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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | As the Indian reveal hype ramps up in Sturgis this weekend, you can feel the sense of gloom throughout the Victory world. Victory guys (myself included) kind of got our feelings hurt with the latest Indian commercial: "Choice is Coming". Shoot, I thought "choice was coming" on July 4th, 1999 when Victory built the first V92C. I felt like riders have had a legitimate American choice for 15 years now. Then Polaris bought Indian. If you are a true motorcycle buff, you are a fan of all brands at some level. Some stand out more than others. I'm not a Harely fan but I respect their story and their marketing genius. I've always been an Indian fan but they were never an option for me. Raising 5 kids, I never had the financial resources or time to buy an old Indian and keep it running. The "new" Indians might as well have been Bugatti's. $40,000 out the door for a motorcycle and only 14 dealerships was Jay Leno territory to me. Then Polaris bought Indian. I totalled my Vision last year and have been sitting on the sidelines, seeing what would play out between then and the summer of 2014, when I retire. I didn't want to jump right back on a new Vision and make that 50 mile commute through really high-risk traffic for another year and a half before I retired. I'm having my right hip replace next week. I asked myself, "What will your retirement riding be like?" Wow, no commute. No foul weather riding, just to get to work and back. No 110 degree heat index days, just to get to work and back. 90% of my riding was the commute. 10% was for pleasure. When I retire, it will be 100% for pleasure. I'll still have lousy heat and weather to deal with out on a trip, but that is a whole different animal than commuting through heavy traffic in those conditions. With that said, do I really need a Vision for the way I will ride when I retire? This conversation has been going on in my head since last summer. Then Polaris revealed the Thunder Stroke 111. I'm not one to throw four letter words around a lot but "Holy sh*t!. Look at that motor! These guys are blowing this Indian thing out of the water!" The Kings Mountain Indians are pretty but they still just had S&S motors with bottlecap tops on them. The TS 111 changed everything for me. I know Polaris and I know how dedicated they are to doing things right (even if it's not on my timetable). I know that everything they make will be engineered well. I know about the design team and lets just say I'm pretty comfortable with those guys. The TS 111 is one of their crowning achievements. The Spirit of Munro bike is cool beyond words. Then Polaris offered a pre-order for the 2014 Chief, sight unseen (for the most part), with a base price of $18,999. Stick a fork in me, I'm done. The 2007 Vision juices were flowing full tilt and I have to have one. It will fit my retirement style perfectly. The Vision years were by far the best I ever had with any vehicle in my life. It was exactly what I needed at the time and literally save me when I got forced off the road. If I still had it, I wouldn't be getting the Indian. The Indian opportunity is just too good to pass up for me. Now that I have moved to the other side of the Polaris assembly line, my thoughts go to how will Indian and Victory co-exist? The first inclination is that Indian will kill Victory. The truth is, it will. Numerically. It will not kill Victory as a brand. Polaris could not have picked a more iconic brand to buy than Indian. It is a 100% pure genius business move that the entire motorcycle world has been waiting for for over 50 years. Polaris Indian will take on a life of it's own that the Victory guys should just sit back and marvel at. It's not competition with Victory, it's competion with Harley. Harley has never worried about Victory as a threat. They have lost an insignificant number of their riders to Victory. Indian is a whole different animal. The most viewed YouTube on the Victory Motorcycle Channel is the Judge, with 208,000 hits in a year. (The most watched Vision video has 66,600 hits in three years.) The 2014 Indian Sneak Peak video has 359,000 hits since May of this year. It's a big deal. Victory riders pick Victory because they want something American other than what H-D has to offer. They get more modern bikes that have better engineering across the board. Nothing can touch the Vision for long distance road trips and jaw dropping second looks. The trade-off is fewer dealerships and less aftermarket choices. Even finding a metal Victory sign for the man cave is a challenge. The Indian aftermarket is set to explode. I love Victory motorcycles and am one of their greatest fans. I can't wait to see what they come out with down the road. Victoy vs Indian: May they BOTH win! |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Good writeup
The "Choice is coming" campaign doesn't offend me, as a Victory rider, and I don't think it should. In my honest opinion, the Victory brand takes a larger bite out of the folks that are stepping up on the metric ladder. Every Victory owner I know was not a prior Harley owner. I'm not saying there aren't converts, but I'd bet the larger portion of Victory buyers did not own a HD. I'm sure Victory has done their homework here too. The move to launch the Indian Chief is directly aimed at HD.
