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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States | Has anyone done just Llyodz Top filter & timing gear with good results?
I have 2013 Vision with 18K. I want to stay with the stock exhaust but give her a little more kick.
On my 2009 I had Atom Bombs & the Ness Twin Sucker Kit. The mufflers sounded good but I did not like the occasional backfire. It seemed to run ok other than black smoke on hard acceleration. Rode her to 60K in 3 years that way.
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | Fuel controller, either PCV or Lloydz VCIII, with top filter gives you the best bang for the buck. The timing wheel will increase the HP at the low end of RPMS. When I just got the filter and PCV the thing I noticed the most was the throttle response. It was a big improvement. If I got a new Vision, I would still get what I have on my bike now......Lloydz all around!! | |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I have top filter wheel at +6 and S1L1 with 02's un hooked bike runs great and I'm around 44 mpg. Mileage changes with high temps and humidity.
I see no need for fuller I think the best thing to do is try the wheel its the best thing you can buy for your bike | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM
I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......?
The stock exhaust isn't restrictive on a NA Vision 106. It flows well enough to support 135HP 116 builds. Your assertion that "what goes in has to come out" is valid, but in the case of the Vision, the stock exhaust isn't a limiting factor, especially on a 106 motor. The "funnel outlet" can easily handle more air flow.
To the OP, you can do it, but gains will be relatively small, but noticeable. Changing the exhaust and expecting a power increase will be a waste of money and a disappointment, if more power is the goal. Change the exhaust for a different sound if you wish.
If more power is the goal, and the quiet of the stock exhuast doesn't bother you, money that would be spent on a different exhaust would be far better spent on LLoydz cams, a top filter, and a fuel controller. Those things alone will get you 105 to 110 HP at the rear wheel, up from your stock 80 or 85.
You can get into the 90 HP range with just tuning, but the stock cams begin to fade after 4500 RPM, no matter what else you do.
What kinds of power increases are you looking for, and in what riding conditions? Are you looking for more mid-range, more low end, more top end, or a combination of all three? You should have a goal in mind before you start spending money.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-02 11:13 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States | Great reply rdbudd. For me with a new 13 VVT, I'm looking for smoother throttle response and a little more low end to mid range power (torque) and smoothness. I have no issue with the stock sound at this point. From what I've read here, the easiest to do and lowest cost way to get there is to do these two things in this order: 1. Lloyds timing gear
2. Top filter | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | +1 of rdbudd's input
When I was looking to buildout my 2013 Vision, I sat down with friend/Vic mechanic, to decide on what we wanted to accomplish. The decision was to build performance across the board which would humble unexpecting HD riders. I wasn't looking to build a bike that went against what the Vision is meant to be...another words if I wanted a crotch rocket then buy a 2nd bile. That's not to say that somewhere down the rode I may entertain a stroker kit.
One thing you may want to add to your list is a performance/K & N filter in place of the OEM filter.
I didn't dyno the stock setup but the results from the following setup dyno'd at 122 rwhp and 120 fl/lb
Perf filter
Witchdoctor Voodoo exhaust
Cams - 1st generation
Upper filter
Air Intake System and spacer
timing wheel
Dyno tuning at KMC Powersports - Kyle is awesome
Handling
Installed Vision 8 Ball spriings and cartridges
Lowered front and rear - 1"
1/4 throttle - highly recommended for any bike
Results - very strong running bike at any and all gears (turned 6th gear into a passing gear)
Outstanding response across rpm and mph
Note - timing gear was the last thing that we installed. I cured the low end torque loss and dramatically decreased detonation on decelleration
Dyno tuning also completely smoothed out engine performance. When decelerating at high speed it sounds like a turbine spinning down | |
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Tourer
Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States | +1 Tom, Two questions: 1. To lower the Vision 1" both front and rear, you used the 8-ball shock and front fork cartridges? Anything else? 2. No fuel management changes? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | ljurgens - 2014-01-02 12:46 PM
Great reply rdbudd.? For me with a new 13 VVT, I'm looking for smoother throttle response and a little more low end to mid range power (torque) and smoothness. I have no issue with the stock sound at this point. From what I've read here, the easiest to do and lowest cost way to get there is to do these two things in this order: 1. Lloyds timing gear
2. Top filter? ?
Not a bad place to start, and it may be all you need depending on your goals. Low end should be improved.
The Vision is set quite lean by the factory, probably to get by the EPA. A fuel controller gets around this.
In addition to the timing wheel and filter, you could just unplug the O2 sensors, which throws the ECU into a richer open loop. That may work for you, and is free to try. You can always plug them back in. Unplugging them will not cause any "error codes" or anthing. If using a fuel controller, you need to unplug the O2 sensors anyway so the ECU doesn't "fight with" the controller.
If you find you want even more mid-range, and especially top end power, you may someday want the cams. You'll get the best performance out of them if you have a fuel controller. To get everything the cams have to offer on the top end, you'll need to to increase your rev-limit to 6400 or 6500 RPM. The rev-limit increase isn't necessary to get the kind of power being talked about in this thread, but the stock rev-limiter causes you to shift at 5500 RPM when the cams are still pulling hard past 6000 RPM.
Why does this make a difference? Shifting at 5500 RPM means you can reach (1) 38 MPH, (2) 60 MPH, (3) 80 MPH, (4) 98 MPH, (5) 122 MPH. Shifting at 6000 RPM means you shift at (1) 42 MPH, (2) 66 MPH, (3) 87 MPH, (4) 107 MPH, (5) 133 MPH.
For comparison, the Goldwing shifted at 6000 RPM shifts at (1) 40 MPH, (2) 66 MPH, (3) 90 MPH, (4) 114 MPH, and is geared for 140 MPH in 5th.
With the stock 5500 rev-limit of the Vision, no matter how much HP you have, whether stock or cammed, the Goldwing can gain as much as 5 MPH more in 1st, 11MPH in 2nd, 17 MPH in 3rd, and 25 MPH in 4th over the Victory, simply due to the gearing and different rev-limiters, with both going to the rev-limiter in each gear. Horsepower has nothing to do with that difference. In relation to the GW, the stock 5500 RPM Vision rev-limit forces the Victory to be "short shifted" to the next higher gear while the GW is still winding out in a lower (harder accelerating) gear.
That gearing/rev-limit advantage of the Goldwing is erased when you raise the rev-limiter on the Vision to 6400.
For "normal" riding, none of that matters one little bit------unless somebody wants to race your Vision with his Goldwing. THEN, that rev-limiter matters a LOT.
To your question: the timing wheel is a good place to start. It may be all you need for your riding conditions. Then a top filter, and a richened up fuel delivery if you want more. Unplugging the o2 sensors may be enough to richen up the fueling if you're quitting right there, or you may want a fuel controller at this point. Then cams if you want---lots more. If you get cams--raise the rev-limit too, either with a 1000 RPM increase in a PCV program, or by having Lloyd reprogram your ECU. (I'm using a VFCIII and Lloydz ECU with Lloydz cams and top filter and a stock exhaust--that's it--and it outruns GWs, looks and sounds stock, and gets fuel mileage slightly better than the GW when on trips).
If using Lloydz cams, the stock 5500 rev-limit cuts you off far short of the potential, and the bike will pull up to 5500 hard and fast. I mean it just SLAMS into the 5500 RPM limit.
If using stock cams, the increased rev-limit won't gain you much of anything at all--the stock cams are too EPA compliant, and don't continue to make increasing power at higher RPMs, and begin fading after 4500, and the bike just sneaks up on the 5500 rev-limit slowly.
If you aren't in the habit of flogging through the gears and don't ever go over 4500 RPM, you don't need the cams.
If you get the cams, the bike will perform nearly the same below 4500 (especially if you get Lloydz ECU, or get the timing wheel) as the stock cams, but get MUCH stronger over 4500 to past 6000 RPM.
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | rdbudd,
thanks for the comprehensive info on the performance of the aftermarket cams... we get bombarded on how you need those cams... but for how you described their usefulness/performance; I'm good to go just with the Dobeck fueler, timing wheel and top end filter.
No need to "whine out" the Vision. I've got another monster motorcycle just for that. :-) | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | willtill - 2014-01-02 5:09 PM
rdbudd,
thanks for the comprehensive info on the performance of the aftermarket cams... we get bombarded on how you need those cams... but for how you described their usefulness/performance; I'm good to go just with the Dobeck fueler, timing wheel and top end filter.
No need to "whine out" the Vision. I've got another monster motorcycle just for that. :-)
You're welcome sir. I'm still remembering the test rides I took on an R3. Darn near bought one. Might still, someday.
In my particular circle of friends, we are all aging crotch rocket riders, and several of us had dedicated track bikes for many years. I built mine and helped build some of the others. We are all performance oriented, and even though we have "graduated" to luxury touring bikes, the competitive spirit lives on and the GW guys insisted on challenging my Vision nearly every time we rode. They had the advantage in a drag race (darned rev-limiter) by about 1/3 to 1/4 second and 2 MPH, and the roll-ons in 5th gear were basically even up to 100 MPH, as long as we started at 45 MPH or above. They had a slight top end advantage (darn speed limiter).
Now, the tables are turned all the way around in every category. The Vision outclasses the Goldwings in performance, by a small amount. But, we still play from time to time. The bikes are still close enough in performance for the challenges/races to be fun (I could do more to get even more power, but I'm happy where it is). Keeps the juices flowing. A little impromptu "racing" every now and then while on a long trip breaks up the boredom that long straight roads can cause.
