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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
Wake Forest, NC | Does anyone know the dealer invoice for the Vision tour modles? That would be helpful negotiating, knowing how much a dealer has for wiggle room on their end.
Dealer quoted me $1000 off MSRP for a Tour Comfort, or Tour Premium, dealer invoice would be helpful in determining how much further I could try to negotiate. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | I purchased my tour premium from an out of state dealer that really really needed to move them off thier floor. I paid $16,777.00
Prior to purchase I gave my local dealer a chance to match this price. After he got done saying that the out of state dealer was crazy for selling a tour premium at this low of a price. He let it slip that the $16,777.00 was a bit over $2000.00 less than invoice. So basically...invoice on a tour premium is right at or just a hair under $19,000.00
Good luck with your negotiating !! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Fargo, ND | According to the Victory web site, MSRP is as follows: 09 Vision Street $18,999 08 Street $18,999 09 Street Premium 21,699 08 Street Premium 20,499 09 Tour 19,999 08 Tour 19,999 09 Tour Comfort 20,499 08 Tour Comfort 20,499 09 Tour Premium 22,699 08 Tour Premium 21,499 09 10th Anniv 28,999
Edited by nohawg 2008-10-30 3:44 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | nohawg - 2008-10-30 1:39 PM
According to the Victory web site, MSRP is as follows: 09 Vision Street $18,999 08 Street $18,999 09 Street Premium 21,699 08 Street Premium 20,499 09 Tour 19,999 08 Tour 19,999 09 Tour Comfort 20,499 08 Tour Comfort 20,499 09 Tour Premium 22,699 08 Tour Premium 21,499 09 10th Anniv 28,999
While good information, it is not the invoice price.
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | RiverRat95533 - 2008-10-30 10:21 AM
Does anyone know the dealer invoice for the Vision tour modles? That would be helpful negotiating, knowing how much a dealer has for wiggle room on their end.
Dealer quoted me $1000 off MSRP for a Tour Comfort, or Tour Premium, dealer invoice would be helpful in determining how much further I could try to negotiate.
RR,
I was able to negotiate down to just over 19,500. I paid cash and was very adamant that I wasn't paying MSRP. This is not to say there wasn't much more room to go down, but I felt very confident and comfortable with the price I paid for my Primo.
I tried for several weeks with many contacts to find out invoice pricing and was unable. So, I hope the info that I provided is good for you. Also, keep in mind that when I nego'd this and the bottom line price from the dealer was X, I tried to ask for an add on or two. They flat told me, NO!
Here is how I negotiated it:
I had an appointment set with the dealer to discuss this. I didn't just walk in. I wanted this to be more of a professional deal than that of a regular .
When I met with the sales rep, I advised him that I was only giving him 5 minutes after negotiation to talk with the manager. If he was not back in that 5 minutes that I would leave. He agreed with hesitation (go figure).
I set my first price and he said, "He'll never go for it". He talked with me for two more minutes. I looked at him and said, point blank, "you have three minutes left! You can discuss this with me for 3 more and lose a sale or take the price to him and see what he says."
The manager did not like my price as it was well under 19k. I gave another number that was barely over 19k (like 100 bucks). Again, "you have 5 minutes, GO!" and again he tried to talk with me. I let him waste 2 minutes and repeated my earlier statement.
He went to the manager and the manager walked out with his bottom line number. I explained what I wanted. He looked at me and said, I am giving you the best price and I don't want to ticky tack anything. You buy it for this or it goes up as we add on parts.
Now, I play poker A LOT and I could read that he was serious and was playing his best cards. I took the deal and have NOT looked back. I have found that I have paid (so far), the best price in Denver for this bike. I DO hope someone found a better price than me, but I haven't seen it yet.
I have found that if you take all the games away from a sales rep (ex. time and torture for him to leave you to "think"), they have little to go on and they must either lean your direction or lose a sale. AT THIS TIME OF YEAR they need a sale more than ever.
I don't know if this helps or not! It did work for me and has been a very good negotiation staple for me with other vehicles including cars. Amazing what they do when you say you are about to leave, "you have 5 minutes and not 2 seconds longer".
Good luck!
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
Wake Forest, NC | Elroy,
Appreciate your reply. So that was 19,5 with the stage one level two, for the tour premium?
My thought was that I should be able to press the dealer and get the tour premium (stage 1 level two and extended warrenty) at the tour comfort msrp. Thats askin the dealer to come down off his 1,000 offered to 2,499. So, a tour Premium, stage one level two, extended warrenty at 20,500, does that sound to far off? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | ElroyJ,
Thanks for the post. I did a better job buying my Trailblazer in 2003 then the Vision in June of 2008. I like the way you operate. I will be using some of your techniques for future purchases. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Here's my take, seeing things from both sides and having been apart of a Victory Dealership.
