|
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Well I have read most of the posts here and also on the Darkside Forum and today I pulled the trigger and mounted up a Bridgestone Potenza G019 195 55 16 Tire. I didn't get to take a ride on it yet, but am planning to go this Saturday. I am starting out with the pressure at 38 and go from there. I was planning to get new tires this winter any way and found the tire on E-Bay for under $70 shipped. The tire shop down the street from me said they had never mounted a car tire on a motorcycle rim before but they would give it a try. Mounted like a champ and they also ballanced it for a total of $20 including disposal of the old tire!! Which I found out had a nail in it!!
After I give it a good ride Saturday, I'll post my opinion good or bad, I really will try to be as honest as I can in the review. Next summer my brother and I are planning a trip the length of the Blue Ridge Parkway and taking in the Tail of the Dragon. To me this will be the true test if I like the tire or not. I have been to the Dragon twice before but not on the VV.
Just as a side note, it is amazing how flat the center of the old tire was, I could stand it up and it did not try to fall over. You got to love Northern Ohio roads, flat and straight. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i went dark recently and most of the time i forget i went dark! i say most because alot of the time i get people that say , Is that a car tire on your motorcycle? Then i remember Oh yeah thats right ! LOL |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 101
Cold Lake Alberta Canada | I went Dark Side back in July and I too forget that there is a different tire on the back. I used the same tire as handyhiker. Ive been to the Rockies and the Praries, never had a problem. Wait till you try it in the rain, major improvement over a stock tire, I noticed that braking is improved as well. I'm 6 foot 280lbs and run the tire at 32psi. Wait for the highway cruising ride it's awsome.
Welcome to the Dark Side
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Jim Millington - 2010-10-12 7:32 PM
I'm 6 foot 280lbs and run the tire at 32psi. Wait for the highway cruising ride it's awsome.
Welcome to the Dark Side
I had read where under 34 psi makes the bike feel soft in the back, do you think that 38 is too much pressure? Just trying to get some feed back on pressure settings. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 215
orrick, mo | I'm 240 and i'm running 34psi. with the same tire your using. Have just over 17000 miles on it.
I like the highway feel on it but Love the twisties with it also. Enjoy the Darkside!
The tire got some great hook to it. I've pulled several wheelies with it. Something I never did with the mt.  |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| you darksiders...stay off the twisties, your gonna make the vision look bad!!
ride safe! |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | jeffmack - 2010-10-13 1:56 PM
... your gonna make the vision look bad!!
ride safe!
I don't think this can be done!!! :-) |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 576
, IA | Any darksiders out there pull a trailer |
|
| |
|
Central Wisconsin | sonicbluerider - 2010-10-13 5:11 PM Any darksiders out there pull a trailer 
Yes, last month went from Wisconsin-Tennessee/North Carolina-Wisconsin without any issues. 
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 215
orrick, mo | Trust me the ct does just as good as mt in the twisties. I've rubbed floorboards at 70 around corners on Push mountain road and have the pics to prove it check out my gallery pics. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Here are my first impressions with the CT on.
First I tried with 32 PSI, the bike really likes straight riding. It centers itself quickly. Turns are not a problem, but do require more work.
Then I tried 35 PSI. The bike now feels much better to me. Still SLIGHTLY more effort on turns, but could easly forget I have a CT on the back.
I will say that the back end is smoother over bumps. This is very noticable!
I will take a longer ride tomarrow, but todays ride was 20 or so miles and from what I felt, I am happy with the CT. I plan on playing with the pressure more tomarrow, but I think I am going to like this DARK SIDE thing!! |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 102
Parkersburg WV | Hi Guys, Ive only had my 09 vision for 2 months but I have a question that may not have come up yet. I see the pic of Thomas's bike and notice that he has different rims than I do. I have the polished wheels with the rounded edges. Do you think it matters whitch rims you have ?
