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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Just thinking about the number of posts I've read lately where someone laid their bike down. Now perhaps the terms are just being used loosely but with a number of newer riders on the board I thought it somewhat important to point out laying a bike down is a very bad idea.
Now before someone yells I've been riding since before the first ama mc safety course was introduced (I attended it) where they use to teach laying a bike down as a defensive measure, but tires, bikes and brakes have really evolved since then. It is always recommended that you evade and/or brake during the more recent mc safety courses. They make the recommendation for a couple reasons. First off if you have time to lay the bike down you have time to take other safer action. Secondly once down you have absolutely ZERO control of the bike. Now that might not seem like a big deal losing control, but remember you are straddling a 900lb machine.
So my point isn't to diss on folks who have laid their bike down but rather to suggest that other actions might well be more appropriate. Further if you practice evading and braking when you don't need to use them, they become second nature when you do. For example when out riding and I see a dead critter we'll say laying in my lane suddenly, I utilize an aggressive move to avoid hitting it rather then say a normal avoidance technique. Sure parkinglot drills work, bu when you are travelling at speed and the cage in front of you obscures your view of a potential hazard until they pass over it, an opportunity is provided. Just food for thought.
Something else to consider; in most accidents involving a bike and cage, the bike rider brakes and rides right into the wreck. You can't count on brakes alone, learn to steer clear of trouble.
ps... I do not consider myself a exceptional rider, just an average guy who rides, but I do practice a lot just in case I might need to use it. You can never be too ready
Edited by Teach 2009-11-01 6:07 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 228
| +1 on not being a good idea. Once you and your 900lb. scooter are sliding down the highway on your side (planned or unplanned) you have lost all control of the situation and any hope of regaining control.
I have ridden for 40 years and still practice avoiding obstacles, by steering and/or braking at highway speeds. Your reaction needs to be instinctive in a emergency situation.
Just my 2 cents!!
Ride Safe | |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | +1 also..
My first "course" was back when they taught us how to lay down a bike as well.. right up there with "never use your front brake" and always "lean to steer" Much MUCH has changed. Bottom line... if you have room to lay it down, you had room to avoid it. It's all physics and no amount of skill can change physics.
Also just as an aside.. Have you ever heard "that so'n so but me off and I had to lay it down?" Back in the day, they (the cops) would actually go after the person that cut off the biker... but in the past few years when I have heard this... it was followed by the sad fact that not only was the person who cut the bike off not at fault, but insurance isn't going to pay for the bike you threw down in the middle of the street for obviously no good reason. Now, had there been an impact with the other vehicle... that would be a different story.. but nowadays... as stated above... if you had time to "lay it down" without making impact with the other vehicle, then you had time to maneuver.
And I also agree with "I do not consider myself a exceptional rider, just an average guy who rides, but I do practice a lot just in case I might need to use it. You can never be too ready." Probably one of the most important quotes posted on a motorcycle site.
Thanks
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | That is the key, don't override your skill or safety zone. I'm not sure what happened back in the day, but I've always understood for over 30 years of driving with only 2 accidents in a cage totally unavoidable by me, that is, they hit me while trying to avoid them, that if I crashed while avoiding them and not connecting, it was on me.
As for laying it down, I thought at one time that was the acceptable thing to do, but learned that a lot has changed, now I drive on the total defensive, knowing to that it will be impossible to avoid everything. I think the key is here and what has already been mentioned, know your machine! Practice, and always be diligent when you ride so that you can ride again. If you are newbie to riding, take the safety courses and ride like you are Granny Gums for the first year or so to become totally familiar with your ride. I don't have a problem with the rider that wants to ride slow because they are still getting use to the bike, but I have a major problem with the new guy on the bike that thinks he has been riding all his life and trys to rip through traffic. Sad thing is he doesn't hang around long enough to enjoy many miles, God rest his soul.
Don't override your ability, and that will give you many, many miles and you won't think about how to lay it down, but how to keep from going down. I talked with a guy recently who said he had a bike but it scared him too much and sold it. I told him, "good for you" because he would have eventually got jammed up and lost it eventually. I know another guy who had his bike for about a week, wrecked it and still to this day he doesn't know why he went down, he just knows he was down. His wife forbade him to get it fixed or get another bike. I still see him every day.
