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Cabot Arkansas | Rode all the new Indians yesterday.Great bikes really strong especially until about 4200 rpm then they start to fall off a little.I rode all 3 models and since I own a Vision I was most interested in the Chieftain.I tried 3 different Chieftains and on every one the fairing rattled at higher rpms and highway speeds The windshield did not have near the all around performance of of the Vision?s.The LCD display is poor and hard to see in bright sunlight with polarized sunglasses.They throw a lot of heat upon the rider mainly around your thighs and the seat area it was mid 80's and I could really feel the heat even more than my Vision without the lowers.Now for the power comparison I had read a few comments from other people talking about how fast and strong pulling the Indians are and someone one even said they thought it would beat a cammed Vision,NO WAY not even close....I do believe a stock Victory will have it's hands full against a stock Indian, the Vic MAY pull better above 4500 rpm but the Indian rules down low.The Vision has superior floorboards and over all room in the cockpit.The fit finish and paint is better on the Indian.The sound is good on both bikes but the stock Indian is a little deeper and louder.The radios are about equal other than the 2 extra speakers on the Vision. Weather protection on the Vision is much better .The handling on the Indian is on par with the Vision I was surprised with how well the Chieftain cornered,but I think my 2012 Vision with 15k miles handles a little better and is overall more comfortable to ride especially on a 600+ mile day.I think Polaris hit a homerun with the new Indian and they are definitely going to sell a lot of them.All in all a great crusier motorcycle,but for serious touring the Vision is still king in my book.
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Central Maryland | Good review. Thanks! |
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| Nice write-up. Since you're in AR I'm guessing you went to Gregory for the Indian ride?
I have 2 Visions, and my first comment getting off the Vintage after a demo is that it's not a Vision.
But it's not trying to be. Also, since I have a Vision I have no interest in the Chieftain but love the Vintage look.
I found the Indian 111 to be very torquey but I agree, there's not much top end. That being said, the Indian moves right along.
What surprised me about the Indian is how well it handled, and also how smooth the suspension is - even compared to a Vision.
One demo rider described it like riding on a cloud.
The sound of the stock Indian is beautiful. Styling, fit and finish are excellent.
Word is that they have already surpassed the 1,901 mark a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they make 3 or 4 thousand of them this year.
My Vintage should be here in a couple of weeks. |
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Akron Ohio area | Indians goal is around 6,500 for this model year. |
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New Bohemia, VA | There is no doubt Indian hit the target of their intention when it came to the final product. Given what it is, it is what is, nothing more, and nothing less. Beautiful, nostalic on a modern platform. Give them an A+ for the grade. Low horse, high torque is what they wanted. I'm just wondering what the next model will be for next year. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | varyder - 2013-10-16 11:56 AM
There is no doubt Indian hit the target of their intention when it came to the final product. Given what it is, it is what is, nothing more, and nothing less. Beautiful, nostalic on a modern platform. Give them an A+ for the grade. Low horse, high torque is what they wanted. I'm just wondering what the next model will be for next year.
After riding the Chieftain yesterday, that is a perfect analogy. It is what it is and they did a good job. It is not the high speed touring platform that a Vision is. Or for that matter a CCT but it is a really nice bike that has a modern engine and electrics but looks to be a continuation of the Indian heritage. The quality seems to on par with any motorcycle made. Polaris did a outstanding job with these first Indian models........ |
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Visionary
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Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | LISTEN FOLKS. I love old shit as much as anybody. I got straight 'A's in History and I love NOSTALGIA. I have owned many classic cars - my first car EVER was a Jaguar XK150 when I was very young - and I rebuilt the engine PERSONALLY while I was going to school. BUT
While it is nice to see someone building some sort of 'retro whatever' - there is no real reason for it to exist other than 'nostalgia' - because if you think of it as a 'current machine' than you are f**ked in your social / current world development. HARLEY seemed to have FROZE in the 50's while the rest of the world went on. And it COST them. But they are still trying to catch up. VICTORY is about to fall into the SAME trap with the INDIAN. For cripe's sake, don't any of you Americans realize the WORLD is 10 times your size??? The VISION is the BEST thing America has come up with since I started riding 54 years ago. Best in the WORLD. Why piss around with OLD shit ??? Leave that to INDIA or CHINA. Move ON !!!
