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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Not looking for a debate per se or looking to rile things up (maybe) but here are my thoughts on oil changes:
I changed my own oil at 500 based on book. The first one early on, I agree with for the break in portion of it all. But I am really starting to wonder about the whole break in thing anyway. I am not so sure that most of this is just cut and paste and the mind numbing drone is doing it that way just because, "THATS THE WAY WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT." I don't really see the point of changing it that often. When I talked to the Polaris Engineer I had asked him about how many miles they figure a person puts on a bike, he said their rule of thumb is around 2000 I think. This would then give them about an extra 500 miles to play with and make a generalized statement to change oil at 2500 for the masses. This would put a "normal riding person changing their oil within a one year time span and only 2500 miles. So, to me personally, they did a good job of getting the owner to change their oil at least once a year if not twice. Since I am over 1800 miles on mine in 1 month and 5 days. I will be like tralphaz and go probably further than 5000 between oil changes and try around 7k to 8k. I used to be of the mind set at 3500 miles between auto changes and the more I read, I found out that a lot of it is marketing and generalizations. The "normal person" only puts about 12,000 or less miles on a vehicle per year. I however, put more like 30,000 per year. So, I am outside the norm, naw really, following the own manufacturers recommendations I can go 7500 miles between changes in my car, which once again is for the "norm". If my GMC dually 1 ton can go 10,000 to 13,000 plus between oil changes based on the oil meter and their book recommendations, and big rigs can go 20,000 to 30,000 between oil changes, I don't think I am that far off. Just trying to use a little common sense to all of this.
I have seen quite a few quys that use AMSOIL or MOBIL 1 Synthetics or other brands, and I see where they send off samples to a some place that will analyze their oil for them. Once it hits certain numbers I don't remember which, then they will change it, until then, they keep right on going. If memory serves me right, they are getting way over 20,000 on most of them.
For all you Harley riders, it seems that Buckeye is claiming that 2,500 is far outside the reach of the Harley's. He seems happy to go 2500 miles and get it changed. What is the recommended range for Harley's? My buddy rides his 2001 Harley Heritage Classic Softail about 1500 miles a year and changes his own oil. What a pain especially the way he describes it. Pull the oil filter and oil runs all over the front of his motor case. He has to tip the bike straight up or tilt it away from the kickstand to get it to drain. I love changing mine. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I'd be real interested to know how often the Vision guy changed his oil during the 11 day/11,000 mile Iron Butt Rally. Also would like to know if the original tires made the whole trip.
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Tourer
Posts: 562
SC, Bluffton | It is all about warranty, not about how often we feel it should be changed. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 173
Prescott Valley, AZ | I also am a bit outside the "norm". For the past 8.5 years I have had a 65mile round trip to work and back six days a week, year round. If it wasn't below freezing or wet when I left the house I was on two wheels. My current ride is an 05 Nomad (traded an 03 Nomad to get it), call me anal but I have changed the oil (and filter of course) at 1500 miles religously. Primary reason is that most all of the miles I rack up are at 65-75 mph and it does in fact look dirty by that time. As good as the oils are these days they are still designed to lubricate and pick up impurities that live in their house. A mere $20.00 bucks every four weeks or so seems like well spent insurance to me. Once I get the Tour Premium I've orderd I may relook this as my comute is now only 14 miles round trip but I still think you can't go wrong by changing your engine's life blood a little more often than the recommended intervals. |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | During the warranty, at least the first part of it, I do the oil changes at the recommended interval, at least up to 10,000 miles.
After 10K I tend to do 5000-6000 mile intervals. I check everything at these intervals. For my habits, this seems to work just fine. Never had a problem on any vehicle car or bike doing this. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | with the break in, whats with the 500 miles going no faster than 55? doesn't the factory put these things thru the paces first? |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I sincerely doubt they crank every machine and let it run at varying speeds. Like any good company they probably take a "Sample" and run them through their paces. Most everything is CNC made or machine cut or stamped, with very close tolerances. I can't imagine that any of these bikes wouldn't be race ready right out of the box. Unsure what you are talking about the 55 mph. Book doesn't reference any speed limit. What it references is 1/3 throttle input, 1/2 and 3/4 throttle input for extended timeframes. It doesn't say anything about not revving it to full throttle, just not for extended timeframes and vary speed and throttle input. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I was told that every motor is bench tested after assembly and every bike was dyno'd when completed.
