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| Problem 1: Riding two up I am having issues with slow speed turn in.....the Vision always seems to want to go wide on any sharp turn at less than 15 mph. Same from stops and taking a right or left turn. Problem 2: In twisties riding two up...... the Vision seems to want to keep leaning in beyond what I want in turns Above problems do not exist riding solo. Thanks for your ideas and help Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-12 9:00 PM
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orrick, mo | Try slapping your rider. They aren't doing the same thing your doing. Honestly have a good chat with your rider about what your expect them to do in any given situation. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I was going to say do more 1up riding before going 2up riding. Then when you know how to ride, school your ride on what to do before getting on the bike. Your life depends on it....
But nah, I'll sit this one out... |
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| We have been riding together for years on sport, tour and sport/tour bikes..... and have not had an issue like this on any of these bikes. Additionally we dont have the problems as stated.... above 15mph...... To me it feels as if the front is unweighted a bit |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | The Vision is a different machine than what most are accustomed too. First, at sit, the Vision weight distro is 50/50. Second, the center of gravity is setting low, and the rigidness of the frame of a bike this size puts another factor in there. I still would encourage you to ride 1up for a time, then do the 2up ride. I read too many times, and I know of a friend who just had an accident and they can be attributed back to not being familiar with that particular bike. Practise, practise, practise has no substitute. |
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Iron Butt
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North Orange County CA | Are you adjusting the rear shock for the added weight of the passenger and gear?
If so you might double check the accuracy of the hand pump gauge. The gauge on my Victory hand pump is totally WORTHLESS; as in off by about 50%.
I use my tire gauge (which is accurate) to set the rear shock pressure.
Edited by Tarpits99 2010-09-12 11:07 PM
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Salina, KS | Tarpits99 - 2010-09-12 11:06 PM
Are you adjusting the rear shock for the added weight of the passenger and gear?
If so you might double check the accuracy of the hand pump gauge. The gauge on my Victory hand pump is totally WORTHLESS; as in off by about 50%.
I use my tire gauge (which is accurate) to set the rear shock pressure.
This is exactly what I found out after searching for my "weird" handling trait when 2up. |
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| Try throttling around the turn. I have found Victorys handle better when giving power through the turns. |
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| varyder - 2010-09-12 11:50 PM The Vision is a different machine than what most are accustomed too. First, at sit, the Vision weight distro is 50/50. Second, the center of gravity is setting low, and the rigidness of the frame of a bike this size puts another factor in there. I still would encourage you to ride 1up for a time, then do the 2up ride. I read too many times, and I know of a friend who just had an accident and they can be attributed back to not being familiar with that particular bike. Practise, practise, practise has no substitute. We already have 3k miles on it .....almost all have been two up so I was thinking the getting to know the bike should be over by now. I have 250+k miles on other bikes over the years but the only issue with the Vision is this slow speed turn in as described in my first post. Given the problem is not there when I am riding solo.....I was thinking it has to do with the extra weight of rding two up but no one here has stated any issues like we have. I have had my wife push forward on the seat a bit and this helps somewhat, but taking tight turns at less than 15mph or moving out from a stop sign/red light for a right or left turn still has the bike wanting to go wide. Maybe if you could go through how you actually take a right or left turn at a redlight with a passanger and cases full might help.....maybe there is something simple/fundamental I am doing wrong. Thx for you input Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-13 9:46 AM
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| RedRider - 2010-09-13 7:09 AM Try throttling around the turn. I have found Victorys handle better when giving power through the turns. You are right there in turns that can be taken at higher speeds..... my issue is very tight turns below 15mph or moving out from a red light for immediate right or left turn and the bike always wants to run wide riding two up. |
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| Tarpits99 - 2010-09-13 12:06 AM Are you adjusting the rear shock for the added weight of the passenger and gear? If so you might double check the accuracy of the hand pump gauge. The gauge on my Victory hand pump is totally WORTHLESS; as in off by about 50%. I use my tire gauge (which is accurate) to set the rear shock pressure. Good point. I did adjust the rear air setting for our combined weights, but will check this with another tire guage. Along these lines I would like to ask if higher air settings in the rear shock increases the back seat height...... compared to lower air settings? Thanks for your reply and suggestion Mike |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | Just a thought not even worth the $.02, with the passenger on, hit a big parking lot, using four parking spaces next to each other, have the passenger dismount and see if you can do the box maneuver solo. Then, if successful, mount passenger (on bike, you could have another sidebar for that comment), then try maneuver again. If unsuccessful, see what mounted passenger is doing, or is she tickling you or trying to drive via joystick, any other info would be great or pictures if necessary.
I find that with the wife on at speed or slow turns, I can feel her trying to dip early into corners and she will shift weight to the inside of a turn instead of staying put in the middle and following me, but when we dance she likes to lead. Maybe we should change spots and I ride b!t@h. Seems to me the bike is far more responsive to what I have ridden previously, which makes it so much fun for me. But just very light hip movement and I or she can move the bike. With no hands on the handlebar, I let her drive from the backseat. She didn't believe me when I told her she could drive. I did it to make her aware of how much input she has on the handling and the direction we go in smoothly or with effort. She gets it now. I also showed her how much of her moving I can control by having her lean as far to the left or right as she was willing to go and that we would still go straight. I highly recommend these demonstrations. My decision maker don't believe it till she sees it.
Once again this is a disclaimer, which did not include his driving skill, oil, handgrips, or the level of his testosterone. However he should play and ride as much as possible, the bike or passenger, where work doesn't interfere. Because you have to make money to keep the toys happy!
:-{)}} Thats a long goatee for those of you who don't know, cause I ain't never figured out how to put those fance cartoon fellers in my posts. |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | yes and let the air totally out of the back shock and you will see just how much, it goes down quite a bit. There is no spring, just a shock.
whew, I feel winded.
Edited by pollolittle 2010-09-13 9:51 AM
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Troy, NY | I know this is a simple thing....however is your front tire at the right psi. When it is low, and low by only a couple of PSI, the tire feels wobbly. I have my front tire close to 40 psi with 2up. Sometimes its the simple things that cause the problem and we out think it. This is only based on experience  |
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| adirondacks - 2010-09-13 10:58 AM I know this is a simple thing....however is your front tire at the right psi. When it is low, and low by only a couple of PSI, the tire feels wobbly. I have my front tire close to 40 psi with 2up. Sometimes its the simple things that cause the problem and we out think it. This is only based on experience I checked tires and rear shocks before our trip last weekend and set to specs......but will check again with the other gauge I have. You are right...simple things do make a big difference. Seat of pants here....but I dont think it is tire pressure related to the slow speed lack of turn in since in moderate turns at higher speeds what happens every so often is the bike everything feels fine....then the bike just falls in too fast as if it is in control and I have to gas it up or change the lean angle. This can happen when tires are set too high. Thx
Edited by team222 2010-09-13 10:26 AM
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| pollolittle - 2010-09-13 10:49 AM Just a thought not even worth the $.02, with the passenger on, hit a big parking lot, using four parking spaces next to each other, have the passenger dismount and see if you can do the box maneuver solo. Then, if successful, mount passenger (on bike, you could have another sidebar for that comment), then try maneuver again. If unsuccessful, see what mounted passenger is doing, or is she tickling you or trying to drive via joystick, any other info would be great or pictures if necessary. I find that with the wife on at speed or slow turns, I can feel her trying to dip early into corners and she will shift weight to the inside of a turn instead of staying put in the middle and following me, but when we dance she likes to lead. Maybe we should change spots and I ride b!t@h. Seems to me the bike is far more responsive to what I have ridden previously, which makes it so much fun for me. But just very light hip movement and I or she can move the bike. With no hands on the handlebar, I let her drive from the backseat. She didn't believe me when I told her she could drive. I did it to make her aware of how much input she has on the handling and the direction we go in smoothly or with effort. She gets it now. I also showed her how much of her moving I can control by having her lean as far to the left or right as she was willing to go and that we would still go straight. I highly recommend these demonstrations. My decision maker don't believe it till she sees it. Once again this is a disclaimer, which did not include his driving skill, oil, handgrips, or the level of his testosterone. However he should play and ride as much as possible, the bike or passenger, where work doesn't interfere. Because you have to make money to keep the toys happy! :-{)}} Thats a long goatee for those of you who don't know, cause I ain't never figured out how to put those fance cartoon fellers in my posts. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......maybe if I could fit a camera in such a way to see what is going on back there when we are riding two up all of this might be solved. Lots of good input in your post and yes I am going to try what you said and let her steer the bike from the back as a means help solving this. Sidebar: I went to a vintage bike rally last week and most showed up on their daily ride new/newer bikes.....but I got out on the Vision solo on one of the group rides which was going the speed limit on a long straight with two lanes each direction.....and to entertain myself I set the Vision on cruise...hopped on the back seat and put my hands on the passenger grab rails and then..... glided by the other bikes in the passing lane. You should have seen their faces when I went by.......hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... |
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Brighton, TN | Done it myself quite a bit. I enjoy the view up there on that perch. There are even a few who are amazed at the other few who do this move, successfully. I have ridden up to 16 miles up there, with no input into the handlebars. Fairly long straights and a few turns involved. Not a big deal, just gotta figure it out.