Thanks, Bob |
|
| |
|
Central Wisconsin |
azllerbob - 2010-10-15 7:18 PM Hi Guys, Ive only had my 09 vision for 2 months but I have a question that may not have come up yet. I see the pic of Thomas's bike and notice that he has different rims than I do. I have the polished wheels with the rounded edges. Do you think it matters whitch rims you have ? Thanks, Bob Hi Bob, I'm thinking you'll be okay because the factory mounted the E3's on both our bikes with that said the seating surface on our rims should be similar or the same. Thomas 
|
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Thank-you for the "proof" pic. After reading some of the post on "darkside" I was giving it some consideration. After download your "proof" pic and blowing it up 800% I was able to see the tire/road contact of your darkside. Now I am again convinced that car tires belong on cars where they are not forced to bear all the weight on the outside 5% of the tire belt. Maybe they "feel" just fine but your are literally riding on the edge of darkside. And I would also venture to say after seeing that pic that darkside puts you on the downside of liability. I really hope that anyone considering darkside will first take a moment to download and blow up that pic and see for themselves the edge they are staking they're lives on. To each, they're own. Just do your own research.
|
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Cropped
(2010Dcrop.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 2010Dcrop.jpg (16KB - 2 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm with you g, but I don't think you'll win over an arguement with the darksiders. I've given serious consideration to going darkside and I'm a perfect candidate putting on at least two rear tires a year. Without ever trying the darkside I have gathered the evidence I need to rule in my decision; it gives a different ride, which to me would be anti-Vision.
This pic may prove something to darksiders, but it proves something else to me, though it is not based off your weigh bearing comment. To my knowledge, there is little or no weight on the liability argument either, but again, I don't need any of those to convince me. |
|
| |
|
Central Wisconsin | glighto11 - 2010-10-15 9:05 PM Thank-you for the "proof" pic. After reading some of the post on "darkside" I was giving it some consideration. After download your "proof" pic and blowing it up 800% I was able to see the tire/road contact of your darkside. Now I am again convinced that car tires belong on cars where they are not forced to bear all the weight on the outside 5% of the tire belt. Maybe they "feel" just fine but your are literally riding on the edge of darkside. And I would also venture to say after seeing that pic that darkside puts you on the downside of liability. ...
I would suggest that you stay with a motorcycle tire so you can have 6% tire contact in the turns and stay on the upside of liability.
Edited by Thomas 2010-10-15 9:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 412
Fargo, ND |
I've been darkside for quite some time...It's a 'great life'
Here's a photo of my car tired Vision. I couldn't find car tires to fit my trailer or I'd put them on that also.
|
|
| |
|
Central Wisconsin | John you have a nice looking set up. Did you black out the brushed aluminum yourself? Looks like the two front grill trim pieces is flat black and your windshield access panel is black power coated? |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 412
Fargo, ND |
Thank you...Everything you can see was powder coated. The panel on the rear between the exhaust (which you can't see) was 'rattle canned' by me. That even looks OK from 30 or 40 yards away!
:-)
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | definitely a nice rig. I'm curious on the trailer tires, though it is a wider stance creating a little more drag, it seems it would offer more stability on the road, who makes the trailer? |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 412
Fargo, ND |
Here's 'my take' on pulling a trailer with your motorcycle for those that have never done it.
To me the bottom line is this...
If I am one-up, I normally remove my trunk and hook my trailer on. You get rid of sooo much 'high weight' without your trunk, back seat and saddle bags packed full of stuff. When I travel my saddle bags are pretty much empty, except for the easy access stuff, which includes my hat, camera, rain suit, etc. The 150 - 200 lbs. of 'high weight' (up by your waist or shoulders) goes in the tailer and becomes 25 - 30 lbs. of 'low weight' (same height as the axle of your bike) when you hook the trailer to your bike. You will not believe the difference in the way your bike handles without all that weight on the bike and especially up high. The difference is more pronounced with a rider. If my wife goes along, the trunk goes back on, however, I still pack the same way getting the weight in the trailer. (she doesn't like it much in there so I'm thinking about cutting in a window for her) :-) I've had many trailers and will say this 'Road Dog' is a fantastic trailer. It tucks in behind the bike and you do not even know it is there. BTW, I am in no way associated with Road Dog Trailers...just a happy user.
http://www.roaddogtrailers.com/default.asp
That's my story and I'm stickin to it!
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Thanks FS- that is a great looking trailer and I like the prices over any other comparable trailer. To keep the thread on topic, maybe if I ever get the wife out on the long highway I may go to the Darkside. Maybe by then they'll come up with a car tire specifically made for a motorcycle...  |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 4278
| WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 127
OHIO | glighto11 - 2010-10-15 9:05 PM Thank-you for the "proof" pic. After reading some of the post on "darkside" I was giving it some consideration. After download your "proof" pic and blowing it up 800% I was able to see the tire/road contact of your darkside. Now I am again convinced that car tires belong on cars where they are not forced to bear all the weight on the outside 5% of the tire belt. Maybe they "feel" just fine but your are literally riding on the edge of darkside. And I would also venture to say after seeing that pic that darkside puts you on the downside of liability. I really hope that anyone considering darkside will first take a moment to download and blow up that pic and see for themselves the edge they are staking they're lives on. To each, they're own. Just do your own research.
