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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Does anybody know what the speaker impedance is for an '09 Vision? Also, what is the power output of the stock head in unit? Thinking about replacing the stock speakers with a set of Focal 5 1/4" co-axial... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 156
dinwiddie, va | IMO. I wouldn't change the speakers. Not without having more power pushing them, Not positive but I believe they are 4 ohm. There are no specs that I have ever seen for the power output. You will make stock speakers sound 10 times better by adding an amplifier. The sound all comes from the power pushing them. The aftermarket speakers might sound a hair better. But not enough to justify. Don't ask me how I know. But I have spent alot of time with sound systems. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | The service manual for my '08 says the speakers are 2.8 ohm. The '09's are probably the same.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| sound sucks on my 08 whats the answer? |
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Tourer
Posts: 401
| nightvision - 2010-06-09 9:01 AM
IMO. I wouldn't change the speakers. Not without having more power pushing them, Not positive but I believe they are 4 ohm. There are no specs that I have ever seen for the power output. You will make stock speakers sound 10 times better by adding an amplifier. The sound all comes from the power pushing them. The aftermarket speakers might sound a hair better. But not enough to justify. Don't ask me how I know. But I have spent alot of time with sound systems.
More power? Sure, go ahead and dump more power into your stock speakers, and after you melt the speaker coils, you will have a good reason to get a new set of speakers.
"Stock" Automotive/motorcycle/marine speakers are matched to the amp that is powering them, anything more, and they will fry.
Any high end stereo magazine or advise web site will tell you that the best, most improved, efficient, first, investment in "any" quality stereo system is the speakers. Period...
Why? Almost all decent sound systems have the ability to produce sounds outside the range of human hearing at a distortion level that can't be heard as well. Speakers, on the other hand, are the limiting factor. Speaker size, range, drivers, efficiency, power, and crossover quality can make or break a speaker. Typically stock speakers fail in the efficiency and range area.
So what does this all mean? Almost all mobile speakers are 4 ohm, and almost all equipment is also 4 ohm. So you should be good there.
So here is what to look for in a set of new speakers:
Efficiency - is the power range and the larger the power range the better, but be careful here, high power speakers aren't efficient and require lots of power. Efficient speakers can be powered with very low power and extend up to high power. For example: a speaker that can operate from .25 watts - 100 watts is a very efficient speaker.
Range - the human ear can hear sounds in the 20hz-20khz range, and a good speaker will have the ability to do that. Sadly, finding a small waterproof speaker that will work in the Vision will be unlikely. Small speakers (6" and less) just can't produce deep bass in the low end of the range, and if you can find something the 40hz-60hz, then that is pretty good. Keep in mind, subwoofers (8" or larger) are used to fill in the low end thump.
Get a set of speakers that can do this and you will hear a big difference, but don't expect miracles. Traffic, wind, and helmet noise will always compete with the quality of the sound.
Edited by sgiacci 2010-06-12 6:24 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | I switch my stock for the J&M speaker kit. I can now listen to my music at 75mph. Well worth the upgrade! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | The J&M replacements are 2 Ohm voice coils (thats what the label said on the back) They read in the high 2's with my multimeter. My OEM's read 3 Ohms. I think someone around here said their meter showed closer to 4 Ohms on their OEM's. I dunno but I would stick with 2 ohms unless your plannng on scabbing in an amp. One other consideration is to find what the volume enclosure is in cubic feet. Some manufacturers make them to be "free air" without enclosures, some are designed to do both and some are designed as purely enclosed. I dont think the dinky Vision system pushes enough wattage to tear up a set of free airs but they might have some problems with distorting when turned up. Another thing you might check when looking at perspective replacements is woofer throw. IF they are a longer throw woofer, they might end up striking the speaker grills and distorting. The stock Vision speakers are pretty flush and didn't have much of a throw which is partly the reason they are crap (the other reason is that they are paper cone junk thats been sprayed with some kind of conformal coating). I posted a video on youtube showing the before/after J&M upgrade. The OEM's start to distort at about 16. The J&M's are a little louder and won't distort until I hit about 26 on the volume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1rDRKEqCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdNwTU4Cxzk |