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I am sure they crank every motor just to be sure they work. Who wants to send a bike that doesn't run? I am not sure about the dyno part unless there is a bench location before it gets stuck in the bike, where they can just drop it and see. Otherwise, to time consuming and cost prohibitive. I didn't see a spec sheet for a dyno run when I got my bike. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| Now you are forgetting some of most important info for your oil changes. What are your driving conditions. Dusty wind blown dust and air filter not properly maintained? I would be real careful how far you go.
The company states a number that will cover all the bases of different drivers within given parameters. I change my Amsoil every 5,000 miles and check it often for level and condition. I will not go way over because to me the oil is th blood of my bike and I don't treat my blood like crap.
A simple question(s)? Are you doing this to save money? To save our dependency on foreign oil? To save our environment? |
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Tourer
Posts: 353
| Lemme stir the pot one more time, I think the 2500 mile interval is overkill, my wife's VTX 1300 manual places the interval for her bike at 8k, the Vic on the other hand has a larger oil capacity and semi-synthetic oil, the VTX recommends regular M/C oil. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I am basing my thought pattern on just Good Old Fashioned Common Sense. This is something I think that is highly overlooked on our part, as being consumers. How many miles have you driven or put on a vehicle, whether you have driven it or not? Then, what has been your own personal oil change regimen. Mine own personal driving common sense, puts my oil change meter in this range. Just like tralphaz, what's the point if it is all marketing and money anyway.
Let me look at this from a marketing business point of view. The business, Polaris/Victory, would like at a minimum to have the oil changed approximately once every year. Knowing that most "normal people" quit riding when it starts to get cold. They have their winter storage procedures you should follow. Which includes changing the oil before storage, and then changing it again when you pull it out, if it was possible humidity got to it. I would say to the last part, take it on a ride, let it get to operating temperature for 10 minutes which should have gotten rid of just about any condensation at all inside the crankcase. The change schedule I just quoted for the Normal person puts the miles on the bike around 2000 per year, and gets the oil changed, before they put it into storage. I can agree with that. I don't think mine will go into storage. Tralphaz, probably won't put his into storage either. Then if I can get you to buy more oil with my name on it that is money for my bottom line, business thinking again. If I also get you to change it more often, my dealer makes more money, which also brings you back into the dealer for other items/products.
So, in answer to your question. I am doing this and saving money, this idea alone is not to skimp on the almighty dollar. It is just common sense. To save our dependency on foreign oil, I think not, oil helps our economy go round'. I have bought synthetic for the first time, just for my bike, just to see if I can make even more common sense. To save our environment, I do pretty good at recycling used motor oil, but if I don't REALLY need to change it so often, then yes, I am saving the environment.
Tralphaz, if memory serves me well, there is only one spot on that bike to change oil, right? The crankcase and primary etc. are all in the one case, right? Which would mimic the current Victory Vision. |
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Tourer
Posts: 353
| pollolittle - 2007-11-05 9:44 AM
Tralphaz, if memory serves me well, there is only one spot on that bike to change oil, right? The crankcase and primary etc. are all in the one case, right? Which would mimic the current Victory Vision.