We've been challenged by total strangers on Harleys, while cruising down the road, a few times. We accept, and everybody has fun. Some of those Harleys run pretty good. We've had some laughs and made new friends that way. We've never been challenged by a stranger on a Goldwing. We have been challenged by kids in their tuner import cars that have those obnoxious fart tubes on them. We've surprised a few of them too.
Those folks who never accept a challenge from a fast Harley or a Goldwing don't need the cams in their Vision or Cross Country.
We don't go around picking on sport bikes. There wouldn't be much point in that, and the race wouldn't be much fun. It's only fun when the machines are close in performance. Kind of like a ball game. A game that ends up with a score of 20 to 18 is a lot more fun for everybody than one that ends up with a score of 50 to 2.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-02 7:43 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | Geez...how could I forget the PCV ... duh
Regarding lowering the bike.
New link for the rear and the spacers in the forks were cut down an inch. The 8 ball cartridges and springs really improved the handling characteristics. The bike is more nimble and makes the front end feel smaller in comparison to the OEM setup | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States | Great replies rdbudd! I am a mechanic & do know there is not a thing wrong with the stock Vision exhaust!
I may just try the timing gear & top filter with the O2 sensors unplugged - I can always add a fuel controller if needed.
I am not going as far as doing cams - I will probably trade for another Vision when I reach 60K which will only be 2 more riding seasons. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD | talexander - 2014-01-03 4:14 PM
Great replies rdbudd! I am a mechanic & do know there is not a thing wrong with the stock Vision exhaust!
I may just try the timing gear & top filter with the O2 sensors unplugged - I can always add a fuel controller if needed.
I am not going as far as doing cams - I will probably trade for another Vision when I reach 60K which will only be 2 more riding seasons.
Talexander, you don't have to go the cam route to create a VisionBeast nor break the bank. What I may have missed here or didnt see mentioned was the Adjustable Intake (for us Visionaries only) which DOES make a difference and dyno. Yes the auto-tune folks may like that route, the dyno is my preference.
As long as your fine with the sound of your exhaust stick with it or if you want, look up drilling it here which is quite when you need it and nice sound when you slam it. My opion only, not gospel. Here is what I did with mine and while my 17year old inner self would like the cams, their not needed. I get great power in my cruise range of 2800-3200 and I pick the spot I want to be then theVision is there. Im a daily commutter with ALOT of interstate traffic so cruise torque was improtant to me. Take a look, you might like it!!!
My visit to Loydz:
What I had going in:
Ness Big Honkers - Lloyd said will cost you a little on lower end
Upper 2nd fliter - First thing I added to bike
Performance Front filter - May not have needed it but...
ATS wheel set at +5
Dunlop CT mud/snow run flat - Definitely costing me some top end HP
VFC-III
What I had done to get to this dyno sheet:
PCV
Lloyds Adjustable Intake
1/4 turn throttle ring
Dyno tuned
My goal was low end torque, not get into the motor more than the ATS and keep my decent MPG. What I got was a friggin well tuned torque on demand monster! You hit it, it is there and I love it! Best part is staying at 1K to do this part of the mods. The dyno was very interesting as I seen as much as a 15% difference between the front and rear cans fuel requirements... I was shocked! The bike behaves just like you would want, got the front end off the ground twice during the post mod ride. Did not expect that. Bottom line, you better hang on. While my HP curve is lower than hoped, im fairly convinced my CT is eating some of that up but look at where she is coming in on her torque and that is what I was after. You don't have time to look at the tach before it hits. The sound of the engine and exhaust changed dramatically, sounds friggin NASCAR now! lmao. Im happy is about all I can say. Will I do the cams or do I have regrets? Nope. The money saved is going into the TC.
Bottom line, those that are nervous about getting inside the motor to do cams or on more of a budget, you have an option!
(2011VisionDyno.jpg)
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | That is a great looking chart Tim, and reflects the performance of the stock cams. As I've said before, the stock cams start dropping off after 4000 RPM and are done by 4500 RPM. They are what is holding your HP down. As I've also said before, if you aren't in the habit of going over 4500 RPM, you don't need to change cams. And, as I've said before, tuning can get you into the 90s.
However, had you spent the money for the Big Honkers on a set of Lloydz cams instead, and retained the stock exhaust, your torque chart would look about like it does now up to about 3500 RPM, but then it would stay nearly flat all the way to 5700-5800 RPM, instead of dropping off the way it does now. Horsepower would necessarily go up with it, probably to about 115 to 120 HP. The best of both worlds--torque and HP.
In terms of cruise torque, the VM1 cams would act just about like the stock ones you've got now, but when you hit the throttle in 5th gear at 55 MPH to merge into traffic, the VM1 cams just keep on pulling as hard at 5500 RPM as at 3000 RPM. The stock ones are fading away after 3500 RPM. With the stock cams, in 5th gear, you get a burst of power at 55 MPH that lasts until 75 or 80 MPH, then they begin to fade. If you had the Lloydz cams with your setup, the burst of power would still start at 55 MPH, but the bike would still be pulling just as hard at 110 MPH.
There is no right or wrong. It all depends on what a person wants out of their bike.
For someone starting out with modifications, set a goal before you open your wallet.
Ronnie | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD | Good points Ronnie and I did look at the dynos on my options (which you laid out very well) and after consulting Lloyd went with this configuration. We discussed my style and broke down the Torque/HP from the dynographs, discussed costs of each and then is was simply decision time. If you look at where that 114 came in at, it actaully suited me better dropping the cams from my install and going for the adjustable intake. Funny I hear so little about it but what a punch it packs. Very good advice about setting a goal AND budget before opening the wallet and commencing the Mods.
For me, it was two things. One budget of course and two HOW did I want the bike to sound. I had stock pipes, HATED that sound then I did the drill and they got better. But the sound I was after was the honkers. You can't get that sound out of your mind (or mine anyway). And I was able to stay within my budget getting the sound and response I was after.
Agreed there is no wrong way to go as long as you know what your after in the end and put a plan together before you start. I posted this not to say I can do just was well as a bike with CAMS but for those that don't want to break into the motor and make that mod. My buddy on and XCT had the tour cams installed and was making 125hp at 119 torque so we got to play coming back from lloydz.
I appreciate the guys like you that have laid this stuff out in the past and enabled me to get my plan together last year and by end of this summer have one heck of a ride!
Will there be a set of cams in the future for her??? Very possible but if I had did them already I would just be thinking about upgrading my exhaust... lol... Good post bud, hope some folks find the info useful!!!
Safe riding,
Tim | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States | Thanks guys! More to think about - I am in the habit of going over 4500 RPM =) | |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Talk to Lloydz he has a new fuel tuner coming out that he feels is as good as the PCV if not better and its self tuning. Kevinx is testing right now | |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | Speaking of fuel tuners, I see that Protwin has one out also, it's only good for 2010 and up bikes.
http://protwin.com/freedomtuningsystemsstage1tuner.aspx | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | talexander - 2014-01-06 6:36 PM
Thanks guys! More to think about - I am in the habit of going over 4500 RPM =)
In that case, a set of Lloydz cams and a rev-limit increase are in order. They need to be fed, so a top filter and a fuel controller are in order. You'll be in the 105 to 115 range on both torque and horsepower with just those things running through the stock exhaust. Those numbers can be improved a bit, or the operating range moved a bit, with the adjustable intake and timing wheel.
The cams do lose a small amount of torque compared to the stock cams, but it's not a lost cause. It can be recovered in a variety of ways. One is Lloydz ECU reprogram, which has a better timing and fuel map than stock, in addition to the increased rev-limit (to 6400 in ALL gears). Another way is Lloydz adjustable timing wheel, which is widely reported to boost low end torque (I don't have that). In addition, Lloydz adjustable intake, like the one Tim is using, is good for boosting low end torque and mid-range. These can all be used together if you wish.
I have the Lloydz ECU and do NOT have the adjustable timing wheel (it came out later), but I've been watching it with interest. The adjustable timing wheel seems to be working best for most people with the recommended 4 degree advance. Lloydz ECU reprogram is reported to already add 2 degrees advance, and some of those who have it and then get the timing wheel have reported that another 4 degrees is too much and have set it back to 2 degrees. 2+2=4?
If I were to add anything else to my own bike, which has cams, top filter, ECU, and VFCIII, it would be the adjustable intake. It would improve the low end and mid range and maybe even the cruising fuel economy.
Tim, I agree that the Honkers sound great, and I'm not against running a moderately louder pipe. In my case, I have a loud bike, that sounds awesome, for the times when I want to hear the pipes roar (my 2000 SC), and that thing makes my ears ring and my head hurt after very many miles. I've even taken some fairly long trips on it. Those trips convinced me that I wanted my new Vision to remain as quiet as possible, since its primary purpose is long trips. Having come off a Goldwing, I knew the kind of power that I wanted in a touring bike, and I wanted it quiet. I've got it.
Talexander, decide what you want out of your bike, then call Lloydz, or Rylan at the Vic Shop, or KevinX at Polaris of Gainesville, and form a plan. Spend your money once and get it right the first time. If you are "in the habit of going over 4500 RPM", then forget about any of the factory Stage "X" stuff and go with Lloydz stuff. If you want to make more noise, the shops I mentioned can steer you in the right direction for pipes too. Pipes affect the torque curve (and not always for the best). Lloyd designed his cams to work with the stock pipes, and those aftermarket pipes that emulate the torque curve of the stock pipes.
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Tim, Ronnie, I'm a little confused. How does the Adjustable Air Intake work WITH the Lloydz 2nd Breather? Wouldn't one cancel out the other?
