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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-indian-bikes24-2009dec24,0,16...
an article on the Indian which has had its share of problems, to include the newest ones from King Mountain. I'm blown away by two things in this article, one, it is said to be the "Bentley" of motorcycles, and two, no mention of Victory. It seems it is all about Harley and them. Now with that said, I too would love to own an Indian, but would rather it be one of the older ones as I've always been captivated by the looks. But I know I'm riding the Bentley of motorcycles and wonder why do they thing that their only competition is Harley. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Kills me the way they pass on the blue sky heritage that goes with the name. These things are not any more an Indian then a Johnny Pag machine. I know of three people that own them, and all have sent the bike back to the factory at least two times for major repairs | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 619
Southeast Iowa | Indian much like Harley are great examples of "brand power" People will buy them (at least for a few years) because of the heritage behind the name. This was true for Stanley and Black & Decker for many years but the name only goes so far. After many years of so-so products the competition past them, they are no longer considered premium products and now compete with the cheap shit. I don't believe HD and Indian are at that point, but the truth is they don't beat Victory in ride, handling, ergonomics, dependability, or power. The heritage of Indian and HD will not last forever............sooner rather than later they are going to have to build meaningful motorcycles that can compete with their competition. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Indian will live as long as they can afford to because I don't believe they'll ever make a profit to justify their existance. Harley will continue to hang on their banner, though that harley folks buy today really don't hold a candle to what they were when my uncle rode. Today harleys are more of a trinket to hang around your neck or stick a sticker on or a t-shirt. They're living off of what they use to be when bikers were the bad boys and girls of the world. The majority of the harley riders I know makes it a special event to ride and I laugh when I hear them say that they "rode" the other day. And the real riders, well, I never get to talk to them as they are riding. Out of all the Richmond area south where I live there might be about 5 of us that actually ride. I believe these riders have their bikes set to ride as well. My point I'm leading too is that Victory has designed a bike to ride, not just with the Vision but with other models as well. I've talked with riders of things like the TC or the KP and they like the ride, comfortable, albiet not as comfortable as the Vision. Harley makes a motorcycle and sells it because it is a harley, but knowing riders it is a pisser to ride. To many mods to make just so you can ride all day long without the pain.
I will challenge the heritage of Indian and HD will not last forever, the names will long live. however, dispite them not really building any meaningful motorcycles. People love to say, or hear them say "I ride a Harley" or "I ride an Indian." I believe if Victory will hold its course in building a competable motorcycle less people will say "Is that a Harley?" when you say "I ride a Victory" but don't believe it will ever edge out the Harley, and despite the struggles, the Indian names. In the scheme of things, Harley is Indian's Heritage that filters to our heritage as well. Without those guys it is likely there would have never been a Victory.
Edited by varyder 2009-12-31 9:06 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | While I have always loved the look of the Indian, and think from a purely esthetic standpoint the PowerPlus engine is the best looking v-twin engine ever built, I find it difficult to believe that this venture will end any differently than any of the other attempts to revive Indian. I guess the real question is, will the new management be able to find enough people willing to ignore reality that will drop up to 36K for a retro cruiser to keep the doors open?
For the same amount of money you can own a restored '47, for 15 grand more you can buy an inline 4 , if owning an Indian is that important to you why not buy a real one?
When confronted with modern HDs available from 12K it doesn't seem like a good bet from a competitive standpoint. You can buy a lot of fringed leather, chrome and custom paint for 14 thousand dollars, granted, it wont be an Indian but..........$26K for a naked factory bike?
It is also seems that it must be hard to sell heritage when the last 50 years of that heritage have been one of abject failure. Speaking of failures perhaps Indian should target those Wall Street / Bank execs looking for that exclusive item to drop some of their bonuses on. I'll bet a $750 distressed leather fringed, combo money / kidney belt ( with embossed Indian Head logo) would sell like hot-cakes if the Indian became the must have status symbol for the fiscally irresponsible; after all Bentley is selling a leather laundry bag for 395 GBP.
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Cruiser
Posts: 238
SF Bay Area | The real value of Indian motorcycles is the history, memories, a handful of the pre-1953 bikes and the intellectual property(trademarked logo).