Most of the current dealers out there from 6-8-10 years ago have taking it in the ass for a LONG time when it came to selling a Vic and making money. Good money. The kind that keeps the doors open keeps his employees paid and happy. There are still alot of dealers out there that are going out of business, why? many reasons but a few are that there just isn't enough money to be made by selling 20-30-40 or if they are lucky 70 bikes a year! Now top it off with having to give the product away because everyone is "connected" via internet and it's dooms day for most Victory dealerships. I know that fair pricing is not what closes the deal for most people. Take into consideration that your dealer if a good one will stand behind you, service your bike with quality technicans and keep you on the road and running if the time occurs. Now of course a bad dealer that can't / wont service your needs should discount so they can go out and a new hopefully better place takes over. Most of the Vic dealers out there that have been around for the long haul, I can GARENTEE have lost more money on Victory then most of you would care to think about. They've dug into their own pockets to keep afloat because they care about this product and believe in it when their accountants have told them to dump it. I talk to MANY GOOD dealers every day and know whats going on, I know who sells what and how much of it.
Granted they shouldn't become the Harley Dealerships that have soaked so many for the past 15-18 years but they are intitled in my opinion to make a good buck.
If you have a good dealership thats by your side do not let pricing alone dictate the sale.
Lloyd | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | Bought my Premium beginning of September it was the last 2008 they had but the 2009's were right around the corner. Showed up with my LT, had them look it over and told them to call me when they had their best price. $18,900 was the price for the bike and they gave me 15% on the accessories I wanted and would install them for free. Intercom and head sets, stage one level one, antenna, bag liners, cover...I got the CeeBailey tall windsheild.
They were going to give me $10,000 trade in on the LT I said I'll sell it myself...it went for $13,500 on Ebay in four hours.
My two cent experience. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 92
West Bend, WI | Lloyd - 2008-10-30 5:33 PM
Here's my take, seeing things from both sides and having been apart of a Victory Dealership.
Most of the current dealers out there from 6-8-10 years ago have taking it in the ass for a LONG time when it came to selling a Vic and making money. Good money. The kind that keeps the doors open keeps his employees paid and happy. There are still alot of dealers out there that are going out of business, why? many reasons but a few are that there just isn't enough money to be made by selling 20-30-40 or if they are lucky 70 bikes a year! Now top it off with having to give the product away because everyone is "connected" via internet and it's dooms day for most Victory dealerships. I know that fair pricing is not what closes the deal for most people. Take into consideration that your dealer if a good one will stand behind you, service your bike with quality technicans and keep you on the road and running if the time occurs. Now of course a bad dealer that can't / wont service your needs should discount so they can go out and a new hopefully better place takes over. Most of the Vic dealers out there that have been around for the long haul, I can GARENTEE have lost more money on Victory then most of you would care to think about. They've dug into their own pockets to keep afloat because they care about this product and believe in it when their accountants have told them to dump it. I talk to MANY GOOD dealers every day and know whats going on, I know who sells what and how much of it.
Granted they shouldn't become the Harley Dealerships that have soaked so many for the past 15-18 years but they are intitled in my opinion to make a good buck.
If you have a good dealership thats by your side do not let pricing alone dictate the sale.
Lloyd, I totally agree with you. Even though I got a great deal on my bike, I always go back to them for service and accessories. They are a great Dealer and have been around a long time. They sell the Polaris line and Kawasaki.
Lloyd | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | dollarbillwi - 2008-10-30 5:43 PM
Lloyd - 2008-10-30 5:33 PM
Here's my take, seeing things from both sides and having been apart of a Victory Dealership.
Most of the current dealers out there from 6-8-10 years ago have taking it in the ass for a LONG time when it came to selling a Vic and making money. Good money. The kind that keeps the doors open keeps his employees paid and happy. There are still alot of dealers out there that are going out of business, why? many reasons but a few are that there just isn't enough money to be made by selling 20-30-40 or if they are lucky 70 bikes a year! Now top it off with having to give the product away because everyone is "connected" via internet and it's dooms day for most Victory dealerships. I know that fair pricing is not what closes the deal for most people. Take into consideration that your dealer if a good one will stand behind you, service your bike with quality technicans and keep you on the road and running if the time occurs. Now of course a bad dealer that can't / wont service your needs should discount so they can go out and a new hopefully better place takes over. Most of the Vic dealers out there that have been around for the long haul, I can GARENTEE have lost more money on Victory then most of you would care to think about. They've dug into their own pockets to keep afloat because they care about this product and believe in it when their accountants have told them to dump it. I talk to MANY GOOD dealers every day and know whats going on, I know who sells what and how much of it.
Granted they shouldn't become the Harley Dealerships that have soaked so many for the past 15-18 years but they are intitled in my opinion to make a good buck.
If you have a good dealership thats by your side do not let pricing alone dictate the sale.
Lloyd, I totally agree with you. Even though I got a great deal on my bike, I always go back to them for service and accessories. They are a great Dealer and have been around a long time. They sell the Polaris line and Kawasaki.
