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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | There was some discussion some time back about someone looking in to design and build a fork brace for the Vision. Anyone have any idea if they made any head way? I ride my TP all the time, in a year I have 12+K on it and I have four other bikes i switch out on. I have never had any issues with tar snakes till the other day. I was riding in Bisbee, AZ up Texas Canyon and the tar snakes were all over the road. The front end felt like it was all over the place. My brother on his Xcountry had not a problem. Once i got out of the canyon it was no problem. I never want to feel my bike handle like that. I took my 02 TC over the same route today, and no issues, the bike tracked like it was on rails. So anyway has anyone heard anything about a fork brace? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | On my recent trip putting 350+ miles on an X bike every day for a week. I hit several sets of tar snakes that pulled the seat deep in my ass. With the inverted forks on the X it was not due to front end flex. It was about hitting the strips wrong. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | kevinx - 2010-08-20 7:35 AM
On my recent trip putting 350+ miles on an X bike every day for a week. I hit several sets of tar snakes that pulled the seat deep in my ass. With the inverted forks on the X it was not due to front end flex. It was about hitting the strips wrong.
I have to use the quote on you KevinX since you're bold enough to put this to rest. This mess about the Vision and tar-snakes has become ridiculous in my mind. I rode a stretch of highway out west that was nothing but tar-snake and I never slowed even though the bike did a little dance on some of them as would anyother bike. Even the physic of what folks are saying that makes a Vision different on tar snakes doesn't even jive as you have a 1,000lbs with rider and two contact patches, tell me what is different.
If a person finds something as little as a tar snake an issue, please give up riding altogether as there are far greater hazards out there that you cannot handle. Do it for your family if for nothing else. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 849
, FL United States | varyder - 2010-08-20 9:45 AM
This mess about the Vision and tar-snakes has become ridiculous in my mind. I rode a stretch of highway out west that was nothing but tar-snake and I never slowed even though the bike did a little dance on some of them as would anyother bike. Even the physic of what folks are saying that makes a Vision different on tar snakes doesn't even jive as you have a 1,000lbs with rider and two contact patches, tell me what is different.
If a person finds something as little as a tar snake an issue, please give up riding altogether as there are far greater hazards out there that you cannot handle. Do it for your family if for nothing else.
I have to agree with Chris. I have just shy of 43k miles on my Vis and have ridden many roads with "tar snakes" on them and never thought anything of them. Yes my Vis does move around a bit on them but I don't slow down or feel that I have to ride any differently. JMHO |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | <p>Well. Ok so it's in my mind? OK. I rode my TC over the same area and there was nothing, nothing. The bike did not even feel them. The Vision did it again today. After checking tire pressures, rear shock pressure and riding one up instead of two, the bike felt the same way. Another friend who has a Vision 8ball experienced excactly the same thing I did. He was really freaked. I know yall ride some miles, but so do I. I have three other bikes and none of them react this way and the TC has over 160K on it. The Harley doesn't react either cause i rode the same course last week and it did not feel like this. It freaked out my buddy so much he is thinking about trading his brand new 8Ball Vision in on a XCountry. Normal tar snakes don't bother the bike. Here in AZ we have lots and lots of em, and the bike has never reacted like this. I ride the Hell out of my bikes and treat the Vision like a big crotch rocket. I am saying that I never felt anything like this, it was like riding on marbles or something. The reason I asked about fork braces is that my Brother said he noticed my forks looked like they were flexing. (he rides a XCountry.) I am not going to get rid of my big crotch rocket, but I am not going to ride it down Tombstone Canyon anymore.</p><p>And by the way Mr. Var whatever, you can kiss my Ass. I have been riding since I was 8 and that was 51 years ago. I have ridden competitively both on and off road. I ride year round, and ride hard. If you have nothing beneficial to add to the conversation you should just keep your mouth shut. </p>
Edited by JustBob 2010-08-20 9:58 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Okay JUSTBOB. The crazy thing is I rode across Arizon, through the desert there across 160 and in and around Barstow in 110 degree heat, and there is plenty of tar snakes. The comparison that is being made from one bike that folk say they ride, and then the Vision, I have not experienced the severity of the issue. We even have plenty of tar snakes here in Virginia and very hot days as well, never have experienced what you folks that have the problem you describe. I have only ridden again for 5 years and started again on '84 GoldWing. That bike scared me in a lot of situations, and had my doubts if I really wanted to ride again. When I got the Vision it seemed my confidence level rose dramatically and have riden conditions I would never have give thought to on the Wing.
