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Puddle Jumper
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| Holy crap boys and girls! I haven't been on the forum for a while but damned near crashed my 2011 Vision today so decided to see if anyone else has experianced what happened to me today. So I was at a major intersection waiting to turn onto a highway. There was some oncoming traffic but I had time to excecute my turn. So on with the throttle and out with the clutch. Bike didn't want to turn so I slowed down, now exposed in the intersection with a freekin 18 wheeler bearing down on me. Rode the clutch, gave more throttle and twisted hard on the handle bars, barely making the corner without ending up in the opposite ditch. I idled down the shoulder and stopped in the first approach I came to. Had a look and discovered the back portion of my front fender was wedged into the seem of my lower cowling, preventing me from steering the bike. I removed the entire fender assembly and discovered that the plastic back portion of the fender had failed where it bolts onto the forks. I removed the plastic rear part and bolted the front part back on to get home. I am in total shock over the amount of stuff related to this issue on the forum. I am even more shocked that Victory has told people that this is normal wear and tare and that they are doing nothing about it. I bought my bike new. It has never been off the pavement.
I haven't taken a run at Victory myself yet, but I sure as hell will be.
I read all of the comments on the forum about this and the following is my take on this situation:
The fact that there is clearly a design flaw that could be easily rectified does not fuss me that much. I still think the Vision is a great bike and would like to keep it.
However that's up to Victory. I will not own a product from a company that doesn't give 2 shits about my saftey, only because admitting a flaw would cost them some money! I've seen some great suggestions from riders to permanently fix this problem. Don't tell me that after putting 2 short seasons on a new bike, I should be inspecting it to see if there are hidden cracks in the back fender that may prevent me from steering the bike. I also shouldn't have to hear about such a serious life threatening problem from fellow riders. Victory should be communicating this possible failure to anyone that purchased a bike from them.
So I will start my communication with the dealer and go from there before I get any louder on this subject. Victory will get a chance to do the right thing. But know this, if they don't step up to the plate to protect the people that have put so much trust in them, I will dump this bike in a flash. I could easily modify a front fender that works and is safe, but I won't. I didn't spend 25k on what was said to be a highly engineered piece of technology to start inventing my own repairs.
I'm goin to the Victory shop tomorrow.
More to come.
Mark |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | Glad you made out OK there Mark. I am keeping any eye on my 2011 front fender (rear portion) as well; and will reinforce it with JB Weld and steel templates when I change out the front tire later this fall.
Be interesting to see if you get a better Victory corporate response; than what others have attained thus far. How Victory corporate claims that this is a "wear and tear" item is completely beyond me.
Why some of them crack and others don't... is still a mystery. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Glad you are OK. This issue is getting ridicules ( on Victory's part ) |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
| I went to the Dealership today and explained my front fender adventure to the service manager. He tells me he's never heard of it before. I said what? Opened the forum in front of him and showed him the comments. He said he'd talk to the higher ups in Victory but doesn't think they'll do anything about it because there aren't anough cases of failure versus total units sold. I reminded him that it'll only take one death or serious injury to bring this into the spotlight.
In the mean time I have some thoughts on what may cause the failure. I notice that at high speeds the Vision has a harmonic vibration that I can feel through the floorboards. My assumption is that if enough of that occures, it'll start hairline cracks on the week structural points of that fender. I've been on a few trips with the boys where the roads are flat forever with no risk of animals on the road, endangering other motorists or meeting cops. Some of these guys are on sport bikes and ride long distances at 100MPH plus.
Reinforcing the fender is an idea. However I think I'm gonna build some washers out of rubber or a softer neoprene and put them between the fender and where they bolt onto the forks, as well as on the bolt head side. This should accomplish dampening any vibration as well as prevent damage when tightening the bolts.
Mark |
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Cruiser
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Hudson, Ohio | Cochrane - 2013-09-17 8:15 PM
I went to the Dealership today and explained my front fender adventure to the service manager. He tells me he's never heard of it before. I said what? Opened the forum in front of him and showed him the comments. He said he'd talk to the higher ups in Victory but doesn't think they'll do anything about it because there aren't anough cases of failure versus total units sold. I reminded him that it'll only take one death or serious injury to bring this into the spotlight.
In the mean time I have some thoughts on what may cause the failure. I notice that at high speeds the Vision has a harmonic vibration that I can feel through the floorboards. My assumption is that if enough of that occures, it'll start hairline cracks on the week structural points of that fender. I've been on a few trips with the boys where the roads are flat forever with no risk of animals on the road, endangering other motorists or meeting cops. Some of these guys are on sport bikes and ride long distances at 100MPH plus.