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Tourer
Posts: 401
| bigwill5150 - 2010-06-12 8:11 PM
The J&M replacements are 2 Ohm voice coils (thats what the label said on the back) They read in the high 2's with my multimeter. My OEM's read 3 Ohms. I think someone around here said their meter showed closer to 4 Ohms on their OEM's. I dunno but I would stick with 2 ohms unless your plannng on scabbing in an amp. One other consideration is to find what the volume enclosure is in cubic feet. Some manufacturers make them to be "free air" without enclosures, some are designed to do both and some are designed as purely enclosed. I dont think the dinky Vision system pushes enough wattage to tear up a set of free airs but they might have some problems with distorting when turned up. Another thing you might check when looking at perspective replacements is woofer throw. IF they are a longer throw woofer, they might end up striking the speaker grills and distorting. The stock Vision speakers are pretty flush and didn't have much of a throw which is partly the reason they are crap (the other reason is that they are paper cone junk thats been sprayed with some kind of conformal coating). I posted a video on youtube showing the before/after J&M upgrade. The OEM's start to distort at about 16. The J&M's are a little louder and won't distort until I hit about 26 on the volume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1rDRKEqCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdNwTU4Cxzk
Really good stuff here, but be careful. Running a set of 2 ohm speakers with a 4 ohm amp runs the risk of blowing the amp, and yes, I have learned by making this mistake. The lower resistance is kind of like shorting out the amp. |
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| I'm pretty sure that somewhere I read the speakers are 2 ohm speakers that shoud measure about 2.8 ohm,just can't remember where I read this ,I'll check my serverice manual tomorrow, Hope this can help someone. |
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Tourer
Posts: 401
| Folks, almost all speakers fall into 3 ratings 2, 4, or 8 ohm, that's it. 2 and 4 ohm for mobile applications and 8 ohm for the home. I can't find anything in the service manual telling the rating of the amp or speakers. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 156
dinwiddie, va | sgiacci - 2010-06-12 7:22 PM
nightvision - 2010-06-09 9:01 AM
IMO. I wouldn't change the speakers. Not without having more power pushing them, Not positive but I believe they are 4 ohm. There are no specs that I have ever seen for the power output. You will make stock speakers sound 10 times better by adding an amplifier. The sound all comes from the power pushing them. The aftermarket speakers might sound a hair better. But not enough to justify. Don't ask me how I know. But I have spent alot of time with sound systems.
More power? Sure, go ahead and dump more power into your stock speakers, and after you melt the speaker coils, you will have a good reason to get a new set of speakers.
"Stock" Automotive/motorcycle/marine speakers are matched to the amp that is powering them, anything more, and they will fry.
Any high end stereo magazine or advise web site will tell you that the best, most improved, efficient, first, investment in "any" quality stereo system is the speakers. Period...
Why? Almost all decent sound systems have the ability to produce sounds outside the range of human hearing at a distortion level that can't be heard as well. Speakers, on the other hand, are the limiting factor. Speaker size, range, drivers, efficiency, power, and crossover quality can make or break a speaker. Typically stock speakers fail in the efficiency and range area.
So what does this all mean? Almost all mobile speakers are 4 ohm, and almost all equipment is also 4 ohm. So you should be good there.
So here is what to look for in a set of new speakers:
Efficiency - is the power range and the larger the power range the better, but be careful here, high power speakers aren't efficient and require lots of power. Efficient speakers can be powered with very low power and extend up to high power. For example: a speaker that can operate from .25 watts - 100 watts is a very efficient speaker.
Range - the human ear can hear sounds in the 20hz-20khz range, and a good speaker will have the ability to do that. Sadly, finding a small waterproof speaker that will work in the Vision will be unlikely. Small speakers (6" and less) just can't produce deep bass in the low end of the range, and if you can find something the 40hz-60hz, then that is pretty good. Keep in mind, subwoofers (8" or larger) are used to fill in the low end thump.
Get a set of speakers that can do this and you will hear a big difference, but don't expect miracles. Traffic, wind, and helmet noise will always compete with the quality of the sound.