Just my two cents on the subject, and hope that any of us who understand our dangers and know that it requires skill to ride, that we encourage one another to WATCH OUT, RIDE LIKE THEY DO NOT SEE YOU, BECAUSE THEY DON'T!
Edited by varyder 2009-11-02 5:08 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | I am here a living proof that laying a bike down is not necessary and that if you pactice your riding skills that you can survive. I have been riding for 39 years and I am not a great rider just very very defensive. Sometime being defensive is not enough but when it is not and something happens pactice riding and doing what comes naturally (hence the pactice) will save your butt.
I was on southbound US-23 just before Ann Arbor and there is a set of large curves in the highway it was rainy and the road wet. A trucker spilled about 5 gallons of Desiel fuel on the road way. Ice is not a slicker than that combination.
I essentially lost control of the bike at is was sideways at 65 MPH in a curve not much traffic thank God. I was looking down the road where I wanted to go an the front of the bike was about 90 degrees off course. I thought about laying the bike down and had about decided to throw it away as I did not want to get tangled up in a bouncing bike as it flipped over. Then all of a sudden thru God's help and my riding pactice the bike started to straighten out and went to the other side finally it hit straight just as I ran out of the slippery patch. I pulled to the side of the road and got off shaking like a leaf is a strong wind. The car that followed me to a stop said he had never seen anything like that and did not want to see it again.
I will tell you that I did not have time to think over the course of action. I did what came naturally and if I had not pacticed riding in rough spots and had not reacted instead of having to think then act I might not be in as good a shape as I am today.
I would like to give the Vision credit for having pulled me thru a bad one but this was some years back and 78 Goldwing full dresser gets the credit.
Pactice riding like your life depends on it because it does. Archie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Arch... MAN! WHAT A RIDE! | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I agree completely and would not imply that laying over a bike is supposed to be a defensive tactic. Thats kinda like a cop throwing their gun at the bad guy. LOL I should have noted that I was going to loose it on the freeway anyway and took the lesser of 2 evils. I KNEW I was going to rear end someone that pulled out in front me. My mistake was over braking to begin with. I breifly regained traction but the rear end was then swinging to the other side. I would not normally resign control to chance, especially knowing that my bike would beccome a $23K+ asphalt grater with me on it. I would rather be lucky than smart. I got pretty lucky. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | bigwill5150 - 2009-11-02 3:08 PM
I agree completely and would not imply that laying over a bike is supposed to be a defensive tactic. Thats kinda like a cop throwing their gun at the bad guy. LOL I should have noted that I was going to loose it on the freeway anyway and took the lesser of 2 evils. I KNEW I was going to rear end someone that pulled out in front me. My mistake was over braking to begin with. I breifly regained traction but the rear end was then swinging to the other side. I would not normally resign control to chance, especially knowing that my bike would beccome a $23K+ asphalt grater with me on it. I would rather be lucky than smart. I got pretty lucky.
If you are in a shoot out and you gun is empty or jammed .Why not throw it at the other guy ? | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | If you are in a shoot out and you gun is empty or jammed .Why not throw it at the other guy ?
Because after you do he's gonna be pi$$ed and use it to smash your skull. LOL
BTW blunt objects never run out of ammo. LOL | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| bigwill, this wasn't directed at you or anyone else my friend. I frequent a couple other forums and have noted a rash of "laid it down" type threads and thought it a good topic to toss out. With an abundance of newer riders or many returning after years witout a bike, this is always a good topic and reminder. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Teach, I knew where you were going, I didn't think it was directed right at me. It's a very good point and a great thread. I've heard those myths about laying the bike over to help stop it and agree that it's total BS. I was just pointing out that I'm by no means a riding guru and I personally got real lucky laying my bike over. Just like most of those case studies my first mistake started blocks before I had any idea that I was going to be in trouble. I should have better evaluated the traffic/weather conditions and parked her for the night. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | I had to lay my other bike down a few years ago and I believe that a little road rash was a whole lot better alternative than a broken neck had I hit the SUV broad side that pulled out in front of me. Now mind you had the road conditions been different I might could have stopped in time. It happened to be raining and the lady made a left turn in front of me with less than 60 feet between us and I was doing 35 mph. I have been over the handlebars before in many a dirt bike accident and it is never fun. But then again hitting dirt is a lot easier on the body then hitting a car. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 447
Cleveland, GA | What we teach in MSF now is that the rubber on your tires has a lot more stopping power than the plastic and steel on the bike and will stop you a lot sooner than if you lay it down. Of course, people often say, "I had to lay it down to keep from hitting them," but really just went down unintentionally. Not always, but often. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 340
Regina Saskatchewan Canada | OK what if you don't have the skills to safely evade and/or brake around trouble, is it better to lay your bike down rather than make things worse for your body?
