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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I have a friend who has gone to power commander school for training and goes each year for up dates. Here is what he had to say about 02 sensors. Sorry I posted this twice.
1. Any Power Commander overrides the factory O2 sensors. They can be left plugged in or unplugged but if you do not plug the ?eliminator wire? back in to the factory harness a trouble code will pop up on the dash. If you leave them plugged in, they are not functioning once you have installed the Power Commander.
2. The Power Commander V only works with the O2 sensors provided with their Auto Tune Kit
which is an additional $369.95. The P.C. V will not work with factory O2 sensors.
3. In terms of getting ?more power?, most tuners (mechanics) will create a map for a bike based on all it?s specific features. The O2 sensors provide a ?point of reference? for the ECM to calibrate for the ?perfect air fuel ratio?. With this in mind, ?O2 sensors would definitely be the way to go? for achieving maximum performance (most power and run ability) on the street due to constant condition changes.
4. Most tuners can build a map, on the dyno for a customer by manipulating different fuel cells.
Since they are doing this ?manually?, there is no need for O2 sensors which is why you will find some tuners not using them and achieving ?big numbers?. By doing this they can achieve a ?maximum horsepower number? which is usually what customers are after.
Ultimately any good tuner will use an O2 sensor (at least 1) to get a reading on what the bike
is putting out for an A.F.R. Once they get the reading, they will remove it and lock in the
desired fuel cell readings to create a map and send the customer on their way. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | yeah the sensors on our bike are NOT wideband so they can only adjust a small amount. i have a pcv and i have my stock sensors plugged in still with NO problems at all. for anyone wanting a auto tune for the pcv you can get it online for about $295 with NO shipping No tax.. cruiser customizing has it for that price right now. i got my Power commander 5 online for $249 no shipping no tax off of ebay! if i was to get a custom map i would just buy the auto tuner then if i ever add or remove anything i dont have to pay for ANOTHER map... and to pay for a map is not cheap... i like how the auto tune adjusts your bike in Real time no matter what the weather and if you add or remove a device.. example would be.. you take off your high flow air filter and wash it.. then you can put your stock one back on and the auto tune will adjust for it. and once your high flow one is dry just switch it back. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | I'm guessing there is a little misinturpitation here
john frey - 2010-11-16 1:50 PM
I have a friend who has gone to power commander school for training and goes each year for up dates. Here is what he had to say about 02 sensors. Sorry I posted this twice.
1. Any Power Commander overrides the factory O2 sensors. They can be left plugged in or unplugged but if you do not plug the ?eliminator wire? back in to the factory harness a trouble code will pop up on the dash. If you leave them plugged in, they are not functioning once you have installed the Power Commander.
Leaving the o2 plugged in will cause a conflict between what the tuner wants, and what the ECM wants. While it can be somewhat overcome in the perfect world of a dyno. It does not work well on the street. Even if you get it working with the factory o2's in place. The extra milliseconds it takes for everything to get worked out. Sapps preformance, and drivability. If you leave them plugged in. They are still trying to do their job.
Unplugging them forces the bike into open loop, and the ECM employs fixed mapping that is MUCH easier to tune with. Many bikes such as Vic will NOT give a "Check Engine" light. The manufacturers know what we are up to
2. The Power Commander V only works with the O2 sensors provided with their Auto Tune Kit
which is an additional $369.95. The P.C. V will not work with factory O2 sensors..
This is correct. The factory uses narrow band o2 sensors from the 1980s, and the are niether acurate, or fast enough for a real modern computer
. 3. In terms of getting ?more power?, most tuners (mechanics) will create a map for a bike based on all it?s specific features. The O2 sensors provide a ?point of reference? for the ECM to calibrate for the ?perfect air fuel ratio?. With this in mind, ?O2 sensors would definitely be the way to go? for achieving maximum performance (most power and run ability) on the street due to constant condition changes..
Kinda, but this answer could take hours of typing with my feeble typing skills, but you are not wrong
4. Most tuners can build a map, on the dyno for a customer by manipulating different fuel cells.
.Since they are doing this ?manually?, there is no need for O2 sensors which is why you will find some tuners not using them and achieving ?big numbers?. By doing this they can achieve a ?maximum horsepower number? which is usually what customers are after..
The tuner uses one, but it is not plugged into the ECM. It is either a part of the dyno, or a temporary unit mounted to the bike. Otherwise you are just guessing
.Ultimately any good tuner will use an O2 sensor (at least 1) to get a reading on what the bike
is putting out for an A.F.R. Once they get the reading, they will remove it and lock in the
desired fuel cell readings to create a map and send the customer on their way.
Yup |
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Cruiser
Posts: 256
| As far as the autotune adjusting for mods, yes for a/f ratio but it can't be adjusting the timing so yes you'll be safe but there will be some power left on the table unless you also adjust timing. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Which you can do with the PC-V. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 16
Regina Sask. Canada | Hi all just installed the power commander V and the auto tune and the air fuel numbers would not come up on the laptop ????
So I checked all the wiring and the setting and then MADE the call to Power commander they did a remote take over of MY laptop
and in no time it was up and running and then he made some adjustments. It was like he was inn the caragage helped me .
Now I have to what for the snow to melt to go for a ride????
