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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | Ran regular last tank as suggested by a few to help clean out the bike. The bike does not ping, at least with the LLoyds intake plate and fuel controller. If I get no pinging is there any reson to use high test? Has anybody done this enough to know that it will start to ping. I know regularhas potential to get better fuel milage if high test is not needed to prevent detonation. Any thoughts?
Walt |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | walt - i've been running regular for the last two tanks and using an addative. the ping has grown less. I'm not sure if I'm staying with it, but the gas mileage seems to be slightly, ever so slightly improved. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I'm going to start running mid-grade next fill up and then move down to regular if that helps. I've been experiencing some popping consistent with every tank fill until I get down to around 1/2 to 1/3 tank and less. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 235
Kincardine, Ontario, Canada | I don't understand the reason behind running regular in a bike designed for premium.
Premium fuels generally have higher detergents and additives along with a slower burn rate to reduce pinging. I can understand better mileage as the ignition system would retard the timing further while using regular to reduce the ping that it senses that you can't hear.
Or have I missed something here?
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New Bohemia, VA | it's kevinx's fault |
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Cruiser
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L.I., N.Y. | In N.Y. they run 10 percent ethanol and no matter what grade or brand that I've used, depending on time of year and outside temp. my ride gets between 23 mpg to 37 mpg. In other places they may have other types of blended gas find what works best and use it and enjoy. |
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | I have been running 89 for the last 600 miles and the bike runs better then on 91 and i am getting about 1 extra mpg |
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Tourer
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Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I have no problem running high test but I do not believe that just because it is higher octane do not believe it is better or has higher quality additives. I will not risk pinging though, and so far no ping. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 38
manitoba canada | if there is no pinging the keep using it ,the bike will run better ,have more power better milage ,victory only says to use prem. to save there ass. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 256
| Ok, someone try to tell me how running regular is better than running premium if premium is what it is tuned for? I am an Engineer so I know a little about this stuff. But don't know the particulars of these bikes yet. Are you saying it is not tuned for premium, then we have a problem of course. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | OK maybe I missed something but I asked the shop and they told me that running a type of gas was a personell choice and that Victory recommended priemum due to conditions and altitudes that the bike maybe run at this is a one size fits all attitude that drive me crazy. I live in Michigan and gas here is out of sight for price so I put in regular and found little if any difference I have no ping no increase or decrease in power or mileage and I have more money in my pocket so I have run regular for the last 6000 miles without any issues. Tell me what I have done wrong?? Archie |
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New Bohemia, VA | i'm experimenting off of someone else's suggestion. since running, my pinging has subsided and i find no performance issues. it is also holding better at the mpg than running premium. i'm waiting for the counter arguement toward running regular other than the tuning concern. if it will some how disenigrate my pistons over time, i'll go back to premium, otherwise, i think i'll stay here a little while longer. |
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Cruiser
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| Again, not familiar with this bike yet, in fact mine isn't even going to be delivered to me for a couple of weeks. But running a lower octane rating gas is very harmful in auto's tuned/timed for a higher octane rating. I mean, octane rating is the ability of the gas to be compressed without detonating in short hand. So premium gas can take more compression before detonation. So if the engine is tuned to compress so much and then ignite, and you have regular gas in the gas will detonate too early and you will not have a full combustion. So basically premium is not better, just different and you should run what it is tuned for. What I don't know is what is this bike tuned for. I would assume premium since that is what it calls for. |
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Cruiser
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Kincardine, Ontario, Canada | Prime Power - 2009-08-30 7:25 AM
Again, not familiar with this bike yet, in fact mine isn't even going to be delivered to me for a couple of weeks. But running a lower octane rating gas is very harmful in auto's tuned/timed for a higher octane rating. I mean, octane rating is the ability of the gas to be compressed without detonating in short hand. So premium gas can take more compression before detonation. So if the engine is tuned to compress so much and then ignite, and you have regular gas in the gas will detonate too early and you will not have a full combustion. So basically premium is not better, just different and you should run what it is tuned for. What I don't know is what is this bike tuned for. I would assume premium since that is what it calls for.
