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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | I have heard that Victory hasn't looked into CVT technology, but I just wanted to start a conversation about it anyway. Frankly, as cutting edge as the Vision is, and realizing many are not fans of automatic bikes, I am still very surprised to not be hearing any rumors for a CVT tranny.
For those that may not be familiar, and before you laugh, and before you mention the horrid "Hondamatic" CVT technology is NOT new by any stretch. I have an '81 Moto Guzzi 1000 cc with a CVT on it. It has two ranges, but after nearly 30 years most people recommend not using low unless you are either going up or going down a really steep grade. However, low can be used up to 70mph I believe according to the manual so it's just more torque and engine braking than anything else anyway. Nearly 30 years later, it hauls just fine and is no lightweight.
Furthermore, Lisa has a Honda Silverwing, which only being a 650, does just fine with a CVT. So there are two examples that rule out... bike too heavy or engine not strong enough. It would seem a CVT on a Vision would be simply amazing... the icing on the cake if you will.
Even the auto industry is again embracing the new technology versions of CVT. They run cooler, and have few moving parts.
Anyway, in the past couple of years, Yamaha and Honda have been experimenting with versions of auto, semi-auto or full CVT bikes. Boss Hoss uses something which I think is a CVT but not sure and then there is Ridley of which I heard not so good things, but hey... at least they are doing it.
If the Vision had a CVT, I know it would make it more attractive to me, and wondered about how others felt.
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I would rather shift for myself but, as I was reading your post, envisioned (no pun intended) a Vision Lehman trike with CVT. If they could incorporate a reverse I think this would be an awsome combination. The backend they already use for the Kingpin would compliment the Vision styling very well. Perhaps the addition of rear fender skirts, mimmicking the sidebags. CVT would definately appeal to many consumers. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 57
| No thanks, I would rather shift. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | why not get a car? shifting is part of the experience. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 562
SC, Bluffton | I love shifting. Part of the driving experience. But, some folks don't. The Suzuki Burgman 650 has serious guts
and the CVT. Its 0-60 & top speed are impressive. It also has a power mode where it won't shift until a higher RPM.
I really have to shop when I buy a pick up. I only want a manual shift. I currently have a Ford F-150 with a manual
shift. I like to shift, talk on the cell, smoke, eat & still use my turn signals. (o: | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | CVT has it's place but I think it would have been a deal breaker on the Vision. Auto-clutch is controversial enough.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | still, why? do some folks like it because they are physically unable to use a clutch, or just lazy?
I think the last place you need an automatic is in a bike.
Why I think it's a bad idea, is you can't dis-engage the tranny while twisting the throttle. totally different than using your feet.
My youngest daughter was riding a little 80, automatic. i explained to her, the only way to stop the bike from going forward, is the brakes or let go of the throttle. she took a corner to fast, and went off the trail, while the bike was moving away from her, she held on with both hands, which forced the throttle more open and no way to disengage the engine unless she came under total control, falls off, or hits something. while the doctor was pulling out the 2 inch long yucca thorne that imbedded itself into her "chicken wing", she told me she couldn't let go or she'd fall. if automatic become the fad, i'm buying a tank! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 63
| I guess unless you have ridden a bike with CVT it doesn't make much sense I guess, so let me dispell some "rumors" for those that haven't actually ridden a bike with CVT (not automatic, but Constant Velosity, there is a difference) I wouldn't want an "automatic" either.
First, it doesn't shift. Just like the commercial on TV where the chick is trying to put on makeup and "waiting" for the shift, it doesn't happen. Twist the throttle, you go. Come off the throttle, you slow down as if you've shifted down as there is profound engine braking. Hauling through twisities is just a matter of backing off the throttle into a corner and hitting on the way through. It's a very positive feel, that does take some getting used to.
I'm a "shifter". I grew up on stick shift. But any time I got the Guzzi in traffic, or into the twisties, it kindof makes me wonder why I like shifting and as I get older... I don't. For me it's pure lazy. When I take a corner too hot and have that moment of panic of trying to hit the lower gear before I hit the corner, my mind immediately goes to the fact that the reason I hit it too hot was I was on my Vic and the last time I was on that corner was on the Guzzi and that speed was just fine.
Also, just because it's a CVT, doesn't mean it doesn't have a clutch. The Guzzi has a clutch. It's only really used for starting and for shifting the range (which due to it's age should be done at a stop now... 100K+ is not uncommon on these bikes at all). But definately a clutch. I like the clutch over the Honda's (or Bergman) which doesn't. Under non-race conditions, 0-60 is the same as on any bike.
But that's just me. On the other hand, and I notice we are an older crowd, if you look around, most folks under 30 don't know how to shift. And most new drivers, don't even know what it is. I remember when "auto" on a car was the option. Now stick is the option.
Not trying to push it. I don't think Vision should have had ONLY a CVT, but I think it should be an option. With the goal being so "cutting edge" and the other brands having been noodling with it for a few years... there is proven technology that could just be upgraded and they'd be so far in front of the curve it's not funny.