Lloyd
I can vouch for what $Bill is saying...I switched to Bill's dealer...right after I realized the dealer that sold me the bike couldn't service his a$$ with both hands. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 92
West Bend, WI | Vinner1 - 2008-10-30 5:49 PM
dollarbillwi - 2008-10-30 5:43 PM
Lloyd - 2008-10-30 5:33 PM
Here's my take, seeing things from both sides and having been apart of a Victory Dealership.
Most of the current dealers out there from 6-8-10 years ago have taking it in the ass for a LONG time when it came to selling a Vic and making money. Good money. The kind that keeps the doors open keeps his employees paid and happy. There are still alot of dealers out there that are going out of business, why? many reasons but a few are that there just isn't enough money to be made by selling 20-30-40 or if they are lucky 70 bikes a year! Now top it off with having to give the product away because everyone is "connected" via internet and it's dooms day for most Victory dealerships. I know that fair pricing is not what closes the deal for most people. Take into consideration that your dealer if a good one will stand behind you, service your bike with quality technicans and keep you on the road and running if the time occurs. Now of course a bad dealer that can't / wont service your needs should discount so they can go out and a new hopefully better place takes over. Most of the Vic dealers out there that have been around for the long haul, I can GARENTEE have lost more money on Victory then most of you would care to think about. They've dug into their own pockets to keep afloat because they care about this product and believe in it when their accountants have told them to dump it. I talk to MANY GOOD dealers every day and know whats going on, I know who sells what and how much of it.
Granted they shouldn't become the Harley Dealerships that have soaked so many for the past 15-18 years but they are intitled in my opinion to make a good buck.
If you have a good dealership thats by your side do not let pricing alone dictate the sale.
Lloyd, I totally agree with you. Even though I got a great deal on my bike, I always go back to them for service and accessories. They are a great Dealer and have been around a long time. They sell the Polaris line and Kawasaki.
Lloyd
I can vouch for what $Bill is saying...I switched to Bill's dealer...right after I realized the dealer that sold me the bike couldn't service his a$$ with both hands.
Hey Vance, did ya get out today. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
Wake Forest, NC | Loyd,
Appreciate your input, however, here is where I disagree.
Unlike automibiles, where the negotiation process is an expected part of the transaction, motorcycle dealers have for the most part taken on the take it or leave it attitude. I have been in many Harley dealerships where its either take the msrp, or carry yourself out the door and down the street.
Heres the deal, if we as the consumer, are not to try and get the best price we can try to get, than make it simple, Victory set a bottom live price, and everyone gets that deal, end of story. Why should one guy out in Utah get the same bike, $1000 more off than me, AND get his aftermarket parts for 5% less?
Being an informed consumer, and being connected via internet is not doomsday for any dealership. Every dealership has a bottom line they are willing to go to, still pull the profit. Whats doomsday on a sale is when a dealer loses a sale because he is only willing to drop $1,000 off a $22,000 bike, the same deal he offered me for a KingPin when the wife and I started looking. Now, lets be honest, who is taking advantage of who? $1000 off MSRP on a $16,399 bike and $1000 off a $20,000+ bike? I was offered the same $1000 off a kingpin, vision tour comfort and tour deluxe. Tell me, would you accept the same off MSRP between a Ford Focus and a F150?
No, I think in today's economy, we all have to think long and hard at what we are going to purchase. I think that as a consumer we need to demand the same as we would buying a car. The internet and having an idea of negotiating points has not killed the auto industry. Maybe, just maybe, IF the motorcycle industry didn't continue to try and decieve use that our toys, our 800 pound 2 wheeled loves of our lives, truely cost the manufacturer as much to make as a F150 pick up truck........ | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I'm with Lloyd on this one. I spent $21.5K on my Street Primo with the St.1 Level 2 pipes. I got hosed if all you're considering is MSRP, but now I'm taking into consideration the customer service I receive from that dealership and... Wait a min... GAWDAMMIT! I got hosed there too! --->Jokes on me<---- I did ask what MSRP is for that bike when I gave them the check. I still don't feel good to this day about the price point. I coulda, shoulda, woulda, oh well. But I will tell you this, if you're in the Centerville, UT area give them a shout. They're very good. So is Tulsa, OK and Hancock, Maine (best prices on accessories). I would have NO qualms if I had given any of those three my extra bucks. BTW, if all you care about is price of the bike, why don't you just do it the easy way and eBay the bike? You can just as easily email or "fax only" any of the surrounding places for quotes too. Most of them are used to this kind of stuff. You're probably gonna do some traveling if you wanna save some bucks. If you don't wanna buy a wholesale report, I don't think you're gonna find a salesperson here who's willing to share it with you for free. I for one won't offer anything to anyone that might comprimise my earnings. When I shop, I take into consideration the time I waste if I have to go out of my way to make it happen. My time is quite valuable to me and I will often spend the extra $'s to save myself a lot time. But I do understand that buying of this sort is also a sport. Every sale of a 4-wheeled box I buy new ends up the same way. I end up sitting across from a frusterated sales manager in the "tower". On a tangent: I really love the ball-point pen/head game. It's a sick perversion really. Get the pen out and get ready to sign and then stop, put the cap back on and ask a question, become hesitant and kill the momentum. Make them push the sale. It's good to know you can walk. Hmm. Makes me wanna buy a truck again. LOL Mind you, I ONLY do this when they try to play the "4 squares" game or the "us against the sales manager" game. The one time I bought a NEW bike, they didn't play head games and I didn't push back. I'll give them that. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | I guess I was just so used to dealing with Harley that when my dealer offered me $1500 off MSRP I was thrilled. But as has been said, a good dealer is worth his weight in gold. Personally, I look at the price and if it seems fair to me, its OK. Everyone is entitled to a profit, and dealerships are no different. I don't care if someone paid less than I did, or someone else paid more. I feel I got a good deal, I have a good relationship with a great dealer, and I am happy. Probably didn't get the rock bottom price, but when the dealer makes a profit, it keeps him healthy, happy and eager to provide service.