Reinforcing the fender is an idea. However I think I'm gonna build some washers out of rubber or a softer neoprene and put them between the fender and where they bolt onto the forks, as well as on the bolt head side. This should accomplish dampening any vibration as well as prevent damage when tightening the bolts.
Mark
Wow - you have not been on the forums in a while....this thing has blown up all summer. Go to the VOG, VMC, VictoryForums, Facebook and you will see what I mean. You need to report this on the NHTSA site and also to Victory via their Facebook page. Send them a message and post your experience on their FB Page. What happened to you also happened to me earlier this summer and it scared the crap out of me. I have heard about this issue before but decided it was time to start spreading the word so others are aware and Victory does something about it. Their official response is this is caused by normal wear and tear and they are not responsible nor do their engineers believe this is a safety concern. Are you freaking kidding me? Since when is a fender breaking considered normal wear and tear? PLEASE do elevate this issue and post your story to Victory.
Edited by Spiderman 2013-09-17 8:43 PM
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | Cochrane - 2013-09-17 8:15 PM I went to the Dealership today and explained my front fender adventure to the service manager. He tells me he's never heard of it before. I said what? Opened the forum in front of him and showed him the comments. He said he'd talk to the higher ups in Victory but doesn't think they'll do anything about it because there aren't anough cases of failure versus total units sold. I reminded him that it'll only take one death or serious injury to bring this into the spotlight. In the mean time I have some thoughts on what may cause the failure. I notice that at high speeds the Vision has a harmonic vibration that I can feel through the floorboards. My assumption is that if enough of that occures, it'll start hairline cracks on the week structural points of that fender. I've been on a few trips with the boys where the roads are flat forever with no risk of animals on the road, endangering other motorists or meeting cops. Some of these guys are on sport bikes and ride long distances at 100MPH plus. Reinforcing the fender is an idea. However I think I'm gonna build some washers out of rubber or a softer neoprene and put them between the fender and where they bolt onto the forks, as well as on the bolt head side. This should accomplish dampening any vibration as well as prevent damage when tightening the bolts. Mark Poppycock. Not to shoot holes in your philharmonic theory, but that is just plain nonsense. They, Victory did a poor design on a small part of an otherwise phenomenal machine. Bad material, bad vendor weak mount points, and the potential of killing one of it's loyal customers, for what? In the business scheme of things, Victory should have owned this on the first one, but something else seems to be going on. Never have understood this, but I will not make an excuse for a poor, cheap product that will cause death or injury. |
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| If it is a "wear and tear" item, shouldn't it be happening to ALL with in a certain window of time???? willtill - 2013-09-16 4:33 AM
Glad you made out OK there Mark. I am keeping any eye on my 2011 front fender (rear portion) as well; and will reinforce it with JB Weld and steel templates when I change out the front tire later this fall.
Be interesting to see if you get a better Victory corporate response; than what others have attained thus far. How Victory corporate claims that this is a "wear and tear" item is completely beyond me.
Why some of them crack and others don't... is still a mystery. |
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| Cochrane - 2013-09-15 11:13 PM
Holy crap boys and girls! I haven't been on the forum for a while but damned near crashed my 2011 Vision today so decided to see if anyone else has experianced what happened to me today. So I was at a major intersection waiting to turn onto a highway. There was some oncoming traffic but I had time to excecute my turn. So on with the throttle and out with the clutch. Bike didn't want to turn so I slowed down, now exposed in the intersection with a freekin 18 wheeler bearing down on me. Rode the clutch, gave more throttle and twisted hard on the handle bars, barely making the corner without ending up in the opposite ditch. I idled down the shoulder and stopped in the first approach I came to. Had a look and discovered the back portion of my front fender was wedged into the seem of my lower cowling, preventing me from steering the bike. I removed the entire fender assembly and discovered that the plastic back portion of the fender had failed where it bolts onto the forks. I removed the plastic rear part and bolted the front part back on to get home. I am in total shock over the amount of stuff related to this issue on the forum. I am even more shocked that Victory has told people that this is normal wear and tare and that they are doing nothing about it. I bought my bike new. It has never been off the pavement.
I haven't taken a run at Victory myself yet, but I sure as hell will be.
