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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | So I go to my dealer to buy a few things and talked to the mechanic about the exhaust popping and a few other things. He tells me he can fix the popping in 5 minutes...
So I finish paying for my stuff and head down to the shop. The mechanic explains to me that the problem isn't with the exhaust system leaking, but rather the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve. He says a quick disconnect and adjustment of the idle will fix it up. I remember reading a post where someone cleaned theirs and it helped out, but disconnecting it?
So here is what I observed on the ride home and riding this weekend:
1. There is no more nasty pop or deceleration popcorn sound. I did have two, only two, slight pops that sounded more like a puff. I normally would have had about 40 really bad gun shot pops for the same amount of riding. He did tell me that it will never be 100% gone, but darn close.
2. Cold fast idle (No more) - from what I can tell, the IAC really plays a part in this. Normally, the bike would cold idle to about 1300 rpms and taper to 900-1000 after it warmed up a bit. Starting the bike cold now, it idles steady at 900-1000 rpms. Even though this sounds bad, I felt no ill effects from this. I am curious what could come from this (fouled plugs, etc).
3. Sluggishness between shifts - Occasionally I would get these. Completely gone now.
Overall the bike feels much more responsive than before.
My mechanic said he would do this for anyone that was interested in coming into the shop. If you are around Northeast Ohio, shoot me a PM and I'll get you the info.
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | So does he just disconnect the AIC to adjust the cold idle speed and then reconnect it, or does he leave it disconnected? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | im curious to see how the bike started on a colder 40F day.. with No fast idle..? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | From what he told me, it is disconnected. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
northeast ohio | The IAC is still connected in regards to the electronics portion. It does work well on cold starts on a cold day. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 226
on the edge of Los Angeles | I wonder if this is a Polaris / Victory repair or if its an independent work around that another tech has discovered on his own. Either way I would hope Kevinx could comment on it..
I have S1 L2 pipes and flash and do deal with all issues that have been posted before. I know its lean and would hope to find a fix that did not require more add on's. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | I can't count how many times I have said the problem is in the IAC control. On the bar hopper bikes I plug the intake, and set the idle pretty regularly, but I had issues with doing it to a Vision that rode all over the country. Irregular idle, and stalling problems caused me to undo the modification |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I was waiting for your reply KevinX and will move to my next step. What I understand you to say that the IAC "mod" for a lack of a better term, is not necessarily a viable alternative, is that correct?
If you've not read my other post about my exhaust leak fix, when I pulled the pipes there were imperfections on the mate end of the pipes to the port. I replaced the gaskets, cleaned up the ends with emorory until they were smooth and fixed the bent joint at the left cross over. If the IAC is the culprit, then my bike is running as perfect as it is going to get until something is done about that. I've tightened the exhaust before and it vastly improved the performance. It is now running better than before, with only ONE pop and that is when I left the house coming to the stop sigh that is about 1/8 of a mile down the road. The rest of the way, even in stop and go traffic there was no issues at at all, finally!
I pulled off the IAC cover and poked my fingers in there a few times, but I don't think that had anything to do with it running better, but if so, I'll do that everytime I ride as part of my pre-ride checks.
Edited by varyder 2009-06-23 7:23 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | My idle is rock solid and hasn't stalled at all, yet. I wish Polaris would just fix it right, but until they do, mine is staying the way it is. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | ScoreBo - 2009-06-23 8:35 AM
My idle is rock solid and hasn't stalled at all, yet. I wish Polaris would just fix it right, but until they do, mine is staying the way it is.
Don't get me wrong. I hope that the Vision I tried it on was only a fluke, and you can happily ride all over the country with no issues. If however you find yourself in a different climate, and you start to expieriance problems; then you know what to do. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | Do you have a simple procedure for doing the mod, or is that something the dealer would have to do? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
northeast ohio | the fix that ScoreBo has was a collaboration of trial and error with Victory engineers and our mechanics working together via phone for countless hours. However the engineers could not come out and say to do this to the bikes. (EPA) Polaris/Victory will not take credit for it bc they did'nt figure it out!! Our tech did. It has been working great for all the bikes we have done, and have even noticed some increased performance in particular to 2009 Jackpots with Swept system. If any are in Ohio area and would like to have this done please contact me. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Bill, you stalker. See you at bike night tomorrow at QSL. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | victorybill - 2009-06-23 9:25 PM
the fix that ScoreBo has was a collaboration of trial and error with Victory engineers and our mechanics working together via phone for countless hours. However the engineers could not come out and say to do this to the bikes. (EPA) Polaris/Victory will not take credit for it bc they did'nt figure it out!! Our tech did. It has been working great for all the bikes we have done, and have even noticed some increased performance in particular to 2009 Jackpots with Swept system. If any are in Ohio area and would like to have this done please contact me.