By the way, I get a regular discount on all purchases and service as well, so my total savings in the long run is probably much more. But then I have a great dealer. He seems happy, and I am definitely happy.. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| RiverRat95533 - 2008-10-30 7:16 PM
Loyd,
Appreciate your input, however, here is where I disagree.
Unlike automibiles, where the negotiation process is an expected part of the transaction, motorcycle dealers have for the most part taken on the take it or leave it attitude. I have been in many Harley dealerships where its either take the msrp, or carry yourself out the door and down the street.
Heres the deal, if we as the consumer, are not to try and get the best price we can try to get, than make it simple, Victory set a bottom live price, and everyone gets that deal, end of story. Why should one guy out in Utah get the same bike, $1000 more off than me, AND get his aftermarket parts for 5% less?
Being an informed consumer, and being connected via internet is not doomsday for any dealership. Every dealership has a bottom line they are willing to go to, still pull the profit. Whats doomsday on a sale is when a dealer loses a sale because he is only willing to drop $1,000 off a $22,000 bike, the same deal he offered me for a KingPin when the wife and I started looking. Now, lets be honest, who is taking advantage of who? $1000 off MSRP on a $16,399 bike and $1000 off a $20,000+ bike? I was offered the same $1000 off a kingpin, vision tour comfort and tour deluxe. Tell me, would you accept the same off MSRP between a Ford Focus and a F150?
No, I think in today's economy, we all have to think long and hard at what we are going to purchase. I think that as a consumer we need to demand the same as we would buying a car. The internet and having an idea of negotiating points has not killed the auto industry. Maybe, just maybe, IF the motorcycle industry didn't continue to try and decieve use that our toys, our 800 pound 2 wheeled loves of our lives, truely cost the manufacturer as much to make as a F150 pick up truck........
Well heres the place to agree to disagree.
Car dealers are whores, they make more money on the back side then on the car most of the time. Motorcycles don't have that extention of lenders kickbacks. I'm not saying to pay MSRP on every Victory but to have the dealer cost to base your offer on?? My thoughts are based on the pain I see good dealers go through when owning a Victory dealership. I was there in 1997 when Terry Nesbit "Nation Sales Manager" told every perspective Victory dealer "In 5 years these bikes will sell them selves, they'll be a few hard years but once these things catch you'll all be selling 100 + bikes a year". We all beleived that because we believe in the product and still do. Honestly, did you know about Victory in 1997? I've been there every step of the way for 11 years. I sold the bikes. I'd have customers buy bikes from me states away, and it wasn't because I was the cheapest! Did I discount? Yes. However when a person came through the door pricing with a dealer 6 states away I would ask them to kindly leave.
I'm not trying to change how you think or the way you purchase, those are ussually set in a personality and thats what makes the world go around.
I've got different thoughts to purchaseing, I bought a Truck off our local dealer, I had some expensive problems out of warrenty that would have cost between the 2 issues approx. $2800. That dealer said don't worry I'll take care of it and did. 18 months later I went shopping for a new car for the bride, I shopped around found several for $1500 cheaper then what my local dealer wanted, I bought off my local dealer because he stood behind what he sold me and still does. My wife asked why I bought a more expensive car when I could have had it cheaper? I said if I paid for my repairs last year it would have cost me $2800, he was $1500 more then anyone else so I'm still ahead of the game by $1300 and he bought my business by making good on my truck when he didn't have to and If something happens to yours I'm sure it will be the same way.
I'm now way over my limit of surfing and need to get some work done, Chances are I may not be back to look at this post for a few days or even weeks, but good luck in your purchase and at least your buying a Vic (hopefully).