I read all of the comments on the forum about this and the following is my take on this situation:
The fact that there is clearly a design flaw that could be easily rectified does not fuss me that much. I still think the Vision is a great bike and would like to keep it.
However that's up to Victory. I will not own a product from a company that doesn't give 2 shits about my saftey, only because admitting a flaw would cost them some money! I've seen some great suggestions from riders to permanently fix this problem. Don't tell me that after putting 2 short seasons on a new bike, I should be inspecting it to see if there are hidden cracks in the back fender that may prevent me from steering the bike. I also shouldn't have to hear about such a serious life threatening problem from fellow riders. Victory should be communicating this possible failure to anyone that purchased a bike from them.
So I will start my communication with the dealer and go from there before I get any louder on this subject. Victory will get a chance to do the right thing. But know this, if they don't step up to the plate to protect the people that have put so much trust in them, I will dump this bike in a flash. I could easily modify a front fender that works and is safe, but I won't. I didn't spend 25k on what was said to be a highly engineered piece of technology to start inventing my own repairs.
I'm goin to the Victory shop tomorrow.
More to come.
Mark
Make sure you report what happened to the NTSB. This was the only way that Honda stepped up and repaired their frame cracking issue back in 2004. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
| Yep I agree it's BS. The service guy I talked to today was clearly giving me a canned speach that I'm sure Victory has instructed their shops to do for now. I could have poured it on heavily to this young guy, but it was clear he was powerless to do anything for me right now. So I decided to walk away and jab away at Victory myself as others are by signing the petition and posting my incident and concerns publicly and to Victory. I'm not giving up I just want to try to put the energy in the direction that gets us somewhere.
In the mean time, I still love the bike and want to do what ever it takes to pound on a few more miles this year safely. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 13
| If the Vic engineer who stated it's not a safety issue could experience what I did and have to put huge torgue into the bars to get around a corner on a busy intersection, hearing a bunch of snapping and cracking going on while ejecting turds from his anal sphincter he'd change his mind in one hell of a hurry! |
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Cruiser
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Bullhead City, AZ | Would the Polaris brass fly an airplane designed by the guy that did the fender |
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Cruiser
Posts: 128
| loren2 - 2013-09-18 1:55 AM
Would the Polaris brass fly an airplane designed by the guy that did the fender
Now thats funny right there! |
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Tourer
Posts: 500
| Naw!! It is just a wear and tear issue!!! Unless the one of the engines fall off and kill someone..... |
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Hudson, Ohio | Cochrane - 2013-09-17 11:33 PM
If the Vic engineer who stated it's not a safety issue could experience what I did and have to put huge torgue into the bars to get around a corner on a busy intersection, hearing a bunch of snapping and cracking going on while ejecting turds from his anal sphincter he'd change his mind in one hell of a hurry!
Could not have said it better myself Cochrane! |
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Cruiser
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| All
One more broken lower front fender.
I have been checking with every ride. It got cold so I decided to look it over so I took it off.
There is a crack on the left side from the bolt hole strait down to the edge.
The right side has a crack started at the bolt hole, it has not completely made it to the edge yet.
I would like to thank the members here for making this problem well known.
Without the information you have published I would not have known to take it off for a full inspection.
Vision owners that have not removed your fender for inspection you might want to invest the time.
I could not see the cracks with it mounted on the motorcycle.
Again many thanks to the dedicated riders of this forum.
Rick |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| On my bike is was a bolt that never was tightened. The fender is not at fault its the person who didn't tighten the bolt.
Bet the majority of fenders that broke were left hand cracked holes |
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Cruiser
Posts: 50
| johnnyvision - 2013-12-03 6:47 PM
On my bike is was a bolt that never was tightened. The fender is not at fault its the person who didn't tighten the bolt.
Bet the majority of fenders that broke were left hand cracked holes
JV
I had been checking the bolts about once a month, never found any loose.
Did not know about the left hole being the predominant breaking point.
The plastic fender will not go back on, will probably use a Cross fender that a friend has. The price is right and won't have to worry about what or when something will happen.
Rick |
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Iron Butt
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Peru, IN | johnnyvision - 2013-12-03 7:47 PM On my bike is was a bolt that never was tightened. The fender is not at fault its the person who didn't tighten the bolt. Bet the majority of fenders that broke were left hand cracked holes Nope. Mine was the right side and both bolts were tight.
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Iron Butt
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Perry Hall, MD | johnnyvision - 2013-12-03 7:47 PM
On my bike is was a bolt that never was tightened. The fender is not at fault its the person who didn't tighten the bolt.
