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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | No one is immune to hard times. Just look at Ford and GM. Polaris's Victory line is a viable alternative to gas guzzlers. ATV's and snowmobiles are something the public will do without when the economy tanks. HD and Honda are not immune. Didnt Honda just close the plant in the USA? HD is the only brand that has been extensively cloned. There are a large number of businesses making parts based on HD design. That doesnt gauranty HD's future. In fact, it cuts into their profits. People will pay $150k for a bare bones HD knock off when they can have the real thing for much less. Victory is not a major player like the rest. Companies like Ford, GM and HD are icons that many in the USA feel should be preserved. Not many realize that Polaris is one of the last remaining American companies that do what they do. It is very possible they will not survive. I lived in a steel town in the late 80's. The steel industry was pulling out in a big way. I worked with someone that lost his job with a steel mill. He told me once " I had a great job, I worked nights. I pushed a broom for 4 hrs and slept fo 4. Its a shame they went out of business". I asked him if he thought they would still be in business if he pushed that broom for 8 hrs? This kind of thinking in American manufacturing starts at the top and works its way down. We were once the best in the world. Now we have outsourced and import. Victory has made a big dent in a market where few small companies survive. If they dont, we will all have an original that some one will try to revive and clone 50 yrs from now. Should I ride it or put it on the shelf next to my pet rock?
Edited by cjnoho 2008-11-29 1:27 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | Teach - 2008-11-28 9:25 PM
Its been my experience that these magazines run hot and cold so I NEVER put any stock in what they have to say. A year ago the magazines were raving about the Vision when it was obviously the inferior choice in the shootout, I didn't see anyone here making statements to set the record straight. The old believe none of what you hear and half of what you see argument, lol.
Anyhow I wanted to add a new twist to the discussion: What happens to your Vision in 3 years when Victory closes its doors? Now I'm not starting any rumors but it is no revelation that Victory has been operating in the red and Polaris has carried the MC division as times have been good. However the economy is turning a bit and the MC division is cutting into corporate profits. So it only makes sense that the non-profiting company would be closed, yes?
A somber but real possibility Teach, especially in this economy. Of course, I would like to think that as long as Victory makes a great bike, Polaris will see a long term advantage to supporting the Victory line through the tough times. It take far more that 10 years to see a profit from a new product like Victory motorcycles, but from my experience, Victory is a great motorcycle, hindered only by poor product support from Polaris. But maybe that just underscores your point; if Polaris is not willing to provide good customer support for Victory, why should we think they would keep the line if indeed it cuts too far into their profits.
Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but if Polaris stopped production of the Vic, I would keep mine as long as I could find a good shop to provide service. I would then likely begin a search for a comparable replacement, but given what is on the market, I am not sure that search would prove fruitful.
For now I think I will just enjoy my Vision, and hope for the best. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Im not into ATV's or snowmobiles. So I cant really speak for Polaris' other customers. My biggest complaint in LA is lack of dealers and factory support. I have to give buyers of early Victorys a thumbs up for sticking with them. But I cant help thinking Polaris should have learned something from their early days. If you make a quality product, you should have no problem stepping up to the plate when things arent right. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 175
Colorado | None of us can say that Victory will be around as a company for our life time, its our hope that they will be. Everything is a progression of the time, ask current 65 Mustang or 67 Camero owners if they stopped loving their cars. Sure it takes more work finding parts, can be frustrating finding those parts needed but chances are high you will find the answer is they still find parts some 40 + years later and owners are even more passionate today about those cars than they were yesterday. How are Indian owners still finding parts, did the brand fold? Of course we know the company did, the owners haven't and truly neither did the brand!
Someone passionate about the brand will pick up and start manufactuiring parts. I love my Victory's, riding them, maintaining them and talking to people interested enough to ask questions about them. My own future is not guaranteed. I didn't buy the bikes as a financial investment, but a tool to build my portfolio of memories on and they gain personal value with every successful trip Dee and I take and the people we meet. Victory is here for my lifetime, like a marriage, things may get difficult but its the good times that get you through the bad times and in the end I will cherish every moment because I value the the bike I owned, a Victory!
The question is how much value do you have in what you own? What constitutes that value and how willing you are to work at it? I know...ride on!
