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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Does anybody know for sure if our shock is an emulsion type or not? Just to clarify, an emulsion shock carries the air and oil mixed (emulsified) in the same chamber. Next higher quality shocks separate the air from the oil with a floating piston. I once noticed a little bit of oil released from the air filler which makes me think they're emulsion. BTW, Harley shocks are emulsion for sure. Once I left one laying on my worktable on its side with the air filler pointing down and in the morning the oil was all over the floor :-)
The reason I'm interested is that I'd like to experiment with oil viscosity in order to improve the ride. In my case I ride without the trunk and rarely a passenger and when I do, a light one. The damping is designed for "worse case scenario" which is around a 500 lb load without any means to adjust it so in my case the damping is a lot stronger than it needs to be which makes the rear harsh on these lousy SoCal freeways. I kinda doubt you can take the shock apart as is normal with most cheaper OE units so I'm thinking about going to a lighter oil. There is probably KYB K2-C oil in there which is 2.5 wt (which actually tests at 4 wt hot). There are some lighter oils available like Red Line "Like Water!".
Anyway, anybody know? Any other thoughts besides the obvious that I have too much time on my hands :-)
Marc |
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Glendale, AZ United States | I would personally utilize what Victory recommends and not tinker with the shock too much. The key is that you not utilize an air compressor to adjust, but a regular bicycle pump or the Victory pump or you will have leak in time. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Here are some nice pictures of our shock in pieces: 
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Tourer
Posts: 494
Akron Ohio area | I'm kind of surprised that you feel a need to improve on the rear shock?
I'm 300 pounds and when on long trips or when the wife rides with me my Vision is loaded with over 400 pounds.
I've never bottomed out the rear shock in 61,000 miles.
As stated above, you can't use compressed air to adjust the rear shock without expecting fatal results to your shock.
Hand pump only. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| you can go as low as 10 pound of air up to fifty. Have you read your book or look in your side bag to see the air chart |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | marcparnes - 2014-03-02 7:58 PM
I kinda doubt you can take the shock apart as is normal with most cheaper OE units
Marc
Still feel that way?? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| okie vision - 2014-03-03 6:41 PM
marcparnes - 2014-03-02 7:58 PM
I kinda doubt you can take the shock apart as is normal with most cheaper OE units
Marc
Still feel that way??
I should have been more specific. I was referring to the actual shock, look at the picture. Its welded at both ends so no way to modify the valving. In any case, I just changed out 200 cc of stock oil for very light Red Line "Like Water!" oil. I spoke with Red Line and the guy there suggested not changing it all out or it might be too loose since their oil is 1/2 the viscosity of the original KYB oil. I drained the reservoir but didn't stroke the damper as I originally intended so its still filled with however much it holds. I used a Mityvac to drain it and refill it through the air line which worked really well without having to compress the spring to take the reservoir apart. Only took about 30 minutes. Also, I pulled the shock out the top through the hole under the seat. Its much easier that way than taking the wheel off and climbing inside the fender area. I'll put the shock back in tomorrow and see how it feels. Kinda fun :-)
Marc
Edited by marcparnes 2014-03-03 9:18 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| bigfoot - 2014-03-03 12:19 PM
I'm kind of surprised that you feel a need to improve on the rear shock?
I'm 300 pounds and when on long trips or when the wife rides with me my Vision is loaded with over 400 pounds.
I've never bottomed out the rear shock in 61,000 miles.
As stated above, you can't use compressed air to adjust the rear shock without expecting fatal results to your shock.
Hand pump only.
Your situation is the opposite of mine. I only weigh 185 and my wife is only 125. The ride is better with both of us on the bike but with just me its a bit too harsh. That's a function of the damping so that's why I'm playing with it.
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| marcparnes - 2014-03-03 9:16 PM bigfoot - 2014-03-03 12:19 PM I'm kind of surprised that you feel a need to improve on the rear shock? I'm 300 pounds and when on long trips or when the wife rides with me my Vision is loaded with over 400 pounds. I've never bottomed out the rear shock in 61,000 miles. As stated above, you can't use compressed air to adjust the rear shock without expecting fatal results to your shock. Hand pump only. Your situation is the opposite of mine. I only weigh 185 and my wife is only 125. The ride is better with both of us on the bike but with just me its a bit too harsh. That's a function of the damping so that's why I'm playing with it. Marc so when its just you you don't change the air psi |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| johnnyvision - 2014-03-04 4:44 PM
so when its just you you don't change the air psi
I run 10 lbs solo and 45 lbs with her and luggage but no trunk John. That's one really nice feature of being able to add air. They can equip the shock with a relatively light spring for light loads when you don't have the trunk on and riding solo and then augment the spring with air for heavier loads. Too bad we couldn't adjust the damping in the same way like some other bikes can. The Penske that Traxxion offered had damping adjustments but no practical way to adjust preload for a passenger, etc.. They ran an 800 lb spring as a compromise while the stock shock runs a 600 lb spring. I tried their shock on my 2011 but not having a way to adjust for a load didn't work for me so I put the stock shock back.