Edited by Nozzledog 2014-01-07 12:31 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD | No problem Nozzledog, (and I am not motor head engineer) but as it was explained to me by Lloyd the velocity stack is improving the flow of the air as it is moved through stack by reducing venturi of the air flow, not the bulk volume of it. He used the water example for me to better understand as in 3/4" hose pushing water into 1/4" port created a jet coming out. Made perfect sense to me. The upper filter is SUPPOSED to provide all the air she needs but I still went with the performance up front just for grins. I seen a Dyno of my config without the adjustable intake and while good overal torque was achieved, it was not coming in as strong in the mid 2K rpm and did not hit 114. The 41mm is for stock cams and if I go up to tour I can swap out for the 46mm. I did not get a look at (or don't remember) a dyno sheet with my config AND the tour CAMS before/after the adjustable intake.
Adjustable Timing System (or wheel). One thing to point out concerning adjusting timing here over the ECU which is significant is that using the ATS to alter timing ALSO changes the fuel injection point. So while timing with the ECU of +2 and ATS+2 will give you a overall +4, your fuel injection point just advanced+2. So similar to using the PCV to change the timing, +2 in the PCV would ONLY change the fire point to while the ATS at +4 is giving me across the board fuel and fire. This is straight from Lloyd, no Tim "my interpretation".. lol...
Good thread, thanks for the inputs! Making us all smarter. One thing to note, if you go to the candy store (aka LLoydz) it is as much educational as it is performance improvement. I learned more about both my bikes that day then in a year on the forums. Strongly recommend a site visit during the riding months there or see Rylan, etc and see first hand how these performance folks are creating improved performance...
Edited by Tims_11Vision 2014-01-07 6:09 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Nozzledog - 2014-01-07 12:25 AM
Tim, Ronnie, I'm a little confused. How does the Adjustable Air Intake work WITH the Lloydz 2nd Breather? Wouldn't one cancel out the other?
Tim explained it well.
Ronnie | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States | Thanks again Rdbudd! I only live @ 1 1/2 hours from Rylan. I will probably do the work myself then take it over to have him dyno it. I am sticking with the stock pipes on this one. I ride @ 20K a year and as I get older I am enjoying the radio more than the exhaust noise =) | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | talexander - 2014-01-07 6:58 PM
Thanks again Rdbudd! I only live @ 1 1/2 hours from Rylan. I will probably do the work myself then take it over to have him dyno it. I am sticking with the stock pipes on this one. I ride @ 20K a year and as I get older I am enjoying the radio more than the exhaust noise =)
You're welcome Sir.
Tim's bike and dyno chart is an excellent example of what can be accomplished with stock cams, and is also an excellent example of the limitation of the stock cams.
The fun is about over by 4500 RPM with the stock cams, but low end torque is great. Low end throttle response is very good. The 5th gear passing power punch is great, up to about 80-85 MPH. The fat part of the torque curve lasts about 2500 RPM. It makes for a fun bike for most riding situations.
The VM1 cams perform much like the stock cams below 4500 RPM, albeit with slightly less low end torque (maybe 106-110 instead of 114), BUT then they maintain that torque all the way out to 5700-5800 RPM before the curve starts to fall off. The VM1s continue to pull hard past 6000 RPM. The torque curve stays nearly level over a range of 3500 RPM. The fun lasts until 135+ MPH, if you have the speed limiter removed.
Here is a very early chart (not my bike, but I did the same mods) of a 2008 Vision with nothing more than a VFCIII, a top filter, the original VM1 cams, and stock exhaust. No timing wheel, no adjustable intake (those weren't on the market yet). Adding the timing wheel and the adjustable intake would bring those numbers below 4500 RPM up, and probably move the point the peak HP occurs back by about 500 RPM.
In "non-normal" riding situations, like flogging through the gears against a fast Harley or a Goldwing, and shifting at 6000 RPM, your bike is going to be operating in the 3800 to 6000 RPM range in the 1st to 2nd shift and 4800 to 6000 RPM range in the 3rd to 4th shift. If you're involved in a 1/4 mile race, you'll just be winding out in 4th at the finish line. With just the cams, VFCIII, and top filter, my bike walks away from GL1800s, with both in 5th gear, at any speed over 45 MPH.
The second chart is of a 2003 Goldwing, for comparison purposes.
Decide what you want out of your bike, then pick your bolt-on parts accordingly.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-08 11:07 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 32
Galesburg, IL | talexander,
This has been a great thread! I started out like you. I have a 2010 and the first things I added were the Lloydz' upper air filter and adjustable timing wheel at +4 (bought from Rylan at his open house in 2013). I added the upper air filter first...I loved the sound it produced! To me, it sounded like there was a 4-barrel opening up underneath me. I then added the adjustable timing wheel. Personally, I thought with these two mods I was quite happy. I had a few times that it surprised me by having the front wheel come off the ground. This was all with the stock exhaust...which I was happy with not hearing it.
I then added the 1/4 turn throttle, S1L2 exhaust (bought used from a member on Facebook...couldn't pass it up...they look better than the stock pipes and have a real good sound), PCV and had it Dyno'd by Rylan in October 2013.
I would say that I'm probably under $1500.00 in parts and having it Dyno'd. I added all the parts myself...quite easy.
I'm quite happy with the way the bike pulls now...heck, I was before too!
We should get together for some rides. I'm about two hours from you in Galesburg, IL.
Good luck!
Mike | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 92
Moncks Corner, SC United States | I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 32
Galesburg, IL | Jimbo62
I found this for rear wheel #'s:
The 106 in the 09-10
Stock 78/97
I think the #'s you are seeing are at the crank. When Rylan (The Vic Shop) did the Dyno, he didn't make any comment to me that it should be much different than what it was.
Trust me, I'm no expert on this stuff...I'm pretty happy with the way it performs. Before I did the pipes, PCV and Dyno I was able to "walk away" from a friend of mine on his stock Hard Ball during a 20MPH roll on...That was with my trunk on and I outweigh him by over 100 lbs too.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| Yes. Crank, or brochure, numbers are approx 14% higher than numbers at the wheel. Also, dyno's are Avery individualized thing. Each dyno can spit out whatever number the operator has it setup to spit out. Many many variables.
Lloyd ran mine on his dyno after cams, vfc, and plate. The numbers were 108x111. I then a month later had it run in a local dyno and it pulled 116x116 with equal temps and altitude. Guess which one is the real numbers in my mind..... Yup. The 108x111.
Get the mods and these engines will be within fractions of eachother. Make lot of the quotes numbers are just inflated bs.... Like my second dyno. Numbers be damned, I love how this thing pulls, have yet to have a GW or a Harley catch it | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 32
Galesburg, IL | Numbers be damned, I love how this thing pulls, have yet to have a GW or a Harley catch it
I agree Jeff! I'm VERY happy on how it pulls my fat butt...and the bike...down the road! Unfortunately, I had the Dyno work done at the end of October so I haven't had a lot of time to enjoy it yet.
One thing I haven't mentioned yet, is that I'm not real happy with the mileage, around 35-36. I know I have added a lot of air to it with the mods I have done, but I thought it would be closer to the 41 mpg range. Again, that might get a little better after I get a chance to ride "normal" and keep my wrist out of it.
Mike | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States | This has been a good thread!
I have talked with Rylan @ the Vic Shop & Danny @ Lloydz - Timing gear & top filter on the way. Gonna see how she runs before deciding on a fuel controller.
All this talk & I am ready to go for a ride - It is finally above 0 so I should be good to go!!!
Thad | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Jimbo62 - 2014-01-09 12:45 AM
I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque.
The 92/109 numbers are at the crankshaft. By the time the power gets transferred through the primary reduction, the transmission, and the final drive, frictional losses eat up 9 HP and about the same TQ, and a typical stock Vision on an honest dyno will show about 83 HP and 100 TQ at the rear wheel. That's the amount of power you actually have to accelerate your bike.
The numbers everybody is reporting from their dyno tests are at the rear wheel, and the frictional losses have already been taken into account. The 110 HP and TQ is the actual power available. So, the increase from the stock 83 HP to 110 HP is really 27 HP, or better than a 32% increase in real, useable power.
The Victory drivetrain is a little more efficient than something like a Goldwing with its shaft drive. The Goldwing loses much more. The Goldwing I posted is advertised as having 118 HP and 125 TQ, but as you can see from the chart I posted earlier, the actual rear wheel power is 97 HP and 103 TQ, or a loss of 21 HP and 22 TQ, due to frictional drivetrain losses.
So, if you cam your Vision and get anything over 97 HP and 103 TQ at the rear wheel, you're going to be in front of the Goldwing----IF you also get rid of the 5500 RPM rev-limiter.
It's a rare Harley that is brave enough to challenge a Goldwing to a race.
110+ HP in a Vision pretty much puts you in the front of the pack, as far as luxury touring bikes from Harley, Victory, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Honda go.
Ronnie | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | FWIW, After a year running the top filter, I recently removed it. My riding style is 2 up, pulling a trailer on interstates to reach our destination which is usually Arkansas mountains and Missouri.
The constant motor sound while running the interstate finally got to me, especially the motor noise when pulling hard up a grade at 75-80mph. Even with full helmets I got tired of it. Put the factory plate back on and it's heavenly highway again. I was surprised at the added engine noise that comes from the top filter at highway speeds. I have the cams, PCV and performance front filter so I'll live with whatever performance decrease I may take on to have my noise levels back to normal.