The people that bleed orange continue to make all kinds of weird justifications on why they like their HDs over anything else. They wouldn't be caught dead buying a Victory. For a while, they could use the "buy American" line, but now that the riding club I'm in has several Victory owners they HD loyalists just find new justifications. Guess it's hard when you're model lineup has less cubes and has been behind the technology curve at times. Hey, I don't care, ride what you want, but it does show you the strength of brand loyalty Harley has built. It's blind love. The Indian, however, harkens back to the HD/Indian rivalry and actually has a good shot at taking a larger bite of the HD would be buyers.
There still is some crossover within the Victory/Indian brand lineups, but they'll sort that out. Some models may disappear. However, for the most part I see the two brands coexisting rather than competing. There won't be an Indian Vision, that's for sure.
Can't wait to hear how your Indian is and wish you best of luck in your retirement. Once a Vision owner, always a Vision owner. It's kinda one of those loves you will never forget. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Why wasnt Indian successful in the past? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Well I think SongFan hit one of the more recent failures of the brand. At one point the pricing for an Indian Chief was ridiculous. Just not going to break into a market with that. My neighbor once tried to sell a used Indian Chief for like $32k. Just not an accessible price for most buyers.
But the original demise occurred in the 50s. They actually retooled their factory to pitch in for the WWII effort, putting their Indian motorcycle production on hold. Then when they had to switch back, this was too costly to subsist. They started producing bikes that weren't really what the market wanted in order to keep costs down and ultimately met their demise. Then there were all kinds of debacles from there forward. I think they were purchased by a British interest which basically used the line as a sacrificial lamb to leverage the Indian dealer network. They may have built Enfield Indians, but these were just rebadged imports. I think for the most part this continued with different bikes (often as the brand was sold to different manufacturers) being rebadged for a while. This would never compete with the stronghold HD started developing in the 60s with this strategy.
It's a cool story. And definitely would be an interesting "survivalist" brand if it makes it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | dogfish73 - 2013-08-01 12:22 PM Can't wait to hear how your Indian is and wish you best of luck in your retirement. Once a Vision owner, always a Vision owner. It's kinda one of those loves you will never forget. Thanks. You are so right. As for the history of Indian, here's the short version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_motorcycle |
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Tourer
Posts: 411
Dallas, Texas | Perhaps we'll finally get a presents of Victory and Indian in the DFW area, that competes. I have yet to understand why they don't try harder in this area. You can ride comfortably 10 of 12 months a year. And with just some effort, 12 months out of the year. And a customer base with a decent percentage of disposable income, area wide. HD is a heavy hitter here...anyone want to guess why... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'll sum it. Victory sells modern, dependable bikes. HD sells culture and history, Indian is selling culture, history and dependability. Victory has never been able to compete against HDs culture, never will in my opinion. Even Gold Wing has some culture to it, on a different level. Even with the influence of Arlen Ness, and the likes of Lloyd and Kevin Cross, Victory remains just a cool and dependable bike.
Since the last Indian rolled off in 1953 the culture has remained, and is alive and well, just not as many, but very strong. Again, Victory cannot compete against that aspect... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| I don't think it will ever truly be Victory versus Indian, more likely Victory WITH Indian. Think about it, Indian NEVER has has a full dress touring bike and Victory's recent rapid increase in popularity is due entirely to its bagger and touring bikes, can you see a better fit? Heritage styling and looks in Indian, modern styling and amenities in Victory.
I love my Vision but for what I call an "around town bike" it is a bit much. I traded in my nicely set up '07 Kingpin in order to get my wife a new bike last year and I think I'm due for another "around town bike", that bike could be a Victory Boardwalk but could just as well as be an Indian Chief with bags and a windshield. JUST SAYING
Oh, Songfan, once you get your new Indian, and since I want one myself, I can already envision custom exhaust tips that look like feathers trailing out from the exhaust......................  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| BTW, and it's a very big thought, has anyone realized that Polaris opened its doors the very year after the original Indian closed theirs? Hmm, makes you wonder............. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Travelin Man - 2013-08-01 7:14 PM Oh, Songfan, once you get your new Indian, and since I want one myself, I can already envision custom exhaust tips that look like feathers trailing out from the exhaust...................... T-Man you are killin me. As if I'm not getting enough sleep already. Here's an e-mail I got from my dealer yesterday. (Charlotte Indian) Hi,
Congratulations and thanks again for your prestigious membership in the “Chiefs Club” and working your way toward the ownership of the all-new 2014 Indian Chief. Our membership is limited to just 50 members and the thrill of owning an Indian is sure to bring warm memories and smiles for years to come.
