|
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Ok this may be kinda long but here goes. My Vision doesn't like tar snakes at all and at one point last summer I was actually considering givig it up and buying something else. However I'm very curious by nature so I've tried new tires which seem to help but don't eliminate the hopping completely. Now mind you I've ridden 40+ years and in excess of 1 million miles on bikes all over the world so I know most bikes don't like tar snakes but the Vision is the worst I've experienced.
Since part of it is flex (in my opinion)and the option for a fork brace is out of the question for now, I've been considering ways of getting some of the weight and pressure off the front. I always lowered my HD's in the rear which improved stability on checkering, metal grate and tar snakes. On my Goldwings I always ran a fork brace and spring preload spacers.
So I'm thinking if I lower the Vision in the rear as I did wth the HD's it might tame the front a little on the road junk and in particular the tar snakes. Having a look visually it appears it would level the bike to a neutral stance by replacing the stock suspension arm with a shorter/adjustable link.
With that said I know some folks here have shortened their stock linkage and others have purchased the 8 Ball Visions with the shorter link. What I like to see in the replies to this are experiences/seat of the pants opinions with either the shortened link or folks who's bike came stock with the shorter link. Does it "seem" to improve stability and/or have you noticed an improvement in those area's? Any down side to running the shorter suspension link?
Thanks for your replies in advance....... T
ps... This post is NOT intended to start a debate over handling characteristics of the Vision as we all have our "personal" ride habits, likes and dislikes. |
|
| |
|
Rockwall, TX United States | I had my VV lowered in the rear ~ 1.50" by shortening the stock link. The seat height was changed in order to let me stand flat footed at a stop. The side benefit,at least for me, was that it also improved my riding experience. It's probably more psychological than anything but, I feel a little more planted in the turns. I've put on 15K+ miles since the mod and have experienced zero handling problems.
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| kitster, the planted feeling you are experiencing is probably very real. Balanced suspension compresses equally which really does set the bike down firm to the ground. Thanks for the input. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | I would be inclined to believe that lowering the rear will not make a measurable difference in the weight distribution of the bike. The only measurable change would be a bit more positive caster on the front wheel. This will most certainly help stability while making steering just a tad more difficult, but does not address the underlying problem with "tar snakes" that all bikes, including Vision, have. In my opinion, a solution needs to be address by the tire companies. It is a tire-meets-road problem that can only be engineered by a tire company. I am still using the original tires and they pretty much ignore tar snakes as long as the temp. stays below 70F. Warmer and they start to make an effect. This would lead me to believe that it's not the ridges of the tar snakes, but the constancy. For curiosities sake I think I will try to get in contact with someone in Dunlop and see if there has ever been any research done related to "tar snakes". 
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I believe the highway department should be responsible for roadways and the safety of all motorized vehicles that are authorized to use them. We have plenty of tar snakes here in VA and as well as slick spots created by a patching they use. I've nearly lost it a few times because of these spots in the rain because they are slick when wet. On the straights, overall are not a problem, however, there would be no braking at this spots creating a very hazardous situation. Also, in using these on curves makes for a interesting ride as I have encountered a few times. There is a VDOT call-in number and the next time I positively identify one of these spots, I'll give them a call about them.
What I read on the Vision is that the weight distro is 50/50 which is not like most bikes, but it is what makes the Vision the Vision. I've not read the weight distro on the X-bikes, but I'm curious as to what that is. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| We have been tra snaked to death here the past two years. Here is something I noticed purely by accident. I get the twist from tar snakes even at slow speeds like taking a left at an intersection where I need to cross tar snakes. If the front has dipped due to braking it compounds the twist/slide affect and since mine dips quite considerably under braking I believe lowering the rear might reduce this tendancy. Thats why the question to find what others have experienced after lowering.
As noted tar snakes are generally not an issue until temps increase above 80-85 degrees on the roads I mostly frequent. At those temps they become very unpredictable. So I'll likely give the lowering a try if I can't get any responses that come to a conclusive position one way or the other. Thanks for the replies so far and I look forward to hearing from anyone else that wants to contribute.
