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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | Hello,
When I had my Andrews 26g cam installed in my previous HD, it was rated at a 1800 to 5200 rpm power range and my "butt dyno" felt it start pulling at around 2000 rpm's with very little twisting of the throttle, maybe 25 to 30%.
On my stage one Vision my "butt dyno" doesn't feel the bike really start "pulling" until well over 2500 rpms and that is at 50% throttle or more.
My question is what is the rated rpm power range for Lloydz VM-1 cams and for those of you that have them installed, at what rpm do you feel them start to "pull".
thanks in advance
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Hope this helps. http://vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6838&posts=12 |
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | SongFan - 2010-08-21 10:15 PM
Hope this helps.? http://vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6838&posts=12
Thank you SongFan (Michael). I had read your thread with great interest.
I like a bike that is "quick" as I accelerate thru the gears but I'm not looking to make my Vision into a high-speed crotch rocket. Torque in the top end doesn't interest me. I basically live between 2000 and 4500 rpm when I ride and that is where I want to feel the "pull" come on. Right now I don't feel it "kick in" until I'm above 2500rpm's. I desire to increase my low and mid torque range starting at 1800 to 2000 rpm and that is the cam I'm looking for.
So as I can compare it to my previously 26g cam equipped Street Glide, what is the rated rpm power range of the VM1 cams? I have read the description of the VM1 cams on Lloydz web site, but there is no mention as to whether the "incredible power increase" is in the low, mid, or high rpm range.
regards,
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | VM1's have a very linear curve in the 106. As shown in this chart. The cams do not so much "come on" as much as they "stay on"
(devil_dyno_750x546.jpg)
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | Thank you Kevin, I always appreciate your comments made on this forum.
I guess I've just been spoiled in experiencing that low-end (below 2500rpm) torque "pull" I get from my modified Street Glide and my 1800 Gold Wing as I gently roll on the throttle while accelerating thru the gears.
As you indicate by the dyno sheet and state that it is a linear power increase, to me that means the VM1 cams increase power in the Vision's existing power range (24-2500 rpm and up), but does not lower (below 2500 rpm) the range.
thanks again,
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Unless they are highly modifified neither of the bikes you mention made near the torque that a Vision makes down low. Peak torque at the tire on a Wing is just above 100 @ 4400RPM. That is 1000RPM above the Vics crossing 100. Peak tourque on a SE 110 is 96 at 3200, and it only stays there for a few RPM before dropping off. I think you are being confused by the WAY the Vision makes power into believing that your past bikes had more power. That is one of my biggest complaints with the Vision. The bike does about everything so well; you miss out on the sensations of speed, and power
Edited by kevinx 2010-08-22 12:51 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | kevinx - 2010-08-22 10:50 AM
Unless they are highly modifified neither of the bikes you mention made near the torque that a Vision makes down low. Peak torque at the tire on a Wing is just above 100 @ 4400RPM. That is 1000RPM above the Vics crossing 100. Peak tourque on a SE 110 is 96 at 3200, and it only stays there for a few RPM before dropping off. I think you are being confused by the WAY the Vision makes power into believing that your past bikes had more power. That is one of my biggest complaints with the Vision. The bike does about everything so well; you miss out on the sensations of speed, and power
Hello Kevin,
Two questions.
1. Then is it a function of the Vision's slow build up in HP as the rpm's build? When Fred Eno (Dr Dyno) tuned my modified Street Glide, both my HP and TQ were above 80 prior to reaching 2500 rpm on my dyno sheet and stayed above there until about 4800-5000 rpm. (Max HP and TQ were 84/89 on my build). On your Vision dyno sheet 80 HP isn't reached until around 4500 rpm.
2. A Andrews V-438 cam is recommended for stock/tuned Freedom engines with a power rpm range rating of 2000-6000 rpm, the lower end of which I desire. To me this sounds close to the 26g rpm range rating of 1800-5200 rpm, especially since I'm comparing it in a larger 106ci engine to my former Street Glide's 95ci. Am I missing something and/or what has been your experience.
thank you,
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | Hello,
I guess I'm not expressing myself as well as I could for the answer I'm looking for. Before I invest more $$$, I just wanted the input from fellow riders that have aftermarket cams in their Visions.
In thread replies by both Kevin and others that I have read this afternoon, the power of aftermarket cams is described as "nice kick in the pants", or "see real performance gains", or "wake up your bike", etc..
On my Vision with stock cam, the above decriptions for me starts at between 25-2600 rpm and continues to about 4500 rpm.