*LOL* May have taken countless hours to pry the info out of them, but both J.A., and Bob have known about this for better then a year. If you look on the VMC a guy with the screen name Cook06Vegas put up detailed instructions in like March of 08. This trick is nothing new, and has been done to all the closed loop Jap cruisers for a while now. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| hows it going Kevinx? still lovin my new improved vision. My pops have gone down a little since the install of the cams, but still like to show there head from time to time. I am gettin so use to it i am starting to like it. If it causes no problms i can put up with it for now until a good fix is found. Since I ride the bike all over: different temps, different elevations, etc etc i handle the occasional pops.
hope all is well. |
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I am really no expert on tuning but I worked in the auto field for a few years and saying that the IAC valve is the problem and eliminateing it to cure a running condition does not make sound sense. Just because it corrects for a particular condition does not make it correct. But ....... without the means to correct for it properly this half-arse remedy could be the only one at our disposal. My stock Vision does nothing abnormal running wise and that is why I am very hesitant to change anything that would put me on never ending path trying to get my bike running well. Been there with a Harley and don't want to go back. Victory could make available a 'KEY" like the Harley Race Tuner or the TTS but they are probably wise to not even go there. The people that can be effective tuning with those devices are few and far between. And the ones that can get it all right the first time are nearly non-existant. Dyno tuning is great for bragging rights but fact is we ride in the real world and how often do we operate at full throttle and for how long.
Sorry for the rant but the decel popping if not exhaust leaking is a decel post fuel enrichment issue amd could be addressed pretty quickly if we had the ability to look at and change parameters on the ECM. That said if we are talking standard S1/L1 or S1/L2 and nothing else the reprogram "FLASH" should not allow popping. Victory should step up if there is a large amount of problems.
Walt |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I'm wondering if the idle adjustment has more to do with the cure? If I dont release the throttle all the way before shifting, no pop. If the motor wont idle with the IAC all the way in I could see a potential stall condition. Victory gives no base idle specs. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Maybe not everyone has seen my post, or maybe you just take me as a redneck in training. I refuse to fix my bike by pulling all the jerry rig stunts and claim I found a fix.
My Vision was popping from day one even when it was denied there ever was a problem. In fact my dealer told me that they never heard of it and they couldn't get mine to replicate the issue. Then months later they said every '08 did it.
I got tired of whining to them but found when I tightened the exhaust the condition lessened for a while. Well for the past several months I was suspecting the exhaust leak or a vacuum leak and finally I got to pull my header pipes last week and found them to be leaking because of imperfections. So I did the natural thing and used emorory cloth to smooth them and replaced by gaskets, fixed the exhaust leak on the left side of the crossover.
No more pop!
So if every '08 does it then every '08 has flawed header pipes.
Go ahead and keep screwing with your $24,000 bike and all the gizmo crap, or you can fix it in a good afternoon.
Peace out!
Edited by varyder 2009-06-25 8:07 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder I have read your post, and don't figure you to be a redneck in training*LOL* I have also noted that you have stated that you do have some random pops; though greatly reduced. The thing that kills me is that the bikes are so hyper sensative to teeny-tiny leaks. If the hard\software was right then this would not be an issue. Cars have been closed loop since the early 80's; so it is not like they had to invent the wheel.
cjnoho
If you do not close the throttle you miss the injector momentery shut down, and the cranking open of the IAC in preperation of idle |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm certainly not an engineer, but I sure can jerry rig with the best. I appreciated all the suggestions from the dealers and from the wrenches here; s1L1/2, commanders, IAC jimmie, etc, etc. I've been in a twixt as to what the real problem is as none of those have proven to be a fix. I've trusted the engineers at Victory to test and get the dynamic of the bike correct.
I do not agree with my dealers of assessment that all '08 does it. I've been in the maintenance field, fixer type, for the better part of my life, and though I'm not always right, my principles of the issue is right. There is a leak, and I'm inclined to believe intake and exhaust. So instead of trying to tinker with the stuff to compensate and I've mentioned before that the tinkering is compensating, why not fix the problem and let the bike do it's own right thing.
It is refreshing to not have my bike to stall I'm retraining myself NOT to anticipate the popping and cutout since it is not happening anymore. If it does I'll be ready for it. I still get a very minor occassionally pop in the intake area so my next move is to fine those teeny tiny leaks that KevenX references.