Varyder, in PA ABATE was able to get PennDot to stop using a compound that was made from old tires, stuff was slick as snot and really swelled during warm days. Also became real slick after being rained on, so it sounds very much like what you are posting about. You might inquire as to what compound they are using. If it is the rubber stuff PA did (ongoing 5 year study) a study on it that may help convince them to stop using it. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Picked up a 2" adjustable link today and I'll get it installed in the next couple weeks. It is adjustable from stock to -2"... I'll post my findings after I get it installed and find a setting I like (good or bad). |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | Teach, post up where you purchased the lowering link. Inquiring minds want to know... |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| 1atom I purchased it at my dealer who has 3 more links in stock. It looks just like the stock unit except it has a threaded section with locknut which allows it to be adjusted. My dealer is OffRoad Express Erie Pa, phone # (814)825-4747 ask for Brian in parts and he can give you all the specifics. Oh and they'll ship the part to you if you want to purchase one. List was $150 but I get "great" discounts (don't want to put them on the spot by posting $$) & I'm sure they'll hook you up with a great deal as well. Worst case they give you all the info and you can shop it around. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | I have slide on tar snakes below 70 degrees. In fact, it was 60 and dry the first time one took me by surprise on the Vision. I was turning left pulling a trailer at about 10~15mph. It was a very large intersection so I didn't need to turn sharp. Since I was pulling a trailer, I went very slow. It slid so far I put a foot down to upright the bike.
I shucked it off as being the fault of the extra "push" from the trailer. I still couldn't believe it slid going so slow. So, I went back another day to try it again with just the bike. This time I went slower because I was still spooked. It slide again. Not so spooky since there was no trailer, but still suprised me. I tried a third time just to make sure I was experiencing what I thought I was. I avoid that intersection now.
Tar snakes suck on any bike, especially on a Vision with trailer in tow. I would like to know if anyone has a way to help the bike handle them better. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Teach - 2010-05-03 8:46 PM
1atom I purchased it at my dealer who has 3 more links in stock. It looks just like the stock unit except it has a threaded section with locknut which allows it to be adjusted. My dealer is OffRoad Express Erie Pa, phone # (814)825-4747 ask for Brian in parts and he can give you all the specifics. Oh and they'll ship the part to you if you want to purchase one. List was $150 but I get "great" discounts (don't want to put them on the spot by posting $$) & I'm sure they'll hook you up with a great deal as well. Worst case they give you all the info and you can shop it around.
Thanks - got mine the other day... Now to put it in. Have you done yours yet?
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Webhair, I'm going to let my dealer do it on the 27th. After doing some measuring I've decided that 1.5" below stock should be about right. I decided to let the dealer handle it for a couple reasons; First it isnt that expensive, second after some discussion it seems you need to disconnect both the shock and link in order to get the old out/new in, and probably the most important reason is my lift broke down, lol...
I'll post my thoughts after it is installed and I've ridden a few miles. |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 48
Oakdale MN | I'm running the Potenza CT and think that helps ease the feeling of tar snakes on the road. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Teach - 2010-05-10 9:51 PM
Webhair, I'm going to let my dealer do it on the 27th. After doing some measuring I've decided that 1.5" below stock should be about right. I decided to let the dealer handle it for a couple reasons; First it isnt that expensive, second after some discussion it seems you need to disconnect both the shock and link in order to get the old out/new in, and probably the most important reason is my lift broke down, lol...
I'll post my thoughts after it is installed and I've ridden a few miles.
I actually got two - one for my wife's vision and one for mine... She is ready for it NOW - or so I have been told... So we may do her's this weekend... Mine - I am waiting to see if I like hers. I really don't have a need but like the idea of it sitting a little lower...
Will let you know how it goes... I really like the craftsman ship of the link!
Thx |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 93
Saskatchewan (hard to say, easy to draw ) | <p>From the Articles section. " Vision Mods from across the Pond" lowering the rear suspension. Is this what you guys installed? http://www.vision-riders.com/articles.asp?article=16671</p>
Edited by Jim 2010-05-11 12:19 PM
(Visionsuspensionlink-sm.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 Visionsuspensionlink-sm.jpg (5KB - 11 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | The ones Webhair and Teach just bought look quite different. Maybe one of them will post a pic.... |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Jim, it is similar to that one less the extra external nut. The one I picked up has a threaded center w/locknut so the threaded section screws into the link tube itself. Same concept just a bit more rigid.
