ScoreBo - 2009-08-26 3:39 PM ElroyJ - 2009-08-26 10:01 AM I too am curious about a power/amp for the bike...any suggestions? Only one I know of is from Arlen Ness and it is only one amp and two speakers, not four speakers: http://www.arlenness.com/c-190-stereo-upgrade-kit.aspx

For more detailed information on this set from Arlen, go to http://hawg-wired.com/product_info.php?products_id=77

Hawg Wired makes the system for Arlen

I heard the Alpine speakers on a Vision my dealer had.  They sounded nice, but I didn't play with them enough to know if the stock radio could drive them to very loud volumes (e.g. over loud non-stock pipes).

I installed a Biketronics 180 WPC UcD amp in the tour pack.  It is supposed to be stable down to 1 Ohm.  I am running 2 sets of 4 Ohm speakers off of it so it is pulling a 2 Ohm load.  At 2 Ohms, it should be putting out over 300 WPC.  If I don't watch it, I can easily overrun the Vision's 50 Amp charging system.  I put the amp's enable line on a switch so I can shut off the amp if necessary.  I can year the fronts and my wife can easily hear the rears at 90+ MPH.  Before, she said she could never hear the rear speakers.

I also installed the Hertz High Energy speakers that BikeTronics sells.  They can put out a lot of clear sound, but you need to cut off the low end so you do not distort the 5.25" drivers.  The BikeTronics amps put out full range and do not have a built in high-pass filter like the Arc amp does.  Being such, you need to make sure you are able to block the low signals going to the drivers.

Too bad Victory didn't design the bike for 6.5" speakers.  You would get a lot better bass, and have 150+% more cone area for better power handling and better upgrade options.

Sincerely,

Tim

Read this link.  A member added a pair of  Infinity Kappa 10.9t tweeters (2 ohm) and the associated crossovers to his J&M speakers.

http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4163&posts=13&mid=42152&highlight=infinity&highlightmode=1&action=search#M42152

Also, if you get a stable 2-channel amp, you could run 4 speakers off of it, but you would lose the front-back balance.  I am running that way and both rider and passenger are satisifed with the balance setting.  You could always put a resistor in line to attenuate the front or back if you like.

HTH,

Tim

The Alpine SPS-500 speakers are a drop-in replacement, reusing the OEM hex bolts and fitting within the OEM rubber speaker surrounds.

However, installation of ANY speaker requires one to remove the dash bezel, rear view mirror, and speaker grill plate (see pic below) - in order to gain access to the speaker itself.

speaker.JPG (6KB - 17 downloads)

There is nothing needed for waterproofing; as I stated earlier, they are made with silicone and polypropoline cones - thus, they can be considered mostly "marine grade" (their grills don't have the UV resistance, nor are their bodies surrounded by plastic covers to protect from harsh chemicals/salt spray). 

 Also, being coaxial, they already have a directional 3/4" tweeter sitting over the woofer - so there is no need to have to separately add a set of tweeters.

5.25" 2-way speakers (pair)
Polypropylene-mica woofer cone
Air-injected rubber surround
3/4" pivoting silk dome tweeter
Power range: 2-55 watts RMS (170 watts peak power)
Frequency response: 80-22,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Top-mount depth: 2"

I'm in no way affiliated with Alpine - just a happy customer. 

speaker-face.jpg (18KB - 14 downloads)

BigWill5150,

I think you may have your numbers backwards.  The lower the impendence of the speaker, the more current it pulls through the amp, thus causing it to get hotter and possibly burning it out.  Being such, a 4Ohm speaker draws less current than a 2Ohm speaker does at the same volume setting (not measured SPL).  If an amp can handle a 2Ohm load, it can handle a 4Ohm or 8Ohm load.

If you notice, most amps are rated at 8Ohms, fewer have ratings for (8 and 4), fewer still for (8, 4 and 2) and very few are stable down to a 1Ohm load (or less).  Also, the beefier the amp (without marketing hype), will state doubling of power with each halfing of the impendence (e.g. 350wpc/8Ohms, 700wpc/4Ohms, 1,400wpc/2Ohms - e.g. Mark Levinson #336), but most amps are not built this well and will not double its output with each respective halving.

Also, I believe the stock Victory Vision speakers are in the neighborhood of 4Ohms, not 2 Ohms.  When I measured mine before upgrading the stereo, they were measuring @ 3.5Ohms.

Tim

BigWill5150,

Please note that I mentioned "at the same volume setting".? I was not advocating running an amp at 75-100%.? I agree that running any amp at 75-100% all of the time (or even part of the time) will damage it (and the speakers) quicker (as well as driving it into clipping).? Quicker still if you use a lower resistence speaker because you will be making it work more than 100% of its original intended output.? I never run my amps more than 50%, if I do, I believe I need a larger amp.?

