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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 5
| I'm curious if anyone has tried this? I have an 08 Vision with a timing wheel,top filter, adjustable intake and VFC currently. The bike was set up by Rylan at The Vic Shop and runs great, but I'm always searching for a little more power. Since I have the old style carriers and my cam choices are limited to the VM1's, I thought about giving these a try. I have a set in the garage and from what I've seen the V92 cams are a "hotter" cam than the 106 cam(stock).Thoughts? |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | I would suggest you have Rylan install a set of Lloydz VM1 cams. Then send your ECU to Lloydz for a reprogram.
You won't believe the improvement over what you already have. The things you have already done are the basis for a 30% power increase over stock. You've gained about 5% to 10% so far with them. The VM1 cams and ECU reprogram finish it.
Stock exhaust works great.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | If you compare the carrier part #'s of the 92 and your 2008 106 are they the same ?
Also would the cam chain sprocket from the 106 bolt onto the v92 cam?
Edited by Arkainzeye 2017-02-09 10:37 AM
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | The 106 cam chain sprocket has timing Marks on it to time the cam properly to the crank. Does the v92 have those seeking markings? It appears from Google searches that the 106 cam chain sprocket will not fit the v92 cam, as the v92 cam sprocket has a hole in the center and the 106 does not. There would have to so many things that need to line up perfectly.. sprocket with the chain, spacing of the sprocket teeth , and how it lines up with the chain running down to the crank.. for me personally ... I had component failure on my 106 (2011) and had to buy a new engine.. it's not worth the risk .... |
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Puddle Jumper
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| Thanks for the responses. Yes, the V92 cams work in the 08 106's. I realize that the VM1's are better, but I already have the V92 cams and was curious if anyone knew if they would provide a boost |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | Silsby68 - 2017-02-09 8:37 PM
Thanks for the responses. Yes, the V92 cams work in the 08 106's. I realize that the VM1's are better, but I already have the V92 cams and was curious if anyone knew if they would provide a boost
While I haven't tried it, I am doubtful that you would see much, if any, gain. There is more than just the lift to consider. There is also the lobe center and the duration, both of which affect the powerband more than the lift does.
Lloyd Greer spent many hours on a dyno developing the VM1 cams. They are optimized for the 106 with the stock exhaust. They produce a usable powerband that is a full 1500 RPM wider than the stock cams. That is why the ECU reprogram is so beneficial. It lets one take advantage of the full capability of the VM1 cams. The stock ECU map leaves a lot on the table, and even the PCV with a 500 RPM limiter increase leaves a little performance on the table. I'm talking about the total usable powerband, not just peak numbers. Peak numbers alone do not tell you the whole story. Maximum performance is determined by the area under the torque curve in the RPM range the engine is operating in between gear shifts. Lloydz ECU optimizes the VM1 cams capability.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 5
| Ronnie- so you recommend the VFC with the ECU reprogram over the PC5? I have the VFC now and it's not bad, but my bike does have a lot of decel pop,especially on the upshift between second and third. |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | Silsby68 - 2017-02-15 5:52 PM
Ronnie- so you recommend the VFC with the ECU reprogram over the PC5? I have the VFC now and it's not bad, but my bike does have a lot of decel pop,especially on the upshift between second and third.
No, not necessarily. No matter whether you use a VFVIII, or a PCV, you need to increase the rev-limit over the stock 5500 RPM. Lloydz ECU reprogram increases it to 6400 RPM in all six gears. The ideal shift point for maximum acceleration with Lloydz VM1 cams is done just as the tach moves through 6000 RPM on the way up. This will place the engine back in the optimum torque band when the gear shift is made.
Top speeds in each gear are a function of the ECU program and are accomplished by limiting the RPM. The stock limits are 5250 in 1st gear, 5500 in 2nd through 5th, and 4750 in 6th. This effectively limits your top speed to 120 MPH in both 5th and 6th gears.