Don't know if you are aware of the box manuever. But the four parking spots are equivalent for the most part as the box.
Edited by pollolittle 2010-09-13 10:42 AM
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| pollolittle - 2010-09-13 11:40 AM Done it myself quite a bit. I enjoy the view up there on that perch. There are even a few who are amazed at the other few who do this move, successfully. I have ridden up to 16 miles up there, with no input into the handlebars. Fairly long straights and a few turns involved. Not a big deal, just gotta figure it out. Don't know if you are aware of the box manuever. But the four parking spots are equivalent for the most part as the box. I just thought of it since the ride was so boring and 1mph over the speed limit was a no no. I did practive a couple of times just before doing it but it was scarrrrry to go for it with just a few minutes ahead of time trying it out. Now riding like that as you did for 16 miles is a far diff matter than the weinie time I was up on the back seat. Dont know box manuever .....what is this.....am I going to be sorry I asked |
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Visionary
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LaPorte,Tx. | When the rear motorcycle tire on the Vision wears, it wears flat. So, if your making a slow turn left or right, more input from you has be take place to make that slow turn, because at slow speed there is no counter steer happening, your lean angle has to increase to break over that flat tire surface to the edge of the tire. What I do alot when the rear gets worn is drag the back brake through a slow turn and input through the bars while increasing the throttle, you can put that bike just about anywhere on the in the lane by doing that. In the speedy turns, the effect goes away because your counter steering the bike which overrides the rear tire forces and gets you up on the edge of the tire. But as you described you may fall further into the turn than you really want. With that a little throttle will bring you back in line, also, be sure your looking through the apex not at it.
One last thing, when my wife is on the bike, it handles completely different. |
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San Antonio, TX | Here is my Vision riding in the ERC MSF box that is measured 24 feet wide by 60 feel long.
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGCgbEID83U&feature=related
Here's a pretty good visual of it also. You can also go the other way across four spaces.
Edited by pollolittle 2010-09-13 12:49 PM
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Troy, NY | VisionTex - 2010-09-13 1:29 PM
When the rear motorcycle tire on the Vision wears, it wears flat. So, if your making a slow turn left or right, more input from you has be take place to make that slow turn, because at slow speed there is no counter steer happening, your lean angle has to increase to break over that flat tire surface to the edge of the tire. What I do alot when the rear gets worn is drag the back brake through a slow turn and input through the bars while increasing the throttle, you can put that bike just about anywhere on the in the lane by doing that. In the speedy turns, the effect goes away because your counter steering the bike which overrides the rear tire forces and gets you up on the edge of the tire. But as you described you may fall further into the turn than you really want. With that a little throttle will bring you back in line, also, be sure your looking through the apex not at it.
One last thing, when my wife is on the bike, it handles completely different.
Thanks this is great to know!!! |
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Tourer
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| MSF 101 folks.
Are you looking past the turn? If not the Vision is very sensitive with 2 up to go wide if you don't look past the turn. It is very common with group riding and traffic to make this mistake.
I found that I was not looking far enough ahead into the turn (not the ditch or curb) when riding 2 up, and my turns were wide. When I realized what I was doing the bike settled in and snapped right around the turn.
Oh, and another thing. Instead of just letting off the throttle or giving it gas in a turn, I feather the clutch (friction zone) at slower speeds because there is so much torque it will unsettle the weight balance if I fiddle with the throttle in a turn.
Edited by sgiacci 2010-09-13 3:46 PM
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Rhode Island | Team222,
The other thing that comes to mind is that your other half now has a much better view and different position; ask her to pay attention to her movements through a slow speed turn and compare it to previous.
Edited by RhodeTrip 2010-09-13 6:58 PM
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Chattanooga, TN | Just a suggestion, check your tire pressure and condition. I ran 38/38 for some time, (just like Vic recommends) religiously checking tire pressure and rear shock air pressure. I weigh 250 lbs, almost always ride solo and at that tire pressure setting, the front tire was cupping badly. This caused the bike to want to turn sharper than I wanted it to. After replacing the front tire, running 41-42 psi front and rear, it is perfect now. |
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Edmonton AB, Canada | If I need to go parking lot slow while two up I feather the clutch and drag a little rear brake.
The bike stays upright and goes around tight corners easily! |
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| VisionTex - 2010-09-13 1:29 PM When the rear motorcycle tire on the Vision wears, it wears flat. So, if your making a slow turn left or right, more input from you has be take place to make that slow turn, because at slow speed there is no counter steer happening, your lean angle has to increase to break over that flat tire surface to the edge of the tire. What I do alot when the rear gets worn is drag the back brake through a slow turn and input through the bars while increasing the throttle, you can put that bike just about anywhere on the in the lane by doing that. In the speedy turns, the effect goes away because your counter steering the bike which overrides the rear tire forces and gets you up on the edge of the tire. But as you described you may fall further into the turn than you really want. With that a little throttle will bring you back in line, also, be sure your looking through the apex not at it. One last thing, when my wife is on the bike, it handles completely different. Yes......adding throttle when it falls it too much is the answer. This happens to all bikes every now and then when entry speed in a tight to moderate tight turn is not right but seems to happen more with our Vision How does your bike handle diff two up vs solo |
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| VisionTex - 2010-09-13 1:29 PM When the rear motorcycle tire on the Vision wears, it wears flat. So, if your making a slow turn left or right, more input from you has be take place to make that slow turn, because at slow speed there is no counter steer happening, your lean angle has to increase to break over that flat tire surface to the edge of the tire. What I do alot when the rear gets worn is drag the back brake through a slow turn and input through the bars while increasing the throttle, you can put that bike just about anywhere on the in the lane by doing that. In the speedy turns, the effect goes away because your counter steering the bike which overrides the rear tire forces and gets you up on the edge of the tire. But as you described you may fall further into the turn than you really want. With that a little throttle will bring you back in line, also, be sure your looking through the apex not at it. One last thing, when my wife is on the bike, it handles completely different. Yes......adding throttle when it falls it too much is the answer. This happens to all bikes every now and then when entry speed in a tight to moderate tight turn is not right but seems to happen more with our Vision How does your bike handle diff two up vs solo |
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| dcramer - 2010-09-14 12:30 AM If I need to go parking lot slow while two up I feather the clutch and drag a little rear brake. The bike stays upright and goes around tight corners easily!
Great idea........I will try it.
and..........thanks |
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| radioteacher - 2010-09-13 1:37 PM Here is my Vision riding in the ERC MSF box that is measured 24 feet wide by 60 feel long. There is a very massive diff the way you did the tight turn in with great success.... btw.....than I do the same tight turns. Seems to me you are very decisive in dipping into the slow tight turn.....as where I am taking the weinie approach....undecisive and certainly not in command like you were. I will be practicing this procedure and get back to you and everyone. Thanks......and thanks for the video Mike |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | Just did the manuever this morning regarding the box. Fresh off a good night sleep, I was all over the place with no dragging of the rear brake, couldn't do it. So, I stopped to fix my cruise control, and let my brain reset and go over all the steps to accomplish the seemingly easy task.
1. Look up and through the turn all the way, don't look down.
2. Light pressure on the rear brake
3. Friction zone on the clutch and a few more rpms over idle.
4. Using just your rear brake control speed, starting turning left and right into a box of your choosing.
That is lightly condensed. But after doing that this morning, I'm able again to drag metal off of my floorboards and highway pegs and not go very fast. It is amazing to me how this big bike will turn in such a tight corner, and do it with such ease and confidence. |
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Visionary
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San Antonio, TX | Nothing has helped my riding more than the "Ride Like A Pro V" Video. I want to take the course that they teach. I need to go to Houston and sign up.
The "clutch feathering/rear brake dragging" technique that they teach and people talk about here is the best solution for slow speed control.
One of the best scenes is when a petite lady rides the bike two up with the instructor on the back seat. They do 20 foot circles on a Harley.
http://www.ridelikeapro.com/
Ride Safe
Edited by radioteacher 2010-09-14 10:14 AM
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New Bohemia, VA | whoot, whoot on the Po and Radioman. The bottomline on riding a motorcycle is that it takes learned skill, some learn easier than others, but a skill none the less. If you want to ride, ppppplease master the riding and understand what you are acutually doing. There have been times, and even today, while screaming down the interstate that I ask myself "What in the world am I doing?" realizing the dangers that I'm exposing myself too. But then I think that cleaning my gutters are dangerous as well on the 20' extension ladder. The key is know what you are doing by practicing avoiding potential hazards and always ride WITHIN your ability. Some of the post I have read lately really make me concerned for the poster.
Just make sure you insurance policy is up-to-date... |
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Brighton, TN | Please do tell VasafetyRyder, how often do you practice safe gutter cleaning? Do you have a spotter and proper tie off for your ladder? Is your spotter (if you actually have one) CPR qualified, when your skill set happens to fail you, due to not enough proper ladder practice? I'm just wondering!!!