Where do you fellow riders feel it starts on your aftermarket cam Vision?
thanks in advance, |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | RCS, There is no new kick in the pants that starts at a radically lower RPM with the cams. You say your other bike made over 80 lbs of torque at 2500 rpm and you miss that? The stock Vision makes 97 lbs at 2500 rpm and holds it until 4500. Man314's intake plate only mod is pulling 106 lbs prior to 3000 and staying there until 4,500 before it start to drop off. Like Kevin said, the Vision is so good at it, it doesn't feel like it's making that much power. If you look at Man314's graphs of a stock Vision compared to his intake plate mod you will see that stock hits 100 ft/lbs at 2500, the intake plate mod hits 100 at about 2200 rpm, not a big deal. The difference with the cams is all about 4500 RPM and above. Look at Man314's horsepower graphs. The stock Vision graph and the intake plate mod graph both die off just around 4,500 rpm. They are out of air. The cammed Visions get more air. The horsepower graph with the cams keeps climbing at the same rate past 5,000 rpm, all the way to the limiter. When you bypass the stock 5,400 rpm limiter and bump it up to 6,400 the horsepower keeps climbing at the same rate all the way to that new limiter. Stock vs Intake plate (no other mods): http://vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6845&posts=2 Cams, Stage1/Level 1, VFC III, Intake Plate, no rev-limiter bypass: http://vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6838&posts=15&start=1 The intake plate costs $85 and is by far the single greatest bang for the buck in power increase. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Does the intake plate modification void the warranty on the Visions? I have 4 1/2 years left on my warranty and don't want to void that. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | RCS - 2010-08-22 2:39 PM
kevinx - 2010-08-22 10:50 AM
Unless they are highly modifified neither of the bikes you mention made near the torque that a Vision makes down low. Peak torque at the tire on a Wing is just above 100 @ 4400RPM. That is 1000RPM above the Vics crossing 100. Peak tourque on a SE 110 is 96 at 3200, and it only stays there for a few RPM before dropping off. I think you are being confused by the WAY the Vision makes power into believing that your past bikes had more power. That is one of my biggest complaints with the Vision. The bike does about everything so well; you miss out on the sensations of speed, and power
Hello Kevin,
Two questions.
1. Then is it a function of the Vision's slow build up in HP as the rpm's build? When Fred Eno (Dr Dyno) tuned my modified Street Glide, both my HP and TQ were above 80 prior to reaching 2500 rpm on my dyno sheet and stayed above there until about 4800-5000 rpm. (Max HP and TQ were 84/89 on my build). On your Vision dyno sheet 80 HP isn't reached until around 4500 rpm.
Gonna need to see the sheet you describe because I'd be willing to bet the HD below 80HP right around 3500 based on the the sheets I have found for those cams. With torque falling off at least as quickly. Make no mistake a stock Vision would stomp a mud hole out of any HD making 84/89. You are confusing the sensation of gearing for real power. Yes you may need to be in a lower gear in the vision, but that is because EVERY gear is higher then the HD. This gearing change will show on a dyno as a short tall power spike. If I run a Vision in 3rd on a dyno it will show about the same neumerical value for HP as 5th, but it will be at lower RPM, and torque will spike to around 115 on a STOCK bike.
2. A Andrews V-438 cam is recommended for stock/tuned Freedom engines with a power rpm range rating of 2000-6000 rpm, the lower end of which I desire. To me this sounds close to the 26g rpm range rating of 1800-5200 rpm, especially since I'm comparing it in a larger 106ci engine to my former Street Glide's 95ci. Am I missing something and/or what has been your experience.
thank you,
Having built a bunch of motors with 438's I can assure you that theyt come in later then the VM-1. In a typical 11-1 100" motor the torque line will clear 90FtLb between 22-2500 with VM1 depending on the pipe. In the same motor with 438's 90FtLb does not come until after 3000
Edited by kevinx 2010-08-22 7:58 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | SongFan,
Thank you for your comments and observations of your Vision and Man314's at the various rpm's...that's the kind of information I was looking for to help in my decision.
thank you again, |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Damn kevin, they sure are making it hard on you to explain dyno graphs and how much better a 4 valve head fills the cylinder better at low rpm. A really good ported 2 valve head may flow as much as a 4 valve at peak flow, but can't match the same flow of a 4V head at low rpm's. The freedom engine really has a super torque curve compared to a HD of comparable displacement and making about the same peak HP. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | "You are confusing the sensation of gearing for real power. Yes you may need to be in a lower gear in the vision, but that is because EVERY gear is higher then the HD."
And now I feel foolish for not considering this....  of course that plays a major part in what my "butt dyno" was feeling as I was accelerating thru the gears.
"Having built a bunch of motors with 438's I can assure you that they come in later then the VM-1."
Thank you Kevin, that is exactly the kind of comparison info I was looking for.