Well sqiacci? I expected that everyone would know that you wouldnt put an amplifier that pushes more power then their speakers could handle..... You can easily improve the sound coming out of stock style speakers with an amplifier. Nobody said it was the way to get the best quality but it's definitely better. By the way, when you put your new speakers that handle 75-100 watts, it's gonna sound pretty crappy with 25 watts (guesstimate) running the speaker. In short, if the power handling of the stock speaker is already low, which most stock radios don't put out enough power. why wouldn't you bump up the power with an amp. Instead of being in the same boat, with putting bigger speakers (able to handle more power)with the same amount of power. Seems like a no brainer to me..... |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | Seeing I got so much...blah, blah, blah answers...I Contacted Radio Sound the radio manufacturer, they told me their radio is rated at 4 Ohm IMPEDANCE...Which by the way is NOT measureable with a multimeter as it is frequency dependant and you must have a signal generator and some other speciailzed test equipment...What you all are actually measuring with your multi meter is the RESISTANCE of the Vocie coil, NOT the speakers IMPEDANCE....The guy I spoke with at the Radio Sound, said that the radio put out 20 W per channel... I am planning on putting a set of Focal 5 1/4" speakers in place of the stock speakers, but I expect to have to wire up an amp to get a good use of the Focals...20 W just won't truly push these speakers properly....But I have to save up the bucks befor ei can do any of this... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 156
dinwiddie, va | Good info. So I was pretty close with 25 watts. Yeah, I would definitely plan on an amp. They will probably sound cleaner and a little louder. But more power will really make them sound good and even clearer. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Does the radio have any preamp-out you could hook an external amp up to? I'm unclear as to how some of you expect to add an external amp to the system. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 184
Allen Park, MI | I replaced all four stock speakers with Alpine SPS 500's There are a ton of them on ebay and if you have a little patience you can get them for pretty cheap. They sound great and didn't cost me an arm and a leg. I picked up all 4 for what J&M wants for 2....figured if I ever blew them up I didn't have a ton into them....but I doubt that will happen....at 70-80 on 15 I can here them just right. My co-pilot says she always hears the tunes before the bike when I'm almost home. Just my 2 cents. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 156
dinwiddie, va | no pre amp out puts. Most of these smaller amps just us the speaker wires from the radio. Intead of them running to the speakers, they will be rerouted to the amp. then the speaker |
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Tourer
Posts: 446
East TN | nightvision - 2010-06-17 9:53 AM no pre amp out puts. Most of these smaller amps just us the speaker wires from the radio. Intead of them running to the speakers, they will be rerouted to the amp. then the speaker
EXACTLY..>Radio has NO pre amp outputs!
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | The head unit has no pre-outs. An external amp will need to be equipped with speaker level inputs. Many car, marine, and motorcycle amps have this feature.
For a quick answer on how to improve the Vision sound system: Any improvement is a good improvement. Upgrading spkrs, amp, baffles, whatever will help. Upgrading one piece is ok. Upgrading 2 pieces is better. Upgrading all is the best route. It depends on how important sound quality is to you. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Just for reference, I contacted RadioSound for specs on the radio and speakers. Some of this info has already been stated in previous posts.
Vision Radio: 23 Watts per channel peak
Stock Victory Speakers: 4 ohm, 55 watt speakers with SPL sensitivity of 91dB
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Tourer
Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM | I read on here somewhere on here or the vmc site that the speaker impedance is 2 ohms. I believe the head unit is 2 channel running one chan. front & one rear and the ouput impedance per channel is 4 ohms. That would kinda confirm that each speaker is 2 ohms with the front two and rear 2 speaker conn. in series (4 ohms) correct? There is a fader control but no balance control I think....need to check. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 294
rhode island | anyone notice a differance without a helmut or half shell compared to a 3/4 or full face ?
my radio sounds much better with a half helmet. I have an early 08 . |
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Tourer
Posts: 401
| joe schmoe - 2010-06-17 9:01 AM
nightvision - 2010-06-17 9:53 AM no pre amp out puts. Most of these smaller amps just us the speaker wires from the radio. Intead of them running to the speakers, they will be rerouted to the amp. then the speaker
EXACTLY..>Radio has NO pre amp outputs!
Night - listen to these guys - they hit it on the nail. Without pre-amp outputs you will be creating more distortion and overdriving the inputs on an amp. There are work arounds, but they are cheap dime store fixes to sell you junk amps.
Every audiophile and sound engineer out there will tell you - speakers, speakers, speakers. They do the real work of producing the sound waves that you will hear, and the electronics behind them do only one thing - support the "speakers".
Edited by sgiacci 2010-07-06 4:04 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | Have you guys ever heard of low level line convertors? Speaker level input with pre-amp level outputs. Your biggest problem is going to be finding a decently small enough amp to mount somewhere that puts out decent power. Believe me I've tried and they can get pretty expensive for a good one. I've already gone where you guys are headed. Better speakers, good amp, speaker baffles for the enclosures, enclosure mods, low level line convertor, and etc., etc. I have now racked up about $600 just trying to get a better sounding stereo!!! Good Luck! And don't even think about trying to put in a subwoofer unless you want to only slow roll everywhere you go. You just can't hear it that well. It's just not worth all the expense just to hear your stereo at highway speeds. |
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Tourer
Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM | Installed the following amp in the CD players slot in my trunk. Made a mounting plate out of stainless. Upgraded the front speaker to cerwin vega's and the rear to 5" woofers all rated @ 4 ohms. Sounds much better while sitting. Plan on road testing this weekend on a trip to the Four Corners Rally in Durago. I'm sure I'll see some rain.
