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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | That's what I've got. Just got done inspecting and tightening the belt and it looks cheerio. I'm debating as to whether I will change it at the 45K mark when I do all the tires. I just might do that as I want to rip off the exhaust and replace all the gaskets to see if it will take care of the poppin'. It also might be a good time to strip it down if the wheels are off at the shop, and I'm doing the belt. I just hope I can get it back together right.  Back to the inspection, I should take pictures, but I could not find any fray, chips, cracks, etc. The only problem is that rear pulley that is chipping the coating off. I'll have to change that also. Hmmmmm, tires, belt, gaskets, pulley..... | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | My belt looks brand new at 26k. My local wrench told me that the belt is so tough that it wears into the pulley rather than the pulley wearing on the belt. Slack from the belt is actually the pulley wearing down rather than the belt stretching. Just something to make me go "Huh".
Edited by SongFan 2009-05-09 5:41 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 404
San Antonio, TX United States | I know it may sound odd at first, but from the years i spent with conveyor systems, you have to be careful not to let the conveyor systems to get out of line for too long. I have watched belts cut through half inch plate in very short times, (2-4 hours)
and the belt show little to no wear. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The problem with looking at belts is that it ignores the fact that they brake from the inside cords out. In other words it can look pefect, and brake the same day. The rubber is a protective coating, and not the source of strength | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Thanks for that reminder Kevin. I'm a believer that a belt could break day one out of the showroom given the right condition. I'm also a believer in that the 30K is VERY conservative to negate any liability. So if my belt were to break at 30,001 it would be on me for not changing it on time and being stuck on the side of the road. So if the 30K is conservative by the orginial standards then a looser belt tolerance should extend the life, correct? Now, let's take another angle, and say that 30,000 is really translated somehow into years, given truly the overall low mileage average for a motorcycle for varies reasons. So if an 'average' rider put's on 5,000 a year then after six years would be the change date, and by then you're getting rot, so it would be time to change. So I'm taking that responsbility of my belt and my bike and saying every two years or every 60,000 would be a good point to change the belt. But, since I want to pull the exhaust to replace the gaskets, it would be best served to do it at 45K as I plan to do at the moment. As always I'm thinking too much but I've heard of folks saying they've gotten 100K out of a lessor quality belt, but that is just heresay at this moment. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2009-05-10 10:22 PM
As always I'm thinking too much but I've heard of folks saying they've gotten 100K out of a lessor quality belt, but that is just heresay at this moment.
You need to keep in mind that those bikes had around HALF the torque of your Vision. Best of luck with your experiment | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | I really do hope that the new style belts used on the Vision are better than the ones used on the older Vics. I just busted another belt on my 2000 SC today. That makes four, so far. I'm really starting to consider a chain drive conversion for that bike. The fact that the Vision has a belt drive gave me pause about buying one, but the bike is so great that I chose a Vision over another Goldwing anyway. I do wish Victory had gone with a shaft drive on the Vision though. My experiences with belt drives has not been good.
Ronnie | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 257
Under the Rule of Jedi - Masshole | Ronnie, as an owner of a 99c, I feel your pain. Couple of questions, did you ever have the tranny upgrade? Not sure if it applied to the 2000 SC. I did, but even before that I upgraded my pulleys and belt to the "new" style and never had another problem. Reason I ask about the upgrade to the tranny is in case you didn't know, the upgrade comes with the "new" style belt and pulleys.
Pete
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | rdbudd - 2009-05-11 10:24 PM
I really do hope that the new style belts used on the Vision are better than the ones used on the older Vics. I just busted another belt on my 2000 SC today. That makes four, so far. I'm really starting to consider a chain drive conversion for that bike. The fact that the Vision has a belt drive gave me pause about buying one, but the bike is so great that I chose a Vision over another Goldwing anyway. I do wish Victory had gone with a shaft drive on the Vision though. My experiences with belt drives has not been good.