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Cruiser
Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD | Agreed, this thread has been great! Getting a consolidation of fact out along with proven performance of various configuratons. Ronnie is on the money about the GW (im making 92 and 114) as I run with several of them and they USED to enjoy quick acceleratons and then letting me catch up. No more! While I have purposfully avoided flat races with a couple of them (just to keep peace) they know that the Vtwin is no longer sluggish and not just all bark and no bite.
Getting back to Dyno talk. I know I mentioned it but with so much talk about numbers, I wanted to rehash about tuning on the dyno or using the auto tune. Im usually prone to stick with what is known to work and I went from a VFCIII to a PCV when I went to Lloydz thinking I was going to do the cams but wound up with the variable intake, PCV install and a solid dyno tune. I cannot impress enough how much differnence I seen between the front and rear cans when tuning. And Lloyd loaded a map for my configuration for a baseline and tuned from there. As I said on the previous page, several adjustments were as much as 15% out from front to rear. Lloyd attributed it to injectors primarily along with each engine has its final tweek. When my buddy that got the TourCams on his XCT got on the Dyno I seen a few adjustments from front to rear of 20%. Thats pretty significant I would think but the final runs had the RPM bands smooth and together front and rear. Laying into the throttle now the engine even sounds differnt and when I jump back on my 04 it seems very apparent that matching the cans can be as important and adding the parts to improve performance. I have heard riders (Vision and other engines) say "She is making all kinds of noise but not going anywheres fast". After watching the Dyno run, it seems to me that tuning is 250ish bucks well spent and that is having someone that knows what their doing do it.
Thad since you got the mechanics down I think you got a solid plan getting the tune right after. IMHO it will solidify your mods. Danny at Lloydz is a heck of a good guy to deal with (LLoyd too) and will literaly give you shop if he can. When I was up there, tossed me the keys to the truck and sent me to a MC museum next down over and what a blast that was. "Come back when your ready" he said... Of course it was Lloydz truck so maybe danny wasnt worried about it.. lol.
I do wish I could find a dyno sheet showing the variable intake numbers before and after. I know Lloydz site said approximate 8lb torque increase across the board. I would think that installing that in our garage should not have any negative side effects and based on the price, it aint that much more than putting the ATS wheel on.
Okie I understand what your saying and why you did it. I would be curious to know if running the performance filter with the plug in the inake between the filter and TBs removed would still provide about the same air flow and then if you installed the Varialble intake to smooth out the venturi if that would not replace what you had. I know when I did put the performance filter on mine, the stock was almost like new still and I had been running the upper since about 2K so it had around 13k on it. Alot of contruction on the highway here so I expected it to be much dirtier.
Mike1970 I think you will be fine on your mpg. I came back from NY after the mods at 46, went down to high 30s for the next two months and was getting carpel tunnel syndrome I think. Then on the 3rd month my wrist quit hurting from slamming that 1/4 turn throttle ring and my mpg steadied out at 42 around here mixed highway/local and 48 on the road for trips with cruising around 70-75. More HP/TQ and better MPG. Same over the road trips I would barely make 40, same riding style.
Good stuf all, safe ridin! Mike hope you can get out soon! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 155
Victoria Tx, TX United States | Man? Reading these.. Almost make me want to do something to my '12 Vision. Now just have air filter and stage 1 pipes and reprogramed. Just that open it up. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | You will not be disappointed going w/ new cams. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | adirondacks - 2014-01-09 8:14 PM
You will not be disappointed going w/ new cams.
Agree 100%.
Lloyd did a fantastic job designing his VM1 cams. Unlike many other cam designs (and engine designs), which give up a lot of low end to gain a lot of top end, LLoyd's VM1 design, in combination with the Victory 4 valve heads, really have no downside. Low end is only slightly impacted, (and that can easily be mitigated, and even improved over stock, with ECU, or timing wheel, or adjustable intake), and the mid-range and especially the top end are greatly improved. Fuel economy isn't really affected.
I'm impressed.
Ronnie | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Sorry I'm on the Vision site since I have an XC, but this is a good discussion. Rdbudd - It appears you have the Goldwing sized up. Just curious what your opinion would be between my XC and a Goldwing from about 20mph roll on or dead stop going to 100. Current setup: Lloydz timing gear +4, VM1 DR cams, VFCIII, Llyodz ECU mod and Lloydz air filter. Just wanted to get your take, Thanks. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-10 12:02 PM
Sorry I'm on the Vision site since I have an XC, but this is a good discussion. Rdbudd - It appears you have the Goldwing sized up. Just curious what your opinion would be between my XC and a Goldwing from about 20mph roll on or dead stop going to 100. Current setup: Lloydz timing gear +4, VM1 DR cams, VFCIII, Llyodz ECU mod and Lloydz air filter. Just wanted to get your take, Thanks.
I still hang around and ride with Goldwing riders, most of whom are former sport bike riders, and drag racers, and we still like to play.
Weight is an important consideration. If one of the riders is substantially heavier than the other, the lighter weight rider is going to have the advantage.
That said, if the weights are close, your XC shouldn't have much trouble showing its taillight to a Goldwing.
The Goldwing is geared a little lower than your bike in 1st gear, which gives him more torque multiplication. (It's all about torque and torque multiplication). He might pull you just a bit from a standing start, but stay in it, shift at 6000 RPM, and you'll be even by the end of 2nd gear. You'll start pulling away in 3rd and 4th gear, if you haven't already by the end of 2nd.
Second gear roll-ons will be close, but you should be able to walk the GW a little.
Third gear roll-ons should be in your favor.
In 4th or 5th gear roll-ons situations, such as passing a couple of semis on a two lane road, you'll have to back off to keep from running over the Goldwing.
Why stop at 100 MPH? Your 5th gear is good for 133 MPH, and the Goldwing can't even go that fast under most conditions. Yes, I know their speedometers indicate that they are running 130+ MPH, but every one I've seen are at least 5% optimistic on the upper end. Most won't really run over about 125 MPH, with a tailwind. If you really want to impress the GW rider, do a 5th gear roll-on test (both bikes in 5th) from 90 MPH to 120 MPH and watch him fall behind.
Don't get sucked into the argument that you should both be in your respective top gears when doing top gear roll-ons, because it's an apples and oranges comparison. The Goldwing has a five speed transmission, and "technically" has overdrive in 5th (5th gear is an overdriven ratio), but their primary and final drive ratios are lower than the Victory and they are turning 3000 RPM @70 MPH. The Victory is turning 3150 RPM @ 70 MPH in 5th gear, and only 2650 RPM @ 70 MPH in 6th gear. If you try to do a roll-on against the GW when it is in 5th and you're in 6th gear, you've handicapped yourself by reducing your power by 13% compared to the GW. The GW doesn't "really have" an effective overdrive and certainly has no 6th gear. Insist on running gear for gear. Insist on doing every test with both in the same gears, 1 though 5.
Just say "I'll match you gear for gear, in any gear you've got".
If you're flogging through the gears to reach a certain ultimate speed, such as 100 MPH, then shift at 6000 RPM each and every time, 1-2, 2-3, 3-4. You'll hit 100 MPH at 5600 RPM in 4th. If you both got an equal start, such as rolling from 20 MPH in 1st gear, the GW will be behind you.
Be forewarned: the GW is geared for 114 in 4th and you're geared for 107 (at 6000 RPM each). If you hold 4th too long, he will catch you, and even pass you eventually. Simply shift into 5th somewhere between 100 and 107 MPH (5600 to 6000 RPM), and you'll keep him in your rear view. He will never catch you until you're ready to slow down.
Gear for gear, 1st through 5th, (especially in 3rd, 4th, and 5th) you should be able to walk the GW, unless you've consumed 100 pounds more Big Macs than he did.
These observations are based on my Vision running against Goldwings. Our combined rider/bike weights are about 1100 to 1120 pounds. If you're that weight or lighter than that, it's to your advantage. If you and your bike together weigh more than 1200 pounds, you may have a problem with the GW.
The Vision might be more aerodynamic than a XC, which might make some difference at higher speeds.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-10 6:59 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Awesome thanks for the info. I finally got to run it out this weekend after I got my ECU mod done. Wow really smoothed everything out, all smiles. I thought about the weight I'm lighter. I'm 240+ Bike 850lbs? = 1090. This sould be good he is about 170lbs and a more experienced rider. Okay I feel more comfortable talking smack now. HAHAHA. I don't normally talk smack, but when he said that Harleys can't run even close to his Wing, I said this isnt a Harley. In fact he wouldn't even get his bike out to make a run. It's time to visit the old man again and once we are done, I'll point him to the Victory shop and tell him to buy a Vision. You can't make that Wing any faster. HAHAHA | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-13 9:20 AM
Awesome thanks for the info. I finally got to run it out this weekend after I got my ECU mod done. Wow really smoothed everything out, all smiles. I thought about the weight I'm lighter. I'm 240+ Bike 850lbs? = 1090. This sould be good he is about 170lbs and a more experienced rider. Okay I feel more comfortable talking smack now. HAHAHA. I don't normally talk smack, but when he said that Harleys can't run even close to his Wing, I said this isnt a Harley. In fact he wouldn't even get his bike out to make a run. It's time to visit the old man again and once we are done, I'll point him to the Victory shop and tell him to buy a Vision. You can't make that Wing any faster. HAHAHA
Nope, it's not a Harley. He probably does not realize this and doesn't take your bike seriously. You might have to "egg him on" by getting him to do some 55 MPH 5th gear roll-ons while out on a normal ride. That should get his interest piqued. If he is a typical Goldwing rider, he is complacent about his bike's performance compared to most "Harleys". He probably doesn't think there is any point in playing. That's to your advantage, at least at first............