After going BK in 1953, 1999, and 2003, you would thing they would have had enough.
Bummer timing to restart the company for the 4th time as the economy slips... they should have stuck to making T-Shirts and swag, IMO, and let the marque die with dignity.
Cool logo, tho...
Edited by buddahead 2009-12-31 10:11 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Lets not forget Floyd Clymer's ill fated 70's attempt to re-badge machines from Velocette, Royal Enfield, Laverda, and those cute little Minarelli mini bikes.
Edited by Tarpits99 2009-12-31 10:43 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | I got to do a 25 mile test ride on a new Indian as my dealer has both Indian and Victory. The call was unamious the bike had a long way to go to even be a harley not to mention a Victory. I am sure some people will buy it as a bar hopper and say the "look I ride an Indian" cry. For my money I ride the best bike out there for me. Everyone has their own opinion what is best for them. Archie | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | buddahead - 2009-12-31 9:07 AM
The real value of Indian motorcycles is the history, memories, a handful of the pre-1953 bikes and the intellectual property(trademarked logo).
After going BK in 1953, 1999, and 2003, you would thing they would have had enough.
Bummer timing to restart the company for the 4th time as the economy slips... they should have stuck to making T-Shirts and swag, IMO, and let the marque die with dignity.
Cool logo, tho...
Not sure about this article but the guy who put together the buyout is betting on this. He's the same guy who bought out Chris Craft boats and helped remake the company (he has no preference on who/what). The buyout happened long ago and they've spent the last year or two redesigning the bike. The review I read (I think it was Oct. Motorcyclist mag) went over the history of the man, the Co. and then reviewed the rides. The verdict I got out of the article was that the "Bottle Cap" engine looked nice but the bike and engine alike underperformed and was overpriced. I'm not any kind of authority but I would steer clear of buying into any company that was selling overpriced units in an oversaturated market. Bad timing for a start up if nothing else... | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 29
| My bikes better than your bike! Na, Naaaa, Na, Naaa, Na! Stop all this anti-Harley shit and just ride. Its about the ride not the bike! You ride what you like and I ride what I like. Same mentality that some Harley riders have. Just forget about the elitetist bullshit and just RIDE!!!
Edited by UntamedBill 2009-12-31 7:22 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| buddahead - 2009-12-31 11:07 AM
The real value of Indian motorcycles is the history, memories, a handful of the pre-1953 bikes and the intellectual property(trademarked logo).
After going BK in 1953, 1999, and 2003, you would thing they would have had enough.
Bummer timing to restart the company for the 4th time as the economy slips... they should have stuck to making T-Shirts and swag, IMO, and let the marque die with dignity.
Cool logo, tho...
Exactly WHEN in 1999 did Indian file bankruptcy? Since that was the year California Motorcycle Corporation started producing Indians after a protracted lawsuit over who had the rights to the name, I've never seen anything in writing anywhere about the Indian name entering bankruptcy that year.
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| As an owner of a 2002 Indian Chief and a member of the Iron Indian Riders Association, I followed the closing, sale, purchase by Stellican, and subsequent rebirth of Indian Motorcycle closely. I also had the opportunity to ride several 2010 Indians at an open house where I was one of the ride captains.
My personal opinion is that even though you get a motorcycle that is beautiful looking, with great paint, wonderful chrome and top quality leather, you still don't get your money's worth. The engine vibrates through the chassis, particularily over 2900 RPM, options like cruise control, heated seats, heated grips, or even a radio are not available. The turn signals don't even self cancel!
That being said, it's important to understand that Stellican has no outside investors. The owners, Stephen Julius and Steve Heese are the money behind the new Indian. It is their personal and business funds that are invested, so the pressure to succeed it there own - not from any stock holder or capital investment corporation. They have said from the beginning that they are keeping the operation small, and as a result, will be in the black after selling 750 motorcycles. A number that is quite attainable.