Ronnie
Put 45K of VERY hard high power miles on a TC belt. Properly adjusted a belt is a very rliable piece, and does not rob power, or torque jack like a shaft. Also it is funny how everyone forgets what living with a chain is like. Lube spraying everywhere, 10-15K replacement intervals that include sprockets, and constant adjustments. I'm glad to be away from them | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | When I first started riding I bought a CB750 Custom and I really loved that bike. It was the best all around small bike and great to ride, Honda did very well with the 750 inline four. However, it was chain-driven and the original chain lasted a good while, maybe 15K or so, and with the riding I did, it came quickly as it was my sole transportation. Every major ride, or week, whichever came first, it was adjusting, lubing, etc, and more so after I replaced the original Honda chain with a "heavy duty" chain. When I sold that CB750 I missed that bike, but not the chain thing and swore my next bike would be shaft-driven. Well, 20 years later I got the shaft-drive bike I wanted back when I sold the CB750, a GL1200 Goldwing. The first thing I noticed was you noticed the shaft drive torquing the bike, expecially in the twisties. I learned to live with it but realized that is not what I wanted in my riding experience. Well two years later I finially get my belt drive and find it is a very clean experience in riding, literally. No mess, no fuss, no twist. Not that I wanted to repeat what you said KevinX, but to confirm that has been my exact experience. When it comes time to replace my Vision, I hope they still offer the belt-drive, no aBS edition. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | To answer Pete's question, no I do not have an upgraded tranny. I've never needed it. My bike's tranny has been fine, so far. The 2000 SC already has the later style pulleys and belt, the same as was used on all the later "hammer" motored bikes.
For all those who question my wish for a shaft drive on a long-distance luxury touring bike (the Vision), be assured that I know all the pros and cons of chain versus belt versus shaft. I've been riding street bikes for the past 44 years and have owned many bikes and ridden many more besides those I have personally owned. Yes, I know that chains require a lot of maintenance and need to be replaced every 15, 000 miles. I wish I could get that kind of mileage out of a belt, but I haven't. Yes, I know that belts rob less power than a shaft, but a well-designed shaft drive is completely reliable and needs VERY little maintenance. I know all about torque jacking of shaft drives. I had a couple of Yamahas that would jack the rearend up several inches upon a hard launch. Honda's GL1800 Goldwing has a shaft drive, and it jacks up very little, if any. I don't know how Honda figured out how to control the jacking, but if they can do it, so could Victory. The shaft drive is totally reliable and gives one piece of mind when a long way from home, or a Victory dealership. Even a few miles is a long way when your belt breaks. Been there, done that, four times so far. Even a broken chain gives you a chance to jury-rig it to get you on down the road. I have limped a chain driven bike home by splicing the links back together with wire pilfered from a fence alongside the road. Had to take 'er real easy, but we got there. How do you do that with a belt?
Side Note. The GL1800's shaft drive also incorporates a single-sided swingarm (idea copied from BMW). This fact, coupled with a centerstand, lets one fairly easily pull the rear wheel on the roadside to effect repairs. The wheel can be taken to a shop to have the tire replaced and then returned to its rightful place on the bike, all on the side of the road. Try that on our belt driven Visions. By the way, where's the centerstand on a Vision? Even if you happen to have a spare belt with you, how are you going to put it on by the side of the road?
My belt problems probably stem from the fact that I live back in the boonies on gravel roads. Gravel roads and belts do not mix well. If the belt were totally enclosed in a case (like the chain on my old Honda 150 Benly Touring was), I probably wouldn't have rocks getting on the belt and causing chaos. But if Victory had done that, then a bunch of you would probably bitch about the ugly enclosure.
I bought my Vision to ride long distances, and it replaces a Goldwing. A heavyweight long-distance luxury touring bike should have shaft drive. A belt drive is just inviting disaster to come along for the ride. BTW, I don't want no stinking ABS on my bike either. I've got cars and pickups with ABS, and I don't like how they work. The 18 wheeler I drive for a living has ABS, and I hate it. They DO NOT work as advertised, and actually INCREASE the stopping distances in a bad situation. Don't bother me with theory, I know the truth from first-hand experience.
I really do love my Vision. Just wish it had a shaft drive. And a singlesided swingarm. And a centerstand. Then Honda would REALLY have to go back to the drawing boards.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2009-05-12 8:31 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i dont like the idea of a belt breaking on a long distance trip.. with no help in site.. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 257
Under the Rule of Jedi - Masshole | Ronnie, wish I had a better answer for you on the SC. But like you said, the gravel roads are a killer.
I remember on a V2V, Roadkill was acting up, I'm like Tim, easy, next red light hole shot, SNAP! We waited roadside for a long time till Lobo could get some of his biker friends to come with a trailer and get us back to the club house. Any old timers remember this? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Member No. 1 - 2009-05-12 8:22 PM
Ronnie, wish I had a better answer for you on the SC. But like you said, the gravel roads are a killer.
I remember on a V2V, Roadkill was acting up, I'm like Tim, easy, next red light hole shot, SNAP! We waited roadside for a long time till Lobo could get some of his biker friends to come with a trailer and get us back to the club house. Any old timers remember this?
As you know Pete, I wasn't there in that particular instance, but I remember you guys talking about it on the forums. I know what waiting for a trailer, because of a broken belt, feels like from first hand experience. It kind of puts a damper on the festivities, and gives your shaft-driven (and chain-driven) bike riding buddies lots of ammunition.
