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Cruiser
Posts: 294
rhode island | anyone lose pressure in their rear brake line?
no apparent leaks or loss of fluid. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 177
NW Illinois | Yes I was going to post but did not get a chance. 2 weeks ago when I took the bike out after sitting alll winter was going for the first ride, no foot brake. I went right down to "Randys" (Great Shop) they bled the brakes said there was a little moisture and air in the line that went to the front on the integrated system. After that I have been riding almost every day with no problem.
They did call Victory and Victory said they had heard of a couple people had the same problem.
I had no leaks or fluid loss either |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Hmmmm, that's very odd. There has to be another cause to that problem. GA Trixie had an issue with the line getting a hole in it I believe, next to the left floorboard mount where it was rubbing against. I checked mine and pulled it up off of it with no problems and will check it again before I head to Atlanta tomorrow. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 18
Austin, Texas | Strange...I had the same exact problem last week. Air in the line was the cause. The dealership claims this is the first time they have seen it. They also stated a washer on a banjo bolt was supposedly the cause. I'm going to see if it happens again. Doesn't sound like an isolated incident to me....
Kevin |
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Cruiser
Posts: 73
San Diego, Ca | Mine went out last week . Thank God for the front brakes . My dealer said he has had three others go out , just bled the air out of the line . They did not know what causes the air in the lines. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 57
| I had the same problem air in the line |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Recall time. Please, please make sure your dealers get this info to Victory ASAP. If you experienced it at home and fixed it, tell the dealer, tell Victory PLEASE! Now, please give us some stats here and on theVMC. - Year of your Bike
- Model
- Serial Number
- Date of purchase
- Miles at time of occurance
- If bike was stored, how long was the storage?
I have a 2008 Tour Premium with 37,000+ miles purchased Nov 07. I never had this problem and I leaving for Atlanta, but this might change everything. By the way, my serial number 3114. Please do not ride your bike until this is fixed if you fall within the parameters. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | Wonder if it is possibbly a temp related type issue? Perhaps long term cold? How were these bikes stored for the winter?
Just tossing a rough theory out for ponderance.... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | I rode all but about 20 some odd different days due to snow and ice. ohh and once or twice when it wouldn't start. But other than that no problem yet, but she still at the dealer I tell them to bleed out the brakes just in case Tuesday. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Guys, if it sounds like I'm making too big of deal of this, say so. Any pressure loss of brakes, obviously, is not a good thing, especially an unexplained reason. This should not simply be a "bled them" and that takes care of the problem, as the problem can reoccur at the time you need them the most. So the more folk that chimes in with the problem TO THE DEALER AND VICTORY, the better chance of them looking into it, getting a recall out so all can be taken care. I would not want this resting on my shoulders if I had the problem and did not let the appropriate people know and we lose a couple rider because of it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 294
rhode island | thanks guys,
I'll try bleeding them today, And contact my dealer in the morning.
I have a very early vision tour with 12,000 miles. this was the only problem so far. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 89
Chandler, AZ | mine went out at 9500 miles. The bike does not sit and is riden 2-3 times per week in warm to hot conditions. The dealer had to bleed my brakes the "entire" day. They said they had to keep pressure on it to make sure the air bubble that caused the issue was removed. It has been fine since then (about 4k miles ago). Mine is an 08 Cumfort purchased last January 08... They also said it has happened to 2 or 3 other Visions ... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 177
NW Illinois | Mine sat for 3 months in a non heated garage
My Dealer did contact Victory
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | graybeard - 2009-03-29 8:26 AM
Mine sat for 3 months in a non heated garage
My Dealer did contact Victory
Mine sat for 144 days before I rode it this month. Sits again for days and another little ride, now we have a blizzard finishing up so it will be a while to ride again.
No problem with the brakes when I went for my first ride. I rarely use brakes as I don't ride in much traffic and start slowing with the engine and down shifting....use the front brakes primarily and the foot brake about 10% of the time.