Correct, the tranny and engine share oil. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | Your right common sense goes a long way in everything. My Kingpin has 30,000 plus miles on it, I change oil around 5000 miles, not one issue. The one thing I don't do and that is short trips, like under five miles. If I was doing that, I would probably change more often. I use a fully synthetic 20w-50 oil. I was just on the AmsOil website looking at their oil and see they have a new 10w40 that is recommended by Victory. I may use that oil in my new Vision and continue with the 5000 mile changes. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Here's a picture of the dyno lady at Spirit Lake. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Galleries_IndividualPhoto.aspx?Gallery=1098&Main=12&Sub=22&Image=33063&PostBack=1&Media=1 |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Well, I guess you are right! I would have never thought she could do that. They must have more than one person doing this job, because the next photo or so down states the facility puts out a vehicle every other minute. Which would put her way behind. If she cranks it up to 80 and leaves it there for four minutes, I am considering my machine broke in when I get it. My statement is for naught, since I now have over 2000 miles on it. |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | As someone pointed out, the Victory's share the engine oil with the Transmission so the "type" of driving should really be considered too and probably the reason for the closer intervals. On my other bikes as example that have a dry clutch, the result is the recommended service intervals are 6000 miles. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | I am sure they crank every motor just to be sure they work. Who wants to send a bike that doesn't run? I am not sure about the dyno part unless there is a bench location before it gets stuck in the bike, where they can just drop it and see. Otherwise, to time consuming and cost prohibitive. I didn't see a spec sheet for a dyno run when I got my bike.
Not to hijack the thread, but I work for GM and we run every engine at wide-open throttle for several minutes before it ever goes in a car/truck. This helps spot leaks and any other problems before it ever gets into a vehicle. I would imagine that pretty much every vehicle manufacturer does the same thing. Even with the cost of the test room and personel for testing, it's still cheaper than doing an engine recall for a problem that could have been caught during assembly. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Im with Rebel, if everything hasnt seated by the time it goes in the box, it never will. used to be, the first oil change was to remove any stray particles left behind from machining and breakin. I would be more inclined to replace the filter early than the oil.
The big thing is the warranty. Untill we find out how Victory will handle warranty claims I plan to follow their rcommendations. If you plan on doing your own. Make sure you save reciepts and doccument milage. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | machined "particles" is the only reason I can see for the 500 mile change. With the recommended 91 oct, that would have to be one of those "stickers" the oil companies make them put on. How in the heck does 4 points make a difference? Say, you devolope a problem, what the heck are they going to do, void the warrenty because you used 87? SCAM! then again, everyones out to get my money! If i don't get my vision or some kind of info, im un-sheathing the K-Bar and going into stealth mode. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
cambridge springs pa | All I can say is AMSOIL,AMSOIL,AMSOIL! I have used Amsoil for the past 15 years in every motorized vehicle I'ved owned. I changed my 06 Kingpin to Amsoil at 2500 miles, to make sure the rings were seated. I changed the oil every 8-10 thousand miles after that. No problems. The bike ran 15 to 20 degrees cooler. My other vehicles I own now or in the past, cars & trucks, I change the Amsoil every year or 25,000 miles. The adverage mileage I get from my vehicles are 250,000 to 350,000 of service. Remember, AMSOIL,AMSOIL,AMSOIL! Ward |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Nebraska | ward - 2008-02-08 9:33 AM
All I can say is AMSOIL,AMSOIL,AMSOIL! I have used Amsoil for the past 15 years in every motorized vehicle I'ved owned. I changed my 06 Kingpin to Amsoil at 2500 miles, to make sure the rings were seated. I changed the oil every 8-10 thousand miles after that. No problems. The bike ran 15 to 20 degrees cooler. My other vehicles I own now or in the past, cars & trucks, I change the Amsoil every year or 25,000 miles. The adverage mileage I get from my vehicles are 250,000 to 350,000 of service. Remember, AMSOIL,AMSOIL,AMSOIL! Ward
I used Amsoil in my TC. It had 70K on it when I traded for the Vision. I changed it about every 5K. No problems. It never had any of the cases opened on the tranny or engine. The next oil change on the Vision will be with Amsoil. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 223
Valdosta, GA | My view...If you use conventional or "semi-synthetic" oils AND travel anything other than highway (not just interstate) miles, you should change your oil at least every 3,000 miles in a Vic. With my Vegas and my Jackpot, I could always tell when it was getting close to time to change the oil. Shifting, especially downshifting, would feel different and finding Neutral became for difficult. when the oil needed to be changed. This usually started around 2000 miles. As I average 15,000 miles/year, I needed to find something better/longer lasting. I tried a couple of different synthetics (Mobil 1, Shell Rotella, Havoline V-Twin Synth) and found MY best results were with Amsoil. Once I started using it, I found I could extend the change interval out to 5,000 miles before I would begin to notice those shifting differences. The other synthetics were better than dino oils, but still fell short of what I saw with Amsoil.