As much as I agree with him, it makes it hard not to occassionally stick him every now and then! Why you ask, because it is FUN? And yes, I used proper typing safety OHSHA approved equipment to send this message. |
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New Bohemia, VA | Ahhh practice safe gutter cleaning...nah...that's why I remind the kin folk who says that ridin' that murder-cycle will kill me, so will cleanin' the gutters. |
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San Antonio, TX | I only clean the gutters when the wife tells me to....which is about twice a year. Now that I think about it my pays for my Life Insurance twice a year.
Ride Safe |
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Beer Collins, Colorado (there is no fort) | Once again you need to put a helmet on http://www.gutterhelmet.com/ I re-roofed and put these on my new gutters this year and hope to eliminate gutter cleaning from my chore list-we'll see-Brian |
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| varyder - 2010-09-14 12:29 PM whoot, whoot on the Po and Radioman. The bottomline on riding a motorcycle is that it takes learned skill, some learn easier than others, but a skill none the less. If you want to ride, ppppplease master the riding and understand what you are acutually doing. There have been times, and even today, while screaming down the interstate that I ask myself "What in the world am I doing?" realizing the dangers that I'm exposing myself too. But then I think that cleaning my gutters are dangerous as well on the 20' extension ladder. The key is know what you are doing by practicing avoiding potential hazards and always ride WITHIN your ability. Some of the post I have read lately really make me concerned for the poster. Just make sure you insurance policy is up-to-date... News for you.......I have been riding for 40 years.......250k-350k + miles.....so frankly I dont need you to tell me to "master the riding and understand what I am acutually doing" because I am here admitting to everyone here I have this single issue with the Vision and need help because this is the first realllllly large tour bike I have owned. I would recommend you don't continue to extrapolate this into anything more than this single issue and what I stated. You dont know me, never rode with me and my guess if you had you would not have seen me that long as I disappeared in the distance and you gave up trying to keep pace then decided it was a good time to for you to stop at Lowes for the owners manual for your new ladder and while you are at it .....pick up a copy of "How to make friends and influence people." My bottom line for you is...... I hope we understand each other now......... Onward Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-17 2:12 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | okay, but the point remains the same, the Vision is doing something you are not use to, practice will help become more accustom to riding the Vision. I don't need to know you, or how many miles or years you've been riding. When I start to feel that I can't handle the bike anymore, I'm selling out. So if you are offended because I care that you survive every ride you make, I guess I do need to find new friends to care about.
Your's truly,
Jackass
PS: I think I we could ride together, if you can keep pace with me as it sound you might be able to.
Edited by varyder 2010-09-17 2:26 PM
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| varyder - 2010-09-17 3:12 PM okay, but the point remains the same, the Vision is doing something you are not use to, practice will help become more accustom to riding the Vision. I don't need to know you, or how many miles or years you've been riding. When I start to feel that I can't handle the bike anymore, I'm selling out. So if you are offended because I care that you survive every ride you make, I guess I do need to find new friends to care about. News part 2 for you........I have rode the Vision 4k miles and still have the slow speed turnin issue I stated........I dont need any more practice......I had a problem and needed to know if this issue is common to everyone and if not what I am doing wrong so I can correct it. I am glad to hear you are the very first person I have ever heard of 40 years that has never had a problem with bike handling or handling a bike in a single respect like me. This says alot. Me wanting to survive is the reason I posted this problem I am having Now do you have some advise on the issue I stated in my initial post or not.........if not........lets not get further into a sidebar discussion that is not on a path that will help me or anyone else.........fair nuff Mike |
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New Bohemia, VA | Since I only had the issue when I first started riding again, both on an '84 Goldwing, and then for about a month a GL1500 and then on the Vision in 5 years time frame. Riding was the only thing that seem to cure my issues with specific problems, and not simply riding, but practice. The Vision does not handle like the other bikes I mentioned which I am extremly thankful. So far, to date on the Vision I have not had a situation that left me concerned except when I was nearly T-boned by a redlight runner.
Two up, parking lots, gravel, snow, pouring rain, blazing wind in 110 degree weather, all of which the Vision and I seem as one. The only thing that scares me is the level of confidence I have on this machine makes me remind me of how dangerous it is.
Sorry I can't help you at this time. |
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Brighton, TN | team222 (Mike) - VasafetyRyder is our resident safety OSHA approved inspector / advisor for all things concerning the Vision. If you don't believe me look in his gallery, he put OSHA approved leather Fringe on his handlebars, so in case his grip was failing, he could tie himself to it. If it weren't for him, there would be a larger pool of keyboard accidents. Safety to him and all riders is his creme' de la creme'! It is his calling of which he is passionate, and for that he excels and exceeds on all accounts, and I applaud him. My guess is he, like I, have run across way to many riders in our geographical location and daily rides, notice, they swing a leg over and now they are riding on a closed course of trained professional drivers in cages. Taking chances they wouldn't normally take. I see it all the time.
Example: Biker comes rollin' by on Harley and I swing in behind him, everything looks cool till he decides hangin' with a Victory ain't so cool and he rolls the throttle and squeezes between two cars doin 60+ down the highway. Why, I don't know, but I am sure it is one of the types of stories with which the Safety Man VaRyder is very passionate. I on the other hand go "DumbASS!" If I had the chance I'd try to talk to him, but otherwise I chalk him up to another statistic, which he will be unless he figures out the safety side of it.
Just cause I feel like typing: Another quick story, I bought a dirt bike from a kid, <20, who was told by dad to buy to learn on and after two weeks decided he was a seasoned pro. He had already purchased the crotch rocket Yamaha R1, when dear ole dad wasn't around I asked how fast, he ante'd up 130+. This after just starting to ride ANY bike. I just kinda shook my head, informed him of a MSF course and a drag strip he could try his bike out at safely. I asked him to be safe and enjoy the ride. End of story!
He's right in that practice makes perfect and everybody should, he just types it more than everyone else. I have personally met the fellow and I personally thought he was a fella you wouldn't mind hangin' out with. Seems to have his head screwed on straight and not to overly opinionated. I brought a fella along with me to meet him (I was in Virginia after all) and the guy was a non biker, but Varyder made him feel comfortable none the less and both of them kinda ganged up with the waitress to hassle me throughout the evening.
Not only that, he is one of those things, as you open the door to vision-riders you will find he is always here, with a statement and an opinion. Which luckily for us is a good thing.
Because if he got up in your thong (not that I know whether or not you wear one, cause I don't know you), it's only a matter of time before I start diggin on ya! Why you ask, because I have DNA with an X in it, and I find it somewhat humorous and so does some of the other folks.
I think my fingers are typing. I think I will copy the above note since it is so long and whenever someone gets all riled up at the VaSafetyRyder, I will just re copy onto the new post. VaSafetyRyder lets start making corrections and/or make a post to get stickied at the top for safety purposes so that you don't have to rehash or recopy all your ideas.
I'm done.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | I'm a visual type of guy. I can usually some up a rider training/experience by how he dresses to ride. If I see a rider with a decent helmet, LONG pants, LONG sleeve shirt, BOOTS, and GLOVES, I now he is a serious, trained, rider. If I see a rider with a pan on his head, shorts, sneakers, muscle shirt, and no gloves, I surmise that rider has no clue of the consequences to task and at some point in time will probably end up road kill. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | well, there you have it. I'm out, as I'm not a full time gear wearer, though it is always long pants and boots all the time and gloves. Also, beyond a MSF ERC I've never taken "Ride like a Pro" or any other course. I step down as Mr. OSHA, or any other title I might have.
well I guess that's my 15 minute of fame gone up in flames....
Edited by varyder 2010-09-17 3:45 PM
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Iron Butt
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Central New York | Can't escape that easy, the only thing off your "all the time" list was a long sleeve shirt. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I will wear a leather vest.... |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | with chains on it. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I took the chains off and went with lace.... |
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Cruiser
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| Soooooooooooo......before this gets further off topic like Cher not wearing NASCAR/MSF/OSHA or Walmart approved apparel when she was riding the 16" gun on the battleship Missouri.......I want to thank everyone for your help and advise. The video is the place to start and I will post my progress.......riding the box video ....not the Cher video. Hummmmmmmmmmm...I wonder if I would have rode better and faster at track days and in roadracing if Cher had walked through the pits with that outfit every so often........yupppppppppppppp is my guess. Victory Vision......one of the best bikes I have ever owned. I am starting there and if I can get myself "up to speed" on my slow speed turnin issue things this bike will be perfect for us....my wife and I....................not Cher and I. Thanks again Mike |
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Cruiser
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Edmonton AB, Canada | the funny thing about experience is that it is not related to time... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Let me take this moment and apologize to team222 and anyone else I may have offended.