Bet the majority of fenders that broke were left hand cracked holes
All bolts were tight when I removed it for inspection and found both sides were cracked. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Okay I've found out why the front rear part of the fender is breaking.......now lets see if I can post pictures.
A little history, my fender was found to be broken at or around 20,000 miles, I ordered a new one and replaced it ....at 27,000 miles I decided to changed my fork oil and seals........found another crack in the same side that had broke before(Left side).....anyway I figured I've got to find out why it keeps breaking! Just in case the pictures won't post here's the deal, the Shoulder of the bolt that holds the fender in place is not long enough to make contact with the fork and it is meshing the plastic fender and breaking it. As it turns out I can't post pictures again.......I can't seem to resize them. sorry!
Edited by diamonbird 2013-12-18 5:09 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| diamonbird
try this. Go to your photo. Put pointer on photo right click. Then click edit and click on that. At the top it should say resize. Now clear the 100 out and put in 30.
Now go to right hand corner and click red X it will ask you if you want to save. Click on save. Now it might be the size to post |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Thanks JV but mines doesn't have those options on the right click but I did find a re-sizer online and I'm having trouble getting it to work.........I give!
Edited by diamonbird 2013-12-18 6:00 PM
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Cruiser
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Mechanicsville, VA United States | As you can see from above I got it, now as you can see the shoulder of the bolt does not come all the way through the hole so it can land on the mounting spot on the fork so if you tighten the bolt too tight it's going to mash the plastic and break it. I made sure when I tightened the bolt when reinstalling the new fender I was not over tightening it but it still broke. The problem is the lack of length of the shoulder on the bolt. Now if someone can kind a longer bolt they could sell the crap out of them to us! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | maybe more
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | You know, that actually makes sense. I think the thing that gets me, if Victory knows this, why didn't tell us and give us a remedy for it? |
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Cruiser
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Mechanicsville, VA United States | They sell more fenders that way! |
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Cruiser
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Parkersburg WV | would it help to make the hole a little bit bigger ?
Bob |
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Visionary
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Not bigger, thinner. |
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Tourer
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Albuquerque, NM | diamonbird - 2013-12-18 5:56 PM
As you can see from above I got it, now as you can see the shoulder of the bolt does not come all the way through the hole so it can land on the mounting spot on the fork so if you tighten the bolt too tight it's going to mash the plastic and break it. I made sure when I tightened the bolt when reinstalling the new fender I was not over tightening it but it still broke. The problem is the lack of length of the shoulder on the bolt. Now if someone can kind a longer bolt they could sell the crap out of them to us!
Why did they decrease the thickness of the fender around the bolt? They should have left it the same thickness of the rest of the fender and increased the length of the shoulder on the bolt as stated by diamonbird! |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| ADD a bigger round washer to bolt. It will fill up the gap on the shoulder on the bolt so the bolt will tighten up all the way |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | That's the problem JV, the plastic will not take being meshed....what we need is M6 X1.0 bolts and 8mm outside x 6mm inside x 4mm lenght spacer collars. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | nailer - 2013-12-19 2:53 PM
diamonbird - 2013-12-18 5:56 PM
As you can see from above I got it, now as you can see the shoulder of the bolt does not come all the way through the hole so it can land on the mounting spot on the fork so if you tighten the bolt too tight it's going to mash the plastic and break it. I made sure when I tightened the bolt when reinstalling the new fender I was not over tightening it but it still broke. The problem is the lack of length of the shoulder on the bolt. Now if someone can kind a longer bolt they could sell the crap out of them to us!
Why did they decrease the thickness of the fender around the bolt? They should have left it the same thickness of the rest of the fender and increased the length of the shoulder on the bolt as stated by diamonbird!
