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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | I bought my Vision new and have 26,646 miles on it...I just spoke to the dealer and they are saying it's time for new clutches....IS that about right for mileage on a clutch??? Should I replace it with factory clutch or is there a better one out there for a Vision with cams????
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | That is an excelent question.
I own a 2002 Jeep Wrangler it is my 4th or 5th I used to have to change clutchs around 55 to 60 K miles they would get soft and slip.
My 2002 Wrangler has the original clutch and it feels the same as the day I bought it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | they're taking you for just another joe schmoe. Not to go into a long drawn out speech on clutches, and I'm curious as to how they are making the determination.
Here's a little Nemo 101 on clutches.
There is virtually no wear on a clutch when it is fully engaged, or when it is fully disengaged. Wear occurs during the engagement/disengagement process, or the friction zone. That slippage that occurs is a good thing as you engage the clutch otherwise it would slam into forward motion. It is good to learn how to feather it properly, especially doing the exciting slow manuevers that impresses friends.
So, to the point, the wear is based more on how much you engage and disengage, and how you engage and disengage the clutch. A long distance rider could rack up, say, well over a 100,000 miles on a clutch. A city commuter on the other hand, may only get 30,000 to 60,000 miles out of the clutch before needing replacement. If you "ride" the clutch or use additives to your wetclutch application that you unknowingly cause rapid deteriation, it could have an extremely short life.
Well, that's all I got to say about that.
Edited by Cap'n Nemo 2011-06-16 5:17 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Cap'n Nemo - 2011-06-16 6:13 PM they're taking for just another joe schmoe. Not to go into a long drawn out speech on clutches, and I'm curious as to how they are making the determination. Here's a little Nemo 101 on clutches. There is virtually no wear on a clutch when it is fully engaged, or when it is fully disengaged. Wear occurs during the engagement/disengagement process, or the friction zone. That slippage that occurs is as good thing as you engage the clutch, and it is good to learn how to feather it properly, especially doing the exciting slow manuevers that impresses friends. So, to the point, the wear is based more on how much you engage and disengage, and how you engage and disengage the clutch. A long distance rider could rack up, say, well over a 100,000 miles on a clutch. A city commuter on the other hand, may only get 30,000 to 60,000 miles out of the clutch before needing replacement. If you "ride" the clutch or use additives to your wetclutch application that you unknowingly cause rapid deteriation, it could have an extremely short life. Well, that's all I got to say about that. Thanks Cap'n Nemo, for the 101 class...I am basically both, I ride my Vision to and from work and on weekends I ride long distance 200 to 500 miles a weekend....I have only used Vic oil and Mobil 1 20W50 V-twin oil...Each are wet clutch applicable...And the Mobil has better specs than the Vic oil...As for riding the clutch NEVER....As for dumping the clutch, YES...With the cams and having fun I dump the clutch all the time, just to have some fun...>Never burn out on the rear wheel, just a quick aggressive take off or acceleration... Never had to replace a clutch this soon on a motorcycle before, just thought I would ask, if this is a normal wear period or if something isn't right....
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | Now you've got me curious because I don't see 26,000 as a time to change the clutch. But if he has technical proof, then by all means have it done. Try to spin this around KevinX or Lloyd on this one if you question the dealers diagnostic. Do you feel it slip? What makes you believe it is time? There has been a few other reports of early burn-out on clutches, but I would want an answer. See if you can keep the old clutch and have a look at it yourself. Also, could it be the clutch fluid that's giving the illusion it is a bad clutch?
Just tossing a bunch of stuff in the air to see where they land... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | This is a good question. I don't think I can recall anyone ever changing a Vision clutch. In any case, I certainly would never change a clutch on a mileage basis. I am sure it will let you know when it wants to be changed, little slip and/or signs in the oil. I really don't see any advantage, cost or otherwise, to changing it before it's time.
Maybe someone has experienced something different? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | Thanks Nemo but as I am saying I am the same opperator and my 2002 clutch engages differently than my prior jeeps and it seems to be an improvement my older jeeps the clutch engaged at the floorboard.
My current seems almost at the first nudge of the pedel.
I have replaced clutch's in HD's for friends.
My 1979 Triumph has its original.
I have never worn out the clutch in any motorcycle I have owned to date.
But in cars and trucks I have ruined them.