I just don't know what it is that I'm doing any different, but rightfully so, if it scares you that much it is best to get rid of it.
As far as riding hard, I hope we can ride together one day. I average around 1,000 miles in 15 to 18 hours.
Edited by varyder 2010-08-20 10:19 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | Please let a nebe to this form insert a simple opinion. Tar snakes come in all forms. Some thin, some wide, some found on smooth straight sections of road. Others can be found in turns where the speed and lean angles that I find them is somewhat unsettling. But In my opinion untill two people follow the same line at the same speed on the same streach of road it is usless to compare notes on how a given motorcycle behaves when put to the test with a given road condition. As the owner of a 2008 Vision Tour I would ask if any one has made the same discovery I have? Sit on your Vision on a smooth level surface, both feet flat on the ground. Lock the front brake. Then with the front tire straight ahead, jerk! the bars to the right or left 30 to 40 degrees. Now is it just my bike or can you feel the flex in the front end I feel. FYI This is not my first ride, I have Thirty years exp. up on 2 wheels. Just wondering if I am the only one. |
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Tourer
Posts: 390
| Maybe the Vision is giving more road feedback than your other bikes. Do your other bikes weigh as much as the vision? I live in the Houston area and there are some roads that the snakes are slipperier than others. The Vision slips on some but not others , never had the feeling that I was going down. |
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Tourer
Posts: 390
| BLK08 - 2010-08-21 9:29 PM
Please let a nebe to this form insert a simple opinion. Tar snakes come in all forms. Some thin, some wide, some found on smooth straight sections of road. Others can be found in turns where the speed and lean angles that I find them is somewhat unsettling. But In my opinion untill two people follow the same line at the same speed on the same streach of road it is usless to compare notes on how a given motorcycle behaves when put to the test with a given road condition. As the owner of a 2008 Vision Tour I would ask if any one has made the same discovery I have? Sit?on your Vision on a smooth level surface, both feet flat on the ground. Lock the front brake.?Then with the front tire straight ahead, jerk! the bars to the right or left 30 to 40 degrees. Now is it just my bike or can you feel the flex in the front end I feel. FYI?This is not?my first ride, I have?Thirty years exp. up on 2 wheels. Just wondering if I am the only one.
The bars are rubber mounted...is this the feeling you have? |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | BLK08 - 2010-08-21 10:29 PM
Please let a nebe to this form insert a simple opinion. Tar snakes come in all forms. Some thin, some wide, some found on smooth straight sections of road. Others can be found in turns where the speed and lean angles that I find them is somewhat unsettling. But In my opinion untill two people follow the same line at the same speed on the same streach of road it is usless to compare notes on how a given motorcycle behaves when put to the test with a given road condition. As the owner of a 2008 Vision Tour I would ask if any one has made the same discovery I have? Sit?on your Vision on a smooth level surface, both feet flat on the ground. Lock the front brake.?Then with the front tire straight ahead, jerk! the bars to the right or left 30 to 40 degrees. Now is it just my bike or can you feel the flex in the front end I feel. FYI?This is not?my first ride, I have?Thirty years exp. up on 2 wheels. Just wondering if I am the only one.
I don't know about the flex, but that is what saved me from getting hit in an intersection when a lady ran the redlight. I saw her coming out of the corner of my eye, I started braking hard, and when it got slow, suddenly the front wheel cocked left and the bike stop dead and dropped just as she whizzed by inches from the front. I'll take you on that one.
Or are we talking the same thing? I just saw CT's post, and yes the handle bars are rubbery on purpose so you won't feel the good vibrations....