Your bike/rider combined weights are close enough that we can consider them nearly equal. 30 pounds difference does make a difference, but it's not real significant at the power to weight ratios of these machines. Plus of minus 30 pounds on these machines is about equal to plus or minus 1 or 1 1/2 MPH at the end of the quarter mile race.
The Goldwing is no slouch, as far as touring bikes go (it's long been considered the performance king in the luxury touring bike category), so don't take it lightly. You're going to have to be on your toes and pay attention to your shift points.
If he is an experienced rider, and has experience flogging his bike through the gears, he will be shifting at 6000+ RPM, and might even be "power shifting" (fanning the clutch and shifting while holding the throttle open). With your setup now, you should also be shifting at 6000 RPM.
If he wants to do a low speed rolling start (like 10 MPH) in 1st gear, do not be surprised if he pulls you initially, due to the gearing and smoothness of the GW. Just stay in it and you'll catch him in second gear. You really should NOT try a rolling start, with full clutch engagement, at any speed below 15 MPH, because of the gearing of your bike. If you start at 20 MPH instead, he probably won't pull you at all. When doing really low speed rolling starts, I just roll into the throttle instead of just whacking it open. You can have the throttle fully open by 2200-2300 RPM. Roll into the throttle only as fast as you can without sending your motor into violent shakes. Making your motor "hammer" is bad for your bearings. Don't do it. I suggest you go out by yourself and practice this before challenging anyone. You'll see what I mean.
The GW can lug down to 1000 RPM, which is slightly less than 7 MPH, or even slower, with the clutch fully engaged in 1st gear.
You CANNOT do that without a lot of driveline lash, and stress to your engine. 7 MPH in 1st gear on your bike is less than the idle speed of your motor. It's the difference between a flat six vs V-Twin, plus gearing differences. The GW is geared lower than you. It is what it is. Try to do your roll-on contest above 2000 RPM, and if you're lower than that, like 1500 RPM (11 MPH) just roll into the throttle until you get above 2000 RPM.
As I said before, don't take the GW lightly, and don't talk "too much" smack. If both of you do everything right, you'll have about 1/3 of a second and a 4 MPH advantage on him at the end of a quarter mile, and will be running 100+ MPH in 4th gear (both of you). That's a few bike lengths. If you miss a gear and he does not, he'll likely beat you.
Your bike is faster than his, but you'll have to do your part.
Go out by yourself and practice some low speed starts in the 1st, or whatever gears you think you'll be using, and also do some runs through the gears. Get the feel for your machine's capabilities and limitations. ALL machines have capabilities and limitations. You need to know what they are BEFORE challenging your buddy.
Cammed Victory XC and Visions make for fun racing against GL1800s. It can turn out to be anybody's race. Do everything right, and it will be YOUR race to the win.
You might be interested in this article that I wrote nearly three years ago, concerning the performance of Goldwings and Visions. http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8212&pos...
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-13 11:02 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Thanks, sounds like fun to me. He did say he would what until spring to run so I could get use to my bike. I purchased it in Oct13 and had the Llyodz Air and VFCIII put on at purchase and True Duals (I know those don't help down low, but I like them), I rode for about 2 weeks off and on and due to weather I only put 600 miles on the bike. I had to put the bike in the shop for a condesation leak in my radio. So while I was there I went ahead and got the VM1s and Timming Wheel then road about another 2 weeks 600 miles, and then sent my ECU/ECM off to Lloydz (Waited 2 weeks). Thanks for the advice you are right I need more seat time and that really hurts my feelings. :-) I'll just get him out on a normal ride this sring and not say anything and see if he bites the bait. We have ridden together before, but I was on a Vstar 1300 and him on some Harley with a trunk? not sure what model that is I don't keep up with Harley that much. Long short he couldn't keep up with my Vstar so he traded his Harley in for the Wing. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | BradXC, your posts sound like what my brother and me have been doing over the last several years. LOL! He had a '09 RoadGlide and I have my '08 Vision. He got so tired of me beating him that he ended up spending about 5 grand adding stuff to his bike to just to catch up. And still couldn't beat me from a dead stop start. He just sold his RoadGlide last month and bought a GoldWing and he still can't figure why he can't beat me. He can get me off the line now, but by the time we get to 3rd gear, I'm passing him up slowly but surely. My bike is still stock motor wise and I've been itching to try Lloyd's timing gear to get a little more grunt down low, but I'm going to wait till I buy a new Vision, add it and tell my brother that Victory has just improved their performance and egg him on for another one. I'm just sneaky that way!!!! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 155
Victoria Tx, TX United States | LMAO purchase a new Vision and say they did it? Good Choice!! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 155
Victoria Tx, TX United States | LMAO purchase a new Vision and say they did it? Good Choice!! | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Jimbo62 - 2014-01-09 12:45 AM
I have about the same set up on my 11 Vision, and I love the difference over stock. I have to ask you though, are you sure on the numbers for H.P. and Torque? I just did a check, and a stock Vision should be putting out about 92 HP and 109 Torque. I am about to pull the trigger on a set of Cams, and think I should be over 110 HP when all is said and done. I have a good friend who has been running this set up and I think he is at about 115 HP and around the same for torque.
stock http://www.lloydz.com/graphs/48-106-Vision3.jpg
source http://www.lloydz.com/dyno.asp | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Just to follow up. The old man came by and said lets go, so I went. He was impressed with the power of my XC, it wasn't really even close from start to finsh. We started a rolling start about 25 mph up to 120 mph and I pulled him all the way to 120 5/6? bike length might have been more. I will say after we rode I asked him all kinds of questions about his Wing and man those things have everything. I thought he was going to tell me you can use the restroom on the bike some how. Those wings are smooth with all kinds of bells and whistles and run pretty good too. I can only image what the Visions will do. Thanks for all the input.
Edited by BradXC 2014-01-21 9:00 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | BradXC - 2014-01-21 8:56 AM
Just to follow up. The old man came by and said lets go, so I went. He was impressed with the power of my XC, it wasn't really even close from start to finsh. We started a rolling start about 25 mph up to 120 mph and I pulled him all the way to 120 5/6? bike length might have been more. I will say after we rode I asked him all kinds of questions about his Wing and man those things have everything. I thought he was going to tell me you can use the restroom on the bike some how. Those wings are smooth with all kinds of bells and whistles and run pretty good too. I can only image what the Visions will do. Thanks for all the input.
Fun, no?
As somebody once said, it's more fun riding slow bikes fast than riding fast bikes slow.
As a former Goldwing rider, I consider the Vision to be the V-Twin version of a Goldwing, which is a compliment.
Cammed Visions and cammed Cross Country Tour bikes are pretty much equal competitors to the Goldwings, with each doing some things slightly better than the others. The Victorys and the Goldwings are the class leaders in performance, function, handling, and comfort. The offerings from Harley, Yamaha, and Kawasaki offer less of each. In some categories, much less, IMHO.
Ronnie
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| It was a blast!! We both were smiling the whole time, him not as much, but he was happy to see what my XC would do. I just wanted to make sure when I ride with Wings I wouldn't get left behind , that was the purpose of my test.
My last bike was a Vstar1300 and I really like the bike, but I'm 6'4" and it was a little small, I also didn't like taking it on longer rides. (it's not really for that) Needless to say I fixed my problem, I can't get off my XC, I've only had it since Oct, and I'm really impressed. Could some things be improved, sure, but handling and performance is not on my short list.
Just so you know how I am. If it has 2 wheels I want to ride it. A kid came by my house on a scooter with some speakers added on it, which sounded good. I said can I take for a spin, he let me. It was funny looking, but I had fun riding it around town.
Edited by BradXC 2014-01-21 10:50 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision.
Ronnie | |
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Tourer
Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States | rdbudd - 2014-01-22 6:52 PM Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision. Ronnie Ronnie, you can't just "try" a Vision, you know better than that. Whats the saying, "ride one and you'll own one". | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | ljurgens - 2014-01-23 7:49 AM
rdbudd - 2014-01-22 6:52 PM Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision. Ronnie Ronnie, you can't just "try" a Vision, you know better than that. Whats the saying, "ride one and you'll own one". ?
Heh Heh Heh!
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | Some quotes from my framed copy of "Motorcycle Wisdom Of The Roads"
: Never try to race an old Geezer - he may have one more gear than you
: Grey Haired riders don't get that way from pure luck
: If the bike ain't braking properly - you don't start by rebuilding the engine
oh yeah ...
: Never argue with a woman holding a torque wrench
..... just 'buzzin' before bedtime .... sssknn..orrrrr
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Tourer
Posts: 415
| Not many Goldwings in my area, just LOTS of Harleys and they like to talk smack until we are out riding.
Or maybe they are still talking, just so far behind I can't hear them any more?
(125HP 121TQ Dyno.jpg)
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125HP 121TQ Dyno.jpg (71KB - 2 downloads)
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
| Tim: What is this "variable intake"? "but wound up with the variable intake, PCV install and a solid dyno tune." | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | #57 - 2014-01-30 8:14 AM
Not many Goldwings in my area, just LOTS of Harleys and they like to talk smack until we are out riding.
Or maybe they are still talking, just so far behind I can't hear them any more?
Are those the VM1 cams, or the new "touring" cams?