Line level converters:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390227290468&ssP...
Amp link: 100W x 4
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=320-302&utm... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 144
| Here is what I did and the write up for it.
Hi, sorry it took so long to get back to all that asked about this. I have here the speaker and amp upgrade instructions for all that want them. It took me so long because I had problems at first with the setup and wanted to be sure it was right before posting and it was a simple fix. Then good weather took over and well, riding came first. I don't have but 2 pictures for you so far, sorry but will explain in detail on how to do it at a cost of around $300 not six to eight hundo and not only front speakers but all 4 speakers. This is a 4 speakers setup and it kicks hard. Now I want you to know I am a sound man. I have a DJ bus. and have been in and out of bands for over 32 years. So I know how to hook up all types of sound audio. If you want to do this then good and if you don't please don't discourage others not too if they are set in doing so. Its not easy but its not all that hard either. Please read all the instructions before begining to do anything to your bike as to make sure this is what you want. As for me I like my music loud and being a DJ and also battling deer on my way to work, so this lets them know I'm coming, this is what I wanted.
I must also add no Visions were killed or injured during this audio transformation.
I have the pictures of the amp and line level converter but lost the others. I will add more if I can to this post later.
Now for the instuctions:
1). You must remove these items off the bike. Dash cover, front speaker covers mirrors and speaker enclosures, front accsess pannel, center consol, seat and cheese wedge, rear speaker covers and pass backrest, front and rear speakers. And turn the radio all the way down and turn the speed av to nothing.
2). Remove the front speakers and take note of the pos. and neg. speaker leads for use later. I used Infinity speakers because they have a larger speaker area then others and are great speakers, but as with most bigger speakers they don't fit right in the enclosures. So I have read that some made spacers and thats too hard for most to do and I didn't like that so, I removed and then modified the enclosures by setting the speaker in it and rubbing it back and forth then take it out to see where the speaker hits (2 spots). Then I took a small propane tourch and heated the inside of that area real good and made it soft enough to use the handle of my hammer and push out the spot where the speaker hits, do this while the enclosure is laying on the ground. The first side took a while and the second I got it the first try. Don't worry if you poke through the plastic because you can use silicone on the outside to fix and seal any open spots. Once you get the speaker to almost fit flush in the enclosure(about 1/8 inch gap is close enough) your good. But don't put the enclosure back in as of yet.
3). Routing the wires. I don't know about the hawg kit but I know it say's its a plug in system. But I tell you, If they use the same speaker wires for anything other than stock it will sound like crap compared to this.
You must use 50ft of 12 awg and 50ft of 16 awg speaker wire and what you want to do is cut 2 15ft lengths of each both 12 awg and 16 awg and then cut the remainder in half. You will need to put conectors on the 12 awg ends that are going to the speakers but not to the amp ( they have slots on the amp for the speaker wires). Now rout them into the enclosure first then put the enclosure back in the bike leaving enough wire to hook to the speaker. Now cut the ends off the orig. speaker wires and splice in the 16 awg wires to them with conectors and they go to the in line converter( thats later). Rout the wires together right and left ones that go to the amp and ones that go to the in line converter ( marking the right side with tape so you know which is which later right and left ) go from the front so you can wire tie them at a point just under the dash where they are almost out of sight and run them down along the left side on top of the frame. As you go you can use wire ties and attach them to the wires that already run that way. Take them all the way under where the seat would be but be careful not to place them under where the seat meets the frame or you will pinch them. Rout them to the left saddle bag side, as you must drill a hole big enough for all the wires to fit through speaker and power wires about a 1 inch hole (you can find a grommet at the auto store). If you are lookig at the inside of the saddle bag at the top left after the bend starts down toward the rear is where you want the hole which will be under the seat area.
With the the back speakers out leave 6 to 8 inchs of the 12 awg wire hang out of the speaker holes. Put conectors on those ends that will go to the speakers and run them to the crossover networks supplied with the back speakers and the crossovers will fit in the empty space under the trunk compartment so just wire tie them in there after you hook the wires from the back speakers and the rest of the 12 awg wire that will go to the amp. And rout those wires to the hole along with the other wires. And do the same with the orig. rear speaker wires as you did with the front and run them down along with the rest.