Agreed
But we all have choice in life, I'm staying with premium |
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Memphis | Premium for me. Not sure I could have out run an R1 on regular. That Sunoco 93 in New England is some really nice stuff. My bike never ran stronger than when I was up there last fall. |
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New Bohemia, VA | well, i think my experiment is over. i'm on my third tank of regular, have ran carbon cleaner through and still get knock on load. it may work well in some parts of the country, but I don't live there. oh, and the gas mileage increase is from me not getting on the throttle as much to keep it off the ping. this episode of myth busters is over for me. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 154
Cabot Arkansas | I read an article in a performance bass boat magazine once where they bought premium gas from several different name brand stations and had it analyized said in 9 out 10 tests they were getting regular gas instead of premium  |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | SongFan - 2009-08-30 9:34 AM
Premium for me. Not sure I could have out run an R1 on regular. That Sunoco 93 in New England is some really nice stuff. My bike never ran stronger than when I was up there last fall.
Premium DOES NOT INCREASE PERFORMANCE PERIOD. Your R1 run in was situation, and not power.
The air in New England prolly had more to do with the way your bike ran then anything else. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2009-08-30 12:14 PM
well, i think my experiment is over. i'm on my third tank of regular, have ran carbon cleaner through and still get knock on load. it may work well in some parts of the country, but I don't live there. oh, and the gas mileage increase is from me not getting on the throttle as much to keep it off the ping. this episode of myth busters is over for me.
It's simple science, and not myth. The air in your part of the country may not be as agreeable as other parts. Try moving to a mid grade fuel before you throw the extra money, and unburnt hydrocarbons at your engine with premium. Engines make peak power when cumbustion temps are right on the edge of preignition |
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New Bohemia, VA | maybe it don't increace performance but it sure does eliminate the load knock. |
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Memphis | Kevin, Man, that R1 story really hit a nerve. Just having fun with it. There is definitely a difference with ethanol. The 93 octane around here does not compare with how the bike felt with the Sunoco. I got nearly 4mpg better up north and it just ran stronger and felt better every day I was up there. As soon as I got back into VA/NC/TN again I could feel the difference. I've never had a problem with my bike but that Sunoco is some good stuff. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2009-08-30 1:02 PM
maybe it don't increace performance but it sure does eliminate the load knock.
That would be why I said to try mid grade in your case. |
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Cruiser
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| Premium itself does not increase performance if it is tuned/timed for regular. Then no. But if it is tuned/timed for premium of course it will increase performance. I guess not really increase, but give you what you should have where regular would detract from performance. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | SongFan - 2009-08-30 1:33 PM
The 93 octane around here does not compare with how the bike felt with the Sunoco. I got nearly 4mpg better up north and it just ran stronger and felt better every day I was up there. As soon as I got back into VA/NC/TN again I could feel the difference. I've never had a problem with my bike but that Sunoco is some good stuff.
Now that is a real point. Corn gas while having the same effect on octane is nowhere near as efficiant in the cumbustion process. On average most people loose 10% MPG with corn, and since it takes that much more fuel to work on cruise; the power will drop. Sunoco here in Florida is cut with Corn. Man I miss good old MBTE
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Prime Power - 2009-08-30 1:36 PM
Premium itself does not increase performance if it is tuned/timed for regular. Then no. But if it is tuned/timed for premium of course it will increase performance. I guess not really increase, but give you what you should have where regular would detract from performance.
It will not detract from performance, but may give yoyu drivability concerns like the dreaded ping. However using a higher octane WILL detract. Peak performance lives on the edge |
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Cruiser
Posts: 256
| I don't know where you get that. If it calls for 91 octane and you run 87 it will predetonate and there will be power losses and damage can be done. Running what it is tuned for will not detract from performance. Where do you come up with this? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 732
Western WA | I switched to the lower octane to cure a soot/fouling issue with my plugs.