Before I did my car tire, I leaned my mt over at the same angle as the car tire and did not notice the mt having any more contact with the pavement. Now compare both tires straight on and see which has more pavement contact!! You are right though,,,, to each their own. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | glighto11 - 2010-10-15 10:05 PM
Thank-you for the "proof" pic. After reading some of the post on "darkside" I was giving it some consideration. After download your "proof" pic and blowing it up 800% I was able to see the tire/road contact of your darkside. Now I am again convinced that car tires belong on cars where they are not forced to bear all the weight on the outside 5% of the tire belt. Maybe they "feel" just fine but your are literally riding on the edge of darkside. And I would also venture to say after seeing that pic that darkside puts you on the downside of liability. I really hope that anyone considering darkside will first take a moment to download and blow up that pic and see for themselves the edge they are staking they're lives on. To each, they're own. Just do your own research.
You should work for the FBI. There is no way I can tell what the contact patch in that picture is. Between the grainy blow up and the shadows. You must have awsome eyes! |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Well I did a route today I have done several times before. Total trip is around 185 miles and about 4 hours. It takes me down freeway then two lane and through some nice twisties then farm country then back to freeway.
I left the house with every intension of stopping and changing air pressure several times , it never happened. Once I got to riding, I did not want to stop. The temp was just below 60* and sunny. Almost no traffic and beautiful roads with fall colors coming in.
Enough about that, lets get to the tire test...
I left the tire at 35 psi for the entire day and this seems to be a very good setting for me. I really did want to be objective for this test as I have about $90 in the tire and mounting, if I didn't like it I could pull it back off and not be out a ton of money. I did take it a little easy today since it is a new tire, but no different than if it was a new MT. The freeway ride is better than the MT. The bike is smoother riding and does not seem to follow road lines. The E3 did not follow line either. When I got to the long sweeping turns, I did notice that the bike takes a little more effort to turn. Not a bunch by any means. It is like before with the MT, I could just think about the turn and the bike would do it. Now I have to steer the bike through the turn. Wether or not it was me or the tire breaking in, this seemed to decrease as the day went on. On the tighter turns where I had to steer the bike with the MT it is about the same with the CT. There is a short streach where the turns come fast and alternating left-right-left-right..., the CT did a great job and I never felt like I was not in control or that the back end was not going to hold.
I really believe that if I lived in a place where the roads were twisty and every ride ment draging floor boards, I would stay with a MT. However, in my case where the roads are much more mellow and I do alot of freeway and two lane 55 mph riding, The CT is a great alternative that I have no fear in the turns and really enjoy the smoother ride. Please remember these are just my observations and beliefs, yours may very.
Edited by handyhiker 2010-10-16 6:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | john frey - 2010-10-16 3:18 PM
WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT
I agree flatsix on the chains. I relooked and I gasped, you DO NOT want to chain your trailer to your bike, it will take you out if your trailer was to come unhitched for whatever reason. I hope no one will disagree with this, but you are putting you and your pillion in a seriously dangerous position using chains on a motorcycle trailer.
to John, if you are concerned either way about the CT, just do it. I'm not pro/con on the CT, have fun to all who rides one, but you just got to grow accustom to the feel which apparently is not a very large curve.
Edited by varyder 2010-10-16 6:50 PM
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Doesn't DOT require that you have chains on all trailers?
varyder - 2010-10-16 7:47 PM
john frey - 2010-10-16 3:18 PM
WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT
I agree flatsix on the chains. I relooked and I gasped, you DO NOT want to chain your trailer to your bike, it will take you out if your trailer was to come unhitched for whatever reason. I hope no one will disagree with this, but you are putting you and your pillion in a seriously dangerous position using chains on a motorcycle trailer. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | eeeek, you would have to bring the law in on this. If it were I and I wanted to fool the DOT, the chains would be on breakaways that would snap at about a quarter pound of pressure. But think on this EVERYONE - why are chains required on trailers? To keep them behind the vehicle that is pulling them should they come unhooked. Do you believe you have a good change of survival rolling the interstate at 70 mphs and you hit a bump that causes your trailer to come unhitched and begin to flop around?