Not to get to overly excited about this and say it is "the fix" I just know mine is fixed, save the now minor pops that are occassionally occuring, and those are when the bike is running hot, in stop and go traffic. So if you say it is not fixed, you weren't riding my bike before compared to now either, I felt like in town I had chitty-chitty bang-bang of Visions. Now I'm not nary afraid of a pack of H.O.G. pulling up next to me at a light cause I'll smoke 'em all.
One more thing, all this focus on jimmying the gizmo's took the focus off my real problem, as I'm sure it is with other folk. As a troubleshooter, you must eliminate the problem before you make any tweaks. I could tell countless story's of quick fixes that actually caused greater problems, when the actual problem was a very simple one to fix.
Peace out.
Edited by varyder 2009-06-26 7:06 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Chris,
The first thing I did, last year from Lloyd's recommendation, was to replace my header gaskets. When I did I and found a leak there with the factory metal gaskets. I have pics at home and my front was leaking pretty bad. I replaced them with different ones that Lloyd recommended. They are the softer woven metal ones and one would think they would seal better. Noto sure it made a difference at all.
The thing that I hate the most is the intake cough. I think you called it a pop in the intake. With Lloyd's intake plate you hear it quite well. I have not had one cough with the IAC disconnected.
With all this rambling, I just want it to stop. It is embarassing to be riding a bike as cool as a Vision sounding like a popcorn machine rolling down the street. Heaven forbid you are around other non-vic riders and it happens. The 'right' fix is for Polaris to identify the problem and make the fix. Whether is an ECU adjustment to the IAC, better sealing of the exhaust or a combination of both. It isn't right for ANY of us to come up with a fix for a $20,000+ motorcycle.
As I look back over the last year with the bike, the biggest improvement for me was the reflash that fixed the stalling. My pops are down 75% from where they were originally. I am certain this is all ECU work around the IAC since it showed such a noticeable improvement last year. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
Hot Springs Village, Arkansas | So you think it's the motor oil you're using...........:-) |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | :-) Lord only knows, but it could be! ha ha ha |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Okay, found my vacuum leak, at least one of them, but I think I'm done with all the shinanigans and ready to see how things go from here.
Under the console, or big remote, where the radio display and buttons are is your airbox. On top of the airbox is an access panel that is fixed with 6 bolts. Rubber side goes down as the manual would say, but what a crappy job there. I pulled the panel off and look and only about 25% of the rubber material has an imprint, the rest looks as if it has never made contact with the airbox. Also, there is distinct evidences of pop flash out of the rear part directly above the intake ports. I would have taken pictures but it always proves that my best shots are of Big Foot or Loch Ness quality and it wouldn't prove anything.
So I clean all this up and get some silicon RTV and run a bead around for a better seal. I hesitant to say I found a cure because that will just disproves all the other "fixes" so I'll go happily and merrily along my way.
One thing I have noticed is this machine runs hot, at least 20 to 30 degrees according to the dipstick, not me, the thing that I use to check the oil. It is also running very lean as oppose to before when I had the leaks it was running much cooler and richer. My tail pipes doesn't even look like that there is any soot and I'm starting to actually see rust. So I'm going to clean them up and paint it flat black for oldtimes sake.
By the way, on the oil, I'm running Vic dino/syn blend and I'm using plugs from my dealer, so right now I'm 100% Vic.  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Chris, that access panel would be replaced by Lloyd's intake plate. Just in case you wanted an extra 10HP. ;-)
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Okay, now that I'm more familiar with the top access plate, if that is installed, where does the air come in? through the intake plate or through the airbox at the filter. I'm not picturing the set up in my mind yet. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | hey Victory Bill what part of ohio are you in.. Im just south of Pittsburgh pa.. you know home of the SuperBowl and Stanley Cup champs! LOL
Chris
victorybill - 2009-06-23 9:25 PM
the fix that ScoreBo has was a collaboration of trial and error with Victory engineers and our mechanics working together via phone for countless hours. However the engineers could not come out and say to do this to the bikes. (EPA) Polaris/Victory will not take credit for it bc they did'nt figure it out!! Our tech did. It has been working great for all the bikes we have done, and have even noticed some increased performance in particular to 2009 Jackpots with Swept system. If any are in Ohio area and would like to have this done please contact me. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | anyone have photos of what exactly you disable with this "fix" |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | varyder - 2009-06-26 6:59 PM
Okay, now that I'm more familiar with the top access plate, if that is installed, where does the air come in? through the intake plate or through the airbox at the filter. I'm not picturing the set up in my mind yet.