As far as saying they are not a "real" Indian, well, is a new Rolls Royce and "real" Rolls Royce? Anyone who follows the automobile industry knows that a few years back BMW purchased the Rolls name, and Audi purchased the Rolls factory and Bentley name. Audi continued to produce Bentleys at the factory, while BMW built a new factory, designed a new car, and now sells them as Rolls Royces? Are they the real thing? No one in the auto industry even questions it.
If your motorcycle is built by the Indian factory, and it says Indian on the Identification plate and the title, well, you got yourself an Indian. Whether other people like it or not.
So, let's all just go out an RIDE!
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| Boy it always amazes me. Someone posts about another bike company and tons of bad mouth posts show up but have someone say they own X brand but are looking at a Victory and everyone says not to worry we don't care what you ride.....
I hope the new owners good luck. Competition is good for the customer.
What I thought was interesting is that an HD dealership was going off brand. It seems like the last few years many of the HD shops had to drop their other lines. Was that something from HD or the dealers were just doing it? Maybe it had something to do if you opened a new place? I know the HD dealer in HI sold all types of bikes but the island is only so big. When Mike's Famous bought our local HD dealer he dropped Suzuki. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 619
Southeast Iowa | What always amazes me is that some people are soooooo sensitive about anything and everything. Just because someone voices his/her opinion does not make it fact. You are free to voice your opinion as well. Yes you are on a site that is probably pro Victory...duh it's called Vision Riders isn't it? No elitist bullshit here just people with differences of opinion. I personally don't care what you ride, it's your choice to ride whatever the hell you want. But just because I respect your right to choose does not mean I don't have an opinion about it.
Yes, I openly admit that I am guilty of being pro Victory! I do bad mouth HD and others from time to time when I think it's justified. But like most of you here I will also bad mouth Victory when they deserve it. I also wish Indian well, but from what I have seen and read they have a long way to go before they will see any of my money. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Chief Waldo, thanks for that insight, it helps me understand more. I think above all I've always been captivated by the looks of an Indian and it is not a Harley is the other appeal to me. I actually entertained myself prior to getting my Vision and before Indian opened any dealerships to find one on ebay. I did some light research and it was enough to continue to pique my interest of finding out more. However, all that I found were well outside of what I was willing to pay for a used bike, even an Indian.
The looks grabs me enough that one day I was going through the small town of Louisa, va past a car repair shop. On one side was two bikes, one an Indian. I pulled in on the otherside curious to look at it since there are not many around. When I went in the shop and asked, one guy just laughed and said, "that's no Indian that one of them Yahama look alikes".
Having only glanced, I was sure it was an Indian and I laughed back and said it was an Indian. The guy then asked if "so and so" (the owner) was there. And they said yes, he's up front and he just mumbled and said that he guessed it was the Indian. The curious thing was the Yammy look a like was right next too it but I didn't even notice what it was.
Another time I pulled up to a light on the straight and a bike pulled up beside me in the turn and it didn't sound like a Harley. I looked over and about fell over because it was an Indian. He looked at my Vision and said he really liked the looks and I told him if I didn't have this (the Vision) I would have that, pointing to the Indian.
It's a shame though that they can't hang on better and make a "rideable" bike that was affordable I'd have one in a heartbeat. I still would like to get an old Indian when I would have that kind of disposable income and fix it up to be able to take a cross country ride.
Edited by varyder 2010-01-01 2:42 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| The Japanese bike was actually a Kawasaki Drifter. "Gilroy" Indian sold Kawasaki limited rights to the Indian "look".
http://image.motorcyclecruiser.com/f/8835765/800s_lg+2002_kawasaki_...
The Chief is just the first model range for Indian. They have plans for additional models. Next up is the Scout. It will have a smaller version of the "Bottlecap" engine, and will be lower priced. If they lower the displacement by reducing the stroke some, it will probably be smoother running as well. They are also looking seriously at an inline 4 cylinder to be their top of the line model.
When I got the Indian, I was surprised by how many people would stop and want to talk about it. The look and magic behind the name are still powerful. I could pull into a parking lot full of Harleys, and people would would be drawn to it. What really amazed me though, is when I got my Vision. I now have even MORE people approach me to talk about it... and I'm amazed at the amount of non-riders that like it. I went to a big event one evening in Connecticut, Middletown Motorcycle Mania. There were over 1,000 bikes there. I was walking around with several of my Indian riding friends. When we got back to my Vision, it was surrounded by people. I had to throw a little jab out there "gee, I don't see that many people looking at the Indians!"