We all need to be reminded of our fragility and there are times that we are humbled to the point where we face that. A few post ago I jokily responded to glighto11 post about wearing gear vs. not wearing gear, just minimal coverage. I personally don't want to give anyone the wrong impression about gear, it is vital to your survival, yet the choice to wear it is still up to you. Recently a friend in New England took up riding and got a Harley Ultra Classic, sweet bike and one he is very proud of. In less than a month riding he has an accident. The only way, based on the circumstances explained, he could have avoided it was to second guess peoples intentions, and that is a very difficult thing to do, even with experience. He gets slammed, and spends a few weeks in the hospital, at least one of which was in the ICU. He?s home now and will have many months of recovery, but is looking forwarded to getting back in the saddle. As a newbie, he buys all the necessary gear, gloves, chaps, jackets, full face helmet and so on, and he will tell you that is what saved him, I will tell you that is what saved him. Yet, in the summer months I have gotten into the habit of t-shirt and vest only knowing that will not do anything for me.
Today, I had to get something from the auto parts store where a fellow Vic rider works. He has a Candy-Apply Red TC that is sweet, very sweet. I jumped on my Vision just wearing the T-shirt, Victory of course, jeans, boots, and gloves and away I go. I hadn't seen him in a while and wondered if he even still worked there, but I saw him today and knowing he is an avid rider I asked where the bike was. He responded, "You haven't heard, I crashed about two months ago and I just got out of the hospital." What! What happened? He hit a slick of diesel fuel on an On ramp to the interstate at 5:30 in the morning. He busted the left side of his face, busted some ribs and a few other things. He is waiting for the insurance companies to settle to get back on his bike. He mentioned that he was glad he had all his gear on, and that is the way it is going to stay because that is what saved him. He even did away with the skull-cap and went with a legit half helmet as it was his head that took the first impact when he was thrown. It was good to see him.
When I left, I put on my jacket...
Edited by varyder 2010-09-18 1:03 PM
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Cruiser
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | team222 - 2010-09-12 6:58 PM Problem 1: Riding two up I am having issues with slow speed turn in.....the Vision always seems to want to go wide on any sharp turn at less than 15 mph. Same from stops and taking a right or left turn. Problem 2: In twisties riding two up...... the Vision seems to want to keep leaning in beyond what I want in turns Above problems do not exist riding solo. Thanks for your ideas and help Mike One of my brothers had an 8ball Vision and he was having problems in slow speed turns while riding two up. turns out that there were two problems. 1st was his shock was blown. Wouldn't hold air. Second was the there was some alignment problems, that would actually make the bike go into neutral (false neutral) when he had his wife on the back. Dealer fixed both and he had no more problems with it. |
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Tourer
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Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | Mike, I have read the post's through and want to ask a question because if you stated the bikes you previously owned I did not catch it. A large fixed fairing bike takes some getting used to, mostly at slow speed. I run Bridgestone front tires and the steering input at slow speeds is faster but not twitchy. I always run 40 psi in ft tire. Having the air pressure in shock set at what is recomended two up is too high for me. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | wroman - 2010-09-19 5:41 AM
Mike, I have read the post's through and want to ask a question because if you stated the bikes you previously owned I did not catch it. A large fixed fairing bike takes some getting used to, mostly at slow speed. I run Bridgestone front tires and the steering input at slow speeds is faster but not twitchy. I always run 40 psi in ft tire. Having the air pressure in shock set at what is recomended two up is too high for me.
+1 - that is a factor that I've heard many note when going to a fixed fairing for the first time.
+1 - for JustBob, a great point. Always recheck your stuff to make sure there is not a mechanical issues. We all have a tendancy to think everything is in order and it is just me, when the machine is really out of order.
Hope it works for you and keep us posted. |
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Cruiser
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| varyder - 2010-09-18 2:01 PM Let me take this moment and apologize to team222 and anyone else I may have offended. Thank you....but you really did not have to apologize.......things like this just happen. However, to do so for the world to see is the sign of a person we all want ride with and know. I doubt you have got yourself in more binds on forums than I have .....so lets move forward to meeting up sometime and go from there. You are not that far from Harrisburg, PA and we get to Marlinton, WV often for rides....infact will be there if all goes well October 8 - 10 at the Marlinton Motor Inn along with other friends. Think on it. I have been on forums from the get go and it is a difficult media to communicate unlike a rally for example when everyone can see each other and it only takes a second or so to formulate the right answer each time until that topic is done and another started. Plus, being able to see the other person/and hearing exactly what is said and how they say it..... is far more exacting than typing. So thank you for your thoughts and soon with all this input I hope to get past the slow speed turn in issue with all this help. Additionally, I am going to contact a motorcycle road race suspension expert I know on what mechanically could cause this as another path beyond what everyone has stated in this thread as a means to make sure everything is covered Best and hope to see you and everyone at the Vision rally this coming weekend near Harrisburg Mike |
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Cruiser
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| wroman - 2010-09-19 5:41 AM Mike, I have read the post's through and want to ask a question because if you stated the bikes you previously owned I did not catch it. A large fixed fairing bike takes some getting used to, mostly at slow speed. I run Bridgestone front tires and the steering input at slow speeds is faster but not twitchy. I always run 40 psi in ft tire. Having the air pressure in shock set at what is recomended two up is too high for me.
Amen..............and very good point.
Prior Bikes: From the get go in the 1960s most of my bikes have been sport based. BSA Goldstar road racer, other fast agile singles, Moto Guzzi V7 Sport, 75 Goldwing made into an endurance racer, 1980 Honda CBX early model that over time I finally got to handle, 89 FZR 1000, Aprilia Caponord set up for the back roads and two up touring ............and before the Vision.........a Concours 14. Each of these bikes required finite adjustments over time to get what I wanted in handling and balance ........the CBX taking 15 ....one step at a time years to get straightened out. Additionally and to be fair the Concours 14 also had turnin issues at slow speed riding two up but much less than the Vision.
My Large Fixed Fairing Bike Experience: You were toooo kind in your post...........so I know and will admit I was the least prepared of any of you by past riding experience for a big tour bike like the Vision....but at this stage in life the thought was it might just be time for me to grow up a bit .........plus my wife and I wanted the option to talk long trips both loved the Vision over all the big tour bikes we did demos.....infact we did three demos on the Vision to make sure and I dont recall this slow speed turn in being such an issue for us as our Vision. Tires on our Vision: Dunlop ElitesFrom all this in the past one thing became clear to me.....having a bike that handled real good solo did not mean that same bike would handle two up. This Vision is no exception but it is the best solo and two up both with the sole problem being the issue. Bottom line I have no slow speed turn in issues riding solo...........buttttt, slow speed turnin problems riding two up.
Tire Pressure: I have been running the tire pressure recommended by Victory in the front and back Shock Pressure: Same....what is recommended, but this also seems to high for us also since it gives jolting ride over bumps.
With everyone help I will get to the bottom of this, but I think given all the input I just am not comfortable getting the bike down into slow turns for fear of it falling over and I am causing some/most took these tight/slow turns tooooo slow and as such had to go wide or the bike would fall over since I was already going wayyyyyyyy too slow. If that makes sense the way I typed it.
As such at this point, I am thinking most of this might be me simply not knowing how to ride the bike at the right speed with authority and skill in slow speed turns since no one else has confirmed this issue to the degree I have it.............so practicing the box thing that was recommended will be the first step and keep practicing until I get confident with this.........and along with this keep checking the tire and shock pressure to make sure they stay constant......... Thanks
Mike
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Cruiser
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One of my brothers had an 8ball Vision and he was having problems in slow speed turns while riding two up. turns out that there were two problems. 1st was his shock was blown. Wouldn't hold air. Second was the there was some alignment problems, that would actually make the bike go into neutral (false neutral) when he had his wife on the back. Dealer fixed both and he had no more problems with it. Great input. I am going to check the rear shock more often. Can you go into the false neutral issue a bit more. Curious.....does he still have the 8 Ball? Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-19 9:36 AM
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Cruiser
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Northern NJ | team222 - 2010-09-19 9:21 AM
? You are not that far from Harrisburg, PA and we get to Marlinton, WV often for rides....infact will be there if all goes well October 8 - 10 at the Marlinton Motor Inn?along with other friends.? Think on it.Best and hope to see you and everyone at the Vision rally this coming weekend near Harrisburg Mike
Yeah, Marlinton is right on US 219, a fantastic road for motorcycles. Back in June we cruised on there for 90+ miles without a stop sign or traffic light. Amazing. Of course most of the roads in WV are just plain beautiful... |
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Cruiser
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | Basically when riding two up, the alignment problem combined with the bad shock caused the bike to go out of gear in a slow speed turn. (parkinglot speeds). I don't know what the problem was any more specifically, but they fixed the issue with very little work. He went down three times with his wife, no hurt but she was leery of riding the bike even after the fix, so he traded on a cross country. He says now he wishes he would have kept the Vision. Oh well, live and learn. |
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Cruiser
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| JustBob - 2010-09-19 11:15 PM Basically when riding two up, the alignment problem combined with the bad shock caused the bike to go out of gear in a slow speed turn.? (parkinglot speeds).? I don't know what the problem was any more specifically, but they fixed the issue with very little work.? He went down three times with his wife, no hurt but she was leery of riding the bike even after the fix, so he traded on a cross country.? He says now he wishes he would have kept the Vision.? Oh well, live and learn. Thanks for this input. I agree with your brother.......we rode the Cross Country a couple of times on demo rides our dealer had and for us....... it was no Vision Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-20 6:13 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | He listed years and now we know he's an old guy! OHHHH! Can it get any worse! But I do remember theh Cher riding the barrel of that Battleship and I was in the Navy at the time, wondering to myself why she didn't come over to our ship. I was a young pup then but would have been happy to see the older lady in her outfit.
