|
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I for one brake primarily with the front brake as the conditions permit and do not rely primarily on the rear in those perfect condition. The linked braking system on the Vision and on other bikes are very adequate for all types of braking. I've thought I wanted total independant braking, but have gained a great deal of confidence in the linked system. In a hard turn, having the need to brake, I apply the rear first with a feather on the front. I had to do that a few times on my RT 250 run through West Virginia. I avoided diaster when a cager literally cut me off, I'm sure unknowningly, in a very tight left hand turn, nearly scrapping floorboard. In applying the brakes without panic, the bike uprighted and I maintained lane control and allowed the car to proceed. It was not a smooth turn and I was even bouncing a little just prior to the near miss, a sure recipe for trouble, especially for me. I would hope we all would know our machines well enough to do what needed to be done at the right time, albeit, none of us are perfect. |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 340
Regina Saskatchewan Canada | I have pretty much used both brakes from the very beginning and it has become habit. What I have tried to perfect in more recent years is how to maximize stopping power without wheel lockup. The technic is taught in advanced motorcycle training courses. It is when braking hard you progressively apply more force to the front brake as the weight of the motorcycle transfers from the back wheel to the front wheel at the same time applying less force to the back brake so that it does not lock up because all the weight is being transferred to the front wheel. Of course this in a straight line under idea conditions. But if there is gravel or wet roads or it is in a corner that changes everything. You have to be able to adapt your braking to suit the situation but regardless of the situation your best stopping power is always using both front and rear brakes together in the right balance for the situation. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 79
Memphis,Tn. | Having owned a dozen non-ABS bikes, then one with ABS (Concours14) - and now back to a Vision without ABS, I'm a believer.
IMO, the ABS systems are worth the money. |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | "I've learned that Victory's system is designed for people who rely on the rear brake."
What is the basis for this statement? Not calling you out or anything, I just haven't seen anything like that written before and I would think the Safety people who allow them to build bikes in the first place would have significant issue with this if true.
What I was eluding to in my earlier post was not the so much technique... The front of the bike shouldn't dive. Shouldn't be able to. Look at even a sport bike doing a stoppy.... the front forks are NOT compressing much (if the bike is set up correctly).. They compress, but not "dive"...
My minimal experience with the Vision, after I thought about it... was that the rear brake pedal only seemed to act like if you were using front and rear normally... adding the front, just made it stop shorter... I never noticed it "dive" no matter how hard I tried and I always test what happens when I plant the brakes when I test ride a bike. I test them independently then together... just to see.
My concern/comment are that a few people mentioned the front of the bike "diving" and I wonder if THAT is an issue... Is there something allowing or causing excessive braking. Is there a point where the mechanical brakes are just too good (loose term) and ABS is almost required to keep them from locking?
Just posing the questions... I like linked brakes, love ABS... Don't notice the effects of either unless it's a panic stop, and I don't ride any differently on any of my bikes.... weather they have linked or not, abs or not. At least I don't notice that I ride any different... maybe I do, but I don't think I do.
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 377
O'Neill, Nebraska | lowtone9 - 2009-09-17 4:31 PM
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but this was not a tank slapper, and this had nothing to do with linked brakes. This was a dude panicking and locking up the rear. If you don't immediately see this, please get some instruction. I recommend the MSF course to start.
I'm very sorry it happened, and hope that he heals quickly.
Kinda thought this too. Now to be honest...I've had a panic situation happen to me and also made bad choices. Luckily they didn't have this result. One trick I learned years ago in the MSF is that head into the corners at a slower speed and accelerate through them. Sure beat having an 'oh sh*t' moment and having to hit the brakes when you run out of road.
The Vision is certainly not made for off road excursions! |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 26
Milwaukee, WI United States | Miles, the statement about linked brakes being designed for "rear brakers" (no offence taken),was learned from talking to dealership salesmen. It's the answer I got when I asked after taking my Vision for the test ride. It's also the answer I got when I bought a GW years ago. At that time they had just come out with the linked brakes (I think it was 83) and they still had an 82 on the floor so I bought it instead. It's also been a while since the last time I took the MSF but as I remember the instructor used many stats (collected from surveys and police reports, etc.) to support the concepts they teach. When they were teaching braking and the importance of using the front brake he had stats that claimed that a large percentage of accidents are caused by riders relying on mostly, or all, back braking.