Ronnie | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | Hey wingit
Its a stack that sits on top of the motor intake and the upper air filter. You have to sleeves install inside the barrels of the stack, 41mm and 44. I had the 41mm installed. I also installed Lloydz plate/spacer which gets u another 6 - 8hp. I don't have the performance heads but with the 1st gen cams the biked dyno'd at 122 rwhp, 120 ft/lb | |
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Tourer
Posts: 415
| I replaced the VM1's with the new Touring Cams. Bike has stock pistons. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
| Street Eagle: Thanks I have been a believer in them since had them. To ram tune the truck I think it was Long for low RPM & short for high RPM | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | I just ordered the VM1 cams and the adjustable timing gear . Now I'm wondering if I should have ordered the Touring cams instead, Hmmmm. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kin52 - 2014-02-03 10:19 AM
I just ordered the VM1 cams and the adjustable timing gear . Now I'm wondering if I should have ordered the Touring cams instead, Hmmmm.
I may be mistaken on this point, but I think the VM1 cams are a simple drop in replacement cam, while the "touring performance" cams require some machine work and different springs to install.
You should raise your rev-limiter to 6400 or 6500 with either type of cam to get all the performance they have to offer.
Ronnie | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams.
I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams . | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kin52 - 2014-02-03 9:31 PM
Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams.
I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams .
You're all set then.
Still, I believe you'll find that, in practice, the extended rev-limit is far more important than the extra 6 to 8 horsepower. Of course the extra 6 to 8 HP, along with the extended rev-limit, would be ideal.
The stock cams quit by about 4000 to 4500 RPM, and the factory set the rev-limit at 5500, which was okay because the stock cams aren't pulling anymore at that speed anyway. However, with Lloydz cams, the motor really comes into it's own at 3500 to 4000 RPM and keeps on pulling well past 6000 RPM. Your peak numbers won't go up much, if any, with the rev-extend, but your powerband will be that much wider, and you'll be keeping your motor in the sweet spot when flogging through the gears. It makes a real difference in the performance.
Ronnie | |
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Tourer
Posts: 415
| My biggest reason for the rev extender was the cams rev so fast I was constantly hitting the rev limiter in first and second.
Now only hit on real cool mornings when playing around.
Agree with everything Ronnie says. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | I'm doing the reflashed ecu as well just not until the cams and Adjustable timing gear are in and tested.
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | kin52 - 2014-02-03 9:31 PM Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams. I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams . It is not a question of getting the machining done. The touring cams require more bike disassembly than the VM1 cams. You need to judge your effort against performance improvement and recognize that so called touring cams are all about high end performance, not typical touring conditions. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kin52 - 2014-02-04 2:52 PM
I'm doing the reflashed ecu as well just not until the cams and Adjustable timing gear are in and tested.
If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.
I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.
Ronnie | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
Clinton, CT | Went with the touring cams, installed by Kyle (KMC Powersports) in Westerly RI. Yes, they are more involved, more expensive and yes the added gains are not really in the "heart" of the cruising RPM's.
To offer a humble opinion, if you don't ride like a juvenile delinquent (which I do on a regular basis) I would offer the VM1 cams are overall a better value. I went with the touring cams (and associated complimenting parts) for my riding style and can say that the improvements were well worth it- but I tend to wring the bike out a bit! Add in the D&D mufflers and the 1/4 turn throttle ring and the bike is a completely different experience.
As for true touring, the wife and I (together weighing around 450lbs plus gear) loaded up and took a 3 day trip up to Maine, through New Hampshire and Vermont and back down into Connecticut last fall and the bike was flawless. The added power and torque was evident and HUGELY useful, especially on a few occasions when needed to execute a few tight highway passes.
Pricy, but a lot of value-add...
/r
Allen | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Not having the rev limit extended after cams is like a women that lets you get to third base real fast, and then cuts you off when you are headed for home. Blue balls HAHAHA.
rdbudd - I'm working on him. I think he would really like the Vision, I just need to get his old butt on one. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 39
| This thread is great. I really appreciate all the info for the different arrangements.
I wish I had the money for cams now, and it's good to know that I don't have to decide on a fuel controller before starting with the timing system and top filter. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | rdbudd - 2014-02-04 5:29 PM
If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.
I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.
Ronnie
First, thanks for such a great thread with valuable information.
Second, now my question. Will the ECU program provide any additional benefits over what the PC5 can do? I ask because winter is coming and it would be a good time to send my ECU to Lloydz prior to spring. I'm currently stock but plan on doing everything except a big bore and exhaust. Coming from a 107" Jackpot the only option available was a reprogrammed ECU since the PC3 doesn't have the capability of extending the rev limit. So being new to the Vision world I haven't looked into as much performance mods as I had with the Jackpot. Below are what I plan on doing either by next spring or in the summer. Until I get the cams installed I am going to try and run with just the O2 sensors unplugged and get it dyno'd at the same time as the cam install (going to see Rylan at some point!)
PC5
ECU?
Adjustable Intake
Vision Intake Filter (top filter) - on order
Adjustable timing system - going to order and install this winter
VM1-DR Cams
1/4 turn throttle - on order
IAV (if necessary)
Stock Exhaust
Anything I'm forgetting?
Thanks! | |
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Tourer
Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM | From what I've read, a Llyod's reprogrammed ECU rev limit is 6500 rpm while the PCV rev limit is 6000 rpm. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Rowebote - 2014-10-06 12:29 PM
rdbudd - 2014-02-04 5:29 PM
If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.
I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.
Ronnie
First, thanks for such a great thread with valuable information.
Second, now my question. Will the ECU program provide any additional benefits over what the PC5 can do? I ask because winter is coming and it would be a good time to send my ECU to Lloydz prior to spring. I'm currently stock but plan on doing everything except a big bore and exhaust. Coming from a 107" Jackpot the only option available was a reprogrammed ECU since the PC3 doesn't have the capability of extending the rev limit. So being new to the Vision world I haven't looked into as much performance mods as I had with the Jackpot. Below are what I plan on doing either by next spring or in the summer. Until I get the cams installed I am going to try and run with just the O2 sensors unplugged and get it dyno'd at the same time as the cam install (going to see Rylan at some point!)
PC5
ECU?
Adjustable Intake
Vision Intake Filter (top filter) - on order
Adjustable timing system - going to order and install this winter
VM1-DR Cams
1/4 turn throttle - on order
IAV (if necessary)
Stock Exhaust
Anything I'm forgetting?
Thanks!
It's probably a toss-up between the benefits of the PC5 VS the Lloydz ECU reprogram. If you stay with the stock exhaust, or use one that mimics the torque curve of the stock exhaust, you probably don't need a PC5 and a VFCIII would be fine. If you go messing around with the exhaust, you often end up with a messed up torque curve and then the PC5 is needed to compensate for the peaks and valleys that the exhaust caused. Your call.
There is a functional difference between the PC5 and Lloydz ECU as far as the way the rev limits are increased.
The PC5 can alter timing (above 2500 RPM) as well as fuel delivery. The VFCIII only adds fuel. Both are a slave to what the ECU is telling them, and the ECU does ALL the temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure compensating, regardless of which controller you use (contrary to internet scuttlebutt). The ECU is in charge. The PC5 DOES NOT compensate for altitude, temperature, etc. Neither does the VFCIII. The controllers piggyback the ECU.
Lloydz ECU reprogram alters the base timing and fuel delivery curves according to a dyno developed program. He increases timing about 2 degrees, which aids low end power. If you add the adjustable timing wheel, you probably won't want to advance it the full 4 degrees. Some people have found that they can't use any more advance from the wheel without pinging, or they are limited to 2 degrees (2+2=4 (over 2500 RPM)). He increases the rev limit to 6400 RPM in all 6 gears. This lets you take full advantage of the cams, and it removes the top speed limiter, and you can pull as much speed as you have power for. I've seen 140 on a good day.
The PC5 has the ability to alter timing above 2500 RPM and the bike can still benefit from the timing wheel. It can compensate for aftermarket exhausts by virtue of the ability to both add and subtract fuel. The PC5 increases the rev limit by adding RPM over the limits in the stock ECU. The stock ECU limits RPM to 5250 in 1st, 5500 in 2nd through 5th, and 4550 in 6th gear. The regular option that comes with the PC5 is for a 500 RPM increase over stock. Thus, you get 5750 in 1st gear (not enough to take full advantage of the cams) 6000 (5950) in 2nd through 5th gear (still not enough if you want to shift as you go past 6000, which you want to if you want to get the most from the cams), and 5050 RPM in 6th gear, which gets you a new 133 MPH limit before the speed limiter kicks in. You can call Dynojet and get the code to increase the limits another 500 RPM, and then you're limited to 6250 in 1st, 6500 in 2nd through 5th, and 5550 in 6th. That'll make full use of the cams.
BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.
I can pretty much guarantee you that with your stock exhaust, adding cams, top filter, fuel controller (I use a VFCIII), and a rev extension to 6400 or 6500 RPM (I have Lloydz ECU--6400 in all 6) will put you in front of GL1800 Goldwings in drag racing, passing power, and top speed. It won't be a huge advantage, but they will be buying the beer if one was bet on the outcome.
Rylan installed my cams and top filter and tuned the bike using ( KevinX's?) VFCIII road test method. No dyno available at the time. I like it. Could a dyno session improve it? Maybe I'll find out someday.
If I were to add anything to my bike, (Cams, VFCIII, top filter Lloydz ECU, stock exhaust) it will be Lloydz adjustable intake. I already have enough timing increase, since I can induce slight pinging in hot weather under heavy loads in a high gear. A downshift stops it.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-06 5:10 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | rdbudd - 2014-10-06 4:50 PM
..........
BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.
.........
Ronnie
That's some good advice! I am planning on giving Rylan a call before I get to carried away with any purchases. I am thinking of the pc5 over the vfc partially due to being able to individually tune each cylinder and if I change my mind later about a big bore. When I did the Jackpot I originally went with a vfc but needed to change it when I did the big bore. So with the added tunability combined with future potential I like the pc5 option. But I will defer to Rylan's advice. Once again thanks for a great explanation!
Chris | |
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | The ECU change does more than change the rev limiter. The main purpose is to change the timing of the gearing. I have the ECU installed with CAMS...etc. I can stay in a gear longer than a non-ECU. So it get me to the 3k revolution quicker to harness the power at the RPM levels. If I did it all over again, I would still get the ECU changed. Best of luck to you!! | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Rowebote - 2014-10-06 7:36 PM
rdbudd - 2014-10-06 4:50 PM
..........
BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.
.........
Ronnie
That's some good advice! I am planning on giving Rylan a call before I get to carried away with any purchases. I am thinking of the pc5 over the vfc partially due to being able to individually tune each cylinder and if I change my mind later about a big bore. When I did the Jackpot I originally went with a vfc but needed to change it when I did the big bore. So with the added tunability combined with future potential I like the pc5 option. But I will defer to Rylan's advice. Once again thanks for a great explanation!
Chris
Given your short term and possible big bore goals, the PC5 is probably the way to go.
If you are performance oriented and not afraid to accept a challenge when somebody wants a drag race or just flog 'em through the gears, with the VM1 cams, you will want to shift just as the tach reaches and passes through 6000 RPM. You need the ability to hold the throttle and fan the clutch as you shift at 6000. A 6000 RPM rev limit is too limiting--you will be smacking into the limiter every time just before you want to shift, especially on the 1st to 2nd shift. You need a little more room. You need a 6400 to 6500 RPM limiter. Get the code from Dynojet to add 1000 RPM to the PC5. The increased rev limit won't gain you any more power, but it will let you stay in each gear longer, which is important, especially when running against Goldwings. It's all about the gearing.
Given your goals, run this list past Rylan.
Keep the stock ECU
Stock exhaust
Scratch off the IAC
PC5 with 1000 RPM rev limit extension
Lloydz VM1 or VM1-HP cams
Lloydz Adjustable timing wheel
Lloydz Adjustable intake
Lloydz top filter
This will give you a quiet and powerful sleeper that the Goldwing and Harley crowds will never suspect. Lot's of fun showing them your taillights with your "stock and quiet" Vision. When they ask, just say you got a good tune. 
Ronnie | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
| Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ? | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | wingit3611 - 2014-10-09 10:08 AM
Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ?
It's not needed. It doesn't increase airflow, especially on the build I'm thinking of with stock bore. I don't think it's necessary on a big bore either but rdubb will better answer that. Only advantage is that you have a reusable filter instead of a paper one. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | So this is where I am at. I have L1S2 pipes with Atom Bomb mod. I added the Lloydz top filter. Next KevinX added the VFC-III and timing wheel set at +4.
Bike keeps getting better and better! So next I changed the cams and put in Lloydz HOH-VM1-DR cams. I used the VFC settings Lloydz recommended.
I only rode the bike on a couple of short rides. Very happy. I could not really get on it due to a week of rain. I did however notice right away that I was on the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. So, I sent the ECM out for the reflash. Lloyd said use the same settings because they only make minor changes to the fuel map.
After I got the ECM back I cannot get the bike dialed in. It stumbles off idle and surges bad in slow traffic between 2000 and 2500 RMPs. When you get on it it is scary fast. My timing wheel is still set at +4 and no ping after the reflash. I called KevinX and he gave me different settings till I can get a dyno tune. Ran worse. I have been just trying my own settings. I have managed to wildly vary my fuel economy and get it better, but not right.
I ordered the variable intake with 44 MM insertsa and will have tham Monday, than I will make an appointment with Kevin to get this thing dialed in. I can not wait.
One other thing I notivced it the way the onboard computer works. It is still horribly off, always showes 7-8 mpg higher than actual, but when I coast now it only goes up to about 70 on the instant economy. It used to go to 99 as soon as you let off the throttle.
Anybody with a similar set-up have an idea what to set the VFM to? I should see Kevin in a week or so if I can't figure it out it's not a big deal. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Sorry for the typos, sent from my phone. I just ordered the Ness front filter from Meancycles in Miami. $57. I figure the stock paper one has 31,000 miles on it so it may be time to change. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Oh, and I forgot to mention. I've throw the same error code twice after the ECM reflashed. 205520 I think. It's a lean condition I believe. How is that possible with the O2 sensors disconnected? | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | I would if I lived in Fla. go see Mr.X asap and let him fix what's wrong with my bike and if that's not possible I would get a PCV with the AT-300 and be done with this problem. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Correct code was 520205 | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Rowebote - 2014-10-09 11:21 AM
wingit3611 - 2014-10-09 10:08 AM
Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ?
It's not needed. It doesn't increase airflow, especially on the build I'm thinking of with stock bore. I don't think it's necessary on a big bore either but rdubb will better answer that. Only advantage is that you have a reusable filter instead of a paper one.
+1
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | cw1115 - 2014-10-10 5:18 PM
So this is where I am at. I have L1S2 pipes with Atom Bomb mod. I added the Lloydz top filter. Next KevinX added the VFC-III and timing wheel set at +4.
Bike keeps getting better and better! So next I changed the cams and put in Lloydz HOH-VM1-DR cams. I used the VFC settings Lloydz recommended.
I only rode the bike on a couple of short rides. Very happy. I could not really get on it due to a week of rain. I did however notice right away that I was on the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. So, I sent the ECM out for the reflash. Lloyd said use the same settings because they only make minor changes to the fuel map.
After I got the ECM back I cannot get the bike dialed in. It stumbles off idle and surges bad in slow traffic between 2000 and 2500 RMPs. When you get on it it is scary fast. My timing wheel is still set at +4 and no ping after the reflash. I called KevinX and he gave me different settings till I can get a dyno tune. Ran worse. I have been just trying my own settings. I have managed to wildly vary my fuel economy and get it better, but not right.
I ordered the variable intake with 44 MM insertsa and will have tham Monday, than I will make an appointment with Kevin to get this thing dialed in. I can not wait.
One other thing I notivced it the way the onboard computer works. It is still horribly off, always showes 7-8 mpg higher than actual, but when I coast now it only goes up to about 70 on the instant economy. It used to go to 99 as soon as you let off the throttle.
Anybody with a similar set-up have an idea what to set the VFM to? I should see Kevin in a week or so if I can't figure it out it's not a big deal.
Kevin will get it right for you.
Given the fact that you screwed with the exhaust system, the VFCIII may not be able to compensate enough. Kevin will know after a dyno run or two. Kevin MAY have to end up installing a PC5 to deal with the exhaust system.
The trip computer MPG function will never be accurate, especially after adding any type of fuel controller. It will be optimistic. This is because the trip computer gets its information ahead of what the fuel controller is doing. It does not show the added fuel being used under heavy throttle, or recognize that your throttle opening is at times less than what was required when stock. In actuality, your real fuel economy under cruise conditions will be close to what it was stock. You cannot use the trip computer's fuel economy function as an indicator of proper tuning. You will just be chasing ghosts trying to do that. Kevin will get the AFRs right, and the fuel economy will come in line along with the performance.
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Thanks Ronnie. I didn't think the Ness filter would do much with the top filter installed. My thinking is not have to buy a filter again.
Any idea how I can throw a lean condition code with O2 sensors unplugged.
By the way there is a gen IV VFC. It is similar to the PFC with an auto tune function. It is available now but not on the website yet. I forget the price Erica quoted me. Four something. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | cw1115 - 2014-10-11 6:55 PM
Thanks Ronnie. I didn't think the Ness filter would do much with the top filter installed. My thinking is not have to buy a filter again.
Any idea how I can throw a lean condition code with O2 sensors unplugged.
By the way there is a gen IV VFC. It is similar to the PFC with an auto tune function. It is available now but not on the website yet. I forget the price Erica quoted me. Four something.
The "performance filter" is re-usable and worth having for that reason. I've not seen any definitive numbers to prove that the reusable front filter actually flows more air through the front induction tract than the paper filter. The addition of the top filter definitely adds more air flow.
I suspect you just don't have the VFCIII set right for the cams, top filter, and pipe combination, because you describe a lean stumble between 2000 and 2500 RPM. At some point, you are going too lean and throwing the code. Lean means you need more fuel, or the transition setting isn't quite right yet. If so, Kevin should be able to set the VFCIII on his dyno. You've already said that it runs good higher in the range. Probably just needs fine tuning of the VFCIII. He also has a road test method that works well for setting the VFCIII. Did he mention it to you? It involves real time testing on the road and making adjustments on the fly. It does require a person to have a "feel" for what is happening, but it works.
Every bike is different. Different people's complete combinations are different. Suggested baseline settings are just a starting point. Using somebody else's settings may get you close, but the final tune will have to be done on your bike.
I'm aware of the new VFCIV, but have no experience with it. Kevin knows as much about it as anyone and has used one. His initial reviews were very positive.
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Thanks again Ronnie. I understand all that but what I can figure out is how does the ECM "know" or thinks it knows it is lean if the oxygen sensors are not hooked up? The a/f signal to the ECM should never change now. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | cw1115 - 2014-10-12 7:19 AM
Thanks again Ronnie. I understand all that but what I can figure out is how does the ECM "know" or thinks it knows it is lean if the oxygen sensors are not hooked up? The a/f signal to the ECM should never change now.