One thing that was not mentioned so far is the efficiency of a speaker which also enters into this equation.? I used to have 8-Ohm Klipsch speakers that were 104dB efficient and could probably be?driven from a sony walkman due to their efficiency, but you could not fit the speakers on a motorcycle?unless you had?side car and trailer.

I have not found any specs on the RadioSound Vision radio other than 20wpc so I can not absolutely state that the radio is stable at 2, 4, 8 or other Ohm rating other than measuring the OEM speakers that came off of it and assume they did the appropriate pairing.

I guess I will have to get my $500 Fluke 189 recalibrated since our OEM speaker measurements differ.

Tim

?

farlz - 2010-01-26 4:41 PM ... Is there an amp that I can get that will change the outgoing 2 ohms from the reciever to 4 ohms (with increased wattage)? Will this eliminate the suspected issue of causing damage the reciever??

If you are not driving your 4Ohm speakers any higher (volume setting, NOT Sound Pressure Level (SPL)) than your stock speakers, you should be fine.  I tried various automotive speakers on my Vision and found them to require a higher volume setting than stock and then returned them because of it.  The J&M replacement speakers give you more SPL at the same volume setting so you should not be driving your amp harder (assuming they are the same resistence as the OEM speakers).

What is the highest Volume Setting that your run at on your Vision?

What were you running before and after the speaker swap-out?

When you put an amp between the radio and the speakers, the radio no longer sees the speakers as a load.  It sees the amp (and interface to the amp) as the load.  The Vision's radio does not have pre-amp outputs, thus you have to use the high-powered speaker outputs of the radio and use a step-down transformer to provide line-level inputs into the amp.  If the amp accepts high powered inputs, then it already has the step-down transformers included in the amp.  If your amp was stable enough, you could put a 16Ohm or a 0.1 Ohm speaker on the amp and the radio would never know the difference (but the amp and charging system would).

HTH,

Tim

Prostreet1 - 2010-01-27 4:10 PM Ok...now that you guys have totally lost me....Tim..bigwill....getting back to the start of this thread....do you feel this is a good upgrade with the Alpine SPS 500's??....I appreciate the both of you two increasing my understanding of this topic.... :0) Coop

This speaker would not be my first choice for the Vision.  It's sensitivity rating is 87dB which is not very efficient.  Speakers are normally rated by measuring at a distance of 1 meter, on-axis using 1 watt of power.  This means this speaker will produce an SPL of 87dB when fed 1 watt measured at 1 meter.  [Off topic:  Some motorcycle horns are measured at a few inches, which make their "published efficiency rating" artificially higher than it would be measured at  the nominal 1 meter.  They are violating the normal measuring techniques to produce inflated marketing claims].

Since this speaker is not very efficient, you will need more power to get it to output the same SPL as the stock or J&M speaker.  This gets back to what BigWill5150 was stating.  You will end up turning up the amp higher to get the same SPL and wearing it out quicker.  It also goes back to what I stated earlier about trying various automotive speakers in the Vision at the same volume setting to see if it played louder (SPL) or not.  This is not a problem if you have a stable amp with lots of watts, but the Vision's radio only has 20 watts.

I am not so worried about the 4Ohms (especially since I do not have the radio manufacturer's published specs on the radio) as I am the efficiency rating.

The next part is going to involve a little math.  The main point to take away is that power/efficiency/hearing is an exponential relationship, not a linear one, thus you can run out of headroom really quickly if you are trying to drive inefficient speakers with a small amp.  When you run out of gas, you turn up the amp to compensate and in turn, burn it out.

To raise the volume by 3dB, you need to DOUBLE the power going into the speaker. Each 3dB gain then adds another power of 2.

Examples: 

A 90dB efficient speaker will play the same SPL with 1/2 the power of an 87dB efficient speaker (3dB or (1/(2^1))). 

A 93dB efficient speaker will play the same SPL with 1/4 the power of an 87dB efficient speaker (6dB or (1/(2^2))).

A 96dB efficient speaker will play the same SPL with 1/8 the power of an 87dB efficient speaker (9dB or (1/(2^3))).

As a rough general rule, human hearing needs @ a 10dB boost to be perceived as being twice as loud (SPL, not twice the power).  To raise the perception by a factor of 2, you need about 10X as much power (not 2X the power).  From the example above, you see (96dB - 87dB) = 9dB which equates to 8X the power or (2^3).