Coming this Saturday, the new Chief will be introduced in Sturgis, South Dakota at the rally that was started over 70 years ago by Indian followers. You can see the reveal and learn much new information on Saturday night at www.indianmotorcycle.com and I will be sending you an email with specific details about the new Chief so you can start solidifying the order for your personal new Chief. FYI, 1901 of the very first models will be numbered by the factory ensuring the future collectable value of the early buyers like you.
Stay tuned for some more info from me, but photos will go live late Saturday night on the Indian website.
Regards, Mark Moses |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Lindale, TX | I would love an Indian with Polaris dependability. However, looking at Indian history (which Polaris is striving to preserve), I don't find any models which would fit into the "full Touring" class I'm enjoying with my Vision. I don't think a Indian has ever sported a fairing on any kind, let alone a sound system.
Victory will still be the choice for touring I believe. |
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Tourer
Posts: 494
Akron Ohio area | Songfan
I retired and bought a new bike as a retirement present to myself, put 38,000 miles on her in 3 years, traded her in on my 2011 Vision and just clicked over 56,000 miles on her.
Commuting?
Not one mile on either bike.
Don't sell yourself short on what kind of riding you'll do once you're retired.
Presently, Indian does not have the motorcycle that fits all my needs for long distance touring like the Vision does. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Sent an email to Mark, he calls me about 5 minutes later, he's on his way to Sturgis. (mind wheels are spinning). This is guy is on top notch.
Anyways, the ergo's on the Indian Chief will be relatively the same as the Vision, I'm predicting. The thing you'll miss is the wind management, but with a windshield, you won't care. No, it's not a touring bike, but I believe I could ride a Chief just as far as I would on a Vision, well, if I wanted too. I would do a token IBA ride on the Chief, but after that, it's stop and smell the coffee. I'm already slowing down on my Vision and the tassels on the bars helps me think what it would be like riding a Chief... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Lindale, TX | <p>Full touring Indian would be mine quickly! Love the engine</p><p> </p>
Edited by Easttexasrider 2013-08-01 10:33 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Full touring Indian : Super Chief ??
I stole the name from the last SantaFe and Western streamliner passenger train Ooops............
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Here's another quick read on how we got here: http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/04/15/indian-motorcycles-history-of-americas-oldest-motorcycle-brand/ |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Harley - Indian wars of the past are not possible today. Back then Harley and Indian were virtually tied for market share after the failures of Henderson, Excelsior, Thor, Cleveland, Cyclone and the list goes on.. That won't be the case for the forseeable future. Harley is just to big to take on and beat. But I do think that Indian will sell well. There are alot of romantics out there..........But eventualy they will need several models so people can have a choice............ |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | At this point it has nothing to do with a replacement for the Vision or even buying a "better" bike. It just feels like 2007 all over again when I was in on something that was really exclusive. I ordered a Vision before I ever saw one in person and the rush of owning something that no one had ever seen before was something that was totally new and exciting for me. The Indian release feels 100 times bigger than the Vision release and it won't sneak up on people like the Vision did. It still feels cool knowing that even though you have heard about the new Indian, it will be quite a while before you actually see one in person just out and about. I'm amazed that in this day and age there have been no leaks or spy shots anywhere on the internet. You gotta hand it to Polaris, when those guys want to keep a secret, it stays kept. It will be interesting to see how the Indian line expands. It some ways it is predictable because Indians have to have a certain "look", but in other ways I see the design group pushing the envelope a bit. Building a Scout to go along with the Chief doesn't seem like it would be that tough for Polaris, especially looking at what they do with the Victory bikes. Use the same drivetrain but swap out fenders, tire sizes and handlebars and you have a new model. I could definitely see those guys building an inline four as a prototype bike, like they did with the CORE. Would probably never see production but would be cool to look at and dream about. Indian bobber would be cool also. Fully faired touring bike? I can't see it. I was a Victory guy because the Vision was such a ground-breaking American bike and they had the highest rated customer satisfaction in the industry. It still blows me away at how good it was in 2008, right out of the chute. I'm now an Indian guy because I know Polaris will do this right. The entire motorcycle world is aching for the Indian brand to finally get back on course. Even Harley guys want to see it succeed. Having been run by foreign investors for so long has been sacreligious on so many levels. Indian and Victory may never really challenge Harley, numbers-wise, in my lifetime. As I like to tell my Harley buddies in a language they understand - "It ain't about that." |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Songfan, I agree about the release fo the New Indian being way past what was happening with Victory back in 1998. I hope you're wrong about a Full Touring rig Chief beacuse I could see me trading one of the Visions for a big streamliner Chief with a fairing and hard bags along the flowing lines of the front fender. Just wishing ya see............. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | For those that are unfamiliar with Songfan, this is exactly the way he was back in 2007 with the vision. He needed a blog to put his thoughts much like now! Hoping for the best for an old friend. Best guy you could ever meet. I can't wait to hear him rattle some more and to see it. Maybe we'll trade bikes one afternoon. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | Looking forward to tomorrow night to see the results of the hard work that went into making the new Indians.
pollolittle is right about Songfan. Songfan is the person I want to be when I grow up!