I was just wondering if some one in the car world found out a wayto bullet proof one because my Jeep has over a hundred thousand miles and it works like new and I do not wear out brakes . I wear out Transmissions and tires it is the way I was taught to drive
Edited by Trekwolf164 2011-06-16 5:40 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | The reason I took it to the dealer to have it looked at to begin with is: When the motor gets to operating temperature, it became hard to shift gears, especially 1st, 2nd, and 3rd....Getting the engine into neutral was almost impossible...Several times I had to shut off the motor so I could get it into gear....Another anomaly was "occasionally" I would feel GRINDING or VIBRATION while down shifting to slow down...This occurred after the dealer had done the repair for the Gear shift indicator jumping display. I finally got some free time and dropped it off to him to diagnose....The dealer called just a little while ago and told me it was the clutch causing both ailments. Never felt the clutch slip or cause any unusual effects of a worn clutch....Always grabbed and handled the load of the motor under hard acceleration...
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | Sounds like transmission to me Clutch is wearing un evenly |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Just out of curiosity, how old is the oil? What you are describing sounds oil related to me. Slightly low oil will do it. Vic oil will do it around 3k. Mobile V-Twin did it in my 08 Vision after the first hundred miles. Took it out after 4 or 5 hundred and went to T-6. I got about 35 hundred on this batch of T-6 and it is just starting what you are describing. New T-6 over the weekend. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Ride it do your fun good riders can get 100 thousand even with the getting on it. Holding the clutch lever in the middle of the travel and hitting hard is causing slippage.
All the way in on the lever or all the way doesn't cause problems. Hydraulic clutch's are self adjusting so they last longer. Cable clutch's need to adjust maybe once a year. Never adjust your clutch when hot. It takes 24 hours for a clutch to cool off.
I had a harley stocker bagger and did burn outs and race on the street and the strip. 80 thousand I replace and maybe didn't need to.
If the dealer tells you that you need a belt just say thanks and leave he just wants your money. Its like a clutch down the road someday you might |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Oil is only 2K miles old....Had it changed back at 24.5K...The Mobil-1 made my Vision smoother than the Vic oil ever did...shifting was flawless...Have run probably 20% Mobil-1 and 80% Vic oil.... |
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Tourer
Posts: 374
Tucson, AZ | 67.6K on my clutch, zero problems. Ride to work daily, about 20 miles each way, and weekends I usually put on 500 miles, mostly back roads. Change oil at about 2.5k religiously. Hoping for another 67k and then another, and another.......
mike |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | One other thing to note on this problem...My clutch lever engagement has been steadily getting further out over the past coulpe of months also...WHen I took it in to the dealer, when the motor is HOT the engagment point is ALMOST at the end of the possible travel...When the motor is COLD it engages about 1/2 way!! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 74
Lehigh Valley, Pa | I do not want to turn this into a oil discussion or imply anything other than my personal experience buy I tried the M1. My VV has always shifted smooth as butter so there was no noticeable improvement there but I was very pleased with the noise improvement. However that was short lived due to clutch slipping which I had a hard time actually noticing it at first but when I got close to the 2500 mile mark the shifting effort started to get much harder. This was never the case with Vic oil. Back to Vic oil and after the second oil change things are back to normal. And it wasn't until late into the second oil change that things returned to normal. The first oil change the oil was black as tar, the second appeared to be normal. I am just sayin.... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | This is an interesting thread... I have two Visions one with 21K and the other with 28k and no clutch problems... Both have cams... The 08 with 28K I have ran Mobil 1, T-6 Rottela and few other brands in I have seen a little clutch slippage but going back to the Vic oil always solved it... I do notice a difference in shifting as the oil get to the end of it's life. The 09 with 21K has only had Vic oil in it... Same results from both... End of life and shifting become a little more difficult.
I believe it should last a lot longer... Hell, I put 274k on my dodge truck without ever having to touch the clutch. Hopefully you have an extended warranty on the bike and I would be filing a claim - No way should it be "worn out".
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| Did they check the adjustment on the shift lever? My '09 acted up in first 500. Thought it was new. Higgins found that the mech that installed the heal shifter never adjusted it correctly. Jay fine tuned and it has been fine since. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | When you mentioned the changing clutch lever it brought to mind the hydraulic clutch fluid. Has it been changed? Brake fluids do absorb moisture over time and then breaks down. There have been many posts of clutch and brake problems caused by old fluid.
Of course there is always the possibility that the clutch really is shot. Shouldn't be, but then front fenders aren't supposed to fall off either. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | joe schmoe - 2011-06-17 7:19 AM
One other thing to note on this problem...My clutch lever engagement has been steadily getting further out over the past coulpe of months also...WHen I took it in to the dealer, when the motor is HOT the engagment point is ALMOST at the end of the possible travel...When the motor is COLD it engages about 1/2 way!!
Change the fluid and sees what happens. I wouldn't touch the clutch until this happens. I think the change calls for 30,000, not sure, check the book. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| joe schmoe
You don't say if you have a hydraulic clutch or a cable clutch. You know hydraulic is self adjusting and the cable you have to put a wrench to.
Your manual might tell you how to adjust your cable if not ask your dealer or do a search. You can only adjust clutch when cold NEVER when hot or warm.