As for Octane...91 has been recommended for Vics I think since the beginning. A large part of that was because of the compression rations found in the 92" and 100" motors. With the lower ratios in the Vision motor, I wouldn't think using even 87 octane would cause any problems. However, for only ~$1 more per tank, I'll likely continue to use Premium... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I bend over fenders 5 days a week, 8 hours a day (+1 Sat. a month). I bought the 5 year extended warr. Giving someone else $300 every 2500 mi. for service is well worth it to me. Plus it keeps the dealer happy and the company happy. If I ever need to use the warr. I know the dealer will extend extra effort to get things covered. Why? because he wants me to keep comming there to spend my money. No matter how well I take care of this bike it will eventually wear out and need major repairs, or replaced. If I take care of my dealer now, he has more incentive to take care of me later. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Just to clarify info about Victory's dyno..
They run EVERY bike on their dyno through a warm up cycle and a high speed cycle (at highway speeds). I've personally watched them on several occasions. The bike is run at different speeds for almost 10 minutes, all the while they are also checking electronics, brakes, temps, air/fuel via sensors either plugged into the wiring harness or up the tailpipe.
As for oil, I used the Victory semisynthetic during the first couple oil changes, then switched to Amsoil and have stayed with it for years. When I made the switch the bike had less engine noise. I've had no trouble with with my clutch (some folks believe Amsoil is TOO slippery). |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Nebraska | cjnoho - 2008-02-09 12:27 AM
I bend over fenders 5 days a week, 8 hours a day (+1 Sat. a month). I bought the 5 year extended warr. Giving someone else $300 every 2500 mi. for service is well worth it to me. Plus it keeps the dealer happy and the company happy. If I ever need to use the warr. I know the dealer will extend extra effort to get things covered. Why? because he wants me to keep comming there to spend my money. No matter how well I take care of this bike it will eventually wear out and need major repairs, or replaced. If I take care of my dealer now, he has more incentive to take care of me later.
300 bucks every 2500 mi. Did I read that right ? That would cost me $1500 + a year. Then throw in tires on top of that. I'll just throw in some Amsoil every 5K and give the bike a once over and do the maintenance as needed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | My dealer charges me $90 for an oil change.
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Thats for a complete service. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Nebraska | What all is involved in a complete service ? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| maddog - 2008-02-10 7:22 AM
What all is involved in a complete service ?
Squint pretty hard, walk around the bike, change the oil and filter. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 223
Valdosta, GA | lowtone9 - 2008-02-10 12:10 PM
maddog - 2008-02-10 7:22 AM
What all is involved in a complete service ?
Squint pretty hard, walk around the bike, change the oil and filter.
You forgot to wiggle the belt up and down to make sure it's still attached...
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | mike s - 2008-02-10 3:08 PM
lowtone9 - 2008-02-10 12:10 PM
maddog - 2008-02-10 7:22 AM
What all is involved in a complete service ?
Squint pretty hard, walk around the bike, change the oil and filter.
You forgot to wiggle the belt up and down to make sure it's still attached...
Don't forget when you do all the squintin' and jigglin', you're doing by the chart in the back of the owner's manual.
As far as using AMSOIL or anyother oil, I've not heard someone say, "Whatever you do, don't use ..." Well maybe I've heard that about Slick 50. Bottom line is all the oil, synthetic or otherwise needs to make a dollar. Honda told me to run the hybrid they sold, Victory says use the hybrid they sell, both basically a 50% natural 50% synthetic. I think as long as you are changing it regularly and not using Crisco I think you'll be okay. However, I will say that when I used a synthetic (A****L) my Honda seemed to run quieter and cooler, as well as shift a little better.