If it ain't broke, and you're happy, don't fix it.
I think I've found that I need to run 1 tank of mid (89) to 3 tanks of low (87). The experiment continues.
For now the bikes out of commission until they replace an ignition coil. |
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New Bohemia, VA | That's why I'm going back to premium. Experiment done! |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Prime Power - 2009-08-30 2:18 PM
I don't know where you get that. If it calls for 91 octane and you run 87 it will predetonate and there will be power losses and damage can be done. Running what it is tuned for will not detract from performance. Where do you come up with this?
It is not tuned for 91. That number is a fail safe that takes into account extreme temps[100+], and very dense air. If the bikes were tuned for it in say Washington state. You could not even ride it in Arizona. For most people that never see those temps the higher octane reduces overall performance. I have several customer here in Florida that have run 87-89 since day one with no pinging issues. They have not coked up their valves, or the tops of the pistons, and thus they have not created the hot spots that cause pinging. I myself ran 89 for the whole time my bike had the stock 9.8:1 ratio, and only bumped to premium when I went to 11.0. Now with 11.0 I NEED to run the increased octane.
The fuel companies spent a lot of time, and money lying to the American public about what octane is, and what it does. Back in the early 90's the FTC finally stopped them from all of the false advertising. They still try, and from what I usually see in this type of thread; do pull the wool over peoples eyes. |
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Cruiser
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| That makes since and I stated I am not familiar with this bike yet. I agree there is a lot of false information and people using the wrong type of gas. 91 when it doesnt call for it and vice versa. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 256
| I just moved to Virginia, temps a little lower than Florida and a little lower humidity. Might go 89 myself. I don't see how the CLFI system doesn't compensate though for different climates? |
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Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Prime Power - 2009-08-30 3:30 PM
I just moved to Virginia, temps a little lower than Florida and a little lower humidity. Might go 89 myself. I don't see how the CLFI system doesn't compensate though for different climates?
No knock sensor; so they run a fixed timing curve.Not the best curve; the curve that has the best comprimise. No active BARO sensor so the correction for that is only on start up. Narrow band o2 so the correction for fuel is hit, or miss in a big zone. At best the FI system used on these bikes is still below par when compared to the systems used by auto makers in the EARLY 80's. With all the technology available it boggles my mind that we have such garbage systems to work with. Had Vic used the available tech these bikes would EASILY make 10% better power, and mileage; with many fewer drivability issues |
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Cruiser
Posts: 256
| Im coming to the vision from a bmw lt so night and day in a lot of aspects. good info. thanks |
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I would like to add again that I have the VFC III fuel controler so I am not running the stock lean fuel ratio's. Techlusion who builds the box for Lloyd's also make's one for the BMW RT's but the Motronic system on the K model BMW bike's is similar to there cars and a tad more advanced than the system on the Victory. KevinX is right about the build of the electronics but as far as I can see they are durable and with separate throttle bodys for each cyl a far step above H-D as far as performance. It would be nice to access the programing though but ar far as how the bike run with minimal tinkering it is probably better to work around what we have. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1158
Richmond, Virginia | Ive only run both my Victory's with mid grade, never high grade, consequently my dealer loves borrowing my Vision to drive. He states that it is the smoothest Vision he has ever driven and sold. Has got to do with mid grade and Amsoil full synthetic oil. 100% satisfied no noise, pings, dings, rattles, cries, belches or farts. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | This is NOT an oil thread. Please do not ruin a good discussion |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Memphis,Tn. | Hmmm. No knock sensor on an engine with a low tech fuel system.