regards,
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I wouldn't be nearly as educated on this stuff if it weren't for VisionTex's ability to explain it to me and show me what to look for. Every time I sit down at a meal with that guy I walk away more informed. It is really fun to watch him throw the B.S. flag at stuff that goes on here sometimes. Here's another factor to consider. The dyno run is done with the bike not moving. It is just sucking in as much air as it can. With the long, ram-air tunnel over the Vision motor, air is actually being packed in or pre-loaded into that tunnel before being injected into the motor as you go down the road. The faster you go, the more air gets packed into that tunnel and the faster you can go. More speed actually makes it go faster. A Harley (and nearly every other v-twin) has a side draft that goes asthmatic after a certain point. There is nothing being rammed in, it is at the mercy of how hard it can suck in air. That's why the Screamin Eagle showdown that was so popular to follow was going to be such a blowout. The cammed Vision with the ram-air and better aerodynamics will absolutely laugh at the Harley above 80 mph. The dyno numbers for a Harley are not far off compared to road conditions. The dyno numbers on a Vision are woefully conservative because the ram air isn't even a factor yet. Why anybody would give a flyin flip about torque and horsepower below 2000 RPM is beyond me. If that's your happy spot though, good luck finding it on a Vision. I'd rather buy a bulldozer. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | SongFan - 2010-08-22 10:18 PM
I wouldn't be nearly as educated on this stuff if it weren't for VisionTex's ability to explain it to me and show me what to look for.? Every time I sit down at a meal with that guy I walk away more informed.? It is really fun to watch him throw the B.S. flag at stuff that goes on here sometimes. Here's another factor to consider.? The dyno run is done with the bike not moving.? It is just sucking in as much air as it can.? With the long, ram-air tunnel over the Vision motor, air is actually being packed in or pre-loaded into that tunnel before being injected into the motor as you go down the road.? The faster you go, the more air gets packed into that tunnel and the faster you can go.? More speed actually makes it go faster.? A Harley (and nearly every other v-twin) has a side draft that goes asthmatic after a certain point.? There is nothing being rammed in, it is at the mercy of how hard it can suck in air.? That's why the Screamin Eagle showdown that was so popular to follow was going to be such a blowout.? The cammed Vision with the ram-air and better aerodynamics will absolutely laugh at the Harley above 80 mph.? The dyno numbers for a Harley are not far off compared to road conditions.? The dyno numbers on a Vision are woefully conservative because the ram air isn't even a factor yet. Why anybody would give a flyin flip about torque and horsepower below 2000 RPM is beyond me.? If that's your happy spot though, good luck finding it on a Vision.? I'd rather buy a bulldozer.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no ram air effect with the vision. It does however have a large plenumn that has a ready reserve of air avialable to it. Adding an intake on the top of the back bone works by helping the plenum fill better, and with a straighter path. If the Vision actually had ram air. The top plate would make it LOOSE power since it was not maintaining pressure. Beside as proven by Suzuki several years argo ram air has a VERY small window of effectivness, and that is above 120mph
The reason most HD's fall on their face at higher RPM's is because the have 2 valve heads. This means they need to make a comprimise where the power comes in. Smallish valve with lots of lift, and short duration to power up the bottom, or large valves lots of lift, and duration along with retarded cam timing to make top end power. With the configuration of the HD motor it is hard, but not impossible to make power across the whole band
Edited by kevinx 2010-08-22 9:32 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Dang it! Sooo close. Thanks for the explanation Kevin. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | wow, man, that even makes sense to me, thanks kevin! I talked to a guy yesterday that was so proud to get his Harley about a year ago, but is no longer pleased with it because of the lack of power and problems. His radio has quit working, as well as having other things fixed. But the power problem is really bugging him knowing if he wants more power he has to spend more money. He just kept eyeballing my Vision...
oh, hey kevin, a motor with 100,000 on it, would it be good to put the Lloyd cams and pipes with flash without doing anything else mechanically to a Vic motor? I still don't burn or use oil at 80,000.
Edited by varyder 2010-08-22 10:03 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2010-08-22 11:01 PM
wow, man, that even makes sense to me, thanks kevin! I talked to a guy yesterday that was so proud to get his Harley about a year ago, but is no longer pleased with it because of the lack of power and problems. His radio has quit working, as well as having other things fixed. But the power problem is really bugging him knowing if he wants more power he has to spend more money. He just kept eyeballing my Vision...
oh, hey kevin, a motor with 100,000 on it, would it be good to put the Lloyd cams and pipes with flash without doing anything else mechanically to a Vic motor? I still don't burn or use oil at 80,000.
No worries about upgrading your engine that late in life. I'll bet compression and leak down are both close to new, and with a constant 80psi the bearings are prolly like new as well |
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Visionary
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | That's really saying something Kevin: I wouldn't even think about adding 30HP to a harley with 80,000 miles on it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | "When the green flag drops, the bull shit stops!" |
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | Hello,
Just wanted to close out this thread I started by saying it looks like a performance under pulley, as discussed in the thread below, is more what I'm looking for since I've been informed that every gear in a Vision is higher then a HD. If Kevin or anyone else has any pro's or cons's they would like to share regarding this, I know I would like to hear them.
Thanks to everyone for there participation in this discussion.
http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4767&pos... |
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Tourer
Posts: 575
Spirit Lake IA "Birthplace of Victory Motorcycles" | This is EXACTLY why I like this site. Someone asks a couple of really intelligent questions, those with experience (including a few experts) answer those questions and a novice like me can start to make sense and understand this motorcycle stuff. Nice thread! |
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Tourer
Posts: 575
Spirit Lake IA "Birthplace of Victory Motorcycles" | VisionTex - 2010-08-23 3:29 PM "When the green flag drops, the bull shit stops!" Exactly! Nice meeting you at AVR. Hope your ride home was safe and enjoyable.
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