Ride Safe |
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Cruiser
Posts: 133
New Castle Delaware | I would not rule out a full touring Indian model. When I was at Americade this past June I was talking with one of the Polaris techs and was telling him how much I loved my Vision but was very excited about the Indian. I asked him about a possible touring model. He said what equipment do you wish your Vision had that it doesn't? I was thinking. He said how bout a fully intergrated GPS system like the Goldwings have. That would be cool right? He said just wait till the new Indians come out. He told me as far as handling the new Chief was the easy bike he ever rode. You will not be disappointed! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | The guessing for the base model at least will be over tonight. I can't see $19,000 being the most expensive bike in a expanded Indian lineup. History and culture are one thing but Polaris is a corporation that makes money and a expanded line will make more money for them, I'm sure they have expansion plans. That being said I can't wait to see the first bikes tonight, I'm sure they will look great.........Wish I was in Stugis. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Po and radioteacher, you guys are killin me. I'm sure some of the guys around here are thinkin "This is a VISION forum! Take your Indian and move along already!" Ahh, if only it were that easy. Some of the best motorcycle friends I have in the world are on this forum and I have never met them face to face. The ones I have met have made impressions that I will tell stories about for the rest of my life. There is still a long list of guys from here that I plan on meeting regardless of what I ride. Jedi Jeff, Miles, KevinX, varyder, donetracey, Travelin Man, Crawford, Tarpits99, CoolHandLuke, excelboy10, Cometman, DersertJim, Lone Ranger, Spock, uknessie (in Great Britain!), XRSteve....just to name a few. These are the guys who have partcipated here with opinions and ideas that have enhanced the Vision world for the better. I'm not kidding myself by thinking that there is another forum in the Indian world that will be like this one. 2,000 Indian posters? I think not. I am a Vision guy. I will always be a Vision guy. I'm not going anywhere and will give you guys the biggest wave/fistpump you ever saw if I see you on the road. In a twisted bit of irony, I got a letter from my Victory dealer here in Memphis yesterday. Due to a number of factors, they will be dropping the Victory lineup from their inventory. Just not profitable here. My new dealer is 500 miles away. Mark Moses and Charlotte Indian will always be my dealer, no matter who else opens up closer to me. I can hear it now..."Where's Dad?" "Oh, he needed new tires and an oil change on the Chief, he'll be back in a week."
Edited by SongFan 2013-08-03 9:10 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | On Cyril's blog he interviews Greg Brew, who mentions a fairing.
What will the Indians really look like?
I'll be glued to the tube tonight for sure! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Songfan, maybe I'll see you at the Charlotte Indian/ Victory dealer sometime. I live 275 miles from that dealer, but I stop in quite often on my way to Charlotte to see family. They seem like really nice people. I hope they seel alot of bikes this coming year, Victory and Indian. Best looking stand alone Victory dealershio I've seen......... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | What's in a name? A lot, and Indian has a name in history and biking culture, Polaris knows better to mess that up with a lot of experiments to see what works. I see the motorcycle world runs in veins, and you've got to hit the biggest vein for the market you're appealing too. AMF threw Harley for a loop that took a while to recover. Didn't they just get a bail-out? If we had that mind-set in 1953, Indian may have been bailed out as well. Perception drives a train, and it is as individual as the rider. Indian will be driven by the old-fart vein, and it will prove itself to be the best marketing tool out there. No one will ever say "what's that" about an Indian, like they do with the Vision and Victory in general.
