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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I bought the PCV because I thought it was the best one for my bike. It may not be but I own it so I use it. As I said before I put it and Lloyds intake at the same time so I can't say which did what. I don't use the auto tune sensors. I plan on having cams put in and that's it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Wow, what a conversation! I leave you guys for two days.....
Anyway I think everyone has it right but it getting caught up in the language differences. When people quote from PC's website and e-mails note that they generally say that you can TUNE in real time, and it is constantly TUNING. So yes the PC works in real-time. But are you going to still be TUNING in 3 years, or will you finally have settled on a map by then, LOL!
Once you settle on a map it is MY UNDERSTANDING that you accept it and then it does like Kevin says and it runs a fixed RPMxThrottle position fueling from then on out. (I say MY UNDERSTANDING because although I install many PCV's, they are all dyno tuned, every Auto-tune I install is "tuned" by the customer on his own time.)
So then you can always turn the TUNING back "on" and redo your map using the supplied wide band sensors if you so choose. Or you can leave it on and be constantly tuning (which is what it seems that Turk is doing). BUT what I'm worried about is eventually the O2 sensors are going to wear out, it is nature of the beast. I replace the ones in my LM2 every year, the place that does my dyno work does them every 6 months. So for those that leave the TUNING "on" constantly so they can say "look, my PC is always on, always working in real time" I worry that may bite you in the ass after a certain amount of time. Eventually the O2's will start to give slightly false signals and your real A/F will be off. I don't think PC recommends that a person leave the auto-tune on "forever", I think the intent is to use the Auto-tune in lieu of a dyno, make a map for yourself, then turn it off.
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Lastly I do agree with Kevin, stock dispacment motors in my shop I try and sell the Lloydz VFCIII. Big motors get a PCIII or PCV. REALLY big motors get both believe it or not. Like he said the PC's have a place, those are the places I see that each unit works best. Markup on each unit is about the same, but setting up a PC can be more labor, so tecnically there is more money to be made by selling PC's all day long.
The VFC vs PC debate will rage on for a long time with misinformation coming from both sides, but I tell you I learned SO MUCH about both units after I bought myself a stand-alone 02 sensor (LM2) and could see the effects of different fuelers ON THE STREET. Again, they both have their place.
On most bikes I can set up a VFC with my LM2 to have the same or better results than a PC, basically making my brain the "Auto-Tune". But no one but us mechanics has an aftermarket A/F meter laying around to tune the VFC's - that is why the PCV with Auto-tune is selling like hotcakes. So I tell guys that when you bring the bike to me I can save you a bunch of money over a PCV by installing a VFC and setting it up on-the-street with my LM2. Conversely I like the fine tunabilty of a PC on bigger motors that may have strange combinations and so I recommend the PC right out of the gate.
Also: the load based argument. I'm just a simple man, I can't wax philosophical about pulsewidth and voltage speeds, and technical crap like that, but I can tell you from real world experience that the load based aspect of the VFC's is AWESOME. That is why some really big motors get both controllers, a PC for a basic speed VS throttle postion fueling, the a VFC to add fuel based on the load of the motor. It is common for me to break in a custom big-bore motor with a VFC because I can rely on it to add fuel precisely, QUICKLY, and based on load, then swap to a PC after the 500 mile break-in.
Anyway I can go on for a long time about tuning. Every day is a learning experience with different technologies and methods. I definelty don't know it all yet, but every day gets me more experience and thus more knowledge. Also I do listen to those that have more experience and knowledge, and factor that into my decisions as well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Thanks Rylan, that helps. Like I said, I already own the PCV so I'll use it. And I only paid about 200.00 new so it wasn't that bad. One of these days within the next six months or so I hope be where one of you three are installing cams and dyno tuning and I'll simply have cams installed and a map programmed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nicely put Rylan |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Rylan, thanks for the concise words. You repeated what I tried to say said over and over. That the only aftermarket set-up that can "auto-tune" without the customer physically making adjustments to the unit is the PC 5 with AUTOTUNE. As you so succinctly stated........
"But no one but us mechanics has an aftermarket A/F meter laying around to tune the VFC's - that is why the PCV with Auto-tune is selling like hotcakes."
Thanks for making my point and stating it so well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| ScoreBo - 2012-03-08 4:28 PM
...it states that it "adjusts the fuel map while riding." Are we saying you have to commit the tuning map to the base map version in order for this to happen?
Another paragraph states "The Auto Tune kit can be configured to run and correct at all times or by using the "map switch port" on the PCV. You can set it up so that you can switch back and forth between the tuning modes and the base map settings. You can also configure the Auto Tune kit to wait until the bike is at a certain operating temperature before beginning to make adjustments."...