And the Vision trike idea.... sooowwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!! | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | As far as Victory not looking into CVT technology: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=2740&Page=1 A lot of uninformed people think that this is the Vision we are buying. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | i see your point. maybe it could be an upgrade if requested.
i would rather a youngster who isn't able to shift a bike, not ride at all. can you feel me on that? there is just to much going on while riding to make it easier for someone with no experience to get out there and run me off the road, or kill themselves.
i guess this makes me unfortable, like the whole air bag thing. who wants to give the safety nazi more to work with? wow, i sound like someone who rides a harley?
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | Ya know, I had forgot about the "800" and it had a CVT also.
I'm a bit old school, but new tech, so I look toward the racing industry for technology on the street. Just like "porn" is to Internet technology (betcha didn't realize that) the racing industry is where you find the latest performance trends, and in the racing arena, where milliseconds count, they are and have been moving away from shifting and at least clutches for several years.
I admit, there was a time when "shifting" especially on a car, provided an advantage in performance and economy. The modern CVT outshine both economy and performance in the automobile world.
Interesting views. "i would rather a youngster who isn't able to shift a bike, not ride at all. can you feel me on that? " No actually I don't. My other half I guess could drive a shift if she had to, but she never learned and it's really rough trying to explain it to someone that's hmmm 30+ why they need to. She's an excellent driver and an excellent rider. And because of the CVT on the Guzzi or the Honda, if we're in twisties, she should be leading as I'm usually in her way... but I'm usually the one what knows where were going  LOL!!!
I'm also, and pretty much always have been a fan of AGAT too. I don't mind the safety stuff, I just don't like being told I have to use it, although I do anyway. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 554
2 mi from Jim Beam n KY | I could go for it if I were 75 and riding a Trike. Or maybe an "option" some folks may need. But at 49, no, not for me. To each his own though! | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | i could agree, someone with "maturity" and knows the perils of possible death, but didn't learn the "manual" could be a good rider with an automatic. im not saying your other half isn't a young 30+.
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Cruiser
Posts: 82
| Victory would be in a position of strength if it chose to develop a CVT – Polaris has produced several million automatic trannies over the past 40-plus years – but it's unlikely Victory will pursue it. Automatic bikes are a market niche and right now Victory seems focused on larger sales segments, not Spyder-like specialties. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I know a lot of riders missing parts of thiere lower legs that would probably benefit from a CVT. Its like shifting & braking with a 2x4 for them. Im like Vision-Rider I like to grab a lower gear before turning into a twisty. Not that its better than a CVT its just what Im used to. Shifting whether cars or bikes involves the driver/rider to concentrate more on the driving experience. Rather than using cell phones or putting on make up. When my daughter learned to drive she wanted to try a manual. She got the hang of it but couldnt see the point of owning one. Its something that is going to have to grow on people before its accepted. Sort of like the old timers that grew up on jockey shift bikes. We are our own worst enemy. If its new and diffrent we're not supposed to like it. especially when youve been doing it the other way for sooo long. The biggest problem is ignorence whether its from being young or just stupid. When I ride or drive I tend to look at the person behind the wheel or on the bike. Where thier head is at where thiere eyes are looking. Not just what the vehicle is doing. Whether its shift for yourself or CVT there are people out there that think they have better things to do than pay attention. If it came to giving up riding or a CVT. I would pick the CVT and I would master it because my life depends on it. Just like my sanity depends on riding. Every state in the union is trying to get us off of bikes. Helmets, loud pipes, air bags are just big brothers way of trying to get us to quit. Im no quitter(just ask AA). | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Let me take the 800 concept for a little spin, I might learn to like the CVT!!!! | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I think it would depend on the package. Though Ive never ridden one, the Guzzi seems like it would be an awsome ride. Victorys concept bike too. It would have to be more than just a novelty. It would have to compliment the rest of the bike. Put a smile on your face. Imagine the old Kawa 3 cylinder 2 strokes, or the Suzuki rotary with a CVT. The shifting on both bikes felt like an automatic anyway. With CVT the power would be smooth and seamless. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | Hey Cjnoho,
First, as I see you are in So Cal... I hope all is well and you're not too close to the fires. Also you're in Guzzi country down there, you might check out http://www.motoguzziclassics.com/ as they are in Southern Cali also I believe. The reason I bring it up is that granted the Guzzi CVT is dated... it's ALMOST 30 year old technology that STILL RUNS STRONG today. I can only imagine what it would be like updating it. I mean if it was good enough for the LAPD nearly 30 years ago, it would seem they could come up with something today. Yep, you read that right.
In '81 the LAPD gave up on H-D and contracted Moto Guzzi to build their bikes, and it was a Convert (that's Italy for automatic) that they used. In fact, several of the parts like the floorboards and kickstand are interchangeable with Harley parts. Apparently someone from LAPD flew to Italy with a handful of "must have" parts off his Harley. They welded them on and the bikes went into production that way.
But I digress. I absolutely don't think a CVT should be the "only" option for a Vision. Just like most cars you can get auto or manual tranny, it should be an option. The Yamaha solution is pretty cool with that "clutchless" shifting thing they have on the 1300, but unless you're racing, I don't get it.
The Honda DN-01 and E4-01 http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-news/honda-dn-01.htm is pretty cool. Again, even that is technology that's at least 4 years old.
Of course, the Vision was released to work with an older version of the ipod they no longer make, so maybe I guess first things first. | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | wow, i feel narrow minded. then again, i would rather walk than ride anything not made in the USA. | |
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CVT ??