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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| Hello,
I could use some help understanding the difference, if any, between an oil cooled Victory Vision Verses the 103 CC Oil Cooled Ultra Classic. I will be buying a Vision or Ultra Classic soon and need to understand a couple of things. ( I am leaning towards the Vision in a huge way) I talked to my Victory dealer and he told me I could leave my Vison Running outside on a 90 degree day, for hours, in stop and go traffic and it would not over heat. He also mentioned I would not have to turn it on in off to manage the engine heat. I talked to the Harley people and they said their oil cooled engine would eventually over heat and I would have to shut it down and fire back up as needed. I ride a water cooled bike, Suzuki C50 T Boulevard, My first bike) obviously my bike overheating in stop and go traffic is not an issue, plus it is very comfortable on hot days.
If anybody could help me understand the differnece between the two coolong systems and provide any advice on what I need to be thinking about as far as my purchase, I would appreciate the help. Happy Trails!!
Mike from Indy. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 118
Capitol Region of NH | It will be interesting to watch the replies on this. I don't believe what your dealer is telling you is true. I have been on my Vision in 85-90 degree heat in traffic and seen my oil temp climb up close to 300 degrees before I shut it off while I was stopped. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The oil cooler as found on an HD is simply cooling the oil on the RETURN side of the oil feed. It does not cool the motor. It cools the oil tank. Yes that does translate to slightly lower engine temps, but heat saturation will eventually overcome the coolers ability to help.
The Vic uses separate section of the oil pump to move the hot oil from the motor, and push it through the cooler. From there it goes to the area behind the exhaust valves in the head[hottest point in motor] The cooled oil is dumped there to pull the heat away from there. It then wells into an area around the quench zone to pull combustion heat away, and return it to the crank case. While all this is going on the high pressure side of the pump is also squirting oil through a jet at the trans. This oil undergoes a phase change as it goes from high pressure liquid to a low pressure mist. This mist not only lubes the gears, and bearings of the trans. It also cools removes heat as it comes in contact with the shafts.
Now that all that that has happened Vic pulls another trick out of it's sleeve[pun intended] A victory unlike the HD has NO SLEEVE in it's cyl. The cyl is plated with "Nikasil" a super hard, and slipery plating that the rings ride on. This not only reduces wear, and friction. It eliminates the heat sink created by a cast iron liner. Allowing heat to transfer through the fins at a rate of 33% higher the a cyl with a sleeve |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| I agree. I believed him and felt a bit betrayed when I talked to the Harley Guys last weekend. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| Living in FL, do you ever have to shut your motor down? And thanks for the information. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | bikersarge - 2010-04-28 3:40 PM
Living in FL, do you ever have to shut your motor down? And thanks for the information.
I have been stuck for extended periods for the Daytona go slow, and NEVER have I shut it off. I have seen a total of ONE Vic that has been damaged by heat, and it was left in a shed for better then a hour running at idle. The door to the shed was open, but there was ZERO circulation. No idea as to the why it was left to idle, but I'll bet it had something to do with weed, or booze........Or maybe just plain stupidity |
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Cruiser
Posts: 118
Capitol Region of NH | Very interesting "Kevinx". It ceratinly sounds like you have a very in depth knowledge of the Victory motors. I for one am more comfortable now riding, or sitting on my Vision in traffic as the case may be, than before. Bikersarge, this sounds like great info. It would certainly play a large part in the decision if it were mine to make. But then again I wouldn't want a Harley even if it was given to me. JMHO. I will still be watching this thread to see what others have to say. But Kevinx seems to be able to back up his info. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| I just recently went from an '09 Road Glide with a 103" Stage II to the Vision. Merely from a seat of the pants impression the Vision radiates much less perceptible heat than my Harley did. There are probably other factors involved but under similar conditions like sitting in traffic where the Harley would verge on overheat and put itself in it's heat reduction mode, the Vision generates no discomfort at all. And that's with the lowers still in winter mode. I'm duly impressed!
Marc
Edited by marcparnes 2010-04-28 7:13 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | VICTORYTCRIDER and bikersarge,
Kevinx is one of the top Victory mechanics in the country.
One of his specialties is traveling around the country, installing Stage 2 cams, fuel controllers and upgraded air intakes in Victory Visions and now the Cross bikes. The last number I remember seeing was that he has done this work over 60 times on Freedom 106 engines. It normally bumps the HP from 85 to 105+ and the torque to over 105.
When the time is right I will add my Vision to his list of completed Stage II mods.
The time slipped further away again for me since a large tree limb fell on my roof and I need to remove two large trees and get my roof repaired......but some day I will get my Vision Kevinated!