On your stock setup, it pulls air thru the air filter only under the headlight. If you were to add Lloyds intake plate (it would replace the access plate), it would pull it from that AND the air filter.
Here is a pick of Lloyds replacement.
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Thanks Scorebo, I'm sure I could have search that out on the forum as that is a simple explanation. I'm sure I would only want to do this with performance pipes and the cam, as for stock it wouldn't do much good unless I had a new flash.
Is the filter for the plate replaceable or cleanable?
By the way, went for a ride with the better half last night and enjoyed a pop free evening except the one from the store.
Plan on putting 300+ today going to N.C. and look forward to see how it does. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | varyder - 2009-06-26 7:10 PM
Okay, found my vacuum leak, at least one of them, but I think I'm done with all the shinanigans and ready to see how things go from here.
Under the console, or big remote, where the radio display and buttons are is your airbox. On top of the airbox is an access panel that is fixed with 6 bolts. Rubber side goes down as the manual would say, but what a crappy job there. I pulled the panel off and look and only about 25% of the rubber material has an imprint, the rest looks as if it has never made contact with the airbox. Also, there is distinct evidences of pop flash out of the rear part directly above the intake ports. I would have taken pictures but it always proves that my best shots are of Big Foot or Loch Ness quality and it wouldn't prove anything.
So I clean all this up and get some silicon RTV and run a bead around for a better seal. I hesitant to say I found a cure because that will just disproves all the other "fixes" so I'll go happily and merrily along my way.
One thing I have noticed is this machine runs hot, at least 20 to 30 degrees according to the dipstick, not me, the thing that I use to check the oil. It is also running very lean as oppose to before when I had the leaks it was running much cooler and richer. My tail pipes doesn't even look like that there is any soot and I'm starting to actually see rust. So I'm going to clean them up and paint it flat black for oldtimes sake.
By the way, on the oil, I'm running Vic dino/syn blend and I'm using plugs from my dealer, so right now I'm 100% Vic.
I want to clarify as I was aptly corrected by KevinX on a post I made on theVMC that I found a "vacuum leak" on the airbox. Well, as pointed out, vacuum leaks only occur after the throttle plate and not before. However, in my excitement and finding clear evidence of intake backfire going between this plate and the airbox, I sealed it up to prevent any further unfiltered air from coming in.
So at this point, any non-popping issues that I'm having now can only be attributed to the exhaust leak being corrected.
thus the woes of forums and well-meaning misinformatijon. |
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New user
Posts: 1
| Mine has done the same thing only a couple of times in 18000 miles. I notice the bike will act up usually when I am barely on the throttle just taking it easy(very slow speeds) and I crack the throttle out of habit. LLoyd has made it very clear that these bikes don't like to have the go flipper cracked. I just can't stop doing it so I live with it! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | This is not a problem for me anymore. I crack the throttle all the time now.  I have also taken taken the bike from CrAkron OH to Raleigh NC with NO issues. Tar snakes in the rain don't count (scariest experience of my life in the curves in WV in a downpour). |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | Since I got kevinXinated, my bike has been letting out some VICIOUS farts.
- usually only in the first minute or two of riding - but sometimes if I am barely on the throttle and maybe grab a bit too much (as per Super Trooper).
- I have adjusted my driving habits as a result - and the problem is now minimal - maybe once a day. Just don't be lazy on the throttle and lazy shifting.
But when it pops - it POPS - I think the exhaust pipe has blown itself apart.... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Super Trooper, this will be exaggerated with different pipes. If you are stock, it is hardly noticeable. Mine didn't do it at all when it was stock. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm just saying. Unless you pull your header pipes you will not be able to see if it has been a leak or fix the leaks that come for that area. I pulled mine and it was a mess. Cleaned the ends up and replaced the gaskets and I'm now one happy camper.  I'm just saying...
I save the pop for when I stop at the quik-mart... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | kevinx - 2009-06-24 5:35 AM
*LOL* May have taken countless hours to pry the info out of them, but both J.A., and Bob have known about this for better then a year. If you look on the VMC a guy with the screen name Cook06Vegas put up detailed instructions in like March of 08. This trick is nothing new, and has been done to all the closed loop Jap cruisers for a while now.