Edited by badnvegas 2008-11-29 12:45 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | I have been riding bikes since I was 9 and I am now 53. I have ridden almost every cruiser and touring bike on the market as well as many of the sport touring and some sport bikes. I have had Harley’s, Honda’s, Kawasaki’s, BMW’s, Victory’s and others. I am not tied to any brand and will buy the best bike on the market. My riding style has changed over the years to where I most enjoy doing long trips across this great country of ours but I also ride to work and around the city also. I was looking for the best touring bike that also would be fun to ride around town and to work and I found it in the Victory Vision. The Vision has the Harley touring class bikes beat by a mile. For touring the most important things are comfort, handling, wind and weather protection, electronics, reliability and then storage. I would prefer to own a Harley if they could build a good bike but they are too hung up with the past to look towards the future. I have two friends that have sold Harley’s for years and they have ridden my Vision and they were blown away. They said I wish Harley could build a bike as good as this. They also said I hope my prospects don’t test ride a Vision cause it would be all over if they did. To say the Harley has better refinements than the Vision is laughable for the most part. The storage on the Harley is only slightly larger than the Vision and this does not begin to trump the Vision’s far superior comfort, handling, performance, wind and weather protection and electronics. Harley started a project in 2002 to fix problems with their 28 year old touring frames to give the bike better handling. In 2009 they finally brought to market the modest changes that did help improve handling but is still not close to the Vision. Victory started the Vision project in 2002 and in the same amount of time it took Harley to make modest frame changes Victory developed a whole new world class touring bike from the ground up. This is amazing on the part of Victory’s leadership. Harley needs to start innovating. There stock has fallen from $74.93 a share to $11.54 a share over the last two years. And to the question if Victory will be in business you need to read the financials and 10K reports. Polaris is in better financial condition and has better ratios than Harley in many key areas. To look at a few based on the last reported quarter Polaris has a revenue per employee of $181,250 versus Harleys $157,253. Polaris’ return on average equity is 166.22% versus Harley’s 26.54% and Polaris’ return on average assets is 28.95% versus Harley’s 9.55%. Polaris’ net profit is 9.89% to Harley’s 10.85% but as Victory adds more accessories and appeal they gain the upper hand here as well. The analysts are much more bullish on Polaris than on Harley. A friend of mine’s brother just retired from Harley after 20 years as a senior VP and he told me there is a lot of trouble at Harley. They have labor union issues, there dealer inventories are very high, there sales are down and all the analysts say they need to innovate. The board is not happy and you will probably see leadership changes over the next year. They have been resting on their laurels for too long and it is catching up with them just like it did with Chevy and Ford. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I poke around on Harley forums (plus BMW and Goldwing) and the long-time Harley owners are coming to the realization that that it's just not the same company they bought into years ago. They are disappointed that they can't do all the maintenance on their bikes anymore and their dealerships have become Taj Mahals that are staffed by a bunch of yuppies who only care about how much they can take you for today. Old-school relationships that were formed during Harley's lean years have been pushed aside for the bottom line. We have fun with the fact that Sonny Barger has a Vison but he is the poster child for things to come. Guys who would never in a million years ride anything else are too old to be treated as second class citizens and Victory is determined to prove themselves as a legitimate American alternative. Flag waving has always been the #1 card for Harley guys and Victory can give them what they want and need with a clear conscience. The fact that the Vision runs toe-to-toe with the foreign bikes is gravy. I think Victory has timed it perfectly. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | SongFan - 2008-11-29 5:22 PM I poke around on Harley forums (plus BMW and Goldwing) and the long-time Harley owners are coming to the realization that that it's just not the same company they bought into years ago. They are disappointed that they can't do all the maintenance on their bikes anymore and their dealerships have become Taj Mahals that are staffed by a bunch of yuppies who only care about how much they can take you for today. Old-school relationships that were formed during Harley's lean years have been pushed aside for the bottom line. We have fun with the fact that Sonny Barger has a Vison but he is the poster child for things to come. Guys who would never in a million years ride anything else are too old to be treated as second class citizens and Victory is determined to prove themselves as a legitimate American alternative. Flag waving has always been the #1 card for Harley guys and Victory can give them what they want and need with a clear conscience. The fact that the Vision runs toe-to-toe with the foreign bikes is gravy. I think Victory has timed it perfectly. I couldn't have said it better myself. The Vision is on the map and has put Victory on the map. I wanted a tourer that sat like a cruiser and Victory put the perfect combo together, and the timing couldn't be better. The only way the competition can stymie the move is to talk it down in the rags, but the rider knows the deal. Go Victory! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | If you buy something with resale factor in mind rather than fun factor, you'll be disappointed every time. Whether Victory makes it or not. I'm proud to admit I was open minded enough to try something different. Before commiting to this new Vision my research on the motor and drivetrain showed me that Polaris was commited to quality. No ones perfect and they have had their problems, but problems have been few concidering their young age. In my area, dealers are far and few between. It bothered me at first. But, after a year of ownership, my problems with this bike have been few. If they dont make it, I can see this bike going for years without much more than normal maitenence. |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | cjnoho - 2008-11-30 2:16 AM If you buy something with resale factor in mind rather than fun factor, you'll be disappointed every time. Whether Victory makes it or not. I'm proud to admit I was open minded enough to try something different. Before commiting to this new Vision my research on the motor and drivetrain showed me that Polaris was commited to quality. No ones perfect and they have had their problems, but problems have been few concidering their young age. In my area, dealers are far and few between. It bothered me at first. But, after a year of ownership, my problems with this bike have been few. If they dont make it, I can see this bike going for years without much more than normal maitenence. Where are you getting the idea that Polaris – Victory might not make it or is in any way in trouble? What SEC filings, financials and analyst reports are you reading? I have studied their financials, read all the SEC filings and have read many of the analyst reports. A sign of Polaris’s strength is their repurchase of 2,394,000 shares in the last 9 months and approval to repurchase of an additional 3,981,000 shares. They also paid a $.38 a share dividend to share holders on August 15 and also on November 17th. Yes the economic slowdown has affected the motorcycle cruiser and touring industry but it has hit Harley much harder than Victory. Harley’s motorcycle sales according to their third quarter 10-Q report were down 13. 7% while Victory’s were only down 2% according to their 10-Q report for the third quarter. Also Harley announced it would ship far fewer bikes in 08 as it had in 07 and it laid off 730 employees and temporarily shut down some of its plants. Harley posted a 23% decrease in net income for the first 9 months of 08 compared with 07 and Polaris posted a 9% gain in net income for the same 9 month period over last year. Based on these facts I would advise selling any Harley stock you may have and investing in Polaris and buying a Victory over a Harley. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | I think if you bought the Vision for resale value your going to take a beating. As seen folks are buying new out the door 3-4 thousand less than list. So if you ride 2500 miles a year, I hate to say this, but you should have bought that HD. If you ride and I mean ride your motorcycle a lot, then buying the Vision was one of your lifes wiser decisions. 
Edited by VisionTex 2008-11-30 2:26 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 447
Northeastern Penna. | One note of interest on this topic. Take a good look at all the motorcycles 4 SALE in your area and see how many are Harleys.Granted, they probably comprise most of the sales for several reasons,
however,they are not getting their asking price. I've seen this for some years now.Harleys are
way over priced and resale is nothing more than a Grand illusion! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | I don't think CJ's impying that Polaris or Victory is going to fail, Spock. I think what he is saying is that regardless of whether or not the company survives, he has a fun, quality motorcycle and is glad he bought it.
Myself, I don't see Polaris failing any time soon, I'm just very frustrated at the rate at which Victory delears seem to be closing up shop.  |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | Rebel - 2008-12-01 9:13 AM I don't think CJ's impying that Polaris or Victory is going to fail, Spock. I think what he is saying is that regardless of whether or not the company survives, he has a fun, quality motorcycle and is glad he bought it. Myself, I don't see Polaris failing any time soon, I'm just very frustrated at the rate at which Victory delears seem to be closing up shop. Thanks for your view on his comments. The Vision is an awesome bike that is a lot of fun. It is sad to see some Victory dealers close but it is more to do with poor management than anything to do with the brand. Good dealers are doing very well with the Victory line and especially the Vision. One of Victory's top priorities is to build a better network of dealership and in this process they are also weeding out some poor ones. Having a great dealer as I have makes Vision ownership much more enjoyable. There are a lot of Harley dealers in trouble as well and several Harley dealers for sale right now. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 74
MN. | One thing that the magazines can not disput, is the amount of power the Vision has over the HD's. NO comparison. I've heard the HD's are a bit easier to manuver at slow speeds, is that true? (never ridden a big HD) |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | well I've never ridden a big HD at slow speeds but if they say it is easier to manuever then it would be king. I find that the Vision is phenomially easy to manuever at slow speeds and can't imagine anything being easier. |
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Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | It's not the 'glide, but I DID have a Road Kill (er..."King". Joking aside, I liked the bike. I didn't love it, but I liked it.
I can say this about the handling: I often practice my handling skills on the MSF BRC course at the local community college. I especially practice the figure-eight-in-a-box part. On the Suzuki 250 I took the course on, the box is easy. The Road King, I could hit about 80% success. On the Vision, I've managed about 3 successes (less than 1%).