For the record I picked up a Ness seat for summer riding as well, just because I like it.
rcvision, lol....... dude the darkside doesn't have any effect on the front end jumping off tar snakes in fast sweepers. They do make the bike a bit more of a flat runner on straight road, but the concern with tar snakes is in the sweepers where the front tire slides off them causing a flex/slip feel. Thanks for the suggestion/thought though. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 93
Saskatchewan (hard to say, easy to draw ) | Thanks Terach! I looked at this and thought that it looked a bit like what I use to tighten my gate! LOL. Hope you are ridin' low! |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 43
| Has anyone thought about the affects you will have when riding two up? Just to sit back and think about it, i would think it will give a much better ride because the way the air flows around the Vision when it is closer to the ground.... This is just a thought! any ideas? |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Huntdiv - 2010-05-11 10:17 PM
Has anyone thought about the affects you will have when riding two up? Just to sit back and think about it, i would think it will give a much better ride because the way the air flows around the Vision when it is closer to the ground.... This is just a thought! any ideas?
I have not thought much about it. The reason... My wife has her own Vision and Vegas... Now if a cute "little" thing wants a ride... first the wife must bless (Ain't going to happen)... so back to it is not a problem...
I will try and post a picture of the link over the weekend... I think I am going to tackle it Saturday as there is a 40% rain here... Besides - she wants it done before Helen.
|
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Ok - I have the adjustable link installed in on my wife's Vision... Just follow the manual to pull the rear wheel and rear shock and install the new link. Reinstall the assembly. Once we got that done we realized we only lowered it 1/2 inch... Pull the saddle bag lid and the panel below it. Loosen the lock nut and jack the bike up to take the lower bolt out of the link and then you can adjust the height... On the front we just slid the forks up a little further into the triple trees about 5/8 to 3/4 of an inch. No problem with the assembly...
The bike is sitting 1" lower... Looks good - has not change the handling... Cornering is most likely a little closer but have not gotten there yet...
Now for the bad news - It felt like it was botteming out a little.. Hit a speed bump pretty good to find out and sure enough the swing arm is botteming out. Yes - it hit hard enough to crack the saddle bag liner (hard plastic).
The solution - install the Ness V-1247 Vision Saddle Bag Inserts (Arizona Victory or Ness has them) problem will be solved... They are on order now...
At this point I do not think I will install the other adjustable link in my Anniverary...
|
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Ness makes an engine case protector (like a bash plate for a dirt bike) for that very reason. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | TP, I believe WH is describing where there is limited room in the rear wheel well and the swing arm does its full travel and the the inside of the saddle bag gets hit because of the lowering.
Though I am concerned that if I hit something hard enough on the engine and it being a support member that the bike would break in half. I know I would have a big problem if that was ever to happen, but coming apart would make a diaster and BIG Diaster!
Another back in the mind though is "what if" my big hind end is causing too much stress on the casing and it cracks going down the road. I hope I could just hang onto the handle bars and surf the front half until I came to a halt as I watched the rear shoot by me. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Ah, enlightenment!
Regardless my poor reading of the post, given my experience grounding the frame on my lowered HD over local speed bumps, I wouldn't lower a Vision without installing a bash plate. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Ya know I have been thinking about that - the bash plate. At this point I am thinking of waiting to see how it goes... I want to get some more measurements first. And the big question - how much lower or less ground clearence would the bash plate create???
Another thought ot keep in mind - currently for testing purposes - there is no air in the shock - zero.
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Ok now I'm perplexed. What do you mean the swing arm bottomed out? Bottomed against what? What air pressure were you running?
WH the reason I'm asking is you should still have 3.7" or rear suspension travel and nothing to bottom against. Curious... Did you measure the new link against the stock to determine the exact reduction? Thanks in advance...... T |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | The swing arm came up and hit the bottom of the bags - the bags are notched for the swing arm and pulley.
The air pressure was about 20 lbs when it was bumpy. bottom out at 6 lbs. There is no trunk on the bike and is only a single rider... less then 190...
As for the 3.7" of tavel - I am wondering if it upward swing is a lot less then the downward and the total travel is 4.7... Just thinking.
Yes, we measured the link and compaired it with the old one. Once we got it in it only lowered the bike 1/2 and inch... The dealer in PA told me that the link would be adjusted to 1/2 of the total distance that I wanted to lower it. Well that was not the case. It ended up needing to be measured and adjusted to 1". Since I had purchased two links - We had one of the bench to play with and determine the correct adjustment to bring the bike down 1"
All measurements were at the axle bolt from the floor to the bottom of the pipes.
I will PM you my number and we can talk...
I call the dealer back in PA and the normal parts guy was out. The kid that answered the phone had no clue what I was talking about.