Ride Safe |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Both bikes are air and oil cooled and both bikes will get hotter than the hubs of hell if you aren't moving fresh air across that oil cooler. I've ridden strictly air cooled HD's in 90+ temps at a snails pace and it got hot, but not pull over and shut down hot. Last summer coming through Pidgeon Forge (sp) in 90+ temps the Vision got so hot I pulled off for an hour to grab a burger and coke. It was still too fricken hot when I took back off an hour later. I wasn't worried about seizure issues, but it was HOT. I've overheated liquid cooled bikes in similar temps so they are not immune.
The point here is get the bike you like because ALL will overheat if the conditions are right. Obviously on a Victory site folks are very pro Vision. Consider what you intend to use the bike for and then decide which bike is going to provide the greatest advantage for your intended use. You will not find a bike with more room, a more comfy seat/ride and distinctly unique design... but the HD is nothing to sneeze at either. Good luck with your decision...... Oh and I wouldn't leave my Vision idling for hours, heck not even 10 minutes, but thats just a person opinion. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | Kevinx,
Thanks for that detailed explanation. I'm sure that helped many people on this forum better understand their bike.
Vision Riders,
When I first got my bike I got stuck in spring break traffic in Fort Meyers, FL for about 45 mins. I knew about the HD heat issue, so I was afraid the Vision was going have problems. Though it put off some heat the motor never showed any signs of getting too hot. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 152
Litchfield Park, AZ | Last fall I was on a Toys for Tots run and we sat in a stupid parade where we pretty much went nowhere for 45 minutes to an hour of block by block creeping. When we finally reached our destination the Vision was showing absolutely no issues, BUT when I shut her down for 10 minutes and then tried to restart her she really did not want to fire back up. 2 tries and she fired back up.....looked around and there were several H-Ds that were not firing back up at all. As was posted above, you put ANY motor through enough of a heat cycle and it will not be happy with you, but I'll take my chances with the Freedom 106 any day. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
| Thanks guys, I needed the info. For whatever reason I am hung up on this cooling issue. I have a buddy that works for Harley in their finance department and can help me as much as possible with saving some $$$$ on the Harley, however, that Vision just makes my palms sweat, heart flutter, head spin just like the first time I seen my............... divorce decree!!! announcing my new found FREEDOM!!!!
Thought I was going to say something else!!!
Question: Why is divorce so expensive???
Answer: Because it is worth it!!! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | bikersarge: If you decide on the Vision you'll like it alot. I still have my 2003 Roadglide but it's basicly my backup bike now. The Vision is just more comfortable........ |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | Even with the money this friend can maybe save you....you will very likely find that the Vision is still priced lower than the HD. And this is probably before starting to negotiate a price at the Victory dealer. |
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Tourer
Posts: 401
| kevinx - 2010-04-28 4:00 PM
bikersarge - 2010-04-28 3:40 PM
Living in FL, do you ever have to shut your motor down? And thanks for the information.
I have been stuck for extended periods for the Daytona go slow, and NEVER have I shut it off. I have seen a total of ONE Vic that has been damaged by heat, and it was left in a shed for better then a hour running at idle. The door to the shed was open, but there was ZERO circulation. No idea as to the why it was left to idle, but I'll bet it had something to do with weed, or booze........Or maybe just plain stupidity
Just one? That is impresive, but like kevin said, use some common sense.
One thing no one is talking about is the heat that is transfered to the driver. Since I just got my Vision, what should I expect during those hot summer days. Am I going to get baked in rush hour traffic? On my Vegas I didn't get as heated up as I would have thought, but that bike has a lot less plastic on it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yeah the Vision does throw off some heat, it's the full fairing lowers blocking airflow. I have the same problem when I have my lowers on my RoadGlide. Good thing about the RG is I take them off for summer. Unfortunately thats not an option on the big Vision. But I do love the style... |
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Tourer
Posts: 329
scotts valley, California | kevinx - 2010-04-28 2:00 PM bikersarge - 2010-04-28 3:40 PM Living in FL, do you ever have to shut your motor down? And thanks for the information. I have been stuck for extended periods for the Daytona go slow, and NEVER have I shut it off. I have seen a total of ONE Vic that has been damaged by heat, and it was left in a shed for better then a hour running at idle. The door to the shed was open, but there was ZERO circulation. No idea as to the why it was left to idle, but I'll bet it had something to do with weed, or booze........Or maybe just plain stupidity Common, Kevin, there wasn't any booze or weed involved; you told me that we had to anneal that new cam you installed. Oh, wait a minute.... did you say let her idle for an hour and cool off for five minutes OR let her idle for five minutes and cool off for an hour. Just a little humor there, Brother; I love the kevination you did to my bike. AND I wouldn't trade it straight across for a brand new Ultra 103. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | One thing no one is talking about is the heat that is transfered to the driver. Since I just got my Vision, what should I expect during those hot summer days. Am I going to get baked in rush hour traffic? On my Vegas I didn't get as heated up as I would have thought, but that bike has a lot less plastic on it.