Some idiot engineer at Victory wasn't up to his game that day; the day he designed it. |
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Cruiser
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Mechanicsville, VA United States | I've find the spacer collars and I know which bolts to use, now it's a waiting period for them to get here......once I have the parts here and install them I will post it for you all.....I've ordered 12 collars so I may be able to help some of you out...we'll see! |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| diamonbird - 2013-12-19 6:21 PM That's the problem JV, the plastic will not take being meshed....what we need is M6 X1.0 bolts and 8mm outside x 6mm inside x 4mm length spacer collars. Maybe the bolt is to long and stops before it should. When I put washer on my bolt and tightened it has never come loose. Never thought the bolt was to long before |
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Cruiser
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Mechanicsville, VA United States | Johnny I think you're missing the point here, the bolt lenght has nothing to do with the problem, the lenght is fine, it's the lenght of the shoulder on the bolt, it's not long enough to go through the plastic fender hole to make contact with fork mount. The head of the bolt should not be applying meshing pressure to the plastic fender. The holes in the fender are to close to the outer edge of the plastic to support the meshing force of the bolt and the plastic will break after some time. I think what you're doing with your washer does help spread the meshing force but sooner or later the plastic will give up and break there's just not enough plastic on the outer edge and hitting bumps in the road adds to the stress on the small amount of plastic on the outer edge of the hole in the plastic. Both of my fenders(2)broke on the outer edge of the holes. I've ordered some spacer collars to fit a M6X1.0 bolts that I already had, the spacer lenghts I ordered are 4mm in lenght, hopely this is long enough to keep from meshing the plastic but not to long and making the fender to loose on their mounts to the forks, I guess I'll see shortly...still waiting on delivery.
Edited by diamonbird 2013-12-21 4:41 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| I did some measuring. The bolts they are using to support the fender are an unusual size. The diameter of the shoulder is 7.6 mm and the length of the shoulder is 2.75 mm. The thickness of the plastic on the current rear portion of the front fender at the hole is 3.40 mm on the left side and 3.18 mm on the right side. The hole diameter is approximately 7.75 mm. This is the third fender on my '13 bike. On the last one the left side cracked. I also lost a fender on my '11.
The diameter of the shoulder seems to work fine with the size of the hole so I think that's OK.
It seems to me that a certain amount of compression of the plastic fender is designed in and as a matter of fact the front portion of the front fender, which looks to be made of the same material, has a thickness at each hole of 3.24 and 2.95 mm on the left side and 3.20 and 2.93 mm on the right side.
Doing the arithmetic the plastic is being compressed .25 - .50 mm on the front portion of the front fender assuming that the bolts are torqued sufficiently so that the shoulder bottoms on the fork lower. I haven't heard of any cracking problem with the front portion.
The rear portion of the front fender calculates out to a compression of .43 mm on the right side and .65 mm on the left side. The left side has definitely more compression then any of the other 5 holes and seems to be the one most prone to cracking but certainly not the only side that cracks.
Personally I think there is something else going on here besides the amount of plastic compression that is causing these things to fail. I don't know enough about plastics and this particular blend of plastic to know what the correct range of compression should be but having said that it would seems to me that if the problem was simply caused by the amount of compression then the front portion should be cracking as well and it isn't.
The one common thing I have seen on my 4 failed fenders is that the crack begins at the hole and spreads downward until the entire front portion of the plastic detaches. If you think about the load the fender is under you'll conclude that most all of the pressure on the fender exerted by the wind at speed is attempting to push the bottom portion of the fender rearward toward the engine as it pivots on the top connection. Its almost like a wind scoop. As a matter of fact when the fender does break off it pivots rearward lodging itself in the fairing mouth right in front of the engine.
The conclusion I keep coming back to is that the two lower mounting holes are insufficient to support the fender against wind pressure at high speeds for extended periods along with whatever other stresses are present like vibration, bumps, etc. The question has to come up as to why do some fenders on some bikes fail and others do not. Could it be an environmental variable? By environmental I'm referring not to the weather even though that might have an effect based on how the plastic reacts to temperature over time, but how the bike is used, ie: extended high speed operation like we have here in SoCal or very bumpy or pot holed roads. Those kinds of things.
If the shortcoming is in fact the lower mounts what can we do about it since so far Victory isn't letting on that they're doing anything? One thing I've been thinking about since the last failure has been to make a couple of aluminum plates that would cover the bottom mounts from the inside of the fender and extend to the surrounding plastic for a certain distance. I envision drilling the plate so that a modified screw with a longer shoulder would go through the plate and the fender as a sandwich before screwing into the existing lower fork leg hole. I would then add two smaller mounting screws that would go through the fender and into the plate a distance away from the main screw. In this way the load could be spread out so that the original plastic hole isn't bearing all of it. There are some obstacles to making a plate like this due to the fact that the plastic mount's position is offset and at a different angle than the rest of the fender. Difficult but not impossible.
Anyway, just some thoughts. What do you think?