You got me with that one because I'm not 100% sure. I think the ECU just goes into open loop but still makes adjustments, meaning the ECU is still reading all the other sensors and adjusting accordingly. It only uses the narrowband O2 sensors to make very minor adjustments anyway, even when in closed loop. The AFR does indeed change with the O2 sensors unhooked. I get your point though.
Kevin? Rylan? What do you guys say?
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-12 9:30 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | My intake being delivered tomorrow. It's Tuesday's project. Maybe see Kevin Friday. I keep you updated. Thanks for all the input. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | cw1115 - 2014-10-12 10:58 AM
My intake being delivered tomorrow. It's Tuesday's project. Maybe see Kevin Friday. I keep you updated. Thanks for all the input.
This Friday I'm booked solid, and trying to figure out how to be in Daytone at 7pm | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | No problem. I will call you first of course. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | No problem. I will call you first of course. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | So my little brain was in overdrive and I stated thinking that the dealer that made so many mistakes on my bike probably reconnected the front O2 sensor when they replaced the subframe. So my plan was to check that while I was installing the Lloydz variable intake. I had a very had time getting that thin in. Three calls to Lloyd and one to Kevin. I finally figured out why I couldn't get it in. I fulled the panel under the seat and discovered the rear O2 sencor was in fact connected. Have not checked the front yet. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | After speaking with Rylan, this is what I'm going to go with. There was a significant difference between 2500-4000 rpms to justify a new exhaust. From the dyno charts he sent there was 10 ft/lbs of difference at 3k. The DnD's shouldn't be as loud as some but give it some more character. I'm not against sound but I don't want loud for loud's sake and these are what he suggested. He said the Atom Bombs would do the same but are louder. The exhaust is a decent increase for my total cost so may delay the project a little bit. We are probably only going to bump the PC5 500 rpms. I may try to get him to bump it the additional 500 like you suggested but there are only a few times a year or situations it would come into play for me so I can live without it. He said if I wanted to do the HPT cams that we would start getting into the range where clutch work would become necessary (ie: more money). I think I will be real happy with this build and I a amazed at what kind of power gains can be had with just this work.
VM1 Cams
Power Commander 5
Adjustable Intake
Timing Wheel and gasket
Quarter turn Throttle
Top Filter
DnD exhaust | |
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......? So this is a before and after, with my timing wheel set at +3 for both runs. Rylan Voss installed a Loydz top filter and the PC5 and then did his magic. He saw no reason to change my timing wheel setting. I still have a bone stock exhaust on my Vision. Now would you care to answer your own question. Can you get anything out of an intake without changing the exhaust? 
To me the answer is obvious. I don't need a loud exhaust to get performance.
Edited by Oldman47 2014-10-16 9:43 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | That is a nice chart. It's amazing what performance you can get out of a Vision with minimal changes and cost. 7 ft/lb peak difference but at times you can see a +10 gain and most importantly a consistent gain in the driving range. All this for under a grand.
PC5 - 369
timing wheel - 142
Top Filter - 95
Dyno+labor 350?
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Oldman47 - 2014-10-16 9:37 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......? So this is a before and after, with my timing wheel set at +3 for both runs. Rylan Voss installed a Loydz top filter and the PC5 and then did his magic. He saw no reason to change my timing wheel setting. I still have a bone stock exhaust on my Vision. Now would you care to answer your own question. Can you get anything out of an intake without changing the exhaust?
To me the answer is obvious. I don't need a loud exhaust to get performance.
That's a nice chart for a stock cam Vision. 5th gear pulls hard from 60 MPH to 100 MPH--great passing power. VM1 cams added to that combination would make the pull you now feel at 90 to 100 MPH last past 125 MPH. The stock cams are giving up at 100 MPH in 5th. The VM1s with that combination will mirror what you now feel, except they will continue to pull after you reach 100 (4500 RPM). On my bike, they actually pick up even more torque at 4500 RPM and start pulling even harder, instead of dropping off at 4500 RPM like the stock cams do.
I've been saying it for years. The stock exhaust isn't restrictive--just quiet. To use the funnel analogy, the top of the funnel (the intake) is the restricted part on a Vision. The bottom of the funnel is more than wide enough to handle the extra flow. Lloyd has shown that the stock exhaust can handle 135 HP from a built 116. 106s certainly aren't held back by it.
BTW, I'm running the stock exhaust too. Fast and quiet.
Ronnie | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Rowebote - 2014-10-15 3:19 PM
After speaking with Rylan, this is what I'm going to go with. There was a significant difference between 2500-4000 rpms to justify a new exhaust. From the dyno charts he sent there was 10 ft/lbs of difference at 3k. The DnD's shouldn't be as loud as some but give it some more character. I'm not against sound but I don't want loud for loud's sake and these are what he suggested. He said the Atom Bombs would do the same but are louder. The exhaust is a decent increase for my total cost so may delay the project a little bit. We are probably only going to bump the PC5 500 rpms. I may try to get him to bump it the additional 500 like you suggested but there are only a few times a year or situations it would come into play for me so I can live without it. He said if I wanted to do the HPT cams that we would start getting into the range where clutch work would become necessary (ie: more money). I think I will be real happy with this build and I a amazed at what kind of power gains can be had with just this work.
VM1 Cams
Power Commander 5
Adjustable Intake
Timing Wheel and gasket
Quarter turn Throttle
Top Filter
DnD exhaust
Your new chart, after the mods you list, will look very much like the one Oldman47 put up with the exception that the torque (and horsepower) will not begin to drop after 4500 RPM. It will continue on to around a peak at 5700-5800 RPM before beginning to drop. You'll be looking at around 115 to 120 RWHP. Your bike will pull really hard from 60 MPH to 120 MPH in 5th gear. That is not to say it won't pull below that, or above that--it will. It will just pull extra hard between 60 and 120.
You can always change the exhaust at a later date if you want to. You will get close to the same overall results with the stock exhaust and you don't have to let the price of the exhaust delay your project.
The width of the torque band is as important, if not more so, than a peak number. Wide and flat is better than high and narrow, especially on a street bike. If you can achieve both wide and flat with high numbers, you've reached nirvana. (That's what the VM1 cams do).
I doesn't cost any more for Rylan to program your PCV to add 1000 RPM instead of 500 while he is at it. You just need the code from Dynojet ahead of time.
You're going to think you got a new bike after Rylan gets done.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-17 10:55 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | Well the Vision is at Rylan's getting cammed. I decided to go with Atom Bombs since exhaust does seem to add a decent amount of tq on the lower end. I know I'll be giving up a the quiet of stock but I'll be fine with that. Once the final build is done and I have a dyno sheet I will be sure to post them. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States | Rylan just sent me a pic of the dyno run. Can't wait to get it back and get some saddle time with it! +29hp and +14 ft/lb increase over what it was stock is awesome. Aslo that torque curve is purty!
Mods are:
PC5
Vision adjustable intake
Lloydz Top Filter
Adjustable Timing System
VM1-DR cams
1/4 turn throttle
Dyno Tuned
Adam Bomb exhaust
Edited by Rowebote 2015-03-10 1:54 PM
(Vision_Dyno.jpg)
Attachments
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Vision_Dyno.jpg (49KB - 1 downloads)
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Dee Amn!!!! That is a very nice upgrade. You'll be showing those Gold Wings that VV backside all day along. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | V92SC - 2015-03-10 2:09 PM
Dee Amn!!!! That is a very nice upgrade. You'll be showing those Gold Wings that VV backside all day along.
Very nice!!!
What this means in the real world, is that if you are riding with a Goldwing on a two lane road and come up behind a line of traffic going slow uphill behind a loaded truck, you and the Goldwing can pull out and pass everything in a real short distance. At the same time as you're passing the slow traffic, you will either be able to pass the Goldwing , or have to back off to keep from running over it.
From 40 MPH in 4th gear, or 55 MPH in 5th gear, you will be able to run away from the Goldwing in traffic passing maneuvers.
Comparing the before and after charts, the very same Goldwing would have been running away from you after 100 MPH before you added the cams. Now, with the cams, he will never catch you until you decide to slow down.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2015-03-12 10:44 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | I added a Lloydz top air filter and a PCV to my 2013 Vision. I already had a timing wheel on it at +3 degrees. This is the before and after from The Vic Shop. You be the judge.
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/Oldman1947/Bike/Dyno-800_zps7c59e087.jpg[/IMG]
Edited by Oldman47 2015-03-16 2:06 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Oldman47 - 2015-03-16 1:55 PM
I added a Lloydz top air filter and a PCV to my 2013 Vision. I already had a timing wheel on it at +3 degrees. This is the before and after from The Vic Shop. You be the judge.
[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/Oldman1947/Bike/Dyno-800_zps7c59e087.jpg[/IMG]
Very nice for stock cams. Strong passing power from 45 MPH to 80 MPH in 4th gear and 55 MPH to 100 MPH in 5th gear. Power is dropping after those speeds are reached in both gears. A race with a Goldwing will be close. In a pure roll-on test, you will pull the Goldwing in the mid range and he will be coming back on you as the gears are wound out.
VM1 cams added to that would give you at least 115 HP and the Goldwing would never catch you if you didn't want him to.
Ronnie | |
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![[IMG]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/Oldman1947/Bike/Dyno-800_zps7c59e087.jpg[/IMG]](http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Oldman1947/media/Bike/Dyno-800_zps7c59e087.jpg.html){kind=link}