SO if you have a proplem make the CALL |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i have a PCV,. i havent purchased a auto tune yet. i still may not. ive had my pcv for over a year now and im just so pleased with how much better my Vision runs with the pcv over the s1l1 fuel map that i guess i didnt feel the need for a auto tuner (yet) i just have a hard time dropping another 3 bills on a fuel controller accessory.. i know its probably worth it? but my bike run so good now! LOL |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | I have a PC V w/ AT. After a dyno tuning session with Lloyd in Daytona I had the auto tune feature turned off. It's set perfect from the dyno session and runs like a scalded dog with no popping. What I've been told about the auto tune feature of both the PC and the ThunderMax I have on my 107" RoadGlide is this: The auto tune feature does constantly build a refining map, however it must be manually insereted to the base set up ( what they call offsets ) then you can turn it back on for further fine tuning or turn it off and leave it alone. Any one else understand this differently ?? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | From what I heard is it does this, it runs off pda base map and then builds from that.. then at the end of a good ride u connect your laptop and save that "improved" map so that when it runs again it can make even a finer tuning even quicker? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| Here is a good question, would installing a PCV with AutoTune on a bike that is completely stock have any benefit? We all know how rich our bikes run when cold or at idle, would this install perhaps clean up and get rid of some of the exhaust soot a little and would it be possible with it to get better gas mileage?
You would think that with the fuel injection, ignition and computer technology in today's motorcycles we should be getting better gas mileage then those bikes built in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, not worse like we are getting now. We are riding 900 pound vehicles with engines that are putting out over 90 horsepower, over 100 pounds feet of torque and we are only getting 37 to 42 miles to the gallon? There are many cars on the road that weigh over 2500 pounds with engines generating over 200 horsepower that are getting the same mileage, something is just wrong with that. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Travelin Man: it would make the bike run as effeciently as possible. After install you can set the parameters, then ride it 100 miles, reinsert the trim and turn the AT off, or leave it running and building a even finer tuned map. Converesley you could in stall it, have it dyno tuned and let it trim one time insert and turn the AT off. |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | Would there be any benefit from using wide band O2 sensors on a stock Vision and stock ecu? Just curious. |
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New user
Posts: 1
| I have an 09 roadglide with pcV installed.. i havent bought the autotune yet i have set a base map from their download for pipes air cleaner etc.. the bike runs a lot better with stock 02 sensors plugged in instead of the 02 eliminator plugs.. any reason why? etc.. from what I read its not supposed to and only works in a very small envirorment but for me seems to be running a lot snappier as is...??? And do people feel like they are getting their bang for their buck for another 300 for autotune?
thanks JB |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | CBR900RR316 - 2011-05-23 4:13 PM
I have an 09 roadglide with pcV installed.. i havent bought the autotune yet i have set a base map from their download for pipes air cleaner etc.. the bike runs a lot better with stock 02 sensors plugged in instead of the 02 eliminator plugs.. any reason why? etc.. from what I read its not supposed to and only works in a very small envirorment but for me seems to be running a lot snappier as is...??? And do people feel like they are getting their bang for their buck for another 300 for autotune?
thanks JB |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | CBR900RR316 - 2011-05-23 4:13 PM
I have an 09 roadglide with pcV installed.. i havent bought the autotune yet i have set a base map from their download for pipes air cleaner etc.. the bike runs a lot better with stock 02 sensors plugged in instead of the 02 eliminator plugs.. any reason why? etc.. from what I read its not supposed to and only works in a very small envirorment but for me seems to be running a lot snappier as is...??? And do people feel like they are getting their bang for their buck for another 300 for autotune?
thanks JB
probably becuase the base map is too rich and since the stock o2 sensors are still plugged in the bikes ecu is trying to lean it out some? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | But they are narrow band sensors so it can not be adjusting it too much. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 46
| I installed the PCV with AutoTune on my 09 Vision tour premium that is configured with a K&N air filter, top air filter, stock ECU, and stock exhaust (other changes may come later). I'm sure I could convince myself there is an increase in horsepower and torque but would need a dynamometer run. However, I did notice quicker and smoother throttle response. |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Rainmans 09 - 2011-05-28 11:34 PM I installed the PCV with AutoTune on my 09 Vision tour premium that is configured with a K&N air filter, top air filter, stock ECU, and stock exhaust (other changes may come later). I'm sure I could convince myself there is an increase in horsepower and torque but would need a dynamometer run. However, I did notice quicker and smoother throttle response. Did you replace the stock o2 sensors? If so how? I read somewhere that the threads are different than the stock ones and new bungs would have to be installed...
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| The thread size is the same between the OE sensors and the set that comes with AutoTune.
Marc |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | marcparnes - 2011-05-29 12:47 PM The thread size is the same between the OE sensors and the set that comes with AutoTune. Marc Thank you Marc....Another question, the Autotune o2 sensors they are wide band correct?
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Yes they are and high quality Bosch ones at that.
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 46
| I agree with Marc's responses...did you install the VM1 cams? If so, how difficult was the process? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| I've done a few of them now. Its not too hard just time consuming. The 2010 and 2011 were more difficult since I had to replace the cam carriers as well. Lloydz new cams will eliminate that step and expense.
Marc |
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02 Sensors power comander