Marc |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | I think the whole thing stinks! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Chris, that's an understatement but what to do? A guy can either go out and buy an aftermarket fender and get it painted hoping that it'll match and not chip or wait for the current one to fail assuming Vic will replace it and that the failure doesn't end up causing something worse or otherwise try and fix it. I don't know. So far I've just been replacing them on Vic's nickel but I don't know how long that's gonna last besides which what do I do if it fails in the middle of nowhere on a long trip? So, I've been thinking about what is causing it and if I can stop it. Maybe I'm spinning my wheels but I really like this bike and I ride it a lot like you and I don't like giving up.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Has anybody heard what happened with Witchcrafter's one piece fender? Its not on his website.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | hey Marc
Jon gave an update last week. bottom line he has finally identified a vendor that can meet the quality and price points he was poking for. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| diamonbird - 2013-12-18 3:01 PM
Okay I've found out why the front rear part of the fender is breaking.......now lets see if I can post pictures.
A little history, my fender was found to be broken at or around 20,000 miles, I ordered a new one and replaced it ....at 27,000 miles I decided to changed my fork oil and seals........found another crack in the same side that had broke before(Left side).....anyway I figured I've got to find out why it keeps breaking! Just in case the pictures won't post here's the deal, the Shoulder of the bolt that holds the fender in place is not long enough to make contact with the fork and it is meshing the plastic fender and breaking it. As it turns out I can't post pictures again.......I can't seem to resize them. sorry!
I've done some more investigation while visiting my dealer yesterday. There seems to be two different cracks happening. One of them goes from the bolt hole vertically straight down to the edge of the fender. The other crack goes between the hole and the nearest edge horizontally. Sometime it starts in the hole and sometimes it starts on the fender edge. The horizontal crack is clearly caused from the bolt clamping on the brittle plastic excessively so I completely agree with you. The compression is .017" on the right side and .026" on the left side. The problem is that the fender hole and the shoulder diameter and length are non-standard as well as the diameter of the head of the screw which is important. The diameter of the shoulder is 7.6 mm and the length of the shoulder is 2.75 mm. Some clamping on the plastic is necessary to keep it from chafing. I'm guessing that .010" should be enough. I made two inserts on my CNC machine out of very hard 7075 aluminum that are tailored to the thickness of my fender. The insert has a built in shoulder and is drilled for a 6x1x20 mm button head screw. The clamping end that presses against the plastic is the same diameter as the head on the stock screw which is 15 mm. I made the left one with a shoulder length of .125" and the right one with .115" so that they're .010" shorter than the plastic they go through. I've got them installed now so we'll see what happens.
Marc |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Marc, I think you've got it........now make enough them for everyone and sell them at a decent price....you won't get rich but everybody well love you!
If I'd had the equipment that you have at hand I would have my own right now, I'm still waiting on the collar spacers for my fix. They should be here next week....I ordered 12 collars hoping I cause help a few people out.
BTW, your assessment of the cracking is exactly where my 2 fenders broke at!
Edited by diamonbird 2013-12-27 8:39 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| diamonbird - 2013-12-19 4:21 PM
That's the problem JV, the plastic will not take being meshed....what we need is M6 X1.0 bolts and 8mm outside x 6mm inside x 4mm lenght spacer collars.
I was wondering what you're planning to do with these parts? To use the 8 mm OD you'll have to drill the hole but there isn't much material there. Are you planning on shortening the spacers? Just curious if you found a way to do it using standard sized parts.
Marc |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Marc, well I thought the size was close to being correct and if not try and resize them(buy new ones of another size), I had a guy at work measure the OEM bolt and he gave me the numbers as I was not going to mash the plastic at all with my fix....I am not a machinist as you sound to be. The really cool part of me calling out the problem/fix to begin with is you came along and sounds like you actually have the correct sizes and or the true fix for this problem/issue, I bow to you!
To all that are watching this thread do not use the sizes I have indicated in my post as my numbers are incorrect for this fix!
Marc thanks for getting involved in this matter you may have saved a life as MaVic doesn't acknowledge there's a problem "it's just a wear item" and not their problem!