Before some of you start yelling that I should have bought another Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki if I don't like belt drive, let me remind you that I have owned all the above and could have bought another if I wanted to. I like my Victory bikes. I also believe that Victory should have gone with shaft-drive on the Vision. This sucker just begs to go on rides to places far-far-far away. Shafts do it without trouble. Belts don't. YMMV.
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Hmmmm, not opposing a shaft drive for the Vision, just wondering what the compromise will be in the engineering. It will have an affect on the Vision experience in balance and weight. Maybe Victory can come out with another tourer and stick the shaft to it before they mess with the Vision. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 257
Under the Rule of Jedi - Masshole | I doubt you will see a shaft on a Victory any time soon or ever. Unlike some of the Japanese companies, who have a lot of different engine configurations, Victory has only one basic engine case they use in all their bike. I wouldn't think they would tool up a new engine for just one model. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Member No. 1 - 2009-05-13 5:05 AM
I doubt you will see a shaft on a Victory any time soon or ever. Unlike some of the Japanese companies, who have a lot of different engine configurations, Victory has only one basic engine case they use in all their bike. I wouldn't think they would tool up a new engine for just one model.
They wouldn't need to tool up a new engine for just one model. All they would need to do is put a bevel drive on the countershaft output and modify the swingarm to accomodate a shaft. Suzuki did this back in the early 80's when they produced the "GS-G" series bikes (shaft driven) which were based on the chain driven "GS-E" series bikes. I had three different "E" series bikes and a "G" series bike. The engines and transmissions were all the same design, except that the "G" series bike had a bevel drive in place of the front sprocket. I'm pretty sure Honda and Kawasaki did the same thing with some of their engine designs too, but I was mostly into street/drag racing back in the 80's, and Suzuki ruled the streets and dragstrips, at least where I played. It's not that difficult to adapt shaft drive to a transmission originally designed as chain or belt drive. Yes, it would add a little weight, and rob a little horsepower. It would probably mean the Vision would then equal the weight of a GL1800, instead of being 20 pounds lighter than a GL1800. The factory could buy or license Lloyd's cam design from him to address the horsepower loss issue. The GL1800 puts 100 horsepower to the ground. Lloyd's cams cause a Vision to put 110 to 114 horsepower to the ground using the belt drive. Subtract 10 for the shaft drive, and the Vision still equals the power-to-weight ratio of the Goldwing. It's a no-brainer.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2009-05-13 10:04 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 257
Under the Rule of Jedi - Masshole | Ronnie, I thought of how the shaft would work with the current engine cases, but it looks like
it would stick out to far. I may be wrong, as I really don't pay that much attention to shaft drive bikes, nor have I ever owned one, but the bikes with shaft drive, isn't the shaft part of the rear suspension? I mean if I recall, don't most of those have outboard shocks as compared to the way the Vision is set up? If so, again, that would mean more tooling changes.
Not that it can't be done, I just don't see Victory seeing this as feasible.
I'm not knocking your ideas, or trying to put it down, just making an observations and thinking out loud. I'm here to learn to. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Pete, the bevel gear drive would fit in the same area that the current belt drive pulley does without any trouble. The countershaft area on our Victorys is actually quite large when compared to chain driven bikes. I have owned a few shaft driven bikes, as well as several chain driven bikes. The shaft is not part of the rear suspension, unless you count the swingarm as part of the suspension. Typically, the shaft runs inside a hollow swingarm. The swingarm can be two sided or singlesided. The earlier shaft driven bikes did use two outboard shock absorbers, but most today use a rising rate monoshock, just as our Victorys already do. BMW was the first to use a singlesided swingarm with shaft drive on a large motorcycle. The technology has been around a long time now. Honda copied the BMW design (and improved it) when they came out with the GL1800 in 2001. It has a great many advantages over a double sided swingarm and chain or belt drive. Ease of rear wheel service is a prime advantage. You can literally pull the rear wheel on a BMW or GL1800 on the side of the road using basic tools, in just a few minutes. The entire drive system stays on the bike, unmolested. Check out a BMW K1200LT or Honda GL1800 to see what I'm talking about. The ride and handling are not compromised either. Just try keeping up with an experienced rider of either of those bikes in the twistees, if he or she is feeling frisky. We all know how good our Visions handle. Those bikes are just as good, especially the GL1800. The Vision is more comfortable than either of those though. I just feel that shaft drive, a singlesided swingarm, and a centerstand would have made the nearly perfect luxury touring bike (Vision) the perfect luxury touring bike.
I would even be fairly happy with a double sided swingarm shaft drive setup, which would be a fairly simple redesign of the existing design, but the singlesided setup would be ideal from the consumer's point of view.
Ronnie | |
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A Good Belt