I can see the bike companies wanting to add safety features like linked brakes to big touring bikes that aren't really meant for pushing the envelope on the dragon's tail and thereby hoping to reduce accidents for those out there who may not understand the physics of what happens when brakes are applied on a bike. And I don't have a problem with that. If I had my druthers I go without linked brake because I do like to push the envelope on the twisties and I'd like that feeling of having 100% control of each brake independently.
It's interesting that when Honda came out with a souped up version of the GW called the Valkyrie they didn't include linked brakes. I don't know much about crotch rockets but I can't remember hearing that they put linked brakes on them either. Might this be because these kind of bikes ARE meant for riding conditions that are more aggressive and hopefully controlled by riders that are expected to have a greater command of more acceleration and the need for proper braking techniques?
I love the Vision and will take my time learning how to use the linked brakes so that I can use them to their best efficiency. My original question to Spock and for starting this thread was just for that purpose - to try to learn and get perspective from other riders. It is doing that. Thanks to you and the others on this forum.
As far as the front end diving (perhaps a need thread would be good). I am only comparing this to may past bikes (GW, Valkyrie, and various 750's) and rides I've bummed on friend's bikes. It just seem to dive a little more than I'm used too. Perhaps I need to have it checked but frankly, I like the ride so much the way it is I'd hate to change it. I'm only worried about it when that emergency comes along so I'm trying to get myself prepared.
Oh, and as far as the comment about knowing the physics of braking - I'm talking about what I learned in MSF. They did a great job of teaching it so that you understood not just what to do but what's happening when you do it. I hope they still teach it that way. Everyone should take it. |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | gplongworth - 2009-09-21 10:32 AM
.....It's also been a while since the last time I took the MSF but as I remember the instructor used many stats (collected from surveys and police reports, etc.) to support the concepts they teach. When they were teaching braking and the importance of using the front brake he had stats that claimed that a large percentage of accidents are caused by riders relying on mostly, or all, back braking.
......
Oh, and as far as the comment about knowing the physics of braking - I'm talking about what I learned in MSF. They did a great job of teaching it so that you understood not just what to do but what's happening when you do it. I hope they still teach it that way. Everyone should take it.
Call it a braking physics 101. There are 500 level courses out there. I took the MSF course in fall '07. They talked about using braking to help in certain situations and they told us some of the pitfalls as well as some ways to avoid them. Good stuff, all.
On the other hand, I started college in physics and went on to get a mechanical enigneering degree and then went on to grad school in engineering as well. I have had a special interest in the physics of moving bodies. I still have not djinned out how a tap of the front brake can help me dive into a corner harder. All other sources tell me I should be risking a highside, but if I'm taking a curve posted 35 at 50 and it turns out to be a smidge tight towards the exit, I tap the front brakes down to 48 or so and the bike leans a bit harder and seems to bite in a bit better.
The dynamics of a motorcycle, especially when turning and/or braking, are extremely complicated and no one truly understands it all. Just google "countersteering" and you will see that no one agrees how even that works, much less braking. It's like trying to unscrew the inscrutable.
Which is why although I may do something stupid like light a smoke while riding down the interstate, I basically ride like a wimp on the twisties or if the road surface offers anything less than optimal traction. I know just enough to understand that I'm riding an enigma. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | I don't think linked brakes caused the crash, that was the original question. The MSF is a great tool to learn more about motorcycling and safety on the streets. But if you really want to learn how to ride the twisties and how to control your motorcycle at speed, then you should take a track school. I've done two, California Superbike School and Class Motorcycle School, they will help you be a better street rider. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States |
It's not my intention to get into a discussion on braking technique. Suffice it to say that manufacturers put dual brakes or bigger brakes on the front for a reason, and it's not to encourage you to do the majority of your braking with the rear...
I"m not an authority on braking. One thing I do think hinders more beefy rear braking from a manufacturer standpoint , I think, is that final drive gets in the way. To me, just mho, one would stand the greatest chance of loosing control applying majority front brake as opposed to rear wheel just becasue rear wheel is fixed. I agree , the art of not locking up is paramount to a rider |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | I also do not think linked brakes caused this. The issue is emergency braking in a turn. Breaking hard stands the bike up, or you go down cause your friction patch goes past the stiction point. Especially when you hit the front brakes. Simple physics! |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | WAIT ! My brakes are 'linked'?