I'll continue to use a TOP TIER rated gasoline. Premium only. Too many variables in weather and traffic. I don't need the added mental calculations while riding of cylinder temps, preignition, detonation, cylinder pressure, Reid vapor pressure, deposit control, alcohol percentage or if my gas cap is leaking. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | TopFuel - 2009-08-30 8:32 PM
Hmmm. No knock sensor on an engine with a low tech fuel system.
I'll continue to use a TOP TIER rated gasoline. Premium only. Too many variables in weather and traffic. I don't need the added mental calculations while riding of cylinder temps, preignition, detonation, cylinder pressure, Reid vapor pressure, deposit control, alcohol percentage or if my gas cap is leaking.
+1 |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | During my ride through Colorado this summer my Vision did not want to idle very well on the high octane gas. It even died once at a stop sign. It ran fine except at idle. By chance I had to use a low octane gas, I think 85, on that tank full the bike idled fine. So I continued to use lower octane gas while at high altitudes. You guys in Colorado, do you see that with your Visions? |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | never mind
Edited by kevinx 2009-08-30 7:59 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 44
Salt lake city Ut. | statement #1 Premium DOES NOT INCREASE PERFORMANCE PERIOD. Your R1 run in was situation, and not power
Statement#2It will not detract from performance, but may give yoyu drivability concerns like the dreaded ping. However using a higher octane WILL detract. Peak performance lives on the edge
Qouted (kevix)
I am sorry to say but put premium fuel in your victory 106 period as you all know you can get 93 octane in some of your states out here in the west we are lucky to see 91 octane in has to do with air density and in part altitude. Part of the detonation issue and the cooling effect of the fuel is the octane # Victory built a great motor for us to enjoy superior performance put the best pump gas you can in your Vision tour bike and enjoy the ride. If you are building a race bike see lloyd or come out to the salt flats and learn from the people who have paid the price of guessing.
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Side Car - 2009-08-30 9:20 PM
statement #1 Premium DOES NOT INCREASE PERFORMANCE PERIOD. Your R1 run in was situation, and not power
Statement#2It will not detract from performance, but may give yoyu drivability concerns like the dreaded ping. However using a higher octane WILL detract. Peak performance lives on the edge
Qouted (kevix)
I am sorry to say but put premium fuel in your victory 106 period as you all know you can get 93 octane in some of your states out here in the west we are lucky to see 91 octane in has to do with air density and in part altitude. Part of the detonation issue and the cooling effect of the fuel is the octane # Victory built a great motor for us to enjoy superior performance put the best pump gas you can in your Vision tour bike and enjoy the ride. If you are building a race bike see lloyd or come out to the salt flats and learn from the people who have paid the price of guessing.
Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts. |
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Puddle Jumper
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Salt lake city Ut. | are you saying that the o2 sensor will not tell the ecm to add fuel if the mixture burns lean.
ie higher octane slower burn cooler o2 /egt temps |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 44
Salt lake city Ut. | Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts
air density vrs compression ratio has everything to do with octane and its cooling effect.
Atltitude almost allways means less air density ie lower octane premium pump gas in availible higher altitude areas. ??? |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | here's what i've learned:
1. run premium gas in my Bentley
2. if I got to parts of the country where premium is NOT available, run the highest they sell
simple for me...now I can get back to riding...  |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Side Car - 2009-08-30 10:37 PM
are you saying that the o2 sensor will not tell the ecm to add fuel if the mixture burns lean.
ie higher octane slower burn cooler o2 /egt temps
No that is not what I am saying. You are confusing mixture with octane. A leaner mixture DOES effect combustion temp, and CAN increase the need for a higher octane. However as stated earlier the octane requirement stated by Vic is in a worst possible scenario.
You also might want to do a little reading on the subject, and you will find that octane does not change the burn rate. It raises the point at which a fuel will spontaneously ignite |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Side Car - 2009-08-30 10:53 PM
Octane does not cool the combustion process. You are AMOST right about detonation since octane[simply stated] tells of a fuels ability to RESIST combustion. and it is a matter of additives, not air density, or altitude that determine the final number. I am not guessing; I am stating simple facts
air density vrs compression ratio has everything to do with octane and its cooling effect.