SORRY SORRRRY SOOO SOOORRRY - in advance ....
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Sand Rock, AL United States | I love my Vision and wouldn't trade it for anything but Americans are centimental (to include myself). I have a 99 to satisfy my centimental side . I like the new Indian. It's a cool bike. |
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Central Maryland | Who awoke the grumpy old man? |
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Jasper, MO | donetracey - 2013-10-19 1:30 AM
LISTEN FOLKS. I love old shit as much as anybody. I got straight 'A's in History and I love NOSTALGIA. I have owned many classic cars - my first car EVER was a Jaguar XK150 when I was very young - and I rebuilt the engine PERSONALLY while I was going to school. BUT
While it is nice to see someone building some sort of 'retro whatever' - there is no real reason for it to exist other than 'nostalgia' - because if you think of it as a 'current machine' than you are f**ked in your social / current world development. HARLEY seemed to have FROZE in the 50's while the rest of the world went on. And it COST them. But they are still trying to catch up. VICTORY is about to fall into the SAME trap with the INDIAN. For cripe's sake, don't any of you Americans realize the WORLD is 10 times your size??? The VISION is the BEST thing America has come up with since I started riding 54 years ago. Best in the WORLD. Why piss around with OLD shit ??? Leave that to INDIA or CHINA. Move ON !!!
SORRY SORRRRY SOOO SOOORRRY - in advance ....
I don't think you have too much to worry about concerning Polaris' direction with the new Indian. Yes, it pays homage to the nostalgic style. But, unlike Harley that, as you said, "seemed to have FROZE in the 50's while the rest of the world went on", the new Indian uses very modern technology, packaged in a retro style, and will continue to advance.
Look at what the new generation Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers that package the latest technology into retro styled bodies, are doing. Modern performance combined with the styling reminiscent of the 60's and early 70s. They are quite popular, and the performance far exceeds that of the originals.
When British Leyland died and they stopped making the classic British roadsters like the MGB, a decade later companies like Mazda took the concept and came out with a modern rendition called the MX-5 Miata, which is still successful. It combined the classic look, and much of the feel, of the 60's and 70's roadsters with the modern technology of the day.
Ronnie |
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New Bohemia, VA | I've always loved what Victory did with the Vision. It is distinctly Victory styling, yet even Victory has nothing else like it. Sure, it shares a lot of things, but the design is what makes the Vision what it is. I've always considered the design of the body as giving the bike the wind stability that it has, change that, and you'll screw up things. I appreciate what Indian did with the Chief and Chieftain, I had expect a little more modern styling with Indian ques. I've said this before, if Indian had not of flopped in 1950s, even Harley would have been a different bike today. Indian was a leader and very progressive and I believe today's Chief would not have looked like what Polaris produced. I welcome the idea that Indian is back and can't wait to see them on the road. I hope all that have one will ride the wheels off of them. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Way off topic for just a second. After I test rode the Chieftain down in Daytona I hoped over to the Yamaha tent and took a test ride on a 2014 V-Max, DAAAAMMMMNNN.... now thats a engine. 102 cu in V-4 with 174 HP stock. Pulled like a Busa on top but way more bottom end. Sorry just had to tell the story................ |
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Memphis | I think Indian has laid the groundwork for some pretty progressive bikes. The Vision-inspired cast frame with integrated air intake and the first fork mounted fairing with power windshield are pretty bold statements. Easy platform to make a Scout out of. I don't think they will paint themselves into a corner like Harley did and be stuck in the past for decades. Indian will be a much easier sell for modernized progressions. I see 4-valve/OHC heads in the not too distant future in order to revive the racing vibe. They didn't dare come out with that first or everyone and their brother would have thrown the Victory knock-off lable all over it. For those of us that Indian was aiming at, they nailed it and we appreciate the effort. They went from clean sheet to production in 27 months and the first bikes coming off the line are getting rave reviews, even compared to the demo bikes. The fact that they are $15,000 less than a Stellican bike is unbelievable. Harley has been working on Rushmore for four years (not clean sheet/ground up build like the Indians) and they have already had a major recall. That doesn't even count the forums that are blowing up about shutting the "shower head" bikes off and watching coolant pour out. Indian and Victory are both in a great position. I'm not going to change my handle, even on the Indian forums I join.