Lloyd
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Well, if it makes anyone feel any better, I took mine at the price on the sticker. I think the only deal I got was when I transfered plates from my old bike over. They charged me for new plates anyway and then when they figured it out they gave me a check, $10.00 I think. It went toward my purchase of the trunk luggage rack. I guess my want to ride got to me worse than trying to haggle on a brand new bike out the chute. I ain't never looked back. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | RiverRat95533 - 2008-10-30 3:52 PM
Elroy,
Appreciate your reply. So that was 19,5 with the stage one level two, for the tour premium?
My thought was that I should be able to press the dealer and get the tour premium (stage 1 level two and extended warrenty) at the tour comfort msrp. Thats askin the dealer to come down off his 1,000 offered to 2,499. So, a tour Premium, stage one level two, extended warrenty at 20,500, does that sound to far off?
I can't speak to the warranty. But the price would be just about right.
The warranty I am waiting on until the end of the year. I have a 3 year service warranty through the dealership allowing me to worry about that issue later.
Good luck! Let us know the outcome! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 238
SF Bay Area | I am in motorcycle sales. Here are a few of the realities...
Motorcycles are luxury items as far as financing goes, and the lenders think cars are a necessity. Motorcycles are harder to finance and the interest rates are higher. Flooring interest continues to climb, making it harder for a dealership to survive... it has recently become a tough business. Japanese bike dealerships do a volume business, and have tons of competition. Most import bike dealerships make most of their new bike sales profits on the new, scarce bikes.... like the Ninja 250, Versys, WR250X, CBR1000RR Repsol, etc., with their most profitable bikes being used bikes (not consignments). The other new bikes are more than likely haggled to a price that both can live with. Dealerships make additional profit from back-end products like extended warranties, GAP insurance, etc.
Victory bikes are a different story... with fewer dealers, price shopping has become a lot easier if you use the internet, but is we are to want these to truly be "high-end" American motorcycles, they should not be discounted to the point that the dealer regrets selling the brand, or (worst case) goes tits-up with profits unable to support payroll and overhead. We are losing Vic dealers at an alarming rate. OUr bikes are not "cheap" bikes, and are American made. Ironically, many I have spoken with want to earn top dollar, but want to buy a motorcycle at or near cost... and a few years later is pissed because their dealership has closed.
So, here's the deal... in a perfect world a Vic dealer asks full MSRP, and adds "destination fees", sales tax, registration & doc fees. A customer asks for a discount, the dealer takes a grand off the price of the Vic bike (off MSRP), throws in a helmet and the deal is done. The customer gets a "feel good" discount, and the dealer can make a modest profit, and make his/her payroll.
In a f*cked up world, a customer finds out what the alleged dealer cost is (which is usually off due to needing to add actual freight w/fuel surcharges, actual prep costs, and uncrating and assembly costs (many contract this out), surface trucking from the un-crating company to the dealership (if this applies) advertising, flooring interest, and more... and offers the dealer $200 more than the supposed "dealer cost", making the deal a negative deal to the dealer after factoring in the real costs.
What people fail to realize is what it takes to keep a dealership in the black, you need a reasonable amount of new bike sales profit. Here are some possible sources of profit:
Bike sales (new & used)
Parts & accessories
Service
Loan points
Bike leasing (yes, it exists)
Extended warranties
Service contracts, including tire.
Selling GAP insurance
Selling insurance
Storage fees
Bonus money from manufacturers
Manufacturers hold backs
etc.
Here are some of the expenses a dealership incurs:
Rent or mortgage
Utilities
Building maintenance
Janitorial services & supplies
Flooring interest
Credit line interest
Advertising, inc. internet
Payroll & commissions
Legal services
Accounting
Workers comp insurance
Matching payroll taxes
401k matching
Theft losses, damaged goods
Insurance
Security, alarms
Credit card fees (merchant)
Printing, forms, office supplies, etc.
Bad check losses
Training
etc.
So, what would you consider a reasonable profit for a $20k motorcycle? $1000? $750? $500? $250? or ?
In my opinion, buying any Vic is a great deal, a great value for a premium American motorcycle. I do not pay retail... but I do allow my dealer to make a reasonable profit, to stay healthy and to be there for me. If I wanted an even better value, I would buy a non-current model, one that I felt would have a hold back from the manufacturer.
IMO, of course...
- Mike
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
Wake Forest, NC | Lloyd,
I hear where you are comming from, really. This topic has been very interesting, seeing just how varied peoples opinions are. In asking my dealer invioce, its not my intention to bring hardship on any dealer, I have had a great experience through the dealer I am currently in contact with. Great group of guys, professional shop, and top notch mechanics.
I am interested in the wiggle room they have to close the deal. Financing through the dealer has gone to hell over the last few months, intrest rates have shot up a rediculous ammount, and I the buyer, am going to take that one in my pocket. In talking with my dealer, I hear his frustration about how many of his sales have recently walked when they get far enough into the transaction, and find that a person with a credit score of 700+ is going to be stuck with interest rates over 11%.
Honestly, I think its fair to believe that a dealer willing to discount $1,000 off a $16,000 KingPin should be willing to discount a bit more off a bike over $20,000. Times suck, and both sides need to meet in the middle.
