevin. My philosophy: IF IT AIN'T BROKE ---- DON'T FIX IT | ||
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| varyder |
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Visionary Posts: 8144 New Bohemia, VA | rdbudd - 2014-03-17 6:43 PM Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said in our previous discussions that the synthetic oil you had been using for a long time, when you experienced clutch issues, was the Rotella T6 full synthetic. I don't doubt your experiences, but the OP was asking about the 10W-40 AMSOIL.................. Two completely different products. You can't condemn all synthetics based on the results with one particular brand and weight. If you were using Rotella diesel truck oil, what does that have to do with Amsoil? Ronnie I wasn't using the diesel truck oil it was the MA rated oil. When I surmised that maybe, just maybe the syn oil was the culprit and give the blend another try, I didn't want to take any chances to "see" what AMSOIL will do. I've been using Lucas 10w40 motorcycle oil since and it seems to serve my purpose. I've got 154,000 on the clock and even if I replaced the clutch today, I would stay with the blend. The bike doesn't smoke or leak oil and it still has the chatter at oil changing time. The main positive I found with the full syn was it would chatter until around 3,000 or later. The blend, it will start to chatter around 1,800-2,000, giving me time to plan my oil change. I'm like others, I'll use Amsoil in my car, at the present I am not using AMSOIL, but I would in a minute. Unless Vic comes out with a recommendation for a full syn, I'll stick with a properly rated blend. I have never used any additives in my bike oil, except when I had a sticking lifter. I used MMO, but that was around the 40 or 50,000 mark. It's not likely I'll do that again for any reason, but it seemed to work at the time and caused no harm that I know of. Warranty is long gone, I've gotten more miles out of this bike with minimal issues so I figure from here on out, I'm on a free ride. | ||
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| jeffmack |
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Iron Butt Posts: 623 | Varyder, where do you purchase the Lucas oil from? I can find it for 40.00 for 6 qts...got a better deal? not a bad price, little more than the Rotella T5 10-40 I've been usuing. May give the Lucas a shot. | ||
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| el spanky |
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Cruiser Posts: 155 Victoria Tx, TX United States | WOW?? All this over asking a question about oil? Just make sure your 2nd # on your oil is 40 weight. AND your oil is a JASO MA rating not a MA2. Funny in Ma Vic book? It does not read do not use synthetic oil. But we all have our fav oil as myself.. Try it.. Don't like it change it out..  | ||
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