Now Marc do you have the time to make a bunch of these bolts to sell to the masses? Cause if you do I would like to buy a set from you?! |
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | nailer - 2013-12-19 1:53 PM diamonbird - 2013-12-18 5:56 PM As you can see from above I got it, now as you can see the shoulder of the bolt does not come all the way through the hole so it can land on the mounting spot on the fork so if you tighten the bolt too tight it's going to mash the plastic and break it. I made sure when I tightened the bolt when reinstalling the new fender I was not over tightening it but it still broke. The problem is the lack of length of the shoulder on the bolt. Now if someone can kind a longer bolt they could sell the crap out of them to us! Why did they decrease the thickness of the fender around the bolt? They should have left it the same thickness of the rest of the fender and increased the length of the shoulder on the bolt as stated by diamonbird! They really did not set out to make it thinner there, what they did was set a precise depth, unlike the rough thickness that was just fine for the fender itself. That gives them the consistent precision they need to get the shoulder length right. If they failed to follow through with a consistent shoulder vs thickness, that does not mean that the concept was flawed, it just was not executed well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| diamonbird - 2013-12-28 2:12 AM Marc do you have the time to make a bunch of these bolts to sell to the masses? Cause if you do I would like to buy a set from you?!
There are a few issues in making these spacers as I see it.
1. My fender has a variance in the thickness of the plastic between the right and left sides. If our goal is to have a set amount of clamping thickness then I would need to know the thickness of the fender I'm making them for which requires a good micrometer or caliper. As an alternative I could make the length of the shoulder on the long side and the installer could file or sand down the shoulder till it fit but he would have to be careful to keep the end flat and perpendicular to the bolt hole.
2. I made mine to have .010" clamping but I have no idea if that's the proper amount. If its too much then we risk the plastic cracking again. If its not enough then we risk abrasion damage caused by the fender moving around (the term is fretting).
3. I don't know yet what is causing the vertical crack but I have the suspicion its something different and not from over-clamping (new term) the plastic. I've thought all along that it was being caused by wind stressing the fender but I'm only guessing. In other words, we might stop one crack but not affect the other crack.
One thing I can say is that when I tighten the screws up with my insert in place the screw definitely tightened hard against the fork lower and not the plastic and the fender feels very secure. I've noticed when tightening it up before that the shoulder screw was tightening on the plastic and not the fork lower so I think we've accomplished at least something.
The other day someone posted that he had a fix for this problem even in the case the fender is already broken. It was the fellow who makes the brake pedal modification and runs this website www.victorybrakepedal.com. I apologize that I don't know his name but I subsequently noticed that his post is gone. Maybe Jeff didn't appreciate it? Anyway, possibly he has a better solution and will respond here. He did mention that it was a secret so I don't know what his fix consists of. Maybe its like Obamacare where, "we have to pass it so you can find out what's in it" but in this case we have to buy it first. Just joking :-) He said he was afraid someone might rip off his idea which I guess is possible.
In any case, please let me know what you guys think and if it seems like a good idea I'll make a bunch.
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | When I bought my Clearwater lights, they came with new bolts replacing the ones with a shoulder. There method uses a washer with a shoulder and thin nylon washers that fit over the shoulder to get the correct thickness. Let's see if I have a picture of the parts.....
Anyone know where to get these?
Edited by Nozzledog 2013-12-28 8:40 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | Hey Nozzledog
Glenn from Clearwater may be able to help you out. I spoke with him a couple of times when I ordered my Darlas. He was extremely accommodating. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Nozzledog --- I believe those replace the bolts for the front section of the fender. It's the rear section that has the problems. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Monkeyman - 2013-12-28 8:02 PM
Nozzledog --- I believe those replace the bolts for the front section of the fender. It's the rear section that has the problems. Except for the length, the front and rear shoulder bolts are the same dimensions as is the diameter of the holes. The washers would have to be really thin in order to use them to get the correct clamping. There has to be something different between the front and rear fender. The front fender has between .010" - .020" clamping and yet the shoulder hits solidly against the fork lower without cracking the plastic. The material looks the same but something is different. The paint maybe? In any case, the rear cracks at the same clamping as the front but the front doesn't crack. Why? Seems like the rear is a whole lot more brittle.
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | I know they came for the front portion, but they may be a solution for the rear fender. Get those, and some nylon washers that can be sanded down to the appropriate thickness for your own fender, and that may solve the problem.
I have already replaced my fender with a fiberglass one. I'm just trying to help out with ideas. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 691
Manchester, CT | hey Nozzledog...whose fender did you go with? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | HMD520
The rear portion is $185 and wraps further down the tire. A $7 can of bedliner spray, and it looks just like OEM. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 117
Spring Hill, Tennessee | Had a friend of mine apply this filler to the inner part of the plastic. Hopefully you can see this has doubled the thickness of the area around the hole. Will be installing later and hope to avoid this problem again?
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | Tennessee Vision - 2014-01-03 10:58 AM
Had a friend of mine apply this filler to the inner part of the plastic. Hopefully you can see this has doubled the thickness of the area around the hole. Will be installing later and hope to avoid this problem again?