This is just me speaking out loud. But I notice with no brake input on a slow speed turn, I wind up giving it more throttle to stay upright, which my speed increases quickly, forcing me to go further out, way out. Can you drag your floorboards in a tight turn? I can, but for most it is quite unnerving to say the least with that amount of weight shifting in a hurry. It seems to be unnatural for a lack of better words. But seems to be easily manageable by using only the back brake, and most people absolutely hate a tight right turn. Try sneakin' a cheek over to the outside edge of the seat, to help offset the weight shift to the inside as quickly, to see if that helps. Then if it does, you know it really is YOU. Then, as you continue to make the turns, have your cheek move back to the center of the bike.
How did you do it before on some of the smaller bikes? Seems the longer wheelbase adds another dimension of perplexity, which you may not be accustomed to and of course just the sheer weight of the bike, gets its own respect.
Do tell, have you tried it yet, I gotta know? Well? How about now? Anything? C'mon fess up old timer? |
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Cruiser
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| pollolittle - 2010-09-20 10:24 AM He listed years and now we know he's an old guy! OHHHH! Can it get any worse! But I do remember theh Cher riding the barrel of that Battleship and I was in the Navy at the time, wondering to myself why she didn't come over to our ship. I was a young pup then but would have been happy to see the older lady in her outfit. This is just me speaking out loud. But I notice with no brake input on a slow speed turn, I wind up giving it more throttle to stay upright, which my speed increases quickly, forcing me to go further out, way out. Can you drag your floorboards in a tight turn? I can, but for most it is quite unnerving to say the least with that amount of weight shifting in a hurry. It seems to be unnatural for a lack of better words. But seems to be easily manageable by using only the back brake, and most people absolutely hate a tight right turn. Try sneakin' a cheek over to the outside edge of the seat, to help offset the weight shift to the inside as quickly, to see if that helps. Then if it does, you know it really is YOU. Then, as you continue to make the turns, have your cheek move back to the center of the bike. How did you do it before on some of the smaller bikes? Seems the longer wheelbase adds another dimension of perplexity, which you may not be accustomed to and of course just the sheer weight of the bike, gets its own respect. Do tell, have you tried it yet, I gotta know? Well? How about now? Anything? C'mon fess up old timer? "He" is me I guess so here I am ......fessen up. I am old....but along way wore out knee pads at track days and road racing and with near or no cheeks on the seat....so I never thought that moving half a cheek over on the seat of a big tour bike would solve the running wide on very slow tight runs, but will give it a try since half a cheek for me is big, heavy and wide....it could work. Stuff you guys are used to on big tour bikes can be an daunting for those of us that dont have experience on them This does not mean we dont know anything about bikes or not knowing how to ride in all cases.........oftne I think it might mean an issue or so with ownership of a our first big bike and we need some help. Few other examples: 1. I am not used to looking through windscreens. The Vision on low windscreen setting has me looking over it on the interstates but on back roads right into the line at the top of the screen on hills. Cresting a hill and a sharp turn is a nightmare....all I see is the top of the windsreen line going up and down right where I want to see. I will be buying another stock one soon from someone here and plan to cut 1.25" off the top. 2. Length the bike from my helmet to the windscreen seems like 5 miles or so as where other bikes I have owned this is not a factor. My plan to be in control in slow speed turns based on your help: Back brake, half cheek, practice and practice in the box are on my notes to try next time we get out along with checking tire and back suspension pressures. Thanks Keep in mind.....old sometimes does not mean feeble, stupid and gasping for ones last breath.....what it can mean is knowing when to ask when a problem can not be solved.....and by doing so admitting one does not know everything about everything and everyone. Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-20 12:15 PM
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Cruiser
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Salina, KS | team 222...I believe this was mentioned, but let me relate a story that happened to me just this past weekend. I wanted to "play" with the air pressure preload adjustment in the rear shock, so I set it 10 psi higher than where it had been, but still almost 15 psi below the recommended setting. We took off, 2-up, & in 75 miles of highway driving I was ready to dismount & bleed it off, but wanted to see how it handled in stop & go / city traffic....it was waaaaaay worse than I could have imagined. It felt as though the front tire had a 1000 lb weight setting on it, very difficult to initiate slow speed turns, almost impossible to navigate parking lots without the feeling of tipping over, just a general "dump truck" sense of steering input. So to make a long story longer, rear preload adjustment is critical to finding that sweet spot for each individual's liking. |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN |
team222, I use sarcasm and tidbits of old school poking fun at you, just cause I have been passed along that section of the DNA chain which controls such manners. The way in which you type leads one to believe if we were on a different CAFE style race bike, I might be the one looking for turn in controls, methods of knee dragging, and how to keep 160+ horses tied down coming out of a corner over a 100+ mph. Which of course I have no experience! But it sure sounds like fun.
There is a short Victory brand windshield which is just a few inches shorter, which might be to your liking, and with the electric window (windshield) it might give you the adjustable height you were looking for. You could even go with the blade shield, but that will let a lot of air blow in, give it a go and lets us know what you choose.
I started on a 1977 Kawasaki KZ1000 600-700lb bike stock, then added a Windjammer II fairing, mounted to the frame and had to look through the windshield. It was quite the unforgiving bike, big and burly, with a mustache. It took a bit of practice and a lot of confidence to tool around on it.
For anybody that is retired or active US military, the bases offer the Motorcycle Safety Foundation courses for FREE. Just check with the local bases and get signed up for the Advanced or Experienced rider course. Normally a day course, with 90 percent riding on a closed course, with the box method included in that. I had a blast literally, the guys would let me go as fast as my pucker factor would allow. Yeehaw!
Well the sneek a cheek method, was in regards to tackling the box, for those having trouble with all that weight dropping to the inside of the turn. You can let the bike lay over further into the turn, without your body dipping in with the bike. |
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | The bit about using the rear brake with throttle may be counter-intuitive, but it really works. It allows more control. I have never tried the 'sneaky cheek' method, cause I like to be centered on the bike, but could work if you practice it. I played around in a large empty parking lot at slow speed getting comfortable grinding the floor boards getting comfortable with the amount of lean the bike was capable of. I come from a dirt bike background so many of the things that became habitual in the dirt became ingrained parts of my riding styles. On other bikes like my 02 TC, I use almost exclusively the front brake, where on the Vision I use both with a little more emphasis on the front, but seeing that actuating the rear brake hard also actuates the front I have b ecome more comfortable using the rear brake. the only time i used the rear brake on my dirt bikes was when i needed the rear end to swiing out. Someone else also said something about the different feelings of the bike at different rear shock pressures. You might try that as well, adding more or bleeding some to see what the feel does. Good luck Bubba. |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | Finally some validity to my existence, thanks JustBob. I almost cried.