The PCV has the capability of adding RPM above the stock ECU, but it (like the VFCIII) is a piggyback device that is still a slave to the ECU. Thus, adding 500 RPM as is commonly done by tuners increases the RPM to 5750 in 1st (still way too short), 6000 in 2nd through 5th gears ( forcing you to shift at about 5800 to stay off the limiter), and increases 6th gear to 5250. In practice, the stock ECU in conjunction with a PCV actually starts cutting off at about +450, so you lose another 50 RPM over theoretical increases. This means in the real world that the PCV with 500 RPM added still forces shifts too early for optimum acceleration, and the top speeds become about 131 in 5th and 137 in 6th gears. For many people, this is fine. However, it can be improved.
One way is Lloydz ECU, which takes each gear to 6400, letting you shift at the optimum of 6000 without hitting the limiter. This is most important in the first 2 or 3 shifts, especially 1st to 2nd. It also raises the top speeds to a maximum of 140+ in 5th (I would keep it down to 130 which is 5900 RPM), and 6th gear will take you over 140 MPH in ideal conditions. 140 MPH is achieved at 5300 RPM. Yes, the Vision will go that fast with Lloydz cams, intake, fuel control, and ECU program. Believe it. Ideal conditions are needed, but it will do it.
Another way is to call Dynojet and get the authorization code for adding 1000 RPM to the PCV. This moves 1st gear to about 6200 RPM, 2nd through 6th gears to about 6450, and 6th gear to about 5700 RPM. This will let you get the most out of the cams.
There is another option that has recently come on the market. It is a device made by Technoresearch called Maxximus. It costs about $450 and lets you reflash your own ECU. Supposedly, you do not need any type of piggyback controller with it. It is being evaluated by some of the top tuners. The jury is still out on it. There is a lot of hype going on Facebook about it, but until Rylan Vos, Kevin Cross, and Lloyd Greer weigh in on it, I'm reserving judgement on it. It may be all the maker claims, and all the internet hype is claiming, but I want some hard evidence from some reliable tuners before I jump aboard that train.
You already have a VFCIII. There is nothing wrong with it and it actually handles large elevation changes better than a PCV. The PCV is recommended if you change to some aftermarket exhausts because they screw up the torque curve compared to the stock pipes. The PCV can compensate for some of that where the VFCIII can't (remove fuel). Think about why it would be necessary to remove fuel compared to the stock pipes............................ The whole idea is to increase performance by adding air flow and fuel to match. Think about it.
You can switch to a PCV and spend money for a dyno tune or an autotune module. You can try the new $450 Maxximus. Or you can keep what you have and let Lloydz reprogram your ECU for about $225. Options are good.
Popping is the nature of a large V-Twin that is subjected to EPA tunes. Putting a louder exhaust on the bike makes it worse. I don't think you can get rid of it entirely, but a proper tune helps.
Whatever you do, increase your RPM limit to 6400 or 6500 RPM. Whenever you want to show your taillights to a GL1800 Goldwing, shift at 6000.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
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| Thanks, Ronnie. I may just give the lloydz ECU a try when I install the cams. I believe you said that +2 is added to the timing? Does this have to be done? I have a timing wheel now set to +2 and in 5th and 6th gears on the highway at cruise speed when I accelerate I still get some pinging. |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | When Lloydz did my ECU, I was told that 2 degrees advance was included. I believe that is true of mine because the reflash not only helped the low end torque response, but I had to start using a little higher octane gas in hot weather than I had been using previously. However, this was before Lloydz came out with his adjustable timing wheel. They did mine back in 2010. I do not know if the reflash still includes the timing advance. A call to Lloydz might better answer the question of whether it still includes the timing advance or not.
I've talked to people who had the early flash like mine and then got the adjustable timing wheel. Many of those people ended up selling the wheel because they had to run it straight up -- no advance, so they were getting no benefit from it. So they took it back off.
I've talked to people who had the reflash done after Lloydz came out with the adjustable timing wheel, and they seem to be able to run both the ECU and the adjustable timing wheel together with no problems. That tells me that the reflash no longer includes the extra 2 degrees advance, and you can benefit from the timing wheel.
Get the cams as soon as you are ready. Call Kevin at Southern Motorworx http://www.southernmotorworx.com/ and get his opinion on the new Maxximus reflash. He is evaluating it now. If he gives it a thumbs up, it may be the way to go in the future.