Vision Example:

Assuming the power meter on the Vision's radio is linear [1-30], you will need to have the volume level set to 24 on an 87dB efficient speaker to get the same volume level of a 96dB efficient speaker set to 3.  The 87dB efficient speaker would need a setting of 32 to match the SPL of the 96dB speaker at a setting of 4 [ 5:50, 6:48, 7:56, 8:64, 9:72, 10:80, ... ].  You are now out of luck with the 87db speaker because the Vision volume control only goes to 30 while the 96dB speaker is only using 2/15th of the amps capacity with plenty of headroom left.  Based on this example, which scenario is more desirable ???

With a less efficient speaker, you will be driving the amp harder to generate the same SPL (while also decreasing headroom) which will shorten the life of the amp over that of using a more efficient speaker.

I hope this helps explain why I would not use this speaker with the Vision's amp.  Go with the J&M replacement speakers which are more efficient requiring less power.

Sincerley,

Tim

Lotzafun - 2010-01-28 6:09 AM Tim, Bigwill....and others- I'd like your opinions Assuming all costs and installation and listening levels and music tastes and such are all equal... Are the J&M speakers the BEST alternative for the Vision? And for those who wish to take it to the next level...what would be the BEST amp to install? And what would be the BEST speakers to install with this amp? Still assuming costs and installation and such as being equal.

The J&M's are the best replacements that I am aware of to date.  Other speakers may sound a little wamer, but you will run into issues outlined in my previous post if they are less efficient.

As for amps, the Vision's charging system needs to be larger than what it currently is.  They should have released the 65amp stator that they advertised in their 2008 and 2009 accessory catelog. Victory would sell a bunch of them to the stereo guys. 

Since the Vision's charging system is marginal with all of the available accesories, you will need a very efficient amp which points you at digital amps (Class T, Class D, etc., not a Class A or Class A/B).  They are generally 80-90% efficient versus 10-20% efficient which is easier on the charging system.  Even with the more efficient amps, you can still overrun the Vision's charging system, so BEWARE, I speak from personal experience with my 2008 Vision. 

Size on the Vision is also a consideration for both speakers and amp placement.  The HD batwing fairings have plenty of room to locate an amp and even larger (diameter & deeper) 6.5" speakers.  Unfortunately, the Vision's fairing will not accomodate 6.5" speakers and the front enclosures limit depth, which vastly limits your speaker choices.  The Vision's fairing also does not have room for an amp.

With the previous restrictions on the Vision, you have to be very selective about what you choose and where you install it.  There will be trade offs.  Do I take up storage space?  Do I run the amp without heated accessories and visa versa, etc.

To date, I can not give a firm recommendation for an amp system that is trade-off free on the Vision until they come out with a stronger stator.  It would also be great if their next fairing design would accomodate 6.5" speakers and add pre-amp outs on the radio.

HTH,

Tim

So, to make things more interesting, where does the 2 Ohm radio speaker rating come from?  I didn't search very hard but I didn't see it in the manual.  Based on the below, I would think they were actually 4 Ohm. 

The following is copied from:

 http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Impedance.htm

So, how do you tell what the impedance of a speaker is?  On most cabinets, it should be printed on a label next to the jack.  If the speaker is visible, it may be printed on the speaker label or stamped on the frame or magnet. To measure the true impedance of a speaker or cabinet requires a rather complex procedure involving signal generators, power amplifiers and high frequency AC voltmeters.  However, with raw speakers and many cabinets,  the ohmmeter function of a digital multimeter can help you identify what the impedance of the speaker should be.  Generally, the reading given by an ohmmeter will be about 2/3  to 3/4 of the impedance of the speaker. So, a 4 ohm speaker will typically measure about 2.5 - 3 ohms, and an 8 ohm speaker will typically read about 5-6 ohms, while a 16 ohm speaker will measure around 12 ohms.

Good questions.? I have not been able to find any published specs on the radio's amp either.? I have pulled the radio and didn't notice any labels on it.

You are correct about getting an accurate measure of a speakers impedance.? When I measured the speakers that I pulled out of the Vision, I used a Fluke meter, but I know that is a crude/improper way to measure the speaker to address the following.

A speakers impedance rating is an "average" rating.? The speakers impedance can vary up and down with load and frequency.? Some speakers have more variance than others which will give lesser amps problems.? Electrostatic speakers tend to vary widely.

I am assuming the amp is more a 4Ohm amp than a 2Ohm amp because a 2Ohm amp would imply a better quality amp and I am skeptical that Victory put a lot of focus on the bike's amp quality instead of focusing their design dollars elsewhere.? I could be wrong.

?

?

Thanks for the post. 