Edited by varyder 2010-08-21 9:41 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | chesshiretuna - 2010-08-21 10:37 PM BLK08 - 2010-08-21 9:29 PM Please let a nebe to this form insert a simple opinion. Tar snakes come in all forms. Some thin, some wide, some found on smooth straight sections of road. Others can be found in turns where the speed and lean angles that I find them is somewhat unsettling. But In my opinion untill two people follow the same line at the same speed on the same streach of road it is usless to compare notes on how a given motorcycle behaves when put to the test with a given road condition. As the owner of a 2008 Vision Tour I would ask if any one has made the same discovery I have? Sit?on your Vision on a smooth level surface, both feet flat on the ground. Lock the front brake.?Then with the front tire straight ahead, jerk! the bars to the right or left 30 to 40 degrees. Now is it just my bike or can you feel the flex in the front end I feel. FYI?This is not?my first ride, I have?Thirty years exp. up on 2 wheels. Just wondering if I am the only one. The bars are rubber mounted...is this the feeling you have?Thanks for the info, I do know the bars are rubber mounted I just think for me, and maybe its just my bike but rubber mount or not, there should not be that much response lag in the front end. I did not make this discovery early on and will wait untill this winter to examine the mount on the bars with the idea of possible changing to a stiffer mount. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | BLK08 - Songfan mention not long ago his was worn excessively and he replaced his. Mine seem to be holding up good at the moment, got the originals. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | I ride in the moutains most of the time, small curvey two lane roads. The Vision feedback through the bars is a trade off, Loss of feedback in return for less vibration.
Edited by BLK08 2010-08-21 10:00 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | what neck of the woods you be blk08? Sounds like the valley maybe??? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | All roads leading to and from the BRPW. RT. 39 Through Goshen, Rt 43 Around and through New Castle, Crab Tree Falls RD. through Amherst. Just to name a few. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | varyder - 2010-08-21 11:06 PM what neck of the woods you be blk08? Sounds like the valley maybe??? Sounds like you have a lot of time to spend in the saddle, wish I were so lucky. Between work and other intrests, my time on two wheels is not as overflowing. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I think if you tighten up with new bushings and make sure they're tight you'll be good. I find the feedback on mine is excellent. If you want some good roads to ride that makes the Dragon (*yawn*) look straight, go out on roads from Alt58 and RT23, up around Pound, Norton, Jenkins |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | Now that you've gotten your rock off Mr. Var. I would like to hear from someone, other than you, who can answer my original question. Not asking for any Opinions, just asking for information. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | I met with a technician at Superbrace back in April to let them measure my 08 for a Vision fork brace. They had put out a request for local Vision to volunteer for a couple of saturdays to allow them to prototype a fork brace.
After taking the measurements the tech was not encouraging about their ability to manufacture a Superbrace style product for the Vision due to the limited clearance between the forks and the inner fairing and gas tanks.
Since then I have heard nothing; this does not necessarily mean anything, but my guess is "that's all she wrote". |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | BLK08 - 2010-08-21 11:19 PM
varyder - 2010-08-21 11:06 PM what neck of the woods you be blk08? Sounds like the valley maybe??? Sounds like you have a lot of time to spend in the saddle, wish I were so lucky. Between work and other intrests, my time on two wheels is not as overflowing.
I just make riding my primary mode of transportation. I can't afford a "toy", therefore it won't sit. I have to drive the car now and again just to keep it running. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | I'm not saying that it does not happen, but perhaps because of the Visions very large envelope. People are hitting these curves at a higher rate of speed, and the old mass times momentum aspect of physics kick in |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Justbob, As Tarpits99 stated he had his bike at SuperBrace for a measurement, BUT I wouldn't take their comments as anything more than they are already done with design and production for this riding season. They design and make the braces during the winter months. Thy kind of gave me the same line when I first inquired as to whether they would be making one for the Vision, then they were looking in the fall for someone to bring a Vision in for measurements. Check the SuperBrace website periodically after the first of the year or email them to make an inquiry.
As to the tar snake issue? Well I think a lot has to do with where one is riding as to how badly the Vision reacts. In PA where I'm at the tar snakes are raised and they swell badly with even minimal sun exposure. Since they use a rubber ground compound mixed into the crack fill you end up with rubber on rubber and the flex is bad. I noticed the same type of compound being used in an area I rode in GA last summer. Of course riding across 11 states this summer I noticed many different tar snake practices. Some states fill and sand/dust. Others fill and wipe off the excess, and still others don't fill the crack to the surface. I think material and fill practices contribute.