Just a question but what is ETC, ETC, ETC. I have never heard of those bikes, before. Please list it looks interesting. |
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Cruiser
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | ETC is a Honda 750 4 roller, 2d ETC is a Virago 750, and the other ETC is an 1100 Virago. I also have a couple of vintage dirt bikes. |
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Cruiser
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| JustBob - 2010-09-22 1:03 PM The bit about using the rear brake with throttle may be counter-intuitive, but it really works. It allows more control. I have never tried the 'sneaky cheek' method, cause I like to be centered on the bike, but could work if you practice it. I played around in a large empty parking lot at slow speed getting comfortable grinding the floor boards getting comfortable with the amount of lean the bike was capable of. I come from a dirt bike background so many of the things that became habitual in the dirt became ingrained parts of my riding styles. On other bikes like my 02 TC, I use almost exclusively the front brake, where on the Vision I use both with a little more emphasis on the front, but seeing that actuating the rear brake hard also actuates the front I have b ecome more comfortable using the rear brake. the only time i used the rear brake on my dirt bikes was when i needed the rear end to swiing out. Someone else also said something about the different feelings of the bike at different rear shock pressures. You might try that as well, adding more or bleeding some to see what the feel does. Good luck Bubba. Exactly......when one has a totally different riding background..........dirt or sport bikes for example....some things that apply there do not apply to the Vision or my guess any big touring bike. I am going to go to a large parking lot just like you did and other suggested with some small plastic cups and give that a go to start ......try the box, apply the rear brakes in tight right turns..... and then on to drag the floor boards once I am ready ...and get comfortable with all this and the other suggestions made in this thread to help. I feel it it can be done.......in this case done already by many Vision owners.....I should be able to do it also. The real issue I had was the Vision was so far from my riding experience range all I could do was define the problem for everyone here and hope they would provide specific answers/suggestions. Now it is up to me to do it by trying each suggestion and practicing until it becomes something that I dont have to think about....it just happens. This has been a real lesson for me in realizing that just because I rode sport based bikes, did track days and road racing plus rode trails bikes this did not prepare me for everything in riding the Vision. I am starting to think because of this thread that some of those that have helped here now realize that because they can ride the Vision without issue ....this might not prepare them for sportbikes, roadracing, moto cross, trails bikes, stunt bikes..... and/or drag bikes.....whatever. The PA Fall Vision Rally will start here this afternoon so this will give me another alternative to talk to Vision owners face to face on this slow turn in issue Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-23 7:18 AM
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Tourer
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Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I owned a BMW K1200LT for a few years and that bike had a reputation for ill handling at slow speed. The user group web sight even had a "droppers anonymus" link to relate your experience of dropping the bike. One thing that helped on that bike was adding a Bill Mayer seat. The seat had firm support on the outer sides enough to give your butt feedback on how much the bike is leaning, it helped greatly. I know what you are trying to convey and alot of getting through it is just figuring the style it takes. IN very slow stuff, like parking lots,where the possibility of needing to stop or make corrections I will drop my feet off the floorboards. It lowers my center of gravity and help if I have to stop quick. I cannot stress the correct shock pressure, if set too high the bike is twitchey under speed and is slow to turn in under in-town riding. I heard that some gauges are inaccurate, I have the H-D gauge from a pervious bike and finding the right pressure makes riding one up-two up-two up loaded about equal. ON the way back from AVR there would be times after checking into a hotel we would ride to dinner. Without changing the shock pressure I would run wide on slow speed turns all the time. THis is a big looong wheelbase bike, set the suspension right and adjust to the steering input. For me and I have owned all the big tourers, except the Yamaha V, there is no better handling bike. It helps if you pay attention to where you want to go not where you are going. |
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | wroman - 2010-09-23 5:51 AM It helps if you pay attention to where you want to go not where you are going. This is another thing that cannot be emphasized enough. If you are looking down instead of looking where the bike needs to go, you will go down. Another dirt bike adage. When on a whoop or a jump on the dirt bike, you never look down, you look where you will be landing cause if you look where you want to land, all other things being correct, you will land correctly. Same thing on a bike. Friend of mine was riding on I10 and in the lane ahead he spied a concrete block. He fixated on the block instead of where he needed to be going to get around the block. He said it was like the block drew him into it. Instead it was target fixation and he looked himself right into the block. Try it some time with a line or something in the road, and see if you can avoid it while looking directly at the object. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | ...this is just one of many on target fixation... perhaps the cause of many otherwise unexplainable motorcycle crashes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETT39gPGCps&feature=related |
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Visionary
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San Antonio, TX | Great video varyder! Here is on of my favorites on target/object fixation.
From 1:53 to 2:54 is the best section of this video for target/object fixation.
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| My issue is riding two up..........and a. at a stop light taking a tight right or left turn.....the Vision wants to go wide. b. same in very tight, slow up hill turns Could be just me, could be wrong, but I dont think "target fixation" is possible or my issue at 3mph to say 8mph when circumstances are a and b above. Over the weekend I was able to ride the bike solo for 400 or so miles at the PA Vision Rally........... and applying the rear brake as suggested in conditions a and b above....problem solved. It was amazing and frankly I would have never figured that to be an answer....esp....given the bikes I have ridden before Next up is to give the rear brake a go two up......very high hopes.........thanks to all the suggestions here........ Mike |
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Brighton, TN | Ahhhh, the small things in life that we figure out and makes a light bulb go off, now if someone could enlighten me with a light bulb about women. UHHH, Nevermind, I prefer to leave the light switch off and just go to the shop.
Good to hear you got it figured out. I too was quite amazed, at applying the rear brake would slow that big beast down and make it controllable. Now, once you got that figured out, I want you to do the 20 ft box without the brake and treat it like a big sport bike with attitude, because to do it like that you really have to commit and shift weight and put a metal knee pad on and work that baby like your a twentysomethingstudmuffin. |
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| pollolittle - 2010-09-28 9:24 AM Ahhhh, the small things in life that we figure out and makes a light bulb go off, now if someone could enlighten me with a light bulb about women. UHHH, Nevermind, I prefer to leave the light switch off and just go to the shop. Good to hear you got it figured out. I too was quite amazed, at applying the rear brake would slow that big beast down and make it controllable. Now, once you got that figured out, I want you to do the 20 ft box without the brake and treat it like a big sport bike with attitude, because to do it like that you really have to commit and shift weight and put a metal knee pad on and work that baby like your a twentysomethingstudmuffin. Credit where credit is due. "We" never figured it out...........you and other guys did and told me what to do....then I tried it .....and it worked great and solved running wide in slow tight turns by using rear brake Next time out will be the box deal. No prediction for this but my confidence is heading upward after the rear brake in slow tight turns to avoid running wide worked out. I used to ride trails bikes wayyyyyyyyyy back when for fun and near full lock turns were something that were easy....but ofcourse these bikes weighted 190lbs.........not 890lbs. Updates to follow......and thx x 1000 Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-28 8:50 AM
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | po, I needs to come to Tennersee and larn wat to du in der box. I'm a highwayman but can hold my own in the parking lot, beyond that, I can't do the tricks like scrapping floorboards in a full circle turn, but I can make 'em sing on an off/on ramp. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | for all you naysayers about a big bike doing tight turns, check this out. I aspire to be him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99KKx7cB-Ok&feature=related |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | Pollolittle,
That video is my goal! That the best riding I have ever watched!
RIde.....like the officer in the video!!! |
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Woodland Hills, CA | radioteacher - 2010-09-28 2:02 PM
Pollolittle,
That video is my goal! That the best riding I have ever watched!
RIde.....like the officer in the video!!!
DITTO!!! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Get the video from RideLikeAPro.com and practice, practice, practice... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 119
| I will be real happy to ride like an amateur as a step up from riding like a novice on my first big tour bike  |
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | ScoreBo - 2010-09-28 3:40 PM
Get the video from RideLikeAPro.com and practice, practice, practice...
Better yet, take the course! You'll appreciate it even more once you have actually tried it. Then as the man said, practice, practice, practice!! |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | ...these guys are having too much fun. If I hadn't joined the Army I probably would have been one of these blue and grays...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQZdTJSVbIw |
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Atlanta Area | And here's a vid for those who think the Vision can't do tight turns....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQRq0xgrP1g |
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Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | I watched someone do the same scraping at a demo in San Antonio. No curb jump or burnout but they did the turns! |
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Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | That's what I was talking about practicing in an empty parking lot. the bike will lean forever and not lose stiction. I am not as good as the guy in the video, but I can scrape both boards without issue. |
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| 1atom12 - 2010-09-28 9:37 PM And here's a vid for those who think the Vision can't do tight turns.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQRq0xgrP1g If you take a close look at the 34-35 second range into this video ........he comes realllllly close to high siding the bike..........and himself.
Edited by team222 2010-09-29 11:32 AM
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New Bohemia, VA | remember, with every scrape the angle of your bike will change on the next scrape, but that just makes it cooler, right? |
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Akron Ohio area | The Vision rider in this video did NOT impress me with his antics.
He was out of control several times and anyone who beats up their tires and rims hopping a curb like that is an idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQRq0xgrP1g
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | team222 - for all of his showing off skills, had he not over corrected he would have been able to stand it back up without a lot of drama. You can see the tail giving way and then he panicked. almost made me laugh, I forgot he did that.
And then I notice that his rear tip overs are quite worn down. It looks like he's been showing this trick to sell the bikes.
Edited by pollolittle 2010-09-29 12:45 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | ...that near highside action is what made me stop trying to scrap boards all the time. I would get myself into the a hard turn and say "cool" I finally scrapped a floorboard and I would do a few times a week or so there for a while. One day I hit a slab of concrete on an exit ramp that was up about an inch and I didn't like the shake it did when it made the rear tire jump a little.
Back in the day when I was riding my little CB750 Custom I was making a hard left and the centerstand nub caused the rear tire to come off the road and I went over the bars. Made me a wussy, but I still love to ride.... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Dear Diary:
Today I stopped at the Victory shop and looked at the Vision. It looks like a freaking spaceship! Man thats one cool bike, I want one pretty bad.
The salesman offered me a smoking deal on their demo! Its Black too, just like I wanted, and it only has a couple of hundred miles on the clock!
Is somebody watching out for me or what?!!!
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Cruiser
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| Google any expensive 1938 car........coupe...... and you will find what looks alot like the Vision side case area and other styling cues. Check the link below........ http://www.bid123sold.com/Portals/0/Buick/1938%20Buick%20Special%20Convertible%206394.JPG I know I am the only one in the world thinks it has retro style cues also.....but had to say it Mike
Edited by team222 2010-09-29 9:16 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | ...one of the very first review points this out, art deco is the term used. I even felt that was the styling when I first saw it before I read any article I would try to decribe relative to concept drawings in the 50 and 60's of futuristic vehicles. I was always partial to the bentley though...