The mysterious air in the line is a mystery as the brakes are part of a closed system. As the pads wear down and the caliper pistons extend further, I thought that is what the reserve of brake fluid is for. Does the temperature heat/cold cycle cause "air" or "void"? That would suck because wouldn't that just be great when you need them in a panic stop that you get air!
2800-ish miles.
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | Here's what I know about brake fluid and the braking system:
1. Brake systems are not closed they have to be vented to work properly.
2. Venting allows moisture to migrate into the system.
3. Moisture reduces the boiling point of brake fluid.
4. Temperature will not affect the performance of brake fluid unless it boils.
5. Unless it's silicone all brake fluid it will attract moisture.
6. One drop of moisture will have an adverse affect on the braking efficiency once it boils and becomes a vapor.
It is extremely easy to raise the temperature of brake fluid to 300-350 degrees or higher in calipers during heavy stop and go traffic conditions and then cool down to normal temperatures. Over time this creates moisture in the system.
Moisture itself is not compressible and acts similar to brake fluid, but when it turns into a vapor at temperatures above 212 degrees it can be compressed compromising braking efficiency resulting in conditions such as greater pedal travel, increased stopping time and distance, and a failure to be able to lock the bike down during an emergency stop.
I flush and refill the entire brake system with a minimum of 2quarts of Super Dot 4 brake fluid every spring. I use a refractometer to test the brake fluid in my bike and find that the boiling point can be reduced by as much as 150 degrees depending on driving conditions and mileage. Some auto supply stores sell brake fluid strips that test boiling point and moisture level, but use caution the have an expiration date don't use an expired strip.
I recommend you never allow anyone to add brake fluid to your system simply because you do not know how the fluid was stored i.e. was it allowed to sit around open for a period of time absorbing moisture?
The only way I know of for air to get into the brake system is to have had a leak in the system or to have been opened down stream of the reservoir allowing the master cylinder to ran dry and then refilling it without bleeding the system.
That said I have some questions for those of you that had the problem:
1. Did you have a complete failure or was there just greater travel?
2. Did this failure happen in the garage or after you rode for a while?
3. Do you keep your bike in a storage area with fluctuating temperatures?
4. Have you ever flushed and refilled the system completely?
5. Did any of you actually bleed the system and see the air or is that what the dealer said?
6. Is it possible the brakes just got better because of the new fluid
7. Was this problem just the rear?
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Cruiser
Posts: 247
| mine sat most of the winter in an unheated garage. started right up but i noticed the rear brake was mushy and ewnt lower than i remember. thanks for the heads up. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | Thanks Jerry...that was quite the lesson. You changed my mind. I have never been much a believer of flushing and changing brake fluid. |
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | Np problem: remenber the same applys to your cage. I change the fluid in my cars every 30k or when the boiling point starts to fall and i have never had a brake issue except for pads. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | Blackjack - 2009-03-29 5:26 PM
Np problem: remenber the same applys to your cage. I change the fluid in my cars every 30k or when the boiling point starts to fall and i have never had a brake issue except for pads.
Yep...that's where I first heard about the idea...had a "write up guy" trying to convince me I need to change the brake fluid on my Co. ride. I just thought it was another good commision idea for him that he was offering. Why does the fluid need to be changed when it isn't exposed to the elements stored in a closed container/loop...now I know more. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Victory uses DOT 4, so be carefull around the paint. Cant understand that. most other are using DOT 5. DOT 4 and lower are water soluble and attract moisture. Also remember to pump your rear brake pedal when you change the front pads due to the linked system. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | It is obvious that everytime I open my mouth or type here on the forum I show my ignorance. Thanks for all the input. I'm not a "brake man" but I find it interesting that a new machine would have problems so early on with the brakes in such a manner without some other problem. If it is what it is then there is not a concern. Again, I've run 38K now and had the rear brakes changed by the dealer, but they didn't flush the fluid. That was done around 32K and even up to that time I've had zero problems with the rear brakes. I changed the front pads and pumped until pressure returned, but I did not change or bleed. Still, I have no problem with it. So, is this a common occurance across all brake system, or is this more prevalant with motorcycles since it is a smaller system. Just trying to learn more. |
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | Varyder:
Ignorance is such an ugly word I prefer unawareness.