I also believe the differences among individual bikes plays a roll in the handling. Mine was fine the 1st year but year 2 and 3 made my butt pucker. There was some minor twisting due to the weight of the bike, but the reaction from certain tar snakes could be scary.
Now I know we have the most macho members here who ride over metal spikes without regard for any possibility of puncture, and of course riding 60-70k seems a huge accomplishment for which they can stroke their own ego, but for us mere mortals who have only managed to accumulate a million miles on 5 continents, the tar snakes might just force us to sell our bikes, for our own good of course, pfffft!!!
So email SuperBrace JustBob and make sure you follow up regardless of the initial reply. And I'm glad nothing has changed here, lol.... |
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | My original set of Dunlop E3's reacted a little to snakes. I switched to a Bridgestone front and E3 rear and while riding out to AVR and back had the occasion to ride many snaked up roads two up and I have got to tell you the bike did not even know the snakes were there. A trick BMW riders use whenever the front wheel comes of is after installing the front axle and before it gets tightened down they bounce the suspension to prevent the forks from being offset in any degree alowing them to react without sticking. I dont know if this would help with the vision but similar instructions are even written into some BMW service manuals. Also a good way to see if something has been tweeked out of kilter. Bounce with bolts loose and bolts tightened, any difference and there could be a problem. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | wroman - you bring up an excellent point and will incorporate that into future tire changes.
Edited by varyder 2010-08-26 5:17 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 374
Tucson, AZ | I think the most determining factor is the material being used to seal the cracks. Some states I had ridden through seem to be better/or worse than others. Here in Az. the local jurisdictions use different materials. Application is also key. I do know that if they use the Pima County spec. material and dont get carried away with the application I have zero problems. I found this to be true with all of the various bikes Ive owned over the years. So I try my best to avoid the lateral ones, try to cross the perpindicular ones as close to 90 degress as possible, and just plain pay attention on roads that have a bunch of them.......just my 1.8 cents....
mike |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | mkultra - I think the most determining factor is the material being used to seal the cracks. Some states I had ridden through seem to be better/or worse than others. Here in Az. the local jurisdictions use different materials. Application is also key. I do know that if they use the Pima County spec. material and dont get carried away with the application I have zero problems. I found this to be true with all of the various bikes Ive owned over the years. So I try my best to avoid the lateral ones, try to cross the perpindicular ones as close to 90 degress as possible, and just plain pay attention on roads that have a bunch of them.......just my 1.8 cents....
mike
I saw two different kinds of tar snakes in Arizona, one like you describe and then those imfamous ones that get all squeeshy when you ride over them. Here in Virginia it seems that they use the same compound on some roads to patch the road, so you end up with a big square tar snake, those are tricky, especially when wet. On the WV Turnpike, those scandrals put the compound perpendicular to the travel path along the joints. When I came through while it was raining the tail kept slipping with the joints in the hard curves and I didn't know why and until I got to a dry spot and saw what they had down.
I think the last thing the highway department takes into consideration is motorcycle riders. Richmond has plenty of bridges on curves on the interstate that have steel joints. These are even worse than tar snakes, hot or wet, when they are wet.
Ride Safe and be careful
Edited by varyder 2010-08-26 7:33 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | varyder - 2010-08-21 11:26 PM
If you want some good roads to ride that makes the Dragon (*yawn*) look straight, go out on roads from Alt58 and RT23, up around Pound, Norton, Jenkins
Just looked at maps of the area. VA620 / WV930 from Wise to Whitesburg looks like a real humdinger. I wonder if those roads are paved?
View Humdinger in a larger map
Edited by trailbarge 2010-08-26 11:46 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | you have to be careful on that TB. I thought I knew my way around up there as I've been to the area a few times over my life because that's where my mom is from. I went down one road I thought was right and I think I ended up on someone's farm, wrong road, and the wrong place to be looking out of place. But the road I did finally grabbed were tight. I'd have to run them a few times just be confident for a good run.
I looked at that road, that should be paved and fairly decent. Like the dragon there are not any guard rails. If you ride them, let someone know ahead of time when you expect to be back. If you end up off the road you might be mistaken as deer and end up as supper with gravy.