At the clutch lever pull hard the cable straight out of the housing and you want a 1/16th to a 1/8th inch of play. More then that you need to adjust it. |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | john frey - 2011-06-17 12:32 PM joe schmoe You don't say if you have a hydraulic clutch or a cable clutch. You know hydraulic is self adjusting and the cable you have to put a wrench to. Your manual might tell you how to adjust your cable if not ask your dealer or do a search. You can only adjust clutch when cold NEVER when hot or warm. At the clutch lever pull hard the cable straight out of the housing and you want a 1/16th to a 1/8th inch of play. More then that you need to adjust it. It's my understanding (limited though it's my understanding) that ALL Visions have hydraulic clutches...At least according to my dealer...After starting this thread, I spoke to my dealer this morning to verify they actually LOOKED at the clutch assembly...They say they did and the clutch plates are worn out... |
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New user
Posts: 3
| Check out Lloydz website for the clutch options. Two Options Barnett or S&S. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I can't believe your dealer I think hes bending you over big time.
The only way I know to determine if your plates are bad is pull them out. The outer plate doesn't tell you what the inner plates look like.
Find a new dealer or ride it till it doesn't shif.
DID YOU SAY IT SHIFT JUST FINE OR NOT ? |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | <p>John thanks for the input...I am going to demand to get the old clutch plates back and post pictures here for everyon eto see...I don't know enough about how they should look so I will let the experts (you all) enlighten me....My dealer has been stand up for the past 1 1 /2 so I trust them for now anyway....</p><p><br />And yes it is hard to shift once the engine gets to operating temperatures, but mostly in 1st, 2nd and 3rd...Getting it to drop into Neutral is a BEAST! </p>
Edited by joe schmoe 2011-06-22 6:52 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | sounds like a worn shaft/bearing, but hope it's just the clutch/plate. |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Going to the dealership in the morning to let them replace my clutch...I am going to ask for the old parts back and then I will post pictures for all to see....What should I look for in the way of wear??? Is it just thinning of the metal? Or is it scrapes and gouges? I really don't know what I'm looking for.... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | just like your brake pads it is the thickness of the material on the discs. I need to look at the manual to see what we are dealing with in the way of set and the actuation of the pressure plate. Gouges will occur if there is forgeign material in there basket as well.
Hmmm - the inspection procedures are in Chapter 9 of the manual, interesting read, I might be doing mine sometime soon, well, maybe in the next 40 or 50,000 miles.
Edited by Cap'n Nemo 2011-06-30 9:30 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | I had to go look a the manual and it makes a point on early clutch failure where it says that it will slip if additives were previously used. This makes sense because the additive will soak into the clutch material and you are immediately at the point of no return, you will have to replace the clutch to correct the situation. This may be the overall cause, knowingly, or unknowingly, of early clutch failures that we have read about. The bottom-line for me is, don't experiment.
(clutch_slip.jpg)
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| joe schmoe
Why are you replacing the clutch? Is it slipping on you? Or what.
Cap'n Nemo
If you pull your clutch apart make sure you don't mix the plates up. Keep them in the same order as they came up. Thats if you don't know. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1359
New Bohemia, Va | Thanks John, the book is really good in pointing out the difference, the book will be close at hand. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 101
Springfield, TN | john frey - 2011-06-30 12:09 PM
joe schmoe
Why are you replacing the clutch? Is it slipping on you? Or what.
Cap'n Nemo
If you pull your clutch apart make sure you don't mix the plates up. Keep them in the same order as they came up. Thats if you don't know.
Yeah Joe Scmoe... why the clutch replacement? |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | The full details are on the first page of this thread, but "BASICALLY" due to; feeling a vibration randomly while downshifting, the clutch pull is at maximum travel, and it is D@MN near impossible to get Neutral when the motor is hot...It is actually easier to shut the motor off and find Neutral than it is with the motor running....But all these are when the motor is HOT....When the motor is COLD it shifts and find Neutral with no problems... What si the part number for the Barnett Clutch for a 2009 Vision??? I was told it would be cheaper than the factory one!!
Edited by joe schmoe 2011-07-01 10:28 AM
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New user
Posts: 3
| Schmoe, check out LLoydz website. He has the Barnett Clutch Plates and Friction disks as well as the upgraded barnett clutch diaphram spring and billet plate. You could also upgrade to the S&S/Lloydz Lockup clutch kit. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I wonder how much pulling pounds or pressure it take to pull the clutch in. The only reason I ask is cause h-d use the same style and there's is 5 times easier. Yes I know we have more torque then them. But there big inch motors should be close to our torque or more. It would be fun if had a dozen springs in front of you so you could do a teats and find out what could be easier and better. |
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