I ended up calling Arizona Victory and talking with them... They said they always install the Ness bag insert kit even if it is only a 1" lowering link that they are putting in. They said it will bottom out... My kit should arrive this week...
At this point I am planning on completeing it this weekend... My wife wants it all down for the SE Meet in Helen, GA in a week and a half...
Edited by Webhair 2010-05-24 8:14 AM
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Thanks for the reply Webhair. I'm having mine done on Thursday and I'll let you know what I discover. I plan to have them measure the stock link and set it exactly 1" below that stock link measurement. I'll keep you posted on my experience. |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | Teach - 2010-05-25 5:03 PM Thanks for the reply Webhair. I'm having mine done on Thursday and I'll let you know what I discover. I plan to have them measure the stock link and set it exactly 1" below that stock link measurement. I'll keep you posted on my experience. Teach, DO NOT set the lowering link 1 inch lower than the stock link. You won't even make it out of the parking lot. The guys who make the links say 2:1 ratio. So a 1/2 inch shorter than stock should equal a 1 inch drop. Webhair and I did not find this to be the case. We had to actually lower the link a total of 3/4 of an inch to get the bike to drop one inch. Maybe your wrench will get lucky the first time, but we had to play with it to get an exact 1 inch drop. Again, the saddlebag interior damage was caused with a 1 inch drop...
|
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 62
ESCALON CA. | how come 8-balls don't hit the bags? |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | The 8 Ball shock is a different part number than all the other Vision models. It either has a shorter stroke, an internal stop or the dampening is significantly different... |
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 24
Eagle Mountain, Utah | I just had my dealer installed the adjustable link, charge me for 1/2 labor and lower the seat by 1 1/2". have not expereince any botteming out yet. i like it much better, handling was great and does not seem to make any difference when cornering. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 143
Birmingham, AL 08 MC Tour Premium 2012 Bronze Mist | Ok, I've been following this thread and finally decided I'd order one of the adjustable links from Off Road Express that Teach mentioned. I gave them a call and asked about it. They told me it was $150 and they were out of stock and having more made with an ETA of late week. Just an FYI for the rest of the lurkers out there.
Are there other sources for such a piece? I've googled till I'm blue in the face.
Even thought about buying a factory link and having it "altered" only to find out the list price on the stock part is $250.
|
|
| |
|
Puddle Jumper
Posts: 24
Eagle Mountain, Utah | My suggestion is to wait for Off Road Express to get more in, you will not be dissapointed. I got one from them and had it installed last week, it was great to be able to have my foot almost flat on the ground, since i'm only 5' 2" tall. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 60
Vancouver, B.C. & La Quinta, CA | Lowering as done by Arlen Ness apparently requires a saddlebag change to the inner wall of the bags which allows for full motion. Worth the money, that's up to you, but no hassles with even a two inch drop. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| For anyone shopping, Brian at OffRoad has the links in question made up to be sold. They had several shorter customers that needed shortened links and decided that rather than cutting and welding the stock ones it would be better to get some made. Very nice quality and reasonably priced.
1atom, thanks for the heads up. The guys in the shop have done several so they probably know what you mentioned but I'll make sure. Thank you. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Here is a helpful tip - let the air out of the shock before you start...
Then readjust once the install is complete...
Arizona Victory also sells lowering links - however they are fixed lenght. They also carry the Ness bag inserts that may be needed if you really want to get it down in the weeds.
Edited by Webhair 2010-05-27 8:52 AM
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Ok link is installed and I did a short 200 mile putt to put the bike through any conditions on the road I might experience. So here is my run down.
Chris at OffRoad adjusted the link 3/4" below the factory link and had me come sit on the bike. It is noticeably lower. I'm 6' tall with a 34" inseam so I didn't need low but I wanted the rear down as usual to perform a little experiment. With the 2010 Ness seat on the bike and the tall Vision shield I look 1" below the top of the ws, so if you had the stocker you'd be looking just over the top edge. Upon returning home I swapped the stock seat back on and it places my line of vision right at the top edge of the ws (Mrs wants the stock seat on for the trip west because it's broken in).
First thing I noticed was handling. Not a big change but you do notice the handling seems a little heavier, almost like if you had a steering damperon the bike. I'm really sensative to bike changes so this was very noticeable to me, but others might not feel it or as much. Took it on a thruway and noticed the that the usual busy feel the vision can have is all but gone. Handling was still very smooth and responsive just not that overly busy feel you can get particularly when behind another vehicle.