Perhaps I should have worded my original question a bit differently, but I am glad that it sparked so many varied responces. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 15
Nebraska | This has been a great thread and VERY informative coming from people IN the business. I agree whole heartedly that to me service after the sale is just as more important and haggleing over the price.
Having owned HD and Honda's in the past most of the deals were very clinical. We haggled, money changed hands and I rode way, heard from the salesman once after the sale, but that was it. If/when I would go in for service or to by stuff, they owners and sales did give a crap I was there cause I was'nt dropping $$ on another bike.
I receintly bought a 08 Street, with S1L2 exhaust and the IPOD controller, it was a demo with less than 5k miles on it for about $15.5K + they gave me 5500 on my trade that the local HD dealer woyld ony give me 3 for. I think I got a good deal but the best part of the whole deal is was the "after care" from the dealer. The salememan and the owner love victory and it shows they ride... rain or shine and I've beem called twice in the last month to ride. I've gone up there a couple of time for accessories and maintance tweaks and the owner comes out of his office greats me and the wife. I was'nt just a number like I was on previous bikes.
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Cruiser
Posts: 266
Hartland, , WI | buddahead - 2008-10-31 12:38 AM
I am in motorcycle sales. Here are a few of the realities...
Motorcycles are luxury items as far as financing goes, and the lenders think cars are a necessity. Motorcycles are harder to finance and the interest rates are higher. Flooring interest continues to climb, making it harder for a dealership to survive... it has recently become a tough business. Japanese bike dealerships do a volume business, and have tons of competition. Most import bike dealerships make most of their new bike sales profits on the new, scarce bikes.... like the Ninja 250, Versys, WR250X, CBR1000RR Repsol, etc., with their most profitable bikes being used bikes (not consignments). The other new bikes are more than likely haggled to a price that both can live with. Dealerships make additional profit from back-end products like extended warranties, GAP insurance, etc.
Victory bikes are a different story... with fewer dealers, price shopping has become a lot easier if you use the internet, but is we are to want these to truly be "high-end" American motorcycles, they should not be discounted to the point that the dealer regrets selling the brand, or (worst case) goes tits-up with profits unable to support payroll and overhead. We are losing Vic dealers at an alarming rate. OUr bikes are not "cheap" bikes, and are American made. Ironically, many I have spoken with want to earn top dollar, but want to buy a motorcycle at or near cost... and a few years later is pissed because their dealership has closed.
So, here's the deal... in a perfect world a Vic dealer asks full MSRP, and adds "destination fees", sales tax, registration & doc fees. A customer asks for a discount, the dealer takes a grand off the price of the Vic bike (off MSRP), throws in a helmet and the deal is done. The customer gets a "feel good" discount, and the dealer can make a modest profit, and make his/her payroll.
In a f*cked up world, a customer finds out what the alleged dealer cost is (which is usually off due to needing to add actual freight w/fuel surcharges, actual prep costs, and uncrating and assembly costs (many contract this out), surface trucking from the un-crating company to the dealership (if this applies) advertising, flooring interest, and more... and offers the dealer $200 more than the supposed "dealer cost", making the deal a negative deal to the dealer after factoring in the real costs.
What people fail to realize is what it takes to keep a dealership in the black, you need a reasonable amount of new bike sales profit. Here are some possible sources of profit:
Bike sales (new & used)
Parts & accessories
Service
Loan points
Bike leasing (yes, it exists)
Extended warranties
Service contracts, including tire.
Selling GAP insurance
Selling insurance
Storage fees
Bonus money from manufacturers
Manufacturers hold backs
etc.
Here are some of the expenses a dealership incurs:
Rent or mortgage
Utilities
Building maintenance
Janitorial services & supplies
Flooring interest
Credit line interest
Advertising, inc. internet
Payroll & commissions
Legal services
Accounting
Workers comp insurance
Matching payroll taxes
401k matching
Theft losses, damaged goods
Insurance
Security, alarms
Credit card fees (merchant)
Printing, forms, office supplies, etc.
Bad check losses
Training
etc.
So, what would you consider a reasonable profit for a $20k motorcycle? $1000? $750? $500? $250? or ?
In my opinion, buying any Vic is a great deal, a great value for a premium American motorcycle. I do not pay retail... but I do allow my dealer to make a reasonable profit, to stay healthy and to be there for me. If I wanted an even better value, I would buy a non-current model, one that I felt would have a hold back from the manufacturer.
IMO, of course...
- Mike
VisionriderDean - 2008-10-31 8:55 AM
This has been a great thread and VERY informative coming from people IN the business. I agree whole heartedly that to me service after the sale is just as more important and haggleing over the price.
Having owned HD and Honda's in the past most of the deals were very clinical. We haggled, money changed hands and I rode way, heard from the salesman once after the sale, but that was it. If/when I would go in for service or to by stuff, they owners and sales did give a crap I was there cause I was'nt dropping $$ on another bike.