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 25
| bigfoot - 2014-03-03 2:19 PM
I'm kind of surprised that you feel a need to improve on the rear shock?
I'm not attacking anyone, so please don't take this personally. Most bikes as they come from the factory have to be sprung and damped to cover such a wide variety of weights, roads and riding styles, that it is a wonder that the stock shock is right for anybody who is the slightest bit outside of the norm that they are designed for. The people who seek to replace stock parts are just trying to optimize the bike for the weight, roads and the way they ride. This might be overkill, but I've read about a guy who had "Traxxion Dynamics" replace the innards from the front forks on his Vision with 20mm cartridge suspension. The more you try to ride your "Ole Vic" like a large sport bike or off-roader, the more you will appreciate an upgraded suspension.
I have Ohlins on my Beemer and they are sprung for my weight and I can adjust the preload on the front as well as the rebound. On the rear I can adjust preload, compression and rebound. The rear also has a remote reservoir to keep the oil cooler and allow for easier preload adjustments. Both of the shocks separate the gas and oil and once you set them up properly, it makes a world of difference in your confidence as well as the perceived feel when going over irregularities (BUMPS) in the road at speed. The adjusting mechanism on Ohlins is very fine and the manual versions like I have are done by counting the clicks from the beginning of its adjustment. Basically, compression is how quickly the shock absorbs bumps while rebound is how quickly the shock recovers from going over bumps. Other shocks like Penskes have even more adjustability than Ohlins, but they are also more expensive.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | Nice job, Marc.
and I also know Vision riders running the Traxxion front shock upgrade and are sold on it. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| okie vision - 2014-03-06 8:38 AM
and I also know Vision riders running the Traxxion front shock upgrade and are sold on it.
I have their cartridge system on the front of mine as well. I originally installed it on my '11 and then moved it to the '13. Its adjustable for rebound and compression and even small adjustments make a difference. Once I got it where I liked it I haven't messed with it since regardless of the load. The front isn't effected by load on the rear as much as the shock is obviously. To be honest what works almost as well and is much cheaper is simply installing the spring/cartridge combination from an 8-Ball. Its a lot more compliant without being too soft.
I haven't ridden the bike on the freeway since changing the fluid but I have ridden it around town some. So far there isn't a lot of difference from stock. I'm going to do a 300 mile ride on Saturday combining freeway and twisties and see how it feels. I might go back and replace all the fluid with the light stuff next time.
Marc |
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Tourer
Posts: 494
Akron Ohio area |
so when its just you, you don't change the air psi? Nope. Before each trip I'll check the air pressure and if needed bump it back up to somewhere around 65 PSI. I prefer a firm ride, particularly when hitting the twisties. I don't like any vehicle that wallows in the turns. My buddy's brother had, I believe, the first Traxxion front end put on his Vision. I've talked with another guy who had it done to his Vision and he raved about it. Before I would spend money refurbishing the front shocks, I would get the Traxxion front end installed.
Edited by bigfoot 2014-03-09 3:26 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | How do you get it apart, does it screw apart? I want to look at my old one. Thanks marcparnes - 2014-03-03 3:12 PM Here are some nice pictures of our shock in pieces:
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| looks like the top screws off |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Thanks |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| varyder - 2014-03-09 2:20 PM
How do you get it apart, does it screw apart? I want to look at my old one.? Thanks
Hey Chris,
It's a bear! You need some way to compress the outer tube which includes compressing that monster spring. You have to get it down far enough so you can get an open end wrench on the nut under the top yoke. Once you get the nut loose you can unscrew the top yoke and start taking it apart. The black outer tube covers the reservoir for both the oil and air which is the chromed inner tube. The seal that fails is a huge one that is in the lower portion of the outer tube and slides on the inner tube. There are some snap rings to remove and it comes apart. The actual damping unit is inside and is welded together. It has a bleed hole in it that allows the oil to move between the reservoir and itself. I doubt you could find any of the sealing parts on the open market. They look to me to be particular to this shock. It looks like the cross bikes use the same or similar unit with a slightly lighter spring.
Just as an aside, to compress it I ended up standing it on the floor under my milling machine table and then running the table down on it. That table probably weights over 1000 lbs and had trouble with it. Figure it already has some preload plus 600 lbs for the first inch and 1200 lbs for the second inch, etc. the total stroke is like 2.3". It could easily kill you. Best leave it be ;-)
Marc |
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Shock Question