I agree the last thing one should do is lay down their bike but I also believe that sometimes it's the only option. The best advice here is know your machine, practice and to ride within your abilities.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | While it is true you can pratice. Accidents occur suddenly. The cage cuts you off, the Deer jumps into your path. You will react trying to maintain control the best you can. If your in a turn and there is no guard rail you may throw yourself down to try to avoid going off a cliff. The best bike riders in the world don't get traction while in a free fall. Unless a parachute is part of your safety gear road rash is better than being broken to bits on the rocks below
Edited by Trekwolf164 2009-11-03 10:19 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 447
Cleveland, GA | Agreed - there are exceptions. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Trekwolf, accidents don't really occur suddenly and all can be avoided with a little awareness and precaution (jmo). I've had many deer jump in front of me and many a cage cut me off (remember I'm just an average rider). I'd suggest that if you don't have time to react you are riding beyond your ability and/or too fast for the conditions that exist (not you personally, you as in the rider). I say all accidents are avoidable because if they were not we would call them an "on purpose" instead. Even your fly off the road would indicate either a lack of observation skills (missed some traction condition that existed) or you were riding too fast for your skill level and drove right off the edge.
This is why practice is so important. If you KNOW your own personal ability you are far less likely to experience something painful.
Have a look at the earlier senario; 35 mph, cage turns left across path, 60 feet to vehicle, wet road conditions. The choice was to lay it down rather than brake and impact. I see a couple problems with the scenario. First off the cage didn't just magically appear, the road conditions dictated more caution and 60 feet is a lot of room at 35 mph. Now if all one does is brake when an object appeas in their path, perhaps the coarse taken was the safest. I would suggest manuevering behind the cage as the appropriate response. Having seen the threat as a threat to begin with would have given an advantage. It is the old assume the cage will do the wrong thing scenario. So from "MY" perspective this incident was completely avoidable and clearly didn't require one to lay down the bike, BUT one must work on avoidance drills until they become second nature. We ALL practice emergency braking, but I'd suggest that braking will only DELAY the impact in most scenario's, bikes need to evade to avoid the impact.
Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting to tell someone what they did was wrong, I wasn't there and hindsight is 20/20. What I'm saying is if we ride smarter, prepare for the threats that exist and train ourselves to react appropriately to changing conditions we will encounter, we can avoid these mishaps. However if we play the blame game aka "the cage pulled in front of me" all we do is guarantee more get offs. The old saying "there are two kinds of riders" is only a reality if we decide to continue the practices that have led to that saying.
Sorry I don't mean to preach, I've just seen far to many avoidable wrecks. Bottom line is ride as safe as possible....... T | |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | Maybe I should have listed all the conditions of the accident, 3-lane intersection, me 2 car lengths behind a white panel van, only going 35 in a 45 mph zone due to rainy conditions and the driver of the SUV "not" seeing me behind the van and turning left at a red light that is left turn only on the arrow. 60 feet maybe overstating it. Heck I didn't get out there and measure it. Now, I can think of a whole lot of things that I probably could have done to avoid the accident, best being maybe I shouldn't have been riding that day. NOT! Face it, there are going to be times when we can't avoid all accidents. PERIOD. The best we can do is make a judgement call we can live with. Wearing good protective equipment being one of them. Otherwise, why would they make protective equipment if we could avoid all accidents. I tried to brake and realized I wasn't going to be able to stop and not broad-side the SUV so I chose to turn the handlebars and let it slide out from under me and the bike hit the SUV. And all I got was a little road rash and about 2 weeks downtime on my bike. And as far manuvering behind the vehicle, I want to see how many times you get lucky with that one on a 4-lane with 2 lanes of traffic coming at you and your on the inside lane. I've personally seen this type of accident and the poor rider had nowhere to go. He broad-sided the car and was pronounced dead at the seen. He had almost no reaction time to even try to stop so how was that avoidable?