PERFECT! That is all that is needed. Is that fiberglassed?
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Cruiser
Posts: 117
Spring Hill, Tennessee | I believe it is fiberglass, but I'm not for sure. I am not skilled enough to do such work. I explained to my friend (who is a professional painter) what was happening to these fenders and what I needed. He came up with this solution. He did not guarantee this would be the "end all" solution, but felt it was indeed likely to add enough strength to this weak area that it could prevent it from happening again. After seeing the added thickness to this area I am also convinced it should work out just fine.
Edited by Tennessee Vision 2014-01-03 11:27 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | When you tighten the bolt I would think since the bolt head will be against the fiberglass patch and may tear it lose from the fender, also you have now thicken the over all plastic area and now there no way the bolt shoulder will touch the mount on the fork. Good idea and I hope it works but I think it won't unless you can find a long shoulder bolt. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | I got the spacer collars in today and installed them on my bike, now it's a waiting game and miles....sorry it's winter as I won't know if this works or not until I get some miles on the bike.
I think some rubber washers on either side after using the spacer collars would do the trick though! The spacer collars are m6x4mm from Speedyfasteners.com.......The bolts are SCR-HXFLGHD,M6X16,0600086.......$.50EA at Don Wood Victory Dealer, they are used for the front fairing the same bolts at hold the grill on our bikes.
If anybody needs or wants these spacer collars PM me and I'll send them to you for a small fee. Shipping will be the killer here! I have 6 fenders worth!
I'm not trying to get rich with this possible fix just trying to help all of us out as Victory doesn't give a crap about you and don't forget it.
Edited by diamonbird 2014-01-08 4:34 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | ....just trying to help all of us out as Victory doesn't give a crap about you and don't forget it.
WORD !!! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| I mounted a new fender today using a couple of spacers I made. The right and left are different since the plastic thickness varies. The good thing is that the thickness is consistant from fender to fender or so it seems. I made the spacers to have a .005" compression on the plastic which is not much but certainly won't crack it. We'll see what happens. 
Marc |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | What I've done is real close to what you've done other than I didn't make the spacer.
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Cruiser
Posts: 215
Boydsville, AR United States | The same thing on my 08 last summer. I put it off the having a new front tire put on in Sturgis, and they broke it while on the lift. I didn't notice it right away, but did notice a raddle, til my front wouldn't steer. Used a bungee cord to get home, and then replaced it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
| wseemann - 2014-01-20 4:48 PM The same thing on my 08 last summer. I put it off the having a new front tire put on in Sturgis, and they broke it while on the lift. I didn't notice it right away, but did notice a raddle, til my front wouldn't steer. Used a bungee cord to get home, and then replaced it. Now there's an IDEA. If every Vision owner rode around with around bunge cord on thier finder till Victory desided to fix the fender, it mite ENBARIS them in to fixing it. A bad rap will get more than a need any day! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | You will be a very long time riding around with that bunge cord waiting on MaVic to fix anything that could be fixed.......they got your $money$ and that's ALL they were hoping for! You can tell by the way they respond to the problem. It's a wear item you know!? |
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New user
Posts: 2
Maine | I fell victim to the front fender defect this past weekend on my 2011 Vision. Mine lasted until 35,500 miles which is a lot more than other peoples experience. What gets me is that Ma Vic fails to acknowledge there is an issue. Instead they have helped generate a whole new market for new fenders for us riders who care about being safe as we cruise down the road. I filed a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (www.nhtsa.gov/). I certainly wasn't the first but I felt it was my responsibility to bring as much attention to this issue as possible. Interesting to note that the NHTSA launched an investigation into this very issue this past March. No posting of any response from the mother ship.
I've enjoyed my Vision but I didn't expect all the issues I've encountered and many of these within the first year. First major defect was the starter died; later the transmission locked up because of a set screw that dropped into the sump. Then issues with the cruise control and radio working intermittently. Bad master cylinder for the rear brake and now the fender. Bikes in the shop right now for rear fender replacement, new brake cylinder and a new cruise control module. All this for $1,100 |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Just thought I'd mention that since installing the last new fender with custom made spacers as pictured above the fender has been fine. It's been 5 months which is longer than the first few lasted. I think the amount of compression applied by the original screws is what's causing the cracks. If that's true then it wouldn't take much for the factory to come up with updated screws. Doesn't look like they're interested though.
Marc |
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