Edited by SongFan 2013-10-19 1:20 PM
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Good points SongFan.........
I haven't heard about the Harley water buffalos having problems. What's that all about ? |
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Memphis | Recall: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/16/harleydavidson-recall-idUSL1N0I62I120131016 Forum gripes (just one of many): http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-forum-general-harley-talk/280514-water-cooled-bike-problem.html |
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Jasper, MO | XRsteve - 2013-10-19 12:27 PM
Way off topic for just a second. After I test rode the Chieftain down in Daytona I hoped over to the Yamaha tent and took a test ride on a 2014 V-Max, DAAAAMMMMNNN.... now thats a engine. 102 cu in V-4 with 174 HP stock. Pulled like a Busa on top but way more bottom end. Sorry just had to tell the story................
Yeah. If Yamaha/Star decides to put that motor in their Venture touring bike, the game will be turned up a notch.
The current Venture is a top heavy thing though and doesn't handle on par with the Goldwing or the Victory offerings. They need to work on that too. Still, a 174 HP touring bike.......................
The claimed 27 MPG for the 2014 V-Max might be a problem in a touring bike too.
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| SongFan - 2013-10-19 2:13 PM
I'm not going to change my handle, even on the Indian forums I join.
No need to, since Michael Song has a lot to do with the success of the Indians. We have thanked him for what he did with the Vision and I can't wait to kiss his ring when we see him at the NY motorcycle show in December. 
PS, an Indian commercial just came on the TV. I had chills down my spine, in a good way. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | That Harey forum was full of good info. The members were arguing with each other too. Goes on everywhere I guess.............. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Wow Harley just fired another shot in the "new" Indian wars. A 500cc and 750cc entry level bike that is NON-pushrod. I guess trying to attract the new to motorcycle customers. Oh good grief, now the Harley people and the Indian folks will have something new to talk & complain about.............. |
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New Bohemia, VA | Harley has gone the Japanese road. |
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Sand Rock, AL United States | yep , liquid cooled. Interesting though. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | I read in the press announcement that Harley is targeting three primary groups with these bikes. The tennis shoe crowd youth market, You know you've seen them at events, 20 somethings on rat bikes and scooters and some covered in tatoos. Also first time riders that want to have "A Harley". That's the domestic market.
The more important market is India. India is an emerging economic powerhouse and has a population of 1.2 billion, that's four times the population of the USA. Motorcycles and scooters are very popular in India, thus Harley is trying to sell what will be premium size and cost motorcycles to an emerging customer base. Why 500cc and 750cc bikes ? Because India has a huge tariff on bikes imported over 800cc. The bikes for India will be made in India. The bikes for the US market will be built in Kansas city. I have to admit, it's seems like a fine business plan......... |
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Sand Rock, AL United States | I thought we all decided it wouldn't be profitable to build an entry level bike. Looks like someone thinks differently and are positioning themselves to get the first piece of that pie.  |
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New Bohemia, VA | who decided? I wasn't in on that meeting. On a warm summer day, the roads are swarming with 650-1100cc japanese bikes. Now why would you go to your Kaw-Suk-Hon-Yam dealer when dad, mom, son, and daughter can all go to the Harley store for bikes, one for all, and appearel. See, compromise is good. Win-win... Maybe HD will come out with a riding tennis shoe... |
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Sand Rock, AL United States | well, I didn't decide it but that is what others said. |
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Tourer
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| Yep, Victory said they were developing a similar bike back in 2008 during a 10 anniversary presentation. And nothing 5 years later |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I think Victory would have a hot seller if they did a miniture V92 or TC |
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Visionary
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Here's what I've read so far : Let's start with the engine, a liquid-cooled 60-degree V-twin whose chain-driven single overhead camshafts operate four valves per cylinder via roller rockers with screw adjusters. ( Very similar to our Victory 106's ) Called the Revolution X, this all-new powerplant, with a vertically split crankcase and plain bearings, is a modern design that traces its lineage back to the V-Rod of 2001. Jeff Coughlin, Harley's chief powertrain engineer, says a 60-degree design was chosen to help reduce the height of the wet-sump engine, which helps keep seat height and center of gravity low, important considerations given that the Street is seen as a first bike for many potential customers.Separate aluminum cylinders are fitted with pressed-in iron liners, and the only difference between the 500 and 750 versions, which share a 66.0mm stroke, is the bore. The 500?s is 69.0mm, which makes for an actual displacement of 494cc. The 750's bore, at 85.0mm, makes for a displacement of 749cc. Redline for both engines is 8,000 rpm, and peak power for the 750, though not officially announced, was said by one Harley rep to be 54 hp at 7,500 rpm, with 44 pound-feet of peak torque arriving at an unspecified rpm. A single balance shaft keeps the V-twin from shaking too much, and a six-speed transmission works with Harley's belt drive.