The power wire (red or + side) will also run along with the speaker wire from the front but will attach to the battery with a fuseable link in between and will meet up with the speakers wire where the wire meet the frame and run along with the speaker wires from there. Now there is also a second red power wire that must be put in for the amp. The amp has 3 power wires 2 red and one ground. The second REM is a smaller wire and can be 16awg also but not speakers wire. It will run from the rocker switch you will install in the extra slot on the consol. You can get a rocker switch that looks pretty close to what is there at the auto store or Victory sells them also. Now with the rocker switch in place, splice in to the hot side on the caution lights right next to this rocker you just put in. Use a test light and turn the key to acss. and find the hot side of the caution wire but don't put on the caution lights while doing this. Hook that to this new switch and run the other side from the new switch back along with all the other wires and it will go to the REM on the amp. This wire does not power the amp it only tells the amp to power on, so that it doesnt come on all of a sudden.
The ground wire will hook up to the computer box ground that is under the seat and will go through the same hole as all the rest of the wires.
The next thing is the cpu case fan, You will get that from Newegg.com get the Vantec TD8038H 80mm it will keep the amp cool in the saddle bag. If you are in cooler temps area you may not need it but in 90 plus its a must. It will mount just below the wire hole and closest to the opening on the flat spot of the side of the saddle bag toward the front. You must drill a bunch of little 3/16 holes in the side of that area for hot air to get out. And bolt the fan to the side on the inside of the saddle bag. Then run the red 16 awg power wire from the fan to the red side of the heated seat wire and splice into it. The ground will go to the amp ground.
Now you will pull all that wire through what seems like the smallest hole ever now, but if you do it one at a time it will go.
The wiring is the worst part and I tried to be as detailed as posible, so for some it might seem like to much info but for others it makes a wold of difference.
4). Mounting the amp. This amp just fits in the saddle bag like it was made for it. If you look at the first picture you can see its up on that little bump at the back of the bag. Put it up against there and mark where the 1/8 inch holes need drilled to mount it. And then drill the holes but dont mount it yet.
Next take the wires that you ran from the orig speaker wires and conect them to the in line converter by following the instucts for the converter. You will get that from amazon. You will turn it all the way up on the converter.
Next the rca cords attach them from the converter to the amp and the ground will also go to the amp with all the other ground wires.
Hook up the rest of the wires to the amp. where they are suppose to go ( follow the amps owners manual).
Now with every thing hooked up lastly being the main power lead, then put the fuse in. Turn on the radio and make sure before hand that it was turned down first. Turn on the roker switch and turn up the levels on the amp turn them to max, turn the base half way and leave the others down. Now very slowly turn up the radio one notch at a time and see if it is playing on all 4 speakers and if it is then turn it down and everthing off and mount the amp with small screws in the saddle bag and then try it again and make sure all is still working after mounting the amp.
Hook the ground from the fan in last after the first test because it is loud.
Well thats it I will get more pictures uploaded and if you have ant Q's just ask. I know it looks like alot but its not that bad. It took me about 3 hrs total and is well worth it at only $300.
Here is a list of everything needed,
5032cf Infinity front speakers 5.25 $60
Pyle plg5c speakers $37
Jensen amp $69
Scosche SLC4 speaker level converter $23
And about $100 for the rest, 50ft each of 12awg 16awg speaker wire and 16awg power wire and 10awg amp wire kit, wire conectors, screws, wire tester.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 47
Lynchburg Virginia | Dain - 2010-08-31 3:03 PM Here is what I did and the write up for it.... For those less than able at electronics like my self I hear that Arlen Ness has a plug in setup with amp. and speakers that has killer sound. Of course there is a price. Around $750.00 Check their web site under Vision. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 144
| Yes BLK08 they have systems out there for about $750 but its just with front speakers not the back. This is a 4 speaker system and you almost have to do the same thing as with thiers but this system uses new speaker wire (a must for any good sound system) and makes thiers other systems sound like crap and is only around $300, enough said. Dain |
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Cruiser
Posts: 132
Durango, Colorado | nailer - 2010-08-30 1:12 PM Installed the following amp in the CD players slot in my trunk. Made a mounting plate out of stainless. Upgraded the front speaker to cerwin vega's and the rear to 5" woofers all rated @ 4 ohms. Sounds much better while sitting. Plan on road testing this weekend on a trip to the Four Corners Rally in Durago. I'm sure I'll see some rain. Line level converters: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390227290468... Amp link: 100W x 4 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=320-302&utm_source=Retail&utm_medium=Email_Newsletter&utm_content=320-302&utm_campaign=email081210[/QUOTE] Nailer, I'll look for you at the rally, I live in Bayfield and the weather forcast here is dry and sunny. First time in a long time for the rally. What color vision are you on? Mine is SSG. Maybe we'll run into each other. Cheers and be safe on your journey! paulhu |
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Stereo Impedance and power output