I'd be interested to hear where someone did a teardown test after xxxx miles, one on a hybrid, full synthetic and one on a full natural to see what the engine looked like.
Someone just told me that they went into a friends engine to do upgrades at 70,000 and they used AMSOIL. The clynders still had the factory hashmarks. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 177
NW Illinois | I agree with veryder if you change it regular you should be good with any of them
With that said I have never used a synthetic and with all the AMSOIL enthusiam here I have to wonder if you all sell it on the side
All kidding aside if you go to a synthetic is it best to wait a certain amount of time before changing over, do you need to flush out the natural before going to the synthetic
Also if you go with a synthetic can you ever switch back to regular oil. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I agree also. Used regular oil in the HD, took it apart at 65k for 95" upgrade, still had the hone marks. Quit using HD oil, used to burn a quart between oil changes. HD's synthetic works well in the trans & primary. Started using it in the motor just to simplify buying oil. Most oils have additives regardless of their base. As long as you have the right weight, they all have to meet certain standards. If your down a quart on the road, any oil is better than none.
As far as the service, as long as I dont have to do it, they can wiggle and squint all they want. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | cjnoho - 2008-02-10 8:21 PM
I agree also. Used regular oil in the HD, took it apart at 65k for 95" upgrade, still had the hone marks. Quit using HD oil, used to burn a quart between oil changes. HD's synthetic works well in the trans & primary. Started using it in the motor just to simplify buying oil. Most oils have additives regardless of their base. As long as you have the right weight, they all have to meet certain standards. If your down a quart on the road, any oil is better than none.
As far as the service, as long as I dont have to do it, they can wiggle and squint all they want.
If you add a quart of oil to your Victory between oil changes something is seriously wrong. In the last four years of riding two different Victorys, have never added oil between changes. I would suggest talking to the lead mechanic at your shop on oil and changes. Get a good feeling from him/her so it does not lead to questions when you come in (possibly) for a warranty service. If you change your own oil, make sure you save documentation (receipts) on the oil and filter you use. This will also help if warranty is needed. Don't just throw any old oil into you Vision. Make sure the oil is formulated for motorcycles. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | VisionTex, thanks for saying "make sure that it is motorcycle oil" as I took that as a given when I buy, but failed to emphasize that with my comment above. And yes, adding oil between any change indicates there is a problem, or you're going long between changes. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
Prescott, AZ | I use AMSOIL 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil (MCF). It's 100% synthetic and API SG/CF. One of the biggest advantages of synthetic oil is the wide temperature range. The pour point is -51°F and the flash point is +453°F. That's a 504°F temperature range! No matter how cold or hot it is outside, the oil in my Victory Vision is not a concern. I also use the AMSOIL EaO13 oil filter on my Victory Vision.
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Cruiser
Posts: 82
Northwest of you | A couple of things: First, I use Shell Rotella T, synthetic in everything I own, but, find it perfectly suited to Victory's. Secondly, when I buy a new bike, I change the oil around 200 miles and have thought to do it earlier, I want any particles that are presesnt from initial "running" out of there. Third, for what it's worth, I was told by a dealer (and I believe him, though I don't have any real evidence for it) that the average "warranty" costs for Victory's last year was $16 per bike!!!!!!!!!!!! If that is true, these things don't break. Not only that, with the Vision being the "flagship" of the company, I believe they will do anything and everything to have happy customers. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
Prescott, AZ | Below is a correction of the API Service Rating from my previous post. The Correct API Service Rating for AMSOIL 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle is SL/CF. Higher API Service Ratings can be expected as future tests are performed.