The Vision is phenomenal at low speeds, yes; but the wheelbase is so big, those tight 180's are going to take something special. I'm sure that if I had the cojones to risk dropping the bike, I'd make more of those turns; but I find myself chickening out... jamming my leg instead of hitting the gas like I should.
On the other hand, crawling along at sub-3mph speeds in traffic is much easier on the Vision.
---the TrailBarge |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | trailbarge,
"Get the Ride like a Pro V" DVD from http://www.ridelikeapro.com/
Learn their way of turning the big bikes. As long as you trust the Vision to make the turn, apply the proper amount of power, feather the clutch and drag the back brake, it will make the twenty-four foot u-turn and figure eight every time. Most times I make the twenty foot U-turn.
I love Motorman's simple rules like, "Keep your head and eyes up!", "Stay off of the front brake at low speeds", "Do not look at the ground or curb because that is where the bike will go", "When making a U-Turn, turn your head and eyes as far as you can in the direction of the turn and the bike will follow."
Do not let the size of the Vision get to your head. It can do the job. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 226
on the edge of Los Angeles | When I got my Vision I was fresh off a 08 road glide test ride and I still wanted the Vision. When I purchase vehicles I have always looked at what I am getting for my money and the Vision fell into that arena. Fit, finish, flow, comfort. power and all those things most Vision riders have been happy with. I have always purchased vehicles that did not fit the pack but they still run and have given me proper service life. I do race cars and my approach has always been different with the end results being positive. I dont have the issues of many others telling me how I should do things with my stuff. I make my own decisions and that is in part why I purchased a Vision.
I did not expect this but I do feel we are a new breed of riders that want to take their own path and make it what it becomes.
If times were better I would have more bikes HD included but I think for now the one and only bike is my Vision...
Much like the classic cars that they have been refernced to I will probably try to keep mine to the end...
All who read these posts are either current Vison Riders or someone who has discovered this brand as I did and is researching their next great purchase!
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Tourer
Posts: 377
O'Neill, Nebraska | Rebel - 2008-12-01 9:13 AM
Myself, I don't see Polaris failing any time soon, I'm just very frustrated at the rate at which Victory delears seem to be closing up shop.
This must be a regional thing. We lost 1 Vic dealer here in South Texas; however they were more focused on selling Yamaha and Honda's.
The true Vic dealers are alive an kicking around here and I keep hearing the same old thing about HD. Walk in the store and be ignored......I don't see how they stay in business. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | It is funny how Victory does that. I see all kinds of Polaris places with not even a hint of a Victory except maybe consignment. I've seen a combo of Victory/Polaris but they are mostly Polaris and some other bike. Fortunetly we have a pure Victory "dealer" here in Central Va. What I saw south of Houston at the Polaris dealer when I stopped to asked where the Vic dealer was, he tried to get me off of my Victory and get me on a GoldWing. Of course I just laughed. When I find the Victory dealer it was more of an afterthought though they had Victory as the banner, but they sold a sundry of other bikes, ATV's, buggies, Spyders, etc. It almost seemed that it bothered them I was asking for a Vision part, (flag for luggage rack) but when I asked how to get to the Victory dealer in Corpus Christi they just laughed and said that he sent business to them because he couldn't give people a good deal because he's overpriced. If I didn't have a Vision to ride I might have left there a little frustrated, but when I cranked back on the throttle I forgot what I even stopped for. But the bottomline is, most if not all business will not let you know how they are really doing, most will say they are doing great right up until they lock the door for the last time. I've seen it more than once, twice or even three times, leaving folk high and dry and wondering what to do next. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | To throw my 2 cents in I have had 2 Harley's one of them a Tour Glide and a total of 10 Goldwing's over the last 25 years. I was the guy who started the Gold wing Chapter in Grand Rapids MI. I have been a memeber of GWRRA since 1982. All that said I have been looking for a bike like the Vision since 1971 when I bought my first bike. this bike fits me handles great and make me feel like riding. I had lost the thrill that come from firing up the bike and heading down the road. Was I a fan of GW yes did I like the Harley yes was I ever in love with a bike yes the 1970 350 Honda that I first bought I felt like I could ride forever I have that feeling again today for the first time in a long long time. Does the Vision have faults maybe but love is blind and I can't find them right now. Excuse me I am gong to the gararge to get a fix. Thanks Archie |
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Vision vs. Harley