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Cruiser
Posts: 238
SF Bay Area | Chief Waldo - 2009-12-31 5:43 PM
buddahead - 2009-12-31 11:07 AM
The real value of Indian motorcycles is the history, memories, a handful of the pre-1953 bikes and the intellectual property(trademarked logo).
After going BK in 1953, 1999, and 2003, you would thing they would have had enough.
Bummer timing to restart the company for the 4th time as the economy slips... they should have stuck to making T-Shirts and swag, IMO, and let the marque die with dignity.
Cool logo, tho...
Exactly WHEN in 1999 did Indian file bankruptcy? Since that was the year California Motorcycle Corporation started producing Indians after a protracted lawsuit over who had the rights to the name, I've never seen anything in writing anywhere about the Indian name entering bankruptcy that year.
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Oops, mt bad... I meant to type in 1977. Thuckin' fumbs... | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| buddahead - 2010-01-02 1:32 AM
Oops, mt bad... I meant to type in 1977. Thuckin' fumbs...
Ha ha! As if I've never done THAT before! LOL! Type (and ride) on man!
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| I think folks miss the target market. The new Indian isn't aimed at guys who buy a bike to ride as a daily commuter or ride cross country. Hell it isn't even aimed at the HD crowd, it is aimed at those guys who buy customs, BigDogs, IronHorse, etc.... You will find a LOT of similarity between bikes of this design, mainly you FEEL the bike. We've become spoiled and isolated with our modern tours, no vibration, little noise, etc... Thats what we want, so thats what many of the manufacturers have attempted to produce and been successful.
If you have never ridden an Indian, you are missing a cool ride, it really is the Bentley of motorcycles... It is also rightly appropriate to mention HD along with the Indian given their shared history. I'd have been quite surprized to ready any mention of Victory in this article.
For the life of me I do NOT understand why folks seem put off when the Vision isn't the bike writers mention? The Vision is a great machine with many great qualities but it is far too unusual in design to be the model for comparison sake. Hell closest thing to compare to the Vision is the GW and it isn't a V-Twin, lol.....
I wish Indian much success with their venture this time around. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | I'm with Teach on this. When we went out to buy our bikes, we did exactly that. We likely wanted a bike, and we wanted the best bang for buck, performance, style etc.. However there are plenty of people who want a "Harley" or want an "Indian". Price, performance, comfort are not even part of the equation. It's just not what they are looking at. And that's just fine. When we want to find out about performance exhaust and other mods, folks like Lloyd and KevinX will ask about riding style and HP and Torque goals. Ask the typical HD shop about upgrading an exhaust and the first set of questions are about which of the 5 primary "exhaust tones" are you shooting for.
The idea of comparing a Victory, especially a Vision to ANY other bike on the market is like comparing apples and roller-skates. The ONLY thing the Vision has in common with most ANY other bike is that fact that by definition, it is a motorcycle. The Honda Goldwing falls into this same non-comparison category as well. There is only one bike like a GW. Sport bikes, there are many, Eurosports & Dualsports there are many. Similar bikes with different manufacturing and engineering approaches... HD has been copied and imitated so much that it's not unique. There's an actual Harley, and all the copies.. and in that light... at the basic level, strip off the tins and Indian, Harley and a dozen others all pretty much look the same. Take the tins off a Vision, and most people won't believe that what's left actually turns out to be a motorcycle.
So... as I eluded to earlier... the fact that Vision is not listed often in publications, especially for comparison, is just logic. It is unique and by definition defies "comparison." | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Indian will never be a stand alone company until they develope their own engine just like Victory did. The 100" AND 106" SOHC engine in the Victory's today shine as an example of a different but similar engine to the Harley TC 96's. However the "Indian" engines are really just HD evo clones with the carb ( or FI unit) on the wrong (left) side of the round cut 2V evo style heads.............. | |
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