That pretty much settles the argument.  The OEM speakers are 4 Ohms, which means replacing them with 2 Ohm speakers will be stressing the existing amps.

Sincerely,

Tim

"...A 2 ohm speaker is way more efficient than a 4 ohm speaker...". 

You are considering only part of the equation.  You also have to look at the speaker's sensitivity rating.  This is at least as important as its impedance rating.

As a rule of thumb, a speaker that is 1/2 the impedance but is 3dB less sensitive will produce the same volume on a stable amp that doubles in power as the impedance load decreases. 

Examples using the same stable amp at the same volume setting:

• 2 Ohm Speaker @ 91dB will be as loud as a 4 Ohm Speaker @ 94dB.
  
• 2 Ohm Speaker @ 91dB will be as loud as a 8 Ohm speaker @ 97dB.
• 2 Ohm Speaker @ 91dB will be as loud as a 16 Ohm speaker @ 100dB.

"The original Vision speakers were 2 ohm..."

Are you saying Victory's speaker supplier changed speakers from late 2007 to present ?

Sincerely,

Tim

I already read that site.  It states 4 Ohms, but it doesn't show both late 2007 and current 2010 versions.

I got my Vision in late 2007.  When I measured the speakers, they were @ 3.5Ohms using a VOM.  I assume this link is for the current 2010 speakers.  If so, they probably were always @ 4 Ohms.

Thanks,

Tim

Any time you put a lower Ohm rating speaker on an amp, you make the amp work harder.  If the amp is not stable and was not meant to carry this load, you can burn up the amp.

The Vision's radio is reported to be 20watts x 2 channels.

Note, not all amps are created the same.  Some normally run warm/hot (Class A and A/B) and are not very efficient.  Others are much more efficient with more of the energy going into producing sound versus generating heat in the amps (e.g. digital switching amps, UCD amps, Class H and Class T amps).

I do not know the sensitivity rating of the Vision's speaker.  If you stay at 4 Ohms, you should be safe from the amp perspective.  If you find a more speaker with a TRUE higher sensitivity rating, it will produce more volume at the same volume setting on the radio.

Note 1:  Car speaker companies are notorious for publishing misleading specs.  I have tried a couple of car 5.25" speakers and all of them were less efficient than the factory speakers.  Good luck finding one that truly has higher sensitivity.

Note 2:  You need to consider the physical depth of the speaker.  The Vision speakers physically very shallow.  Car speakers with larger magnets will not fit into the Vision's fairing unless you remove the speaker shroud.

The best option I have seen to date is the J&M speaker replacements.  They give you more volume than the stock speakers.  They are shallow enough to fit within the existing speaker shrouds.  I have not heard of them burning up any of the Vision's radio amps and they have probably been out the longest.

I worked with a well known motorcycle speaker manufacturer in early 2008 and they would not recommend using their 2 Ohm speakers on the Vision's radio even though they wanted to enter into this market.

BTW, I just spoke with Biketronics today.  They will soon be coming out with a new 2 and 4 channel UCD (Universal Class D) amp that may fit the Vision.  They indicated the amp will be flat and very small, so I am watching their website for its formal announcement.

The J&M speakers are 1-way speakers (so they do not have woofers or tweeters). 

 http://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=34

 They sound more clear than the factory speakers. 

Don't expect them to have heavy bass or bright top-end (due to the single driver).

If you do not have louder pipes on your bike they should be fine.  If you have loud pipes on your Vision, they will still be competing with the pipes.

I have not heard the Infinity Tweeters + the J&M's nor looked at the crossovers and resulting loads, but this might be your next option before resulting to a more expensive external amplifier solution.

Since the speakers are you 5.25", you will always be really low bass limited.

You can always by one pair and see how you like them.  If you like them, drop the other C-note.

They are louder and more clear than stock.  I would not say the are warmer (no more bass).

I started out with stock, then tried some car speakers (not as loud and didn't fit), then went to J&M, then went to an amplifier. 

Once you go to an amplifier, you have more issues to deal with.

Also, mobile audio follows the laws of diminishing returns.  Once you obtain sound, any additional money you throw at it, the less incremental improvements you get.

Tim

You might want to check with some other Vision owners in your area to listen to their rigs if they have done any mods before buying.  If I still lived in Wisconsin, I'd ride up to your area and let you listen to mine.

Tim

trailbarge,

I'm with Paul (Radioteacher). I commute 26 miles round trip every day to work. I run my radio constantly, have run my grip heaters each day this week coming to work, have my HID "on" all the time (the more light, the better--please, SEE ME!) and still run my original 2008 battery. You may have a charging problem.

were they direct fit or did you have to make modifications to fairing and/or trunk?