I had the air pressure set at 60 psi but just lowered it to 45 which is my normal setting. Didn't have any bottoming on any type of hit but with it pumped up to 60 you rattle just about everything. Purposely took some big hits and nothing touched so I believe I'm safe to lower the psi level, but I'll let you know if I experience any issues as I lower the pressure. I plan to bump it down to 35 psi if 45 feels alright just so I know when too low is too low.
Unfortunately it did not resolve the tar snake issue as they still move the bike and make your cheeks clinch, lol... Overall I'd give the lowering a great review rating. While it did no do anything for the tar snakes it did take away a great deal of that busy feel in the steering without compromising performance. I'd go so far as to say handling improved as I like a tighter feel.
I'd be happy to answer any questions folks might have just don't ask me exactly how much it lowered the rear of the bike, I don't know. I'd say it is a good inch lower if I had to guess based on the line of sight height increase. |
|
| |
|
Cruiser
Posts: 143
Birmingham, AL 08 MC Tour Premium 2012 Bronze Mist | Teach, I take it you didn't have the Ness bag liners installed??? |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Nope stock bag liners and nothing hit tonight with the lower air setting. I've hit some good sized pot-holes, some of those speed bump type risers you get in the roads when the asphalt heaves up in a straight line across the road, and just about any other routine type of hazard one could expect to hit while riding. Roads are still in rough shape here as they are after winter, but no bottoming or hitting on anything. I'll lower to 35 tomorrow and give it some more testing but I'm thinking above 25 is going to be enough for solo riding and whatever one would normally run with a passenger on board. Since I normally run 45 it should be fine.
One note for those that lower. I just got in from a night ride so don't forget you'll need to adjust the headlite after lowering. |
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Ok little hiccup and something folks should know if they plan to lower. DON'T forget the belt will need adjusted. I noticed today that when I bounced the rear suspension riding that the bike felt a little like it was being lugged down. Pulled off and had a look at the belt because I suspected the tension was too tight. Sure enough the belt was way too tight. Dealer made a quick adjustment and all is right in the world again. |
|
| |
|
Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | Here are some pics of today's adventures with Webhair installing the Ness saddlebag inserts: The first pic is of the cracked saddlebags that were required to be removed.
(saddlebag cracks.JPG)
(saddlebag cutout.JPG)
(insert prepped.JPG)
(insert complete.JPG)
Attachments
----------------
saddlebag cracks.JPG (42KB - 6 downloads)
saddlebag cutout.JPG (79KB - 7 downloads)
insert prepped.JPG (46KB - 5 downloads)
insert complete.JPG (65KB - 3 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Looks like a pretty simple mod and you guys did a clean job of it. Congrats! I've bounced mine pretty hard so as to make it bottom but nothing hit. Now my newest problem is the bike sounds like I have a chicken stuck in the belt drive again.... Guess I'll get it back to the dealer in the morning for further belt adjustment. |
|
| |
|
Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | Thanks Teach. It was a fun little project. Easier then 1atom12 and I thought it was going to be. I took it out for a quick short ride and there were not further issues with the "bumpy ride" my wife was referring to.
It is now lowered "1" front and back (compared to my Vision) and has the 8-ball seat on it... It rides really sweet and look great.
We adjusted the belt after we first put the link in... Man was it tight!
Should have cleaned the wheel while a section of the bag was out...
Edited by Webhair 2010-05-29 6:41 AM
|
|
| |
|
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Well I'll be taking mine back to stock so anyone interested in the lower link send me a pm and I'll make arrangements to sell/ship it to you at a discount of course, lol... Since It really didn't have the intended outcome I'll just put it back the way it was. I'll likely have the link swapped sometime next week so I'll post when it is available if anyone wants it.
Gotta love these experiments. So I believe that is just about all of the mods that folks have come up with tried, lowering, different seat, DS tire.... The Ness seat is a keeper, the DS I can take or leave it, but the lowing didn't do anything for tar snakes which was the goal. If one has a shorter inseam (mines 34) or if they were just looking to get that lower sleeker look, the link is an easy mod that will get the results. So far I've figured out that 50 is ideal for air pressure with the link adjusted to 3/4" below factory. Soft ride and no bottoming. Thats about 5 psi above what I normally run but right at what I set it at with the trailer in tow. So I guess thats about all I have on the lowering, hope this info is helpful to somebody.... T |
|
| |