I use AMSOIL 10W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil (MCF). It's 100% synthetic and API SL/CF. One of the biggest advantages of synthetic oil is the wide temperature range. The pour point is -51°F and the flash point is +453°F. That's a 504°F temperature range! No matter how cold or hot it is outside, the oil in my Victory Vision is not a concern. I also use the AMSOIL EaO13 oil filter on my Victory Vision.
Edited by JetJock 2008-02-23 12:33 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I just had the care center do the $300.00 oil change, I mean the 7,500 mile service. The next go around it'll probably be the AMSOIL with filter in my driveway. I do want to keep them in business since they are good people and care about their customers. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Las Vegas, NV | tralphaz - 2007-11-05 9:07 AM
Lemme stir the pot one more time, I think the 2500 mile interval is overkill, my wife's VTX 1300 manual places the interval for her bike at 8k, the Vic on the other hand has a larger oil capacity and semi-synthetic oil, the VTX recommends regular M/C oil.
Is there a variation between the Vic and the VTX due to the fact that the XTX is water cooled? Seems the lower running temperature would help keep the oil from breaking down as fast. DW
(Owned an 03 VTX 1300. Great bike!) |
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Cruiser
Posts: 72
Eyota, MN | In my 2004 Kingpin, I used the Victory oil til it had 5000 miles on it, then switched to Amsoil. I noticed the shifting got smoother and never had a problem with it. I sold it in Nov. 07 to get my Vision and it had 33,500 miles on it and it ran like it was brand new. I run Amsoil in everything. It's a great oil. I'm going to run Amsoil in the Vision too, if this damn white stuff would ever go away and I could ride it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| The main advantage of synthetic (or type 4) oil is that it doesn`t break down as quickly. Its viscosity doesn`t decrease as quickly. Does seem to make transmissions work more smoothly also, in my experience.
Personally, I wouldn`t extend the change frequency very much unless I was using a syn or pseudo syn oil, although I`m sure the 2.5K is very conservative. These big torquey and powerful air-cooled engines really give the oil a work-out, it gets pretty thin quick, and it`s a piece of cake to change oil in these bikes anyways. Rotella T is what, like 12 bucks a gallon? And we`re riding 20 thousand dollar bikes? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
Prescott, AZ | For those of you planning to do your own oil changes, don't forget to buy a supply of "Oil Drain Washers" for the oil drain plug from your Victory dealer. The Victory part number is P05812232 and the washers cost 75 cents apiece. You should use a new washer every time you reinstall the drain plug.
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Cruiser
Posts: 294
rhode island | mike s vision's compression is 9.4 the rest of the line of bikes has been dropped to around 8.5 as to oil changes 5000 seems to work,On my tc 25000 no problems. remember what the engineers all say; this engine is bullet proof! |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 35
El Paso, TX | First of all,
let's remember the the Vision is an air/oil cooled motor. No doubt the Victory motor is durable, but it will not be as efficient at regulating temperature as the liquid cooled Hondas. As keep in mind that the motor and transmission share the same oil. Cars have separate oil for both the motor and transmission. If you want to do 5k or longer intervals and take that chance go ahead. I'll be doing my motor the favor and changing my at 500 miles and then every 2500mi. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Like buckeye said in another thread, some of us were sucked into spending more than the bike (HD) was worth. We bought Visions partly because of less maintanence. What I have read here is mainly personal preference. If Victory wants services every 2500 mi. so be it. Anything beyond that is overkill. Even perfect maitanence is no guarentee(?). Things break regardless of how we take care of our vehicles. SHIT HAPPENS!!!! If you cant $300 for the service, shouldent have spent $25000 on the bike. Motorcycles arent a necessity they are an obsession. Take a look at the gallery a see how much some have spent on mods. Oil changes every 2500 mi. doesnt sound all that unreasonable. Your going to spend it anyway, might as well be on the Vision you love. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | here,here!! Ah, heck, change your own oil every 5k, or take it to the dealer. Whats the big deal? they can do it in under 30minutes, and it's a good excuse to ride somewhere. then again, i might be talking out the side of my neck? jiggety, jiggety |
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Oil changing thoughts