If there truly was air in the system and the system has never had a leak or been allowed to run dry for some other reason then the air was present from the factory but then the problem should have occurred immediately.
Once the system is filled and properly bleed there just is no way for air to get into the system.
Moisture however occurs when the temperature varies. Think of a glass of ice water on a hot summer day and all the moisture that collects on the out side.
Brake fluid by nature is a hydroscopic substance and because of that it will attract moisture anytime it is exposed to the open atmosphere or the temperature varies greatly. This is one of the reasons manufactures are making reservoirs out of translucent material so the fluid can be easily checked without opening the reservoir.
Moisture also plays a major role in creating electrolysis in the system. Electrolysis in its late stage can usually be detected by the discoloration of the fluid as it causes the copper to leach from the brake lines.
While discolored fluid is not an indicator that moisture is currently present it does indicate that it was at one time present in the system.
I have check the boiling point of brake fluid that you could not see through and it was ok and I have check fluid that was clear and found the boiling point to be unacceptable.
Anytime the fluid is discolored it should be flush and refilled with the OEM recommended fluid.
As with any automotive fluid driving habits play a major role as to its longevity. Riders that use more engine braking and less hydraulic braking or ride more highway than city will in some respect have less of an issue. Nearly all import OEM's and some domestic OEM's recommend flushing the brake system at certain intervals and some will even pay for it under warranty because they understand its importance.
IHMO one should change the fluid every year and don't be afraid to use a lot of fluid its cheap by comparison, never keep an opened container of brake fluid more than a year, never store the container in direct sunlight.
When I'm riding down the interstate at 75 mph or riding anywhere for that fact and I have something less the 20square inches of tire patch between me and the asphalt I want to be able to stop.
I hope this helps.
Varyder: Even though I'm a Yankee I love your state and wish I could live there. I have spent a lot of weekends at the South Boston Speedway (home of the fried baloney sandwich) when we raced the ASA series.
Does Elliot Sadler still hold the record for the most fried boloney sandwich's eaten in a day?
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Ouch! Having been born and reared in NOVA I missed alot of the true southern Virginia treats and have never been to S. Boston. Sadly, I don't know whether his bologna sandwich record still stands but I can wolf down a few myself. Thanks for the education on the system, and knowing hydraulics and the potential problems, I just find that this is a prevelant problem with our beloved Vision. I do find it very concerning, but hope nothing bad comes out of it. Though I hear chunks of asphalt can ruin a person's day. Hope all goes well in Michaels situation and can be back in the saddle again soon. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | To date I have had 5 Visions with a brake pedal that goes to the floor. In EVERY one one of them I found the air to be in the FRONT calipers. All of these bikes were 08's, and milage has been anywhere between 3 on a freshly uncrated bike to 7500 during a service. I have no explanation, and I have not heard anything from big Vic about it other then the typical" Never heard of that before" |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Guys it is not all that uncommon to have a little trapped air in a linked brake system even if you use a power bleeder. Had a wing that was a royal pain to get bled 100% and sometimes it would take months before the bubble would cause a flat pedal. Glad everyone negotiated the pedal falling safely and I don't think you have anything to worry about if the dealer got the remaining bubbles. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | I have an '08 Tour Premium with only 2,000 miles. After sitting over the winter, I noticed the very same problem. Very spongy rear brake pedal, and it pushed nearly all the way to the floorboard before it engaged. My bike is stored in a heated shop, never under 65 degrees (f), and a steady 16% humidity for the entire storage period, so moisture is NOT the issue. When I found mine to be mushy, I went to my local dealer and tried all 5 brand new Visions on their showroom floor. 2 of the 5 had a very spongy pedal, and 3 of them were the way I remembered mine being last year. My dealer will be bleeding mine before I ride, and I'll have them notify Victory of the problem as well. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 20
Aberdeen SD | I also have had to have mine bleed yesterday it had a lot of air in the sytem. Got the bike last fall and put 3000 miles on before it went into hibernation for the winter
Edited by bruzer 2009-04-16 8:52 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 43
CASHTON, WI United States | THANKS KEVINX FOR THE FRONT BLEED TIP!!! MINE WERE ALSO VERY SPONGY TODAY!!!
IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE.
THANK YOU!!
ALWAYS RIDE SAFE!!
HWY27GUY |
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Cruiser
Posts: 247
| Just had mine bled while it was in getting the new gas cap. sam scenario. sat a few months and the brake was spongy. went almost to the bottom. isn't this supposed to be a closed system? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | lol are you serious? about the close looped system? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | 8)
Edited by Arkainzeye 2009-04-17 8:32 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 12
| Just picked up my '08 Vision prem. tour, I thought it was my imagination until now. The rear brake pedal went all the way down to the floor board, the bike only has 18 miles on it, direct from the showroom floor. Thanks to you guys, now I know I'm not loosing my mind. I put a call into my dealer to see what they say, but it looks like I gotta bleed some brakes. Thanks for your help! |
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Tourer
Posts: 301
Buffalo Grove,Ill | Ive Always used LMA GTX brake fluid in the racecar and NEVER have i had a problem even after sitting all winter in an un heated garage in Chicago. The only reason i would bleed the brakes is if ive opened the lines or while checking the level in the Girling Master Cylinders, some dirt might get in. I am going to use this in my Vision once next winter comes and i have it down for a few months. It should solve any problems. Instead of looking at the system itself for the culprit, i would be willing to bet most of the problems stem from poor quality fluid.
The LMA can be bought at race shops and costs about 7-8 bucks a bottle. A small bottle. Maybe 12 oz or so. But it doesnt take much.
Edited by clubford00 2009-04-21 12:50 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | I reported my brake problems to the local dealer earlier this week. Checking the Visions on their showroom, the 09's had nice firm brake pedal. One 08 identical to mine (that had been on the floor since last fall with no temperature variation) had the pedal go straight to the floorboard. They have been in contact with Polaris, and one of their engineers will be visiting my dealer and doing a complete check of both that machine and mine to determine what is happening. They said they've been hearing about this probem but haven't actually seen a bike with the symptoms yet, so they're anxious to check these two out and get to the bottom of it. I'll keep you posted after they look mine over, hopefully within the next week or two. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | No Hawg thanks for that follow up to Polaris, that is what was needed. Despite all the technical explanations I do not feel that is normal at all and runs the risk of killing someone. Fortunately mine never ever has experienced this problem and the rear brakes were changed around 30K and were bled. I did not have problem before or after the bleeding so I feel mine are normal. I would expect to see a recall come out soon and I'm curious which serial numbers were affected, mine being 3114. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 61
| As for now, I"ve researched the issue in the service manual. While bleeding the rear brake, be sure to bleed the left front caliper also. This is due to the linked brake system. You could have all of the air out of the rear and pushed some to the left front. And have full front brake lever because the right caliper is not part of the linked system. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 127
OHIO | You can add me to this thread.  I noticed the pedal went down the first time I got it out this Spring. Bike was stored in my basement on a lift all winter around 65 degrees. I called dealer, but they said they have never had this problem before. I'm going to bleed them, and if this doesn't correct the problem, I guess I will be making the 2 hour drive to the dealer which I am not fond of doing since I do all my own work and they being far away!! This should not be happening!! Bike was under 300 miles when first noticed. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | Well Polaris decided they didn't need to visit my dealership. Apparently they are aware of the problem and told my dealer to simply bleed the brakes per the service manual instructions. The problem most likely stems from not all the air being purged from the system when initially installed. The front caliper brake line that is linked to the rears goes up from the brake reservoir and then back down to the caliper, and the high spot in the line is most likely where trapped air forms a bubble after sitting over the winter. My service tech was pretty sure the fronts were the culprit, but had to do the complete system twice before totally normal brake performance was restored. Now that all the air is out, it shouldn't reoccur. This was done as a free warranty service, so anyone having the problem should take it back to the dealer. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Mine sat all winter in a unheated garage, unless I am working in there, and then I fire up the torpedo heater. I don't have a spongy pedal, but this does make sense. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 27
| 09 vision i have the same problem now 22K |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 28
Mesa, AZ United States | Had the same problem with my bike and my son's 8 ball. Thanks to Dain I remedied the problem by bleeding the rear brake using the front brake, right side caliper. There are three bleeder ports top, bottom and middle. Use the middle port to bleed it. The reservoir is behind the front wheel inside the fairing and is a little inconvenient to get to but can be done. Takes about 5 minutes and solved my problems. Don't know why this is happening but seems to be quite prevalent. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | I had this same issue on another bike. The brakes were fine until I stored it. Then they got mushy. I would pump the lever and pedal 100 times (or so it seemed) and the braking power would come back. Everything would be fine until I let the bike for more than two weeks. I was convinced it was air, but could not figure out why the brakes worked fine as long as I rode at least once per week. Any longer time between rides and the brakes went mushy.