Edited by atvtinker 2009-11-03 7:12 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| atvtinker, well you could have listed all the conditions of your accident, but by doing so you simply assure us the accident was avoidable. I don't want to get into a back and forth, nor second guess your actions. You being there and being the only one who could reassess what occured, makes you the only person who can make a final conclusion of how you might have best dealt with the situation. Maybe you did the right thing? Only you can determine that.
Here is what I like to do; I like to evaluate get offs and try to put them into perspective. Sure we could all blame this person or that but blame won't make us safer. So if I was evaluating your get off I'd have to say you were following to closely for the intersection, failed to observe the cages actions soon enough and reacted to th scenario unfolding before you instead of being proactive (these are not insults because we aren't assigning blame). So given those findings on my part how would "I" avoid a similar situation? I'd probably make sure to open more space between me and panel vans in the future so I could be better seen. Make good eye contact with cross traffic drivers and get on the binders at the first sign of movement. Perhaps just slowing more at the cross section? Remember I don't assign blame, I simply review get offs to evaluate how "I" might avoid a similar situation. The way I see it if we don't learn from the ones we walk away from, well worse could occur.
Please don't think I'm dissing on you, I'm not. Like I said I feel compelled to evaluate these things for the lessons that we can learn and it could just as easily be my get off being evaluated. Thanks for sharing your scenario and discussing it here. Doing so may just well keep me or someone else from a similar situation. At the least it is something readers here will think about. Good chatting with you.... T | |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | I didn"t take it as dissing me for my actions. I was just stating that there times when we have to make a different judgement than would be the norm for a normal situation. They always say hindsight is 20/20 and someone will always say they could have done it differently. It's just that there will always be critics of everyone's situation and that sometimes it's just better to give advice than always critque' them. Just ranting because I see these kind of threads all the time. Sorry if I offended you on what you had to say. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I will say accidents are always avoidable, on somebodies part. Negligence on someone else part does not make the accident avoidable by my actions, or non-action. The other person, had they not been negligent the accident would have been avoidable. But, from my perspective, all accidents are not avoidable, there are way too many factors involved to say that my actions could have avoided the accident. Yeah, I could not have even left the house today and just maybe nothing would happen.
I'm just a cherry novice in riding compared to most that post on here, so I try to pay attention to accidents to see what I can do to avoid them. I have been in few close brushes in my life and I have never had a chargeable accident on my record.
There was an article with pictures about a guy and his wife riding through the back roads up north somewhere. Suddenly, the bike became very erratic and he was able to keep the bike up until he stopped. While traveling about 50 or 60mph if I recall, a deer had come from the side, totally unseen by pilot or pillion and became wedge between the front forks and frame of the bike. The momentum dragged the deer several bloody feet. When they stopped and jumped off the bike they were astonished at what just occurred. Search for yourself, there is a whole article with pictures on the event that happened about two years ago. Certainly his skill to keep his sense about him and keep the bike upright by "riding it out" kept both rider and pillion unharmed but ended up with a totaled bike and dead and mangled deer.
Another gentleman who was killed about a year ago was a motorcycle safety speaker and traveled the country speaking at safety events. Just days before he was killed he was speaking to a friend and told him that he could handle the idiots on the highway as they can be predictable if you know what you are looking for. He went on to say, not so with deer as they never let you know what they are going to do next. On the way home, he had a close call with a deer, that changed its mind and took him out.