Why is this important ? If Harley can build this engine it can create a big brother in the 95-100 cu inch range, Power a next generation RoadGlide with a stock " Big twin" that has 130 HP and 120 lbs Tq. Good grief that would blow all current twin cylinder touring engines out of the water..........
Edited by XRsteve 2013-11-05 12:05 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | Add some comfort in the seat and you'll have a hoooooooootttttttt seller. |
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Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | XRsteve - 2013-11-05 10:00 AM .Separate aluminum cylinders are fitted with pressed-in iron liners, and the only difference between the 500 and 750 versions, which share a 66.0mm stroke, is the bore. The 500?s is 69.0mm, which makes for an actual displacement of 494cc. The 750's bore, at 85.0mm, makes for a displacement of 749cc. Redline for both engines is 8,000 rpm, and peak power for the 750, though not officially announced, was said by one Harley rep to be 54 hp at 7,500 rpm, with 44 pound-feet of peak torque arriving at an unspecified rpm.......... Sounds like they almost reach the level of my 1980's 750cc 60+ HP, 520lb Yamaha Viragos (which would EASILY whoop any HD in those years) - Ahhh - progress !!! |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | donetracey - 2013-11-05 12:47 PM
XRsteve - 2013-11-05 10:00 AM .Separate aluminum cylinders are fitted with pressed-in iron liners, and the only difference between the 500 and 750 versions, which share a 66.0mm stroke, is the bore. The 500?s is 69.0mm, which makes for an actual displacement of 494cc. The 750's bore, at 85.0mm, makes for a displacement of 749cc. Redline for both engines is 8,000 rpm, and peak power for the 750, though not officially announced, was said by one Harley rep to be 54 hp at 7,500 rpm, with 44 pound-feet of peak torque arriving at an unspecified rpm.......... Sounds like they almost reach the level of my 1980's 750cc 60+ HP, 520lb?Yamaha Viragos (which would EASILY whoop any HD in those years) - Ahhh - progress !!! ?
First thing I thought was the current line of Kawasaki Vulcans. But that's not the point. It's a new style Harley.. Yeah the old timers won't like it. That's not the target market and Harley like all large corporations don't care about 50+ year old customers. They are preparing for the future. One big difference between the Viragos, Vulcans and Suzuki C50's: Harley will sell more in three years in the Indian market than all the Japanese Harley wantabe twins ever made...............
Edited by XRsteve 2013-11-05 4:10 PM
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Indian TS 111 dyno sheet vs Harley 110 waterhead:
Indian : 106 ft lbs @ 2800 rpm and 77.7 HP @5200 rpm.
Harley : 98 ft lbs @ 3700 and 84.8 HP @ 5400 rpm.
The engines are very close in size and bore & stroke. The difference in these stock engine outputs is probably due to cam duration and timing. The Indian makes more bottom end and the Harley pulls a little harder on top. Oh boy The Harley- Indian wars are about to begin again................