I receintly bought a 08 Street, with S1L2 exhaust and the IPOD controller, it was a demo with less than 5k miles on it for about $15.5K + they gave me 5500 on my trade that the local HD dealer woyld ony give me 3 for. I think I got a good deal but the best part of the whole deal is was the "after care" from the dealer. The salememan and the owner love victory and it shows they ride... rain or shine and I've beem called twice in the last month to ride. I've gone up there a couple of time for accessories and maintance tweaks and the owner comes out of his office greats me and the wife. I was'nt just a number like I was on previous bikes.
Great points both of you...and I think I'm an example of both points. Got a dealer that gave me a good discount price for the bike, I felt they made decent money on the transaction. I don't ever what a guy not to be able to put food on the table and pay the bills...I just don't want to be the buyer that sends the kids to college, if you know what I mean.
But then it came time for their service department to perform and put on my accessories and they stumble hard on their a$$...so I actually had the majority of accessories and the recall work taken care of at a different dealer that actually had mechanics working in a nice garage that knew what they were doing...and they'll continued to get my service work. Too bad it was two stop shopping for me to find the correct dealer.
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New user
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arcola il | I looked at three dealers and the more I worked on them the better it got,paid $17200 for a tour premium with st1 level1 and highway pegs the bike had 510miles on it but the nice thing was,the first service had been done. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I paid MSRP and let my awesome local dealer do all the maintenance by the book. (First vehicle I have ever done that with.) At 19,500 miles I probably have one of the best running Visions in the world. Coincidence? | |
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New user
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| I agree with Lloyd on this one. I use to own a dealership not Voctory but can relate to his comments. I had a smaller shop selling on of the major metric brands and sold about 150 to 175 units a year. I made hardly any money on new unit sales, due to the product being hored out in my area. When you factored in all of the over head associated with keeping that new product on display (floor plan interest, emplyee salaries, processing fees, etc.) we hardly made a dime. I had to make profit off parts & accessories and service. It was constant pain dealing people people doing their internet shopping and willingness to drive 150 miles away to buy a bike just to save $100. What did they save anyway? Then they wanted to bring that unit which they did not buy from me back to my shop for service because they did not want to drive the 150 miles to where they bought it. Granted we had some great loyal customers and I thanks every one of them for the business they gave me and there was probably more good customers than bad but it was always that one "A" Hole you remebered each day you went home. After 4 years I decided it was not worth the hassle and I closed the shop and went back into my old field of Oracle ERP consulting where I can make a decent living and not have to work 10 to 12 hours a day 7 days a week, and I think may family appreciated it too. I chased my of being a business owner but found it not gratifying enough. My point is give your local dealer a break man, and let him save a little cash you have no idea how hard it is to make a profit in this business until you have walked a mile in your dealer's shoes. Vic dealers don't have the high profit margin full retail type stores the Harely shops do where they make more money on the aftermarket crap than they do the bikes, its a whole different ball game. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 495
Carrollton, TX | SongFan - 2008-11-02 8:08 AM I paid MSRP and let my awesome local dealer do all the maintenance by the book. (First vehicle I have ever done that with.) At 19,500 miles I probably have one of the best running Visions in the world. Coincidence? Ditto on that SongFan!! I put down a deposit, waited 4 months and paid MSRP. I have 23,500 miles on my Vision and not one problem. My dealer’s service department is staffed with real pros. My dealer respects and appreciates my business and when I need service on my bike I get preferred treatment which is worth a lot to me. If you give value you will receive value. The bottom line is you get what you pay for but you do need to apply some discernment in who you do business with. My Grandfather used to say “The bitterness of a poor product or service lingers long after the sweetness of a low price”. I have owned several businesses and I made sure the clients that allowed me to receive value in the relationship got exceptional value from my company in many ways. Good customers are hard to fine and when you get one you want to keep them. I would send people who were only focused on price and not value to my competitors to speed up their demise. Most of them would end up doing business with me after my competitors went out of business and were then happy to pay for good service and value after experiencing what they got out of their last business relationship.
Edited by Spock 2008-11-02 10:37 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | I'm sure most of the early purchases of the new Vision were at list price, I know that's what I paid.
The folks that are getting the discounts now should be happy, your getting a great motorcycle at a pretty good discount. My hope for the future is that those that buy the Vision like the Vision that way the resale price will stay up because they are not dumping them. There were only ~2500 made in the first year, so my hope is there will be folks that want mine when I'm ready to get a new one. If your looking for more of a discount than what the dealer is wanting to give you, then my advise is to move on, don't buy something your going to be unhappy with. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 353
| SongFan - 2008-11-02 6:08 AM
I paid MSRP and let my awesome local dealer do all the maintenance by the book. (First vehicle I have ever done that with.) At 19,500 miles I probably have one of the best running Visions in the world. Coincidence?