Agrue, disagree, call me names, put me on your ignore list, whatever, but you are flirting beyond diaster...
handyhiker - 2010-10-16 7:49 PM
Doesn't DOT require that you have chains on all trailers?
varyder - 2010-10-16 7:47 PM
john frey - 2010-10-16 3:18 PM
WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT
I agree flatsix on the chains. I relooked and I gasped, you DO NOT want to chain your trailer to your bike, it will take you out if your trailer was to come unhitched for whatever reason. I hope no one will disagree with this, but you are putting you and your pillion in a seriously dangerous position using chains on a motorcycle trailer.
Edited by varyder 2010-10-16 6:58 PM
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 412
Fargo, ND |
My understanding is chains are a DOT statute...not 1 chain...but 2 chains. I have also heard if your go thru an inspection and the examiner steps down on the chains they had better not break (as in plastic chains).
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | Not that I agree or disagree, just another side...
As a motorcycle rider, I really would not want to see a trailer coming at me with no bike in front of it. If you choose to pull one, than you should take resonsibillity for it at ALL times. I understand it may take you down, but at that point, better you than me. Like I said, this is just the other side of the argument.
varyder - 2010-10-16 7:47 PM
john frey - 2010-10-16 3:18 PM
WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT
I agree flatsix on the chains. I relooked and I gasped, you DO NOT want to chain your trailer to your bike, it will take you out if your trailer was to come unhitched for whatever reason. I hope no one will disagree with this, but you are putting you and your pillion in a seriously dangerous position using chains on a motorcycle trailer.
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Flatsix - 2010-10-16 8:00 PM
My understanding is chains are a DOT statute...not 1 chain...but 2 chains. I have also heard if your go thru an inspection and the examiner steps down on the chains they had better not break (as in plastic chains).
interesting dilemma...
BTW I'm very well aware of the statue and law in the blanket requirement for trailers. No manufacturer of a motorcycle will endorse the use of a trailer, now I know why. I question also, whether any DOT inspector would enforce this on a motorcycle knowing the greater risk.
Edited by varyder 2010-10-16 7:23 PM
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | The problem would be if they don't ride, would they understand?
varyder - 2010-10-16 8:20 PM
Flatsix - 2010-10-16 8:00 PM
My understanding is chains are a DOT statute...not 1 chain...but 2 chains. I have also heard if your go thru an inspection and the examiner steps down on the chains they had better not break (as in plastic chains).
interesting dilemma...
BTW I'm very well aware of the statue and law in the blanket requirement for trailers. No manufacturer of a motorcycle will endorse the use of a trailer, now I know why. I question also, whether any DOT inspector would enforce this on a motorcycle knowing the greater risk. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | handyhiker - 2010-10-16 8:20 PM
Not that I agree or disagree, just another side...
As a motorcycle rider, I really would not want to see a trailer coming at me with no bike in front of it. If you choose to pull one, than you should take resonsibillity for it at ALL times. I understand it may take you down, but at that point, better you than me. Like I said, this is just the other side of the argument.
varyder - 2010-10-16 7:47 PM
john frey - 2010-10-16 3:18 PM
WHAT real chains on that trailer?? YOUR CRAZY for doing that.
I spent a lot of yesterday on youtube watching the dark side on motorcycles and even went to there web site. I want to but then I scrap now and then in corners so would I have to not corner as hard. Wish I could ride one before doing a CT
I agree flatsix on the chains. I relooked and I gasped, you DO NOT want to chain your trailer to your bike, it will take you out if your trailer was to come unhitched for whatever reason. I hope no one will disagree with this, but you are putting you and your pillion in a seriously dangerous position using chains on a motorcycle trailer.
oh boy, more arguements, chances are in this situation you would have an out of control motorcycle and a flopping trailer coming at you, a bigger mass to avoid.
The bottom like is, yes, you better make sure you have positive lock on your hitch and recheck, and check again, then I could go along with chains dangling, in other words a ball type hitch would not be a wise choice, well, the common type found on cars. I think they make a different hitch for motocycles that is more secure.
Edited by varyder 2010-10-16 7:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 258
Akron, Ohio | No arguements, just descussion topics. 