No, you don't HAVE to commit the trims to the base map for the unit to adjust the fuel map while riding. Think about it this way, there are THREE "tables" in play in a PC-V w/Autotune setup. The first table is the base fuel map that is stored in the PC-V. The second table is the Trim table stored by the Autotune. The third table is the target AFR map. The beauty of this setup is that all the rider does is set his/her preferred AFR targets (which typically come preconfigured, although many of us like to alter them a little). The autotune then uses those targets and self adjusts it's own trim tables so that the aggregate of the trim table and the PC-V's native fuel table yield the target AFR out the exhaust. Periodically, you can upload this trim table to the PC-V, which will add or subtract those trims to the base map, and zero the trim table. Doing this upload a few times will get the base PC-V fuel tables right on the money... so much so, that folks sometimes disconnect their autotune altogether. Personally, I don't see any reason to ever disconnect it, since it continuously monitors exhaust, it can indirectly compensate for varying conditions.... it basically is a slightly laggy (fractions of a second) closed loop system that the rider can control.
And, as Rylan stated, there is a place to run both controllers simultaneously. My previous bike, an '06 KP ran both the VFC3 and a PowerCommander 3usb. It had a 110" high compression high output motor making almost 135hp/145tq, and had a 40shot of N2O on top of that. The PC flattened out my fuel curve, while the VFC handled the extra fuel requirements of load and the nitrous circuit. It is so finely tuned though, that even with all that power, it runs as smooth as a stock bike. And, it's for sale at my local dealer, Austin's! (plug)
Hope that helps.
Edited by Turk 2012-03-09 7:18 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Turk - 2012-03-09 4:10 AM
No, you don't HAVE to commit the trims to the base map for the unit to adjust the fuel map while riding. Think about it this way, there are THREE "tables" in play in a PC-V w/Autotune setup. The first table is the base fuel map that is stored in the PC-V. The second table is the Trim table stored by the Autotune. The third table is the target AFR map. The beauty of this setup is that all the rider does is set his/her preferred AFR targets (which typically come preconfigured, although many of us like to alter them a little). The autotune then uses those targets and self adjusts it's own trim tables so that the aggregate of the trim table and the PC-V's native fuel table yield the target AFR out the exhaust. Periodically, you can upload this trim table to the PC-V, which will add or subtract those trims to the base map, and zero the trim table. Doing this upload a few times will get the base PC-V fuel tables right on the money... so much so, that folks sometimes disconnect their autotune altogether. Personally, I don't see any reason to ever disconnect it, since it continuously monitors exhaust, it can indirectly compensate for varying conditions.... it basically is a slightly laggy (fractions of a second) closed loop system that the rider can control.
And, as Rylan stated, there is a place to run both controllers simultaneously. My previous bike, an '06 KP ran both the VFC3 and a PowerCommander 3usb. It had a 110" high compression high output motor making almost 135hp/145tq, and had a 40shot of N2O on top of that. The PC flattened out my fuel curve, while the VFC handled the extra fuel requirements of load and the nitrous circuit. It is so finely tuned though, that even with all that power, it runs as smooth as a stock bike. And, it's for sale at my local dealer, Austin's! (plug)
Hope that helps.
That is a perfect explanation and exactly as I understand it.
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 43
Rossville, IL | I'm only trying to understand, could someone please explain how "load based" works and why it's better than having a post corrected A/F ratio using the Autotune?
I'm certainly not dissing the VFC as it certainly has it's place and it is a very well made product. I do have a couple of things that I don't understand using it however and I think it had Lloyd slightly perplexed while on the dyno at the AVR last fall with both my bike and a friend's.
My bike is an '09 Vision with Lloyds VM1 cams, HC pistons, ECM rev extend mod, intake, Stage I mufflers, & stock mapping. My friend that was there has a '10 Ness Vision the exact same setup, only with Stage II mufflers. We both were running the VFC and having the same issues with the bikes running too rich, and getting 25-28 mpg at best.
We both had Lloyd run the bikes on the dyno and even with the VFC completely turned off, Lloyd said it was running too rich across the entire RPM band. My bike was on the dyno first, so he suggested that we try a PCV and see what would happen. He knows his stuff and a short time later, he had the bike dialed in and running great. The next day, Lloyd put the other bike on the dyno and had the same problem with the VFC adding too much fuel even when turned off. In went the PCV and again, he dialed in a great running bike. When I looked at the fuel tables, it is interesting to note that the PCV only has positive numbers, no negatives.
Even before Lloyd had the bike on the dyno, I had some issues with the bike pinging on heavy load. To make a long story short, I sent the heads, pistons, & jugs back to him this winter at his recommendation and he discovered that one of the heads had 6 cc's less volume which shot the compression up in one cylinder. After some fantastic machine work, he corrected the cc's, did a 3 angle valve job, and did a basic porting job on the valve pockets. I also installed an Autotune and started with his fuel map as the base. The bike runs better than I could imagine and I'm very happy with it now. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| ScoreBo - 2012-05-25 1:28 PM
I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons.
Wow, great numbers without running a top filter! Can you post up your dyno chart? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | ScoreBo - 2012-05-25 1:28 PM
I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons.
You did these numbers without cams??? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | RT, I did cams.  VM1s |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Here is a S1L1 (not mine, but Lloyd says they are all about the same) and mine. I have to ask Lloyd to send me the color version.
(2011 Cams - Dyno.jpg)
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 2011 Cams - Dyno.jpg (60KB - 4 downloads)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Oh yeah, Lloyd told me that the intake plate adds the +7HP to the area in the middle (more mid-range power) of the power band. I just didn't want the noise. |
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PCV with Autotune ALERT