Yup, Besides my '08 Vision, I also have an '05 8-Ball with about 19k miles, my dealer did the first 2 services on the 8-Ball and I've done the rest, changed to full synthetic and increased my oil change interval to 5k, so far I've had no issues and the bike runs great.
I'm doing the same with the Vision. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 95
Alberta, Canada | $21,500. for a Premium comfort with an extended 4 year warranty. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
Fate, TX (near DFW) | Great points from a lot of different perspectives. Motorcycle buying should not be compared to cage buying. Motorcycle buying for me is very emotional (read impulse). I have to temper my motorcycle buying enthusiasm with knowledge. It is a balancing act where I don't want the dreaded buyer's remorse because I found out I payed way too much but I also want the dealership to be profitable. Here is what I do and have done more times than I can count. I first research the crap out of the motorcycle I want (like lurking in the forums...I still haven't bought my Vision yet) and then turn to the internet and research pricing via cycletrader.com. That let's me get an idea of bottom dollar. Then I call local dealers and find one willing to let me test ride. That dealer is now at the top of my list. I get to know the salesman prior to showing up for the test ride by several phone conversations setting up the demo. I ALWAYS tell the salesman that we have other bikes to test ride and we will not be making a decision that day (it usually is true). They will usually ask which ones so have your list ready. After test riding, I casually ask "what type of discount I could expect if this were the bike I were to buy" at which point the salesman will usually throw out a discount amount. I do not ask any further questions with regards to pricing and only ask bike related questions that day. After I leave (allow several hours to pass), I will call back and ask warranty / extended warranty information. Tell the salesman that you really appreciate him/her answering your questions and that you are still in the bike decission making process. The next day, call the salesman and ask about freight and prep charges as well as financing questions but do not commit that you have decided on that bike. Next day, call and ask for an out the door price and financing details if that is the route you plan on going. This is the point where I will mention that I noticed a dealer ____ states away offering same bike for ______ amount. I do not say any more as I want the ball to be in their court. Most of the time I get "We can't possibly sell that low" to which I reply "what is the best you can do?". Now sometimes I have gotten a silly high price at which point I politely say thank you and move on to another dealer....but most of the time, because I have developed a relationship with the salesman, I get an honest low price to which I reply "sold" and I then commend the salesman on a job well done and inform him that I will buy all of my accessories through him as well. I know that there are some dealers / salesmen on this thread and I do not want to offend any of you. However, I also don't want to pay MSRP unless that is what ALL the dealers are selling at. Several of my recent bike purchases were done this way and I can tell you that the dealership got all of my service and accessory business. Maybe it is a point of pride.....people always ask you "how much you paid for the bike" but nobody has ever asked how much the extra chrome cost. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 102
Madison, AL | I paid 22,500 for my bike, out the door. It had the exhaust upgrade, GPS, included the IPOD connector, extended warranty, and first free service. I have since spent thousands more, and go back to the dealer each time. You know you buy too much stuff when they give you a free catalog, hat, tee-shirt, and gremlin bell. I have since bought the wind deflectors, xm radio, CB/Intercom, 2-Helment mikes, Some victory clothes, solo tour pack, luggage set, trunk carpet, trunk mirror, shock air pump, bag organizers, trunk organizer, fork mounted riding lights, oil stick with temp, bike cleaning stuff, helment stuff, gloves, (Utopia seat but not available through dealer at the time, and LLoydzs intake and fuel control), Victory Transition sun glasses, victory patches, motor mount chrome, trunk plate cover thing, HID light, Plenty of Labor, and probably some other stuff I can't think of right now. I plan on getting the gattling tips, the trunk rack, and the American Flag that goes on that. But boy do I save money on gas, ha, ha, ha. I just realized how much money I have spent and think I'm about due for another free hat.
Edited by david.terry 2008-11-04 12:19 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
Fate, TX (near DFW) | Wow David, when someone mentioned dealers struggling, you didn't have to take it upon yourself to single-handedly keep your local dealer in business (LOL)! I sure hope you get an invite to the Christmas party. On a serious note, it is customers like you that will help a service oriented dealer stay in business. I hope that the Vic dealers take a long look at HD dealers and realize that the bigger profit is after the sale of the bike as long as you keep your customers first and transform the "box" dealer into a destinataion. If they do that, selling only 75 to 100 bikes per year could be a formula to a very successfull business model with the potential of having 750 to 1000 happy customers after 10 years.... returning for accessories, riding apparel, engine mods and service and possibly a new bike. I know that the bikes I have purchased are a drop in the bucket compared to the "rest of the story" making each bike "my own". | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 102
Madison, AL | At first, I fully planned on a road glide or another ultra classic, however, the way I was treated at the Harley Davidson Dealership, made me start shopping around. I have since converted 4 harley riders, so there is the potential to lose more than one customer.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 7
Fate, TX (near DFW) | I owned an 04 Roadglide and put a little over 30K miles on it the 2 years I owned it. It does not hold a candle to the Vision. | |
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Dealer invoice