Edited by handyhiker 2010-10-16 7:32 PM
|
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Perhaps I'm confused about the purpose of safety chains.
I thought the point of the safety chains was to keep the trailer attached to the vehicle towing it, while keeping the tongue OFF the road at the same time.
It doesn't seem that the chains would be doing their job if they were long enough to allow the tongue to drag, or worse dig into a depression in an irregular road surface.
Am I missing something?
Edited by Tarpits99 2010-10-16 8:56 PM
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | Tarpits99 - 2010-10-16 8:56 PM
Perhaps I'm confused about the purpose of safety chains.
I thought the point of the safety chains was to keep the trailer attached to the vehicle towing it, while keeping the tongue OFF the road at the same time.
It doesn't seem that the chains would be doing their job if they were long enough to allow the tongue to drag, or worse dig into a depression in an irregular road surface.
Am I missing something?
Thats how I understand the function of safety chains.....they are to be of a length and configuration that will "cradle" the tongue of the trailer and keep it from hitting the ground.
I pull a trailer both behind my SUV and my motorcycle. Ive chosen that for myself and as such I use safety chains. If the trailer comes loose and takes me to the ground thats on me. Id rather have that happen then the trailer take out someone in the other lane.
Ive not had a trailer come loose on a bike.....but I have on an SUV....wasnt really that big of a deal.
In the realm of things would a 200lb trailer take down an almost 900lb bike with potentially 400lbs of riders (2 up or 1 really fat guy).......200 lbs vs 1300 lbs......who knows. My best guess is that it wouldnt be an "instant down" and likely wouldnt be as bad as you think under most conditions. If you and the trailer are both going the same direction there might be some jerking as the trailer sways around by the chains but I cant see it taking the bike down.
Im not real keen on damaging my bike or I would just tow a trailer around town with just the safety chains and see......Im just not THAT adventuresome. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I went out and did a few random pic of bikes with trailers, I didn't notice any car tires (trying to keep thread on topic) but the chains I saw were long and would not keep the tongue up off of the ground and would either allow the tongue to dig in, or move around erratically. Now, just maybe, most folks really don't know the purpose of the chains and the way to hook them up. Having never pulled a trailer yet on my bike I would have to survey the rig before doing so. I think the positive thing is I've never heard of a trailer coming loose from a motorcycle yet. My winger friend hit a pothole after avoiding an erractic driver, and the trailer nearly took he and his wife down when it went crazy for a few moments, but never came undone. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Don't know about trailers on bikes, but I often pull a dump trailer with my pickup. I was told once by a DOT guy once that the chains are supposed to be crossed under the tongue, left-to right/right-to-left. Made sense to me and that is now my practice. Can't see how the tongue could pole-vault the trailer. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | Just to keep on the thread subject...I don't have a car tire on the motorcycle and really don't have much to say about it. But on the trailer chains and trailers in general. I think someday I might do that. But would a trailer with brakes and the chains be better if it came unhooked. A friend, I believe his pop up camper trailer that he pulls with his Wing has brakes. I'm not an expert here, but somebody has to know of someone or experienced a trailer coming unhooked. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | despite all the hash I served up about this, I really hope no one knows what happens when a trailer comes undone from a motorcycle. For the most part, I personally believe that riders, even the sterotype bikers are a little more attentive by nature than most cagers on the road except the ones riding on a car tire. (sorry, I was only trying to keep the thread on topic...honestly...  )
(S4021672 - Copy.JPG)
Attachments
----------------
S4021672 - Copy.JPG (31KB - 1 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 444
Bay of Gigs, WA | What kind of oil should I be using if I pull a trailer without chains? |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | ...depends if you're riding on tar snakes... |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 27
Big Sky | I run 41 lbs in my ct and it works well. Not as squirmy on the gravel with more air in it. Two years on it and still looks new. |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 28
Basehor, Ks. | Mr. Dunlop can kiss my furry little butt. I'm on the darkside now and loving it. This site has been invalueble in so many ways. Passed a huge gaggle of harley riders on my maiden voyage with the tire. None of them were wearing helmets. They call them "organ donors" in the emergency room. Ride Safe |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Buy one of those little aluminum belt spring clips and hook the chains from the trailer to it. If the tongue comes off, te aluminum clip will break away. You stay DOT compliant and don't need to worry about a trailer taking you out.
Good to see the same ole arguments being beat around |
|
| |