Edited by varyder 2010-08-26 1:13 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I did a search to see if anything has developed on this front as well. Still notthing really to find for the Vision and it looks like there is probably a reason for this lack of products. I'm having a hard time understanding how something like this is even applicable to the Vision. ONE suggestion: Could you live without a front fender? If so, then you can probably get a generic one to fit. You may also be able to get one machined that is "U" shaped to rise above the fender, but it might cause it to get weak. Otherwise it will be clamped so close to the triple that it would pretty much negate the advantage of using one. The bar would have to join the inverted shocks in order for this to work and the inverted shock length ends right at the top of the fender (not counting the fork seals). I've seen em used on the Wings and I have yet to hear of them stabilizing the bike in adverse conditions (tar snakes, air wash, etc). One Winger I talked to said that he could get his bike down closer in tight turns with the fork braces installed, which I am 100% certain was BS due to the fact that you can watch a good rider on a Wing scrape metal at the Dragon in less than favorable conditions. As near as I can tell, these braces are mostly effective on sport bikes. I seem to recall that Harley had some issues with fork flex that this would help with as well. Although I can imagine that 99% of the people putting them on Harleys see them as another peice of chrome or they are following up on advice from a dealer that stocks them... I would think a steering dampener would be more effective in this scenerio though. I dunno but it seems like an expensive experiment.
Edited by bigwill5150 2010-08-26 1:15 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | Thanks yall. This is not something that would make me get rid of my bike. I didn't get rid of my chopper with the 12" over springer and that was much more squirrely. I realize there are those who react a certain way when their choice bikes is questioned, but this wasn't the case. I have ridden bikes with fork braces and they do make a difference even if they don't get squirrely over some tar snakes. On some bikes the addition of a brace makes the bike that you thought handled well handle even better. I won't lose sleep over this. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| wroman, yep what you explained is an old motorcross bike trick. However what you want to do is bounce the forks a couple times and then compress them while tightening the pinch bolts down on the axle (2 people required). Serves 2 purposes; prevents pinching the axle causing the wheel to be out of alignment, some call it proper seating and it allows or rather compensates for the natural flex on the fork tubes while compressed. Tightening with the forks compressed prevents the sliders from binding when you take a big hit such as landng off a jump.
Some folks mistakenly hear the word fork flex and think twisting. Fork flex is the bowing either in but generally out that occurs as the fork is compressed. The bowing occurs at the weakest junction where the tube and slider move against each other as separate parts. This is the biggest contributing action to worn out bushings & seals, which in turn creat fork leaks. A fork brace prevents the forks from being able to bow out at this junction. So what you end up with is the triple clamp supporting the top, fork brace the middle and axle the bottom. The affect is a slightly stiffer compression and rebound is sharper/faster. The outcome of that is the tire stays in contact with the road slightly better on smaller road junk such as tar snakes, cracks, etc... It can make the bike feel rather busy on consecutive small road stuff and/or can make the bike feel more plank like.
Loads of things to consider when tuning suspension and street bikes are definitely a tougher tune. I suspect something in the front of my bike had broken loose, or was out of alignment. Might have been a cartridge, bearing or any number of other things. Heck could have just been some crud in one of the carts. I rode two different Visions during the demo trucks stay here and neither had issues on tar snakes other than the normal one would expect... either way I had taken one too many trips to the dealer with my Vision.
I don't for a minute believe a fork brace would be the end all or be all for perfect handling, but I believe it would allow for better stability on an aggressive bike like the Vision.
My understanding of the fork brace dilema for the Vision and from looking myself, was the closeness of the forks to the gas tanks. You'd need to really bottom the suspension to be near the tanks but I'm sure the folks at SB just want to make a product for the Vision that won't become a issue even in an extreme nose dive. I suspect they'll work it out this winter.
I don't want ANYONE to think I disliked the Vision, nothing could be further from the truth. I enjoyed almost every mile ridden on her, but the little piddly repeat problems just finally got to be too much coupled with the tar snake issue it was having. At the end of the day a good bike gets you hom an equal number of times it has been taken out.... the VV never left me stranded. |
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Fork brace