Atltitude almost allways means less air density ie lower octane premium pump gas in availible higher altitude areas. ???
That is not what you said. You stated that the octane was lowered by environment. Not that the NEED was lowered by environment...To which I agree. Again however you are still confusing mixture with volatility as to octanes effect on cyl temps. Unless of course you have to much octane. Then the incomplete combustion will lower temps, and engine performance |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | the life of a forum is debate but it is also a place where half truths, heresay and facts get intermingled. That for the most part causes confusion. I try to keep my one on one tech questions in personal conversation with a face to face tech. This has always worked for me and being mechanically declined and inept, though I've made a living at it for over 30 years, I look at the individual circumstance and resist making blanket statements to unwaring audiences.
inevitably someone will take something out of context and ruin their machine because of what I stated above. As a word of caution to any reader, lurker or otherwise, make sure any decision that you make is based off of hard evidence and not something you read in cyperspace.
this has been a free public service announcement... ride often, ride safe.
Edited by varyder 2009-08-31 7:15 AM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2009-08-31 7:14 AM
the life of a forum is debate but it is also a place where half truths, heresay and facts get intermingled. That for the most part causes confusion. I try to keep my one on one tech questions in personal conversation with a face to face tech. This has always worked for me and being mechanically declined and inept, though I've made a living at it for over 30 years, I look at the individual circumstance and resist making blanket statements to unwaring audiences.
inevitably someone will take something out of context and ruin their machine because of what I stated above. As a word of caution to any reader, lurker or otherwise, make sure any decision that you make is based off of hard evidence and not something you read in cyperspace.
this has been a free public service announcement... ride often, ride safe.
All of my comments can easily be substantiated with just a little research on the part of my reader.
I do not deal in hearsay, or half truths. I deal in facts, and personal experience. I have been a professional mechanic for over 25 years, and have had continuing education the entire time. I have raced, and built winning racing machines for numerous types of competitions. I research anything that interest me with a voracious appetite |
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Cruiser
Posts: 212
Tavares, Fl | Check out this site for a simple straight forward explaination of regular vs premium.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2565/whats-the-difference-... |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | rlreed - 2009-08-31 8:17 AM
Check out this site for a simple straight forward explaination of regular vs premium.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2565/whats-the-difference-...
Good read, but in a Victory we need to bear in mind that the motor does not have a knock sensor. So if does not have the ability to retard timing for pinging situations. Meaning if the motor is not pinging then you have plenty of octane.
Also disagree with the slower burning as an oversimplified statement of how octane works. It is slower to ignigte, but has the same burn rate
Edited by kevinx 2009-08-31 8:28 AM
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New Bohemia, VA | kevinx - 2009-08-31 8:53 AM
All of my comments can easily be substantiated with just a little research on the part of my reader.
I do not deal in hearsay, or half truths. I deal in facts, and personal experience. I have been a professional mechanic for over 25 years, and have had continuing education the entire time. I have raced, and built winning racing machines for numerous types of competitions. I research anything that interest me with a voracious appetite
kevinx don't take my comment a personal knock on you, but reading any thread here on any topic or other forum only confuses the reader. one says this, and the other says that, and then someone post some article that makes sense to some but is total bunk to others. The thread lives on. I would like to call you on the phone and talk one on one with you than to read a post here that is often refuted, and that is not a lick on you, it happens to anybody.
That is why most techs will refrain from even going to a forum. That is my point and nothing more...
admittedly I make comments to keep the fire burning. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Memphis,Tn. | "That is why most techs will refrain from even going to a forum."
No joke.