Disabling this was exactly what we had to do to get the exhaust pop out of my V-star. Once I put aftermarket pipes on the bike, it would decel pop like hell every twist of the throttle. It was down right embarrasing. Sounded like a cheap Sportster with a hack job exhaust. Circumvented the AIS (kinda like IAC) and viola! NO backfire what so ever. If replacing my exhaust gaskets doesn't fix my decel pop on the Vision, I'll probably start digging around for the IAC. Did you pull the electrical plug under the left engine emblem?
Edited by bigwill5150 2009-08-06 12:13 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Bigwill, I changed my header gaskets first, with the ones that Lloyd recommended. No difference. But go for it. I am jealous it worked for varyder. I went from stock bike / pipes to VFC3 and Big Honkers. NEVER had a pop stock, that I could hear, to popcorn machine. Changed the gaskets (which are a pain because of the 2-1 exhaust) and it made no difference. However, my stock solid metal gaskets showed signs of leakage. The recommended Victory ones from Lloyd are woven metal.
I was really hoping it would fix it(i am trying to help you set your expectations if you hadn't noticed). |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Scorebo, I won't discount that some IAC's are bad at all and yours might be one of them. I'm thankful mine is not one of them at this time. Having over a year to contemplate this I wanted to make sure that it was fixed, the exhaust leak, once and for all. I'll probably pull my pipes again in another year when I do the belt again, and replace the gaskets, possibly with Lloyds suggestion. I'm not doubting your ability, but I would make doubly sure there is no leaks anywhere in your exhaust. I took a suggestion I believed that David White made and that is to use grease around the exhausts joints, not the gaskets, but the joins of each section of the pipes. What should happen is that it will leave a residue that will create a better seal. I believed that helped me in my endeavor. I'm not only glad the popping is going, but the tickin' for the leaks are gone and I"m impressed in how quiet the motor sounds in comparison. Double check all your joints and see if there maybe any leakage, I think you may still have one either at the two-in-one or at the cross-over. There's one more thing I might do, is to loosen the header pipes up and make sure they are square on. I know they seem simple to put on, but I had to fiddle with them just a little to make sure they were square on.
Edited by varyder 2009-08-06 9:03 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Chris, I am open to anything as I just want it to be 100% fixed. It just amazes me that I only disturbed from the cats back, never had a single pop with the stock exhaust and then it sounds hideous. Believe me, I torqued the clamps that I removed down to proper specs. My deal even inspected the exhaust and told me I didn't have a leak.
I am going to tear it down again and see what I can get. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I don't want to run down my rat hole, but it burned me a little when I was basically told to live with the popping, they all do that. That was even after I told them I felt that I had an exhaust leak, one of the top checks in troubleshooting. When I told them I fixed the pop by fixing the exhaust leaks, they said "don't it feel good when you find that a problem is something simple." Anyway, I offer no guarantee, it is that I went through the exhaust carefully, especially when I put it back together. I was pleasantly surprise when it was 95% better right after, and then after a few days of riding it has been a joy. I'm not sure what made the difference after that day or two. Funny thing is that I took pictures of the ends of the header pipes so I could send them to Victory, but they came out in Lock Ness picture quality. I think I was too close. I still got the gaskets though. I feel your pain dude...
Edited by varyder 2009-08-06 9:40 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | Just to clarify, i usually use my finger and wipe a thin film of engine oil over the joints so there is no binding when your wrenching down on the clamp. Any residue will usually bake off. May smell funny for the first ride out, but it goes away. The carbon residue will have a tendency to gum up and seal any cracks. The alternative which may be better, is get some exhaust grade RTV, usually a copper color. use sparingly on the joints.
I will be doing some inspections on the access plate in the future on a couple of key Visions i have had issues with over the last year. I replaced a fuel pump on one vision and it did not completely cure his popping, but the bike quit stalling. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | yeah, you did say use engine oil, but I figure the grease would leave a better residue. I also like the smoke and smell for about 10 miles afterwards. My access plate showed a long time popping issue where it was a dark brown between the plate and airbox. I got excited thinking that leak had something to do with the minor popping, but was corrected on that issues. I still need to run something down the throat so I can clean out all that carbon build up. |
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | I like the smell of burnt great as well, but some people probably think thats to acrid. lol |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Looks like I will have a nice rainy weekend to work on this. I'll let you know. I am about 95% pop-free now. Shoot for NO pops. Keep your fingers crossed. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Here are pics of my gaskets when I originally replaced them.
Comparison of old (solid) vs. new vic woven ones (part number on the bag if anyone wants to get some).
Here are my back (left) and front (right).
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Exhaust Popping - IAC appears to be the problem