Don't be surprised if he tells you that the Maxximus won't do anything for you that the VFCIII ( or a PCV), along with your timing wheel and Lloydz relashed ECU won't do. The end goal is to optimize the operating parameters of the modifications done to your bike. There are a few different ways of getting to the same place. The Maxximus tuner may just be another way to get to the same place.
I have seen Kevin say that there is a learning curve associated with the Maxximus, and he was still learning.
With Lloydz, you just send them your ECU and it comes back done.
I can tell you this much with certainty. Stock, my bike was no match for GL1800 Goldwings. Slower in the quarter mile, slower on roll-ons, and slower on the top speeds. Fuel economy was slightly better than the Goldwings.
I added Lloydz top filter, a VFCIII, Lloydz VM1 cams, and Lloydz ECU. The VFCIII was tuned using the road test method. Any of the three tuners I've mentioned in this thread can tell you how to do that yourself. No dyno needed. Stock exhaust. With just those mods, my bike is now consistently a half second quicker, about 5 MPH faster in the quarter mile ( on an official dragstrip) on any given day, than the same Goldwings that used to beat me. It has stronger roll-on (passing power) than the Goldwings. It has about 15 MPH more top speed than the same Goldwings on any given day. It still gets slightly better fuel economy than the Goldwings. Never been on a dyno. It doesn't need to be.
If the new Maxximus tuner can do better than that, go for it.
You can do the same thing with a PCV that has had 1000 RPM added to its programming. A session on a dyno will be required, or you will have to buy and install the autotune module. Even with that, a dyno session is still recommended. More expense.
If you are running the stock exhaust, the VFCIII works just fine. Even with one of a handful of aftermarket slip-on mufflers added (that don't change anything but the sound) , the VFCIII works fine.
If you choose an aftermarket exhaust system and the seller tells you that you "Have to use a PCV to tune it right" (meaning take some fuel out) they are probably not lying to you. However, ask yourself if that exhaust is adding or subtracting performance if you have to take fuel out of the tune.
On the Vision, the stock exhaust is capable of supporting at least 135 horsepower. See Lloydz dyno charts.
Increased Vision performance comes from increased air intake, increased fuel to go with it, and better airflow management (cams). The proper ECU tune tops it all off. Exhaust changes only change the sound. None really help performance, and some actually hurt it (compared to the stock exhaust). The stock exhaust is actually a very good performer on the Vision. There are some aftermarket ones that can match it, but none that can really improve on it when you look at the total torque curve. As I've said before, " total performance" is much more than just peak numbers. It is the usable area under the torque curve. To that end, Lloydz VM1 cams add another 1500 RPM to the curve, and you need to rev to use all of it, and have the proper tune to feed it.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | Update:
KevinX has just given a thumbs up to the new Maximus tuner. It does what it claims.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | Update to the update:
Kevin confirms that the Maximus tuner does what it claims, and also confirms that it is just another way to get to the same place in performance. He told me that if you already have the performance parts we have been discussing (fuel control, cams, timing wheel, and ECU flash from Lloydz) this new Maximus will not do anything to improve that.
If a person is starting from scratch with a stock bike, the Maximus will do the same thing by itself that the timing wheel, fuel control, and ECU flash do together. It can replace all of them, and match the performance gains they provide.
I specifically asked Kevin if the Maximus could improve on my setup, and his answer was no. It's just another path to the same place.
The Maximus combines the functions of the timing wheel, fuel controller, and ECU reflash all into one unit. Thus it can do what they do. If somebody is starting from scratch, it can eliminate the need to use an adjustable timing wheel and a fuel controller, since it does those functions in addition to reflashing the ECU and raising the rev limiter in all six gears.
If I were starting from scratch again, the Maximus would probably be the way to go. Since you have already spent the money for timing control and fuel control, the question now is whether to have Lloydz reflash your ECU for $225 to finish, or sell your fuel controller and timing wheel and get the $450 Maximus and tune with it.
Options are good.
Ronnie
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 5
| Thanks Ronnie |
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V92 cams in a 106