The lower wind deflectors are a must-have. Warm in winter and cool in summer. You won't regret the purchase.
http://thevog.net/gallery/view/id_293/field_time/title_2009-vision-...
Cycleops.net also has some. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 21
Omaha, NE | BikerSarge, I have had 2 Ultra Classics and moved on to the Vision because I fell out of love with Harley and the way they treated me on the problems I had with my new '07 Ultra. In other words, they didn't take care of me. Now beyond that, I would have to stop and get off the Ultra after about 150 miles. With the Vision I was riding non-stop for 250 miles without any soreness. If I knew there was a gas station ahead, I would have rode the tank dry. Being able to kick my legs out is like riding my easy chair down the road. I climbed on my wing man's Ultra the other day and it felt like I was riding a gas tank. Everything is so much better with the Victory.
Good Luck. |
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| a bit off topic but, and I realize this is a Vic site, but the the suzuki c50 is a great bike. er, um, i mean, second to the vision of course.
the new HD has addressed the heat issue by shutting off the rear cylinder when it gets too hot. Vic addressed the heat issue by not getting too hot. ; )
after driving the vision and the ultra glide I can say the vision is more comfortable and more fun and that is what really matters.
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Cruiser
Posts: 105
Columbia, TN United States | Bikersarge, don't know where you live, but Shoals Outdoor Sports in Tuscumbia, Alabama, has the best VIctory prices in the nation. I saved $5409 on my 09. Their service is great and their salespeople are wonderful. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 42
TUCSON, AZ | As far as the heat issue goes on a Vision, Tucson and Phoenix riding is about as hot as it gets. I've done some careful prunning on the left inner fairing to uncover about one inch more of the radiator. this helps wih cooling and with heat on the left leg. My Vision never sees temps above 225 with cams and power commmander. Though the bike is a bit cool in the winter riding at 38 degrees ambient. |
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Tourer
Posts: 329
scotts valley, California | TheLoveDoctor - 2010-04-30 8:45 PM Bikersarge, don't know where you live, but Shoals Outdoor Sports in Tuscumbia, Alabama, has the best VIctory prices in the nation. I saved $5409 on my 09. Their service is great and their salespeople are wonderful. I would be very interested to hear the details of that $5409 savings. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 24
Eagle Mountain, Utah | I just purchased a brand new 2010 Black Vision Tour Premium with ABS for $20499.00 from Shark Cycle Polaris 11 Willington Ave Satfford Springs, CT 860-684-7763 talk to Bob. if you need anymore information let me know, Vinh. |
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Tourer
Posts: 329
scotts valley, California | Sounds like you did well. I bought my '08 in August of '08 from Arlen Ness in Pleasanton for about $21,500. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 118
Spfld, IL but temp Bay area, CA | While we are talking over-heating, I have a question that I have not heard the answer to.
Why does the 106 only hold 4.5 qts and my TC with the 92 holds 6 qts? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | years ago i had a geo prizm with a 1.6litre engine that held 3.0qts on a oil change! |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | GURNZ - 2010-05-03 7:44 PM
While we are talking over-heating, I have a question that I have not heard the answer to.
Why does the 106 only hold 4.5 qts and my TC with the 92 holds 6 qts?
I'll take a stab at this. First, there is about a half quart that doesn't get changed, it actually has 5 quarts to circulate. Next, I would say the newer motors cool better so the additional quart is not needed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2010-05-03 9:35 PM
GURNZ - 2010-05-03 7:44 PM
While we are talking over-heating, I have a question that I have not heard the answer to.
Why does the 106 only hold 4.5 qts and my TC with the 92 holds 6 qts?
I'll take a stab at this. First, there is about a half quart that doesn't get changed, it actually has 5 quarts to circulate. Next, I would say the newer motors cool better so the additional quart is not needed.
Personally I like the concept of the case being 10mm narrower, and there is an extra set of gears taking up space in the smaller confines |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 619
Southeast Iowa | Victory narrowed the engine case when they introduced the 100" motor in the Hammer to allow for better lean angles. (at least that's what they said) This reduced the capacity some and I'm sure what Kevin said about the extra gear makes sense too. No mater how well I drain the 106" she's full in 4 1/4 quarts. As far as cooling goes I doubt that has anything to do with it. The old Vics had larger oil coolers which probably did as good as job as what they are running today. I'm sure the larger oil cooler also held more oil too.
Edited by Big Vic 2010-05-07 3:39 PM
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Oil Cooled, Victory Verses Harley