Edited by TopFuel 2009-08-31 1:31 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | well - I went on with my "experience" and ran the bike down to empty and put in "mid-grade" (89) Octane. The knocking subsided some and I still had an occasional pop. I used some carbon cleaner when using the lower octane (87) and it would run better with the additive. I did about 3 tanks on 87, and a half a tank on 89. When my bike did something it has not done since my 45,000 service I decided enough of listening to voodoo mechanics and went immediatley to the station, topped it off with 93 and put in an octane booster. So, what did it do? Stalled! just like the old days. Of course this was my experiment and I did it on my own accord, so if I screwed up my motor with my experiment it is my fault. But unless I cannot get 93, that is all I'm putting in it for now on. Using the 89 octane it still knocked and pinged but not as bad - so for my bike it is "tuned" for the 93 or higher octane.
Just thought I'd do a follow up on this in case some of you are thinking of going to a lower octane. for those folks that have no problems with the lower octane, that's great.
Edited by varyder 2009-09-04 4:29 AM
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| I fill up with what the manufacturer recommends in all my vehicles. They run fine and last many miles. If 20 cents a gallon is going to blow your budget maybe you should have bought something else? I don't know all those fancy terms and math equations, I just know what works best in my vehicles.
Let's ride..... |
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New Bohemia, VA | RedRider - 2009-09-04 9:41 AM
I fill up with what the manufacturer recommends in all my vehicles. They run fine and last many miles. If 20 cents a gallon is going to blow your budget maybe you should have bought something else? I don't know all those fancy terms and math equations, I just know what works best in my vehicles.
Let's ride.....
RR I know your comment was a general statement, but I don't worry about saving 20 cents, my "experiment" didn't even have that in the equation. it was based off the assessment by some that 93 octane is a CYA figure and that our bikes are able to run a lower octane. I've never explored that option ever in the life of any of my bikes, always running premium. But I took the plunge and found out the it was a bad expedition.
I agree, and convinced that the number in the book is there for a reason and that forums are prone to spread bad info.
My experiment was simple: Use premium, runs great, use regular, have problems. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 215
Boydsville, AR United States | The powers that be want to add another 5% corn, and REQUIRE it here in ND on all grades. The corn does'nt have the same BTU content as streight gas. Yes it will help detonation, but mileage will suffer under load. It is simple math. BTU acan be transferes to work, or HP. It takes HP to move yopu down the highway. My work truck (9600 lbs or so) gets suckey mileage on corn. My car hardley notices it, and my Vic looses 3 to 5 MPG. Soooo..... For all it's worth, that's all I've got to say about that! |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2009-09-04 4:28 AM
well - I went on with my "experience" and ran the bike down to empty and put in "mid-grade" (89) Octane. The knocking subsided some and I still had an occasional pop. I used some carbon cleaner when using the lower octane (87) and it would run better with the additive. I did about 3 tanks on 87, and a half a tank on 89. When my bike did something it has not done since my 45,000 service I decided enough of listening to voodoo mechanics and went immediatley to the station, topped it off with 93 and put in an octane booster. So, what did it do? Stalled! just like the old days. Of course this was my experiment and I did it on my own accord, so if I screwed up my motor with my experiment it is my fault. But unless I cannot get 93, that is all I'm putting in it for now on. Using the 89 octane it still knocked and pinged but not as bad - so for my bike it is "tuned" for the 93 or higher octane.
Just thought I'd do a follow up on this in case some of you are thinking of going to a lower octane. for those folks that have no problems with the lower octane, that's great.
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Gentlemen I've solved the problem of what gasoline to use.  http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadtests/neander_1400_turbo_diese... Now convince Victory to use that engine, but I'm sure down the road someone will try to tell us that fuel oil works better than diesel, or Sunoco's diesel is better than Flying J's or Texaco's. All fun intended gentlemen  also found this. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/02/25/thunder-star-1200-dies... with mpg to boot. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/02/26/150mpg-motorcycle/
Edited by slowryder 2009-09-06 6:51 AM
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running regular gas