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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
The Flying Panty Dropper has been Kevinated, Rylanified and Lloyded with Rylan's 110" kit, a Power Programmer, a Lloyd's flashed ECM, Lloyd's adjustable cam gear and a Scorpion clutch. not to mention the existing cams, filters and Big Honker mufflers.
Almost 122hp and 129 ft lbs!!
Yup, it's a friggen' blast!
Thanks to Kevin, Joe, Rylan and Lloyd'z!
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
The "FPD":
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | I know what I want for Christmas. Very nice. |
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Tourer
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seattle, wa | F.P.D.
I love it! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Nice indeed.............. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Very nice, I thought the kit was a 116 though.
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
Thanks guys. 
Between the things I've seen, the stories I've heard and on the advice of those in the know, I skipped the 116 and went with the 110. Rylan's 110 kit still uses nicasil and avoids the iron liner. That equals a cooler running Vic.
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Cruiser
Posts: 181
Henlow, Bedfordshire, England | Very Nice, particularly like how you got the 3rd (short) guy in the trunk....  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| cook06vegas - 2012-11-08 9:23 PM Thanks guys. Between the things I've seen, the stories I've heard and on the advice of those in the know, I skipped the 116 and went with the 110. Rylan's 110 kit still uses nicasil and avoids the iron liner. That equals a cooler running Vic. Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the 110. |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | uknessie - 2012-11-09 12:49 AM
Very Nice, particularly like how you got the 3rd (short) guy in the trunk....
HA HA! Do you remember "Dorf On Golf"? --> http://golf-glutton.com/2011/02/19/dorf-on-golf/
He's retired and now rides around in the trunk of my Vision...
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| 110's are awesome! Here's a dyno run from my old '06 KP down in Daytona. It was originally built by Rylan, then rebuilt by me immediately prior to riding it from KC to Daytona, so the tune was still a little off. This had the TT intake on it, which added to the power too.
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | Turk - 2012-11-09 9:37 AM
110's are awesome! Here's a dyno run from my old '06 KP down in Daytona. It was originally built by Rylan, then rebuilt by me immediately prior to riding it from KC to Daytona, so the tune was still a little off. This had the TT intake on it, which added to the power too.
DAMN! That is SWEET!
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| cook06vegas - 2012-11-09 9:12 AM
Turk - 2012-11-09 9:37 AM
110's are awesome! Here's a dyno run from my old '06 KP down in Daytona. It was originally built by Rylan, then rebuilt by me immediately prior to riding it from KC to Daytona, so the tune was still a little off. This had the TT intake on it, which added to the power too.
DAMN! That is SWEET!
I used YOUR rebuild pics from your old Vegas as my reference for doing this one myself.... lol Right down to the wood boards for tie downs! |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Turk, those are some serious numbers for an engine that started life as a 100 cu. in. and the reliability and ridability are still there as evidenced by the trip from K.C. to Daytona revealed. True there's no replacement for displacement but, I personally prefer to get more frome less. Other than the engine size I really think mother Victory made some other internal design changes to the 106 from the 100's that cause the 106 not to respond as favorably to mods as the 100's do. Given the same mods you did on that 100 another would not achieve the same results with a 106, but both of you have some really awsome numbers without resorting to liners. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| V92SC - 2012-11-09 9:25 AM
Turk, those are some serious numbers for an engine that started life as a 100 cu. in. and the reliability and ridability are still there as evidenced by the trip from K.C. to Daytona revealed. True there's no replacement for displacement but, I personally prefer to get more frome less. Other than the engine size I really think mother Victory made some other internal design changes to the 106 from the 100's that cause the 106 not to respond as favorably to mods as the 100's do. Given the same mods you did on that 100 another would not achieve the same results with a 106, but both of you have some really awsome numbers without resorting to liners.
Very true regarding the 08 and newer engines not responding as well to mods as the 07's and older. Combined with open loop vs. closed loop FI.... and the ability to use the fabulous Lloydz TT intake! I was very methodical about the rebuild, using some 'tips' from a buddy who used to build racing motors (in cars) and knows how to make power. I also rode that bike from KC to DC and back last year also. I think I put around 15k miles on that build before I traded it for my Vision. I did eventually take the TT intake off and replaced the S&S. I just didn't like the breather fumes from the TT. I may have lost some power doing it, but I sure never felt it in throttle response. I also was meticulous about tuning the PC3. Had an air fuel gauge on the handlebars, and carried a small laptop with me to make adjustments to the PC3 at gas stops. It eventually got a really flat 13:1 fuel curve, across the board. That bike was so smooth.... I had nitrous on it too between Rylan's build and my later build. lol Those numbers were sick! But, it eventually blew a head gasket, which is why I had to rebuild it into what that dyno graph shows.
Edited by Turk 2012-11-09 9:44 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | Turk - 2012-11-09 10:24 AM
I used YOUR rebuild pics from your old Vegas as my reference for doing this one myself.... lol Right down to the wood boards for tie downs!
COOL!
This one? --> http://forums.thevmc.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64064&posts=...
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| cook06vegas - 2012-11-09 10:01 AM
Turk - 2012-11-09 10:24 AM
I used YOUR rebuild pics from your old Vegas as my reference for doing this one myself.... lol Right down to the wood boards for tie downs!
COOL!
This one? --> http://forums.thevmc.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64064&posts=...
YUP! (davidT) Finally met ya face to face in Helen over the summer I believe..... |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
Yup, I remember. Didn't get to talk too much. Seems like time just flew down there... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 116
| Hey Matt, that is Awesome..it looks like some great fun! |
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | I have been interested in your build since talking to Dylan and Kevin. What cams do you have??? |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | Dwight - 2012-11-10 10:15 AM
Hey Matt, that is Awesome..it looks like some great fun!
Wana ride it again? 
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | dr_reloader - 2012-11-10 6:59 PM
I have been interested in your build since talking to Dylan and Kevin. What cams do you have???
Who's Dylan? Do you mean Rylan, from the Vic Shop?
Anyway, I have these:
From Lloyd's website:
"HOH-VM1:
With incredible power