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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 6
Salem, OR United States | A short time ago I installed a Lloyd's Timing Gear along with a top air filter and a Hi-Flo air filter in front. These are my first modifications to my 2014 Vision. The timing gear was installed at +4 as is normal. On leaving the shop I noticed, what I presumed to be, a detonation knock. "This knock" occurred only between 2600 rpm and 2900 rpm with the engine under load. Presuming there is an engine knock I have been retarding the timing, on the gear I am now at -1 and I still have the "knock' and I am starting to doubt my diagnosis.
I call it a knock because it does not sound like a ping. It sounds to me more like a thump than a ping or knock; at first I thought it was just the way the engine sounds with the top air filter installed. As you might be able to tell I don't have a lot of experience with big V-twin engines. I need some input before I do too much more with this thing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Go to an auto store and get some octane boost additive. Boost your gas to 95-97 octane and see if your still getting that knock. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 44
Okeana, OH United States | Having installed the new air filters and timing wheel, you have crossed the line of the number of modifications you can do without adding a fuel controller. Call Rylan Vos at The Vic Shop in IA and talk to him. He might have a work around for you and I know he recommends only a +2 in timing for a Vision. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 50
Virginia Beach, VA | The adjustable timing wheel allows for adjustments to the timing up to 2500 RPM. The ECU controls timing from that point. A PCV can also adjust timing above 2500RPM. So, if you are having PING after 2500 RPM as you stated, it's not the Timing Wheel. As noted in a previous post, you may need a Fuel Controller with both air filters installed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Take the top filter out. Set wheel at +3 Rylan says vision run best there. Use 91 octane even try 89. You should be good. Your letting to much air in and not enough gasoline.
If you want the top filter then you need a PCV. Do the filter "now" if you get PCV put it back in.
Octane boost is nothing more than snake oil. you have no need for it. Beside the higher the octane the hotter your motor runs and the more glazing you will get. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 6
Salem, OR United States | Thank you very much for your help Gentlemen, I greatly appreciate it.
I have to say I am very disappointed with Lloyd's Motorworkz, their local outlet and the person from the NY shop I corresponded with. Any of them could have given me the information you did and should have done so, but did not. Anyway I have a better idea of what i need to do now. Thank you. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | The octane boost is ONLY to help you determine if the noise you are hearing is knocking or something else. If you run 95 and still hear it, it's not knocking. I'm not recommending you keep running the high octane to fix the problem.
The timing wheel affects the timing throughout the whole RPM range. The ECU does not compensate for it at any RPM. A PCV will only allow timing changes @ 2500 and above.
Edited by Nozzledog 2015-08-04 8:55 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Brian1159 - 2015-08-04 10:39 AM
A short time ago I installed a Lloyd's Timing Gear along with a top air filter and a Hi-Flo air filter in front. These are my first modifications to my 2014 Vision. The timing gear was installed at +4 as is normal. On leaving the shop I noticed, what I presumed to be, a detonation knock. "This knock" occurred only between 2600 rpm and 2900 rpm with the engine under load. Presuming there is an engine knock I have been retarding the timing, on the gear I am now at -1 and I still have the "knock' and I am starting to doubt my diagnosis.
I call it a knock because it does not sound like a ping. It sounds to me more like a thump than a ping or knock; at first I thought it was just the way the engine sounds with the top air filter installed. As you might be able to tell I don't have a lot of experience with big V-twin engines. I need some input before I do too much more with this thing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
I don't think you're hearing any ping or knock. I would put the timing wheel at +2. A fuel controller may be a good idea at this point. Unplug your O2 sensors in any case.
What you are hearing is the "thump" of the engine sucking in air through that top filter, much like what one would hear on an old muscle car with the air cleaner lid flipped over, or an open element filter. The RPM range you are hearing it in gives it away. You are hearing an intake resonance that the stock setup muffles. With the top filter installed, there is nothing to muffle it.
You're good. Set that wheel back to somewhere between +2 and +4. You don't need any octane booster, but you may need to run 91 octane, especially in hot weather.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Nozzledog - 2015-08-04 8:43 PM
The timing wheel affects the timing throughout the whole RPM range. The ECU does not compensate for it at any RPM.
That is not correct. The ECU varies the timing above 2500 RPM. Furthermore, if you get Lloydz reprogrammed ECU, it has optimized timing and fuel curves.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 6
Salem, OR United States | "What you are hearing is the "thump" of the engine sucking in air through that top filter, much like what one would hear on an old muscle car with the air cleaner lid flipped over, or an open element filter. The RPM range you are hearing it in gives it away. You are hearing an intake resonance that the stock setup muffles. With the top filter installed, there is nothing to muffle it."
That was my first impression, but until I got the feed back from this forum I was not sure. I am considering installing a ECU, not sure about the brand yet. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Brian1159 - 2015-08-05 10:13 AM
"What you are hearing is the "thump" of the engine sucking in air through that top filter, much like what one would hear on an old muscle car with the air cleaner lid flipped over, or an open element filter. The RPM range you are hearing it in gives it away. You are hearing an intake resonance that the stock setup muffles. With the top filter installed, there is nothing to muffle it."
That was my first impression, but until I got the feed back from this forum I was not sure. I am considering installing a ECU, not sure about the brand yet.
Did you mean to say "installing a fuel controller" instead of ECU? If you think you might get Lloydz cams, then I recommend having Lloydz reprogram your ECU. Doing so won't gain you much of anything with the stock cams, but really wakes the thing up if you have Lloydz cams.
There are two popular fuel controllers on the market for the Vision. One is Lloydz VFCIII and the other is the Power Commander V. The VFCIII can be tuned on the fly very effectively without a dyno. Of course, you can spend the money for a dyno tune if you want to. The PCV has to be tuned on a dyno or you have to add the autotune and spend time tweeking and accepting the values until you get to where you need to be. The VFCIII is happy at all elevations, but the PCV gets weird when it is set for low elevations and you ride up into the high elevations. Some people put two programs into the PCV with a switch to choose, so they can switch from low elevation to high elevation just for that reason.
If you stay with the stock exhaust or use an aftermarket exhaust that emulates the flow characteristics of the stock exhaust (but with more sound), the VFCIII and Lloydz ECU reprogram will work as well or better than the Power Commander. The VFCIII can only add fuel above the stock ECU program.
There are some aftermarket exhausts on the market that modify (hurt) the flow characteristics so much that you then need the Power Commander V to compensate. People will tell you that you need the PCV for it's ability to subtract fuel at some points and add fuel at other points. There is only one reason that you would need to subtract fuel. The exhaust system is flowing LESS than the stock system at that RPM range. Think about it.
The stock system is not restrictive on a 106. It's just quiet. Many aftermarket systems struggle just to match the torque curve produced by the stock system, and they require you to use the PCV to smooth out the bumps caused by the aftermarket exhaust.
Before you choose a fuel controller, think about what exhaust system you want first.
If the seller of that aftermarket exhaust system tells you that you "need" the PCV instead of the VFCIII with their exhaust, think about what they are really telling you..................
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2015-08-05 11:17 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | rdbudd - 2015-08-04 8:02 PM
Nozzledog - 2015-08-04 8:43 PM
The timing wheel affects the timing throughout the whole RPM range. The ECU does not compensate for it at any RPM.
That is not correct. The ECU varies the timing above 2500 RPM. Furthermore, if you get Lloydz reprogrammed ECU, it has optimized timing and fuel curves.
Ronnie
All of wich are affected by any changes you make with a timing wheel. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| maybe this will help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3_RjEdk5ZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYZKoPsX-uo
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Vision Timing