I could rattle on about tires coming off of trucks, blowouts that are totally unexpected, unseen objects or conditions, chemicals on the road at unexpected places and so on. But again, maybe for you to do everything right you can avoid a lot of accidents and keep them from happening, but because you do not control the situation, you may find yourself in a unavoideable situation even after you have done everything right. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 141
| atvtinker - 2009-11-02 8:42 PM
I had to lay my other bike down a few years ago and I believe that a little road rash was a whole lot better alternative than a broken neck had I hit the SUV broad side that pulled out in front of me. Now mind you had the road conditions been different I might could have stopped in time. It happened to be raining and the lady made a left turn in front of me with less than 60 feet between us and I was doing 35 mph. I have been over the handlebars before in many a dirt bike accident and it is never fun. But then again hitting dirt is a lot easier on the body then hitting a car.
You can stop faster by braking and riding the bike than by the bike sliding along asphalt. I hate to say it, but you made the wrong move. This is an excellent thread, as many people are unaware that going down on the bike is almost never the better option. If you are going to hit something, slow down as much as you can and then hit it. When you are sliding, you are losing two very valuable things:
Decreased speed
Control
That is to say, no matter how you try to argue it, a motorcycle stops faster if you are riding it than if you are sliding on it....
In your scenario, you were going to hit a car that turned in front of you. Well, if you did not hit it sliding, then you certainly would not have hit it braking while in control of the bike. Think about that, let it sink in, then make the safer decision next time. Glad you are ok....
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Cruiser
Posts: 141
| Crawford - 2009-11-03 8:34 AM
OK what if you don't have the skills to safely evade and/or brake around trouble, is it better to lay your bike down rather than make things worse for your body?
No. trying to slow down is always better than sliding. Sliding on metal and plastic is worthless....If you are unable to go around something, you are going to hit it. If you are going to hit something, hit it as slowly as possible. Once your rubber leaves the pavement, you are going faster than if it stayed....
And ultimately, if you lack the skills to evade or brake around trouble, you have no business riding.....My $.02
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Cruiser
Posts: 141
| Trekwolf164 - 2009-11-03 10:16 AM
If your in a turn and there is no guard rail you may throw yourself down to try to avoid going off a cliff.
Throwing yourself down will make you go further than staying in control of a braking bike...In your scenario, a rider that brakes then crashes will have a better chance of staying off the cliff than a person sliding along with no rubber slowing him down. The only reason to lay down would be to avoid a collision. Example, going under a semi truck trailer that has adequate clearance. A road sign that has adequate underneath clearance. Other than that, you are merely going faster when you impact than if you had ridden it out and slowed the bike before impact...
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Cruiser
Posts: 141
| atvtinker - 2009-11-03 6:49 PM
I tried to brake and realized I wasn't going to be able to stop and not broad-side the SUV so I chose to turn the handlebars and let it slide out from under me and the bike hit the SUV.
If you didn't hit the suv with your body, you certainly would not have hit it if you stayed on the bike. The bike will stop faster than your body. This is not a guess, it is a mathematical proven certainty. And that is why any advanced course on riding will teach you to never go down intentionally unless you are going "under" something you will definately be hitting...
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | VaLongdistanceryder, I'm just unsure why you call yourself a novice in this department. When there are many who haven't ridden as far as you. Even though ownership they have you beat on. I got a buddy that has 16,000 miles on his 2001 HD softail Classic, yet he got it in 2004 and has put 2000 miles on it since. Would I rather talk to him about riding or you. You have had your bike much less in time, but exponentially more miles, by a long shot. Hopefully, you would know something over the other guy.
I almost got into a head on collision with a oncoming car coming into my lane trying to pass around 10 cars and get up to where the turn lane started for him. I missed him by mere inches, with nowhere to go. Heavy on the brakes and the horn. I was doing about 50 and he was accelerating. I had enough time to even think if I wanted to keep my hand on the horn due to the airbag might deploy. Then, even more time to figure out if I wanted to continue on and do the head on or just clip him. I got the make on the car and the area of town I was in and decided I might have to pay for the damages, due to they wouldn't have insurance. Don't forget the guy getting bigger in the rear view. Had I been able to know whether the person was by themselves, I might have gone ahead and seen how well a Ford takes a hit.
Has anybody seen the in car cameras where they videotape the collisions inside the car of an actual human driving off the road into some immovable object. It was years ago, that I saw this. There were multiple videos and from what I understand it was the way Mercedes did their crash testing. Quite unusual but very interesting. I don't think he had a chance to avoid the accident though. | |
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Laying a bike down?