Here's what fixed it:
I took the caps off the master cylinder reservoirs. I pushed the pistons all the way in on all calipers while watching the reservoirs. I saw bubbles in the reservoir when I pushed one of the front pistons. I put the caps back on and never had a problem again. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Tucson , AZ | There is a problem with the brake system on these bikes.. i have completely replaced all the fluid 6 months ago . We bleed the entire system ... brakes were good. My bike has been down for around 4 months.. Just checked the brakes and the same problem ... pedal goes to the floor. somewhere in the system there is an air leak, allowing moisture and air to enter the system. |
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| Just received speed bleeders in the mail. I had a spongy rear brake pedal after the bike sat for 10 months while i was deployed. Replaced the lower bleeder on the front right caliper, pumped about a pint of fluid through the system, and now have a pedal stiffer that when it was new. Very simple and very effective.
Anyone flushed the DOT4 out of their system and used DOT5? Or is that a bad thing to do? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 9
East Bridgewater, Ma. | I bought an 08 Vision from a private part in December. The bike had been sitting for 4 months and I had the same issue. I purchased a pneumatic brake bleeder from Harbor Freight for $22 bucks. The dealer said it is very common on the 08 Vision with the rear brakes and the only solution is to dont let it sit to long.
The fluid change took 30 minutes. I stick with what the manufacturer recommends with the Dot4. Why take the chance with different different engine oil, oil filters and such. The price of the ride just is not worth the chance. One thing you may want to invest in is an item called a Filtermag (www.shopfiltermag.com). clip it to your oil filter and it collects small microns in the oil. My last oil change on my Kingpin had 5k on the oil and the oil was still pretty clean. Now I have one on my Vision.
Hope this helps |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Memphis,Tn. | My '08 sat for about two months. No pedal. Purged the air using the right brake caliper center bleeder screw.
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
St. Louis, MO United States | Add me to the braking debacle. Went out today just to go up and down the driveway and start getting ready for riding season...
Go down the driveway and press on the rear brake. NADA, ZILCH, NOTHING... No rear brake at all...
So after changing underpants and cleaning up I have to admit joining the no rear brake club. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| they say break fluid is only good for 4 to 5 years. So how old if the fluid Vic puts in the bike.
All air will go to the highest point it will not get trapped in the middle any place. So if you opened your handlebar master cylinder and just barley squeeze the lever and see bubbles then you have air in line. Just wait 30 seconds and just barley squeeze lever again. Now your done from now on every time you apply breaks if there is air it will self bleed.
Like the man said it doesn't happen during riding season so I'm thinking next year take some axle grease and put nice a mount where the line meets the crimped metal sleeve. If no problems then you know air is leaking in at one of the fittings.
By the way auto parts store sells brake fluid test stips to see if you need to change the fluid.
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no rear brakes