Edited by varyder 2010-09-29 9:23 PM
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | To 222, I am going to say what no one else would: it is not your fault. No one asked you the combined weight of you and your pillion when riding 2 up. If it is over 350 pounds, and I am being generous, then the riding characteristics are going to be radically different. While we were all quick to offer riding tips, the truth is that the slow handing characteristics of the vision when riding 2 up are bad. I believe it is an inherent problem with the frame geometry when put under the strain of additional weight without the compensation of additional torque. I believe this is why the fix of front loading the torque works, though it should not be required. I have ridden 3 different BMW touring models, as well as 2 different Honda touring models, and while this problem was present on the Valkyrie interstate and the BMW lt, it is much more pronounced on the vision. This is due, I believe, to the larger front wheel on the vision that requires a lower speed to establish the gyroscopic effect (I believe- I got a b in physics but this was not an area I stayed awake for! The gyro effect would keep the bike upright, and cause you to have a wider turning radius) and I think that the inverted forks also play into the problem, as well as the design of the frame itself. I am not an engineer, but would be delighted if one would step forward and offer up an opinion. I love my vision, but she is positively unruly in the parking lot and at intersections when 2 up. Weight is a huge part of the dynamic, and I am frankly surprised that no one asked. My wife and I max out the gvwr of our bike, and you better believe she is completely different when I am solo. But to require that you re-learn how to ride for the situation is a design defect, not a quirk. Anyone with a quarter million miles under his belt should have a max learning curve of a thousand miles on ANY bike, one up or two. If your bike requires more retraining than that, the problem is with the bike, not the rider. Please keep in mind this is for normal riding situations, not extraordinary.
Once again, I love you all, especially my VA brethren, but this time, I think we have to look at the design a little more closely, for that specific application.
Edited by Birdneckrider 2010-09-29 11:59 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | ...when the Vision is different than any other bike on the planet, I would expect riders with less riding time to adjust to it faster. I don't know about all that geometry stuff, and I got an A in it and I know that it applies in principle, it is not a prerequisite to have a degree in it to ride. I'll maintain the "learning" factor and most do it without thinking, but the ones who seem to have the greatest issues presented here on the forum is the "I've been riding for 40 years and have a zillion miles to my name."
Cargo will always be a factor, and the wife and I are cargo, probably above the GWR together. I'm a weinie and a newbie in motorcycle riding, and find the same confidence in the Vision riding two up in and around around town as I do solo. I get hit on the head a lot by her when I ride like I am solo and she's with me.
The man from the swamp rest from this discussion.
[peace and comfort to Tony Curtis's family, he just passed away - another great American icon] |
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | Rider to ryder- I was looking at the issue from a product liability standpoint and suitability for use- yes, I know it is legal wonk stuff, but it is also the way that the manufacturer looks at it, as well as DOT. No bike is perfect, and I regard the Victory Vision as better in more areas than most full size tourers. I stop when it comes to professing superiority in performance over other established segment leaders, namely the goldwing and the k1200lt. In terms of choosing form over function, the Vision comes out on top. But for function over form, the LT is still the more polished and safer bike. And not in production- yes, I know. The reason why the LT handles so well at low and high speed maneuvering is all about the frame geometry and front and rear suspensions, the paralever and duolever, which dynamically handles the weight distribution better than any other current setup. With that said, I will officially try out my Vision on the BRP this weekend and then I can comment more on twisty response, rather than using my book knowledge, which is highly suspect to begin with. Have I mentioned how much "naches" I have for all of you that take time out to help others on this forum? I'm talking about you, teacher and ryder and paradox and sgiachi and tarpitts and.....you get the point.
Edited by Birdneckrider 2010-09-30 6:01 AM
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | How jackasses mate...er, sell each other bikes...in the wild. You can do the same crap on just about any powerful bike, especially when it has training wh...I mean, wings! But it was still sorta cool, I guess. There's one demo I won't be buying! |
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New Bohemia, VA | ...well, again, experience can and does play an important role. But then there is the old adage of those who can't - teach. But having only owned a total of 3 bikes in my life with a combined mileage of about 170,000 miles in 8 cumulative years, I don't have much experience. But I do like to crack a nut on things I don't understand, and listening to a ton of so called experience that often gets spew about, I often miss the point because it doesn't do that with me. My bike just before the Vision was the GL1200 and the similarities in riding ends with the fact they both had Dunlop E3's on them, even they were different, the Wing had bias tires. One of the reason's I flood this forum is to get the flood of information in return for not only myself, but others who are trying to sort through the piles of myth and facts. From my perspective it has served me very well though it became an extreme irratant to others, but that is how pearls are made.
I would have loved to have ridden the sundry of other bikes people talk about just to say "yeah" I rode that. I rode a Harley once, and though it was a cool ride and it sufficed for the purpose, I wasn't itchin' to go buy one. In fact the balkiness of it made me feel I wasn't grown up enough to ride. That is something I have never felt with the Vision, inspite of its mass, to me it is far more agile than GL1200 or the Harley I rode. True, in mastery I could have become acclimated to the feel, but with the Wing, I had to learn to second guess what it would do. It often wanted to go places I didn't want it to go and came close to losing it a few times. Within seconds I felt the Vision and I have been buddies for a life-time, and if you dare or care you can hunt up posts from back in November 07 on where I have yet to change my stance that this is a one of a kind machine, and others who have rolled many miles will say the same.
Edited by varyder 2010-09-30 6:39 AM
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | I probably agree with you on most of this, and if I hear you tell one more person that you are a noob with only 170k miles under yourbelt, I think I will hurl. I believe, in thiss day and age, that every bike in the victory line should come standard with ABS. When is the last time you saw a car offered without abs? And why reverse is still optional and not standard on the vision is a mystery. Anyway, have a great weekend, and get out there-should be in the high 60's for us-nice fall riding weather! |
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| What about for people like me? I don't want ABS on any of my bikes or reverse on my Vision?
I do think the Vision can hold its own maneuvering in a parking lot, and can certainly show most bikes up in the twisties. I know I have rubbed the tip overs though turns before. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | OK Birdneckrider, since you've gone "there" and invoked the gods of science. I have no choice but to dust off my diploma and act as if I was not hung over, or sleeping during physics and algebra. Having thusly established my anti-intellectual bona-fides, I am now going to attempt to explain the effect as I see it.
One of the purposes of the adjustable ride height feature on the rear shock is to help maintain the steering geometry when loaded.
Operating on that premise, it follows that the simplest test to determine if you have adversely effected the geometry is if you have to adjust your mirrors when riding two up. If you do, then it is logical that you have not pumped up the shock enough to maintain the original relationship between rake and trail.
The torque of acceleration naturally causes a chain or belt driven bike to squat a little therefore exacerbating the change in geometry already caused by the added weight of passenger and gear. Interestingly this is the opposite reaction from that of the Wing and BMW (from which most of the comparisons are being drawn) which rise in the back under acceleration due to the torque reaction caused of the shaft drive.
When the rear brake is operated at low speed it has the opposite effect of acceleration (since we don't have full floating calipers), causing the back of the bike to rise slightly compensating somewhat for the geometry change that would be caused by the squatting of acceleration and thus we are going to turn in tighter more easily.
Or it could be witchcraft.....I think. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | ...ha, how about the headlight. Once the wife and left in the early evening for a dinner date. I didn't bother to pump up the shock since it was just a short ride. On the way home after the sun went down, the headlight was shining into the eyes of drivers and the tops of trees.
I find 60psi sets us at the solo height underway, though it does a Hiyo, Silver, away, and rears up on taking off. |
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New Bohemia, VA | ...speakin' of pillions, your ride is affected by how the pillion reacts. They need education before getting on the bike on what to do. |
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Cruiser
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Extreme Southern, AZ United States | (I believe- I got a b in physics but this was not an area I stayed awake for! The gyro effect would keep the bike upright, and cause you to have a wider turning radius) and I think that the inverted forks also play into the problem, as well as the design of the frame itself.
Well, I don't know what bike you are riding, but my front fork is NOT inverted. I also can drag floorboards with the YL on the back (though she starts hitting me across my back after the second scrape) and don't find the VV poor handling. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 119
| Vision at Deals Crapp.............real action starts at the 3 minute mark or so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T18KxY_sJc&feature=related
Edited by team222 2010-10-01 1:09 AM
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | Ok, somebody help me out. While the fork is conventional telescopic, i was under the impression that if the compression side of the fork was on top it was considered inverted, which is how the forks are on the Vision. I believe most newer bikes ate being done this way. Am I off base? |
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| Birdneckrider - 2010-10-01 7:34 AM Ok, somebody help me out. While the fork is conventional telescopic, i was under the impression that if the compression side of the fork was on top it was considered inverted, which is how the forks are on the Vision. I believe most newer bikes ate being done this way. Am I off base? Here is a link on the different types of motorcycle forks for you to check out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_fork In my view there are three types of forks on most bikes today. Telescopic, Upside Down (USD in the article and sometimes called inverted) and Telelever used on BMWs. See the article And yes.... when I was young some of the old "antique" fronts in the article were on bikes being ridden in those days..... >>>>>> I have a suggestion.........some of us from VA, DC, MD, PA ......get together one of the remaining weekends left this year for a some eats and talk.....do the box in a parking lot and go for a ride. A friend of mine has a great pasta place in Thurmont, MD.....and lots of wonderful roads in the mountains nearby. He owns a Ducati 888 and likes the Vision. Mike |
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Visionary
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Brighton, TN | I wanna go, I wanna go, Food, the box, chatter, etc. C'mon I wanna go. But dangit I'm too far away. You boys enjoy. |
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Virginia Beach, Virginia | Anyone want to come down to the Oceanfront? This is the perfect time of year to visit Virginia Beach! I am sure we could get something set up! |
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dinwiddie, va | you are supposed to ride the bike, not let the bike ride you..... |
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Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | nightvision - 2010-10-01 1:11 PM
you are supposed to ride the bike, not let the bike ride you.....