Edited by XRsteve 2013-11-15 9:43 PM
(Dyno graph stock Indian TS111.jpg)
(dyno graph 2014 110 water head stock (4).bmp)
Attachments
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 Dyno graph stock Indian TS111.jpg (151KB - 1 downloads)
dyno graph 2014 110 water head stock (4).bmp (191KB - 2 downloads)
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Heads are very comparable in airflow capabilities. If you notice their cylinder filling is amost equal at 3750rpm. The Indian is making 100 ft lbs and the Harley 98 ft lbs. About as close as you can get in the upper mid range....... Now We'll have to wait and see what head porters can do with the TS, we know what they can do with the TC.................Let the games begin..........
Edited by XRsteve 2013-11-16 10:20 AM
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Jasper, MO | XRsteve - 2013-11-16 10:20 AM
Heads are very comparable in airflow capabilities. If you notice their cylinder filling is amost equal at 3750rpm. The Indian is making 100 ft lbs and the Harley 98 ft lbs. About as close as you can get in the upper mid range....... Now We'll have to wait and see what head porters can do with the TS, we know what they can do with the TC.................Let the games begin..........
True.
However, a really nice fellow who used to be a well respected Harley tuner before he made the switch to Victory about 14 or 15 years ago will probably have some ideas on better fuel management and flow management (cams) for the Indian TS111. I believe he has already purchased his own Indian and is playing with it in Pine Bush now.
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yes, will be very interestin to see what Lloyd can do with a TS111. It will not be as easy as hopping up a Victory though, The heads on a Victory are light years ahead of either a Harley or Indian. I believe to uncork all the potential the complete intake tract including manifold, ports and valve pockets will have to be ported. I'm sure if Lloyd isn't a porting expert he'll find someone who is. I think this is very cool. Like I've said before " Let the games begin".................By the way I use Lloyds products on both my Visions, Great stuff...........
Edited by XRsteve 2013-11-17 5:55 AM
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New Bohemia, VA | I'd like to see Lloyd get an Indian on the race track in the upper class races, as well as Victory. I'm sure Indian will produce a motor more apt to that application though, that will be a force to reckon with. I think the Victory motor is an engine capability of doing that, but for what ever reason, it's not made it on the cover of the Rolling Stones. My mind keeps swinging around to getting an Indian, I can pull the trigger today, but I'm not convinced that is my next bike. Even so, if I was to saddle up a Vintage, it would remain stock as my Vision. I don't think the dependability is there once the shell is cracked and doohickeys are installed. It's like fast times at Ridgemont, it's fun while it lasts... |
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Central Illinois | varyder - 2013-11-05 11:08 AM who decided? I wasn't in on that meeting. On a warm summer day, the roads are swarming with 650-1100cc japanese bikes. Now why would you go to your Kaw-Suk-Hon-Yam dealer when dad, mom, son, and daughter can all go to the Harley store for bikes, one for all, and appearel. See, compromise is good. Win-win... Maybe HD will come out with a riding tennis shoe... A warm summer day? That is also the only time I see many larger bikes like Goldwings, Ultra Classics, Road Glides, Ventures, Cross Countries and Visions. The sheer number of fair weather only riders astounds me.
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Comparison of Chieftain and Streetglide in Cycle World magazine ( January issue )....... |
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New Bohemia, VA | Oldman47 - 2013-11-17 8:31 AM varyder - 2013-11-05 11:08 AM who decided? I wasn't in on that meeting. On a warm summer day, the roads are swarming with 650-1100cc Japanese bikes. Now why would you go to your Kaw-Suk-Hon-Yam dealer when dad, mom, son, and daughter can all go to the Harley store for bikes, one for all, and apparel. See, compromise is good. Win-win... Maybe HD will come out with a riding tennis shoe... A warm summer day? That is also the only time I see many larger bikes like Goldwings, Ultra Classics, Road Glides, Ventures, Cross Countries and Visions. The sheer number of fair weather only riders astounds me. I put anyone who owns a motorcycle into four basic categories, I put anyone who rides into 3 categories. Nothing bad, you just got to know who you're talking with.
Edited by varyder 2013-12-01 4:32 PM
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