And I just keep driving like I used to - some front - some rear - whatever is needed in the situation. Has this changed?
And NO braking in a turn - this just wants to make the bike 'stand-up' .... do all your braking BEFORE you go in ... has THIS changed?
I think SPOCK will enlighten us all before this ends..... after he has digested and re-lived the moment 5000 times.
Most of you wouldn't know if your actions triggered the 'link' - you would just realize you're slowing - with ZERO knowledge about how much of that process was caused by front or rear brake. The same thing goes for ANTI-LOCK - you wouldn't know it was doing anything in MOST real-world driving. And if you did - it would be at the point of disaster - and who (wants to) remembers that?
I learned how to brake from flying down mountain logging-truck roads at high speed on dirt bikes - and you had to understand what each brake did in order to stay out of the trees - or over a cliff. And for ME - this translated into understanding of how to use both brakes on a road bike. And I learned how to make a 600 lb bike slide sideways - because this puts more braking force on the pavement - without dropping it. Learn this because 'School of Hard Knocks' on a bike will kill/maim you - or keep you broke fixing smashed machines. Don't rely on linked or anti-lock systems - learn how to use your tools properly.
P.S. At my age - I want anti-lock on my next Vision..... sorry for the lecture
|
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 26
Milwaukee, WI United States |  Don, After digesting all the replies I do believe you've summed it up best! Thanks for the lecture.
Class dismissed....  |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 64
| "The same thing goes for ANTI-LOCK - you wouldn't know it was doing anything in MOST real-world driving. And if you did - it would be at the point of disaster - and who (wants to) remembers that?"
That's because anti-lock ISN'T doing anything in most real-world driving. When it IS activated, you would have to be numb to not feel it.
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 140
| VisionTex - 2009-09-22 11:38 AM
I don't think linked brakes caused the crash, that was the original question. The MSF is a great tool to learn more about motorcycling and safety on the streets. But if you really want to learn how to ride the twisties and how to control your motorcycle at speed, then you should take a track school. I've done two, California Superbike School and Class Motorcycle School, they will help you be a better street rider.
Did you do CLASS on your Vision? |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | LT9, no I did the Class three times @ Grattan back in the '80s on my CX-650T. I think the Vision would be a good bike to ride at a Class school. There were all types of bikes in the classes I took, it is about all bikes,they just have to pass a tech inspection. I felt Class is a very good riding school and it taught me how to ride smoother. Plus you get to be on the track on your own bike. Check out the Class website, there is a lot of info there. I might do it again, but my leathers have shrunk for some reason...  |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 140
| VisionTex - 2009-09-26 10:08 AM
LT9, no I did the Class three times @ Grattan back in the '80s on my CX-650T. I think the Vision would be a good bike to ride at a Class school. There were all types of bikes in the classes I took, it is about all bikes,they just have to pass a tech inspection. I felt Class is a very good riding school and it taught me how to ride smoother. Plus you get to be on the track on your own bike. Check out the Class website, there is a lot of info there. I might do it again, but my leathers have shrunk for some reason...
Yeah, I've done two, both at Barber. One on a sportbike, and one on a Vision. I just wanted to see if anyone else had done this on a Vision, to, you know, compare notes.
The track teaches smoothness, and CLASS is, as far as I know, the only way to get out there on a Vision. Great fun, and good for you.
My Aerostich seems to be shrinking around the waist, and expanding up around the shoulders. It might even be getting longer. Weird.
Edited by lowtone9 2009-09-26 12:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Just watched the video and looks like he hit a bump just before the headshake started as the bike bounced. Over correction perhaps?
I'm not sure how the linked brake system would have caused this crash. Had many linked systems over the years and as stated they are designed for dumbies. Studies show most folks rear brake and forget the front in a panick situation. So th Victory designer added the link to dumby proof the bike. With only one piston engaged you'd be hard pressed to tell.
As to the excessive fork dive? Three things, oil, springs and preload. The Vision sags way too much so I'm adding some preload over winter. The sag gets really noticeable as the oil ages. Not sure what weight rider Victory aimed the Vision suspension at but most manufacturers base sprngs on a 150-170 lb rider. So if you weigh more, the spring is way too soft for you. I'm also adding a fork brace if SuperBrace gets one made.
Sorry to hear about the getoff, heal quickly...... T |
|
| |
Vision Crash - Linked braking ????