...well said... |
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | varyder - 2010-10-01 9:58 AM
nightvision - 2010-10-01 1:11 PM
you are supposed to ride the bike, not let the bike ride you.....
...well said...
Ditto! |
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Cruiser
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| nightvision - 2010-10-01 1:11 PM you are supposed to ride the bike, not let the bike ride you..... Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........sorry.........what post does this relate to or who or .....
Edited by team222 2010-10-01 7:40 PM
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San Antonio, TX | team222,
Yes, this is one of those times when the posts and the topic have diverged by a few arc-seconds. It happens here........a lot. One could blame it on (as I do) the suspicion that most Vision owners have serious attention deficiencies. If not, why do they purchase such a complex electro-mechanical means of transportation that is simple to operate?
Nutz! I Just took this thread even further off topic! I will finish by saying that......I have to go....I will finish this later.
Ride |
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New Bohemia, VA | radioteacher - 2010-10-01 11:02 PM
team222,
Yes, this is one of those times when the posts and the topic have diverged by a few arc-seconds. It happens here........a lot. One could blame it on (as I do) the suspicion that most Vision owners have serious attention deficiencies. If not, why do they purchase such a complex electro-mechanical means of transportation that is simple to operate?
Nutz! I Just took this thread even further off topic! I will finish by saying that......I have to go....I will finish this later.
Ride
"serious attention deficiency", that's just SAD. The next time the wife ask what is wrong with me, I won't say, AAD (Adult Attention Disorder) but I'm SAD.
...with that said, let's just get to riding our EMO's (electro-mechanical operations) |
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| Reminder = Problem 1: Riding two up I am having issues with slow speed turn in.....the Vision always seems to want to go wide on any sharp turn at less than 15 mph. Same from stops and taking a right or left turn. Update 1. Tried rear brake in above situation two up for the first time.......worked great. Little more difficult turning right to get used to... but thanks for this suggestion. 2. Tried half butttt off seat in above situation but this did not work out that well in most cases as I was not able to get my biggie butt half off at slow speed that easy.....just did not feel right for me though it has worked well for others 3. So far so good.......when I get a chance I will do start the box practice and update everyone on this. Not related to issue re-stated above. Got used stock windscreen from member here and plan to cut it down 1.25"-1.5" since on low setting now with stock screen I am looking right through the top windscreen and the line this forms on backroads and in twisites....and yes I find this annoying for me. Personal to me I know due to my height, but a bit lower will allow me see better. Will report back on this when/if I get it done before winter here Thx Mike
Edited by team222 2010-10-04 11:07 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | The Vision offers great windprotection up front and I think if you go with the shorter windshield you'll like it. The problem I have is when the wife unit rides she doesn't like the wind hard in her faces. So it is the tall windshield up when she rides. Me, I could to go Blade and think I'll be satisfied as I don't like looking through the shield either. Tall windshield down has me looking at the edge, hate it, the stock windshield suffices as I can see over it, but the shorty would be perfect I think for both visual and protection. The blade would be just for looks, but I believe it could be raised enough in a pinch to push wind and rain over the head on a stormy night.
Edited by varyder 2010-10-05 4:56 AM
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San Antonio, Texas | Yeah, my wife always asks me to roll up the window when we're riding! |
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New Bohemia, VA | T222 - I'm starting to work more on this for my own good. I'm very comfortable in the close quarters, but I couldn't do the cones at the moment, and I may be able to do the box, as I have, but it don't look pretty like most. |
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Iron Butt
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North Orange County CA | Once again I'm going to suggest looking at the Laminar lip. See the photos and review at the link below.
http://www.Vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3973&pos...
My wife appreciates the reduction in buffeting, and I don't have to look through the windshield to get her in the comfort zone.
Is it perfect? Not really; I would love to try it on the 2" over shield and see how that effects the envelope. The lower angle of the vision shield in the fully down position is best for aerodynamics and gas milage. The lip increases the dead air zone.
But being not wanting to replace a perfectly good windshield is what lead me to the product in the first place. So for now I am very happy.
Edited by Tarpits99 2010-10-05 9:27 AM
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| New topic....not related to turn in issue of this thread. Got used stock windscreen from member here and plan to cut it down 1.25"-1.5" since on low setting now with stock screen I am looking right through the top windscreen and the line this forms on backroads and in twisites....and yes, I find this annoying for me. My wife does not have an issue with the stock screen on the lowest height setting on the back roads and in the twisties........speeds less than say up to 50-60 mph. We have tested lowering the stock screen 1.25" or so will on interstates or areas where higher speeds are the norm and this is ok for her.....so the hope is cutting the stock one down to equate to this will work. Her height of 5' 10" enters into how much that I can cut off the screen. Just for converstation for those that only ride solo.... how much of a lower screen can one put on and still have it not buffet the rider at higher to warp speeds.....say for someone 5' 11" to 6"? Anyone know? Mike |
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| Tarpits99 - 2010-10-05 10:23 AM Once again I'm going to suggest looking at the Laminar lip. See the photos and review at the link below. http://www.Vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3973&... My wife appreciates the reduction in buffeting, and I don't have to look through the windshield to get her in the comfort zone. Is it perfect? Not really; I would love to try it on the 2" over shield and see how that effects the envelope. The lower angle of the vision shield in the fully down position is best for aerodynamics and gas milage. The lip increases the dead air zone. But being not wanting to replace a perfectly good windshield is what lead me to the product in the first place. So for now I am very happy. Great post .....thx. My height is 5"10"....7" shorter than you.........so my q is how much would you think I have to cut off the stock screen to have the Laminar Lip be 1.25" below the stock screen on the low setting? |
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Iron Butt
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North Orange County CA | I have always operated on the theory that the edge of a windshield should be no higher than parallel to my upper lip. This keeps it out of my line of sight no matter what the road is doing.
The addition of the laminar lip makes the choice of height choice more important because you really cannot see through the top of the shield after it is installed.
Make it an inch shorter than your "ideal" height to compensate for the extension of the lip would be my suggestion. You can always raise the shield but you cant add material after you cut , be judicious.
This website describes more interesting method of choosing height.
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Fairing.html
Good luck. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 44
Middleburg, Fl. | pollolittle said to let the bike lay into the turn a little more and to keep yourself a little more upright than the bike. That is what I do, in addition to the feathered clutch/light throttle and light rear brake combination. I am currently riding Goldwing but will soon be on a Vision. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 119
| jboyette - 2010-10-19 9:37 PM pollolittle said to let the bike lay into the turn a little more and to keep yourself a little more upright than the bike. That is what I do, in addition to the feathered clutch/light throttle and light rear brake combination. I am currently riding Goldwing but will soon be on a Vision. Thanks to you and everyone for their advise. I will try what you said next time we go for a ride. Update of sorts of what has been tried ...and results. 1. Using light rear brake in tight turns off say a red light or stop sign to avoid running wide does work realllly good. I have no issues with running wide on left turns and right turns do need more practice. 2. Basics.....I rechecked my rear shock and tire pressures again and found both somewhat low from when I set them to specs last time. As an experiment before setting them to spec I let the air of of the rear shock to 25lb or so and then put in 65lb per specs and the differece in the rear height was an inch. This made a massive difference in being able in improving slow speed turn in just like some suggested in this thread. I dont know why my tire and rear shock pressures are getting lower over time, but will be checking each before every ride from now on. 3. I tried the half cheek off the seat in slow turns ins and this did not work for me. It felt uncomfortable for me personally....though has worked for many on this forum. 4. Feathering the clutch in tight turn ins is next thing to try. This is no issue on all the smaller bikes I have rode over the decades but I still have to admit the size and weight of the Vision in slow going are still intimidating me. I dont think this is Vision based....I think it is that the Vision is my first bike this size and weight. Perspective is there are no issues riding the Vision for me or adapting to it other than this slow speed turn in matter. 5. Riding in the box slow speed.....to improve my low speed riding. Another thing I intend to try. 6. I have a full list of all the suggestions in this thread and have or will be trying each one so if your suggestion. I want to thank each of you for taking the time to reply and these suggestions. Mike |
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