I'm glad I made the cut, Tom, and I hope to meet you some day soon, maybe in Charlotte. ;o) |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | varyder - 2013-08-03 10:03 AM I'm glad I made the cut, Tom, and I hope to meet you some day soon, maybe in Charlotte. ;o) Hey Chris. Man, those names just rushed out at me as I reminisced about the early days. KansasGuardsman, the two Toms - Carolina Tom and Chandler Tom, markh (I wonder how many miles he has now),Newfie, Lowtone9, Breaker, BUCKEYE...the list goes on and on. So many characters I'd like to sit across the table from. I'll definitely keep you guys posted on when I'll head over to Charlotte. I told my wife today that I'm not gonna make it to next summer. I'm gonna go ahead and order the bike the day I'm eligible and have Mark Moses and gang go ahead and set it up for me ASAP. I told my youngest son today (the one that did the Continental Divide trip with me 10 years ago) that I'm gonna recover from the hip surgery as fast as I can (enough to travel) and shoot for an October trip to pick up the bike. I'll sign for it and hand the keys to my son and let him ride it home over the Smokies. As the Bob Seger song goes....Turn the Page. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | ...roll me away... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| Those are the memories, that make me a wealthy soul...... |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | Nice one Tom,
Buckeye.....I was trying to remember that screen name last night.
I will check back after 8:00 PM. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | its "almost" like polaris is GM and victory and Indian are the (Buick, Oldsmobile,ponitac etc) |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | its "almost" like polaris is GM and victory and Indian are the (Buick, Oldsmobile,ponitac etc) |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | It's a win/win if polaris dosen't alienate victory riders. Let's face it victorys dealer network is lacking. If they try to keep indian and victory seperate then victory looses. EVERYONE knows polaris makes both, can't understand why they would. But I'm not polaris, and we all know about vics customer support. If they're smart vic/indian dealers would definetly benifit all. Kind of like a cadillac/buick dealer. |
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Tourer
Posts: 494
Akron Ohio area | Songfan,
Is your new Indian going to be a Chieftain? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | bigfoot, Nope, it will be a red Vintage. My dream color combo would be turquoise/ivory but it's not an option right now. I actually like the blue the best as a color and that's what I would get if I got a Chieftan. Since I'm going old school with Beach Bars and fringes hanging off the grips and levers, I decided to go with red. When I think classic Indian, I think valanced fenders and red, right off the bat. I was totally unprepared for an Indian with a fairing so when the Chieftan showed up I was completely gobsmacked. I couldn't even bring myself to consider it as an option because I was so committed to a leather bagged Chief. Now that I can get my head around it, I would take a Chieftan over a Cross Country in a heartbeat because of the power windshield and awesome dash/keyless features. (If I still had my Lloydz-cammed Vision, all painted up like I had it, the Indians would not even be an option for me.) I had my heart set on a Chief with stressed leather and fringe hanging everwhere so that is what I am going with. Totally opposite of the Vision. I can see myself taking regular backroads trips without the windshield on it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 123
NE Florida Jacksonville | You will enjoy retirement Songfan, I'm keeping my Vision because it is a superb touring bike. However I just put my deposit down on a 2014 Chief Vintage because I love the bike and it reminds me of my dads 1949 Indian Chief. It's a family thing. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | ingle51, I am so pumped about retirement, I can hardly stand myself. My youngest daughter asked me today: "So, even with the Indian, do you think you'll ever get another Vision?" I paused for a second and said "Let me put it this way, my brain is already thinking about what it would be like to have both and how would I use each of them differently. Knowing me like you do, you know where this is going." |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Hahaha, I started laughing, you and I think alot alike. Even though I have two beautiful Visions down in the garage right now this Indian thing has me looking forward to a Chieftain test ride like a 12 year old on December 1st thinking about a BB gun for Christmas........ It's great and kinda weird at the same time........... |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Scott Wine is back in New York and is all over the business/money circuit this week. Click on nearly any business related website, search scott wine and he is all over the place in both print and video interviews. We all know that the focus has been on the Indian release over the last two years so this article should be good news to Victory guys. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-05/three-big-indians-to-revive-a-century-old-motorcycle-brand |
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Tourer
Posts: 520
Simi Valley, CA | If Indian was around in 2009 when I bought my Vision, I'd be riding an Indian. I can not wait to sit on the new Indians and take one for a test ride.
While I would never get ride of my Vision, what a compliment to the Vision styling would be to have a Chief parked next to it. I want one, I will own one within a year.
I agree with Songfan too... the Red Vintage with all the fringe they make hanging off the bastard!
Go Polaris!
Tim
Edited by Cometman 2013-08-06 12:46 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 123
NE Florida Jacksonville | Well written Songfan thanks for your insight. I too am a Vision enthusiast and love my 2010 ABS Vision. However I have made room in my garage for a new 2014 Indian Chief Vintage. I put a deposit down on a red one and can't wait to pick it up. May Polaris live long and prosper, sorry too much Star Trek.
Darryl Ingle |
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Tourer
Posts: 520
Simi Valley, CA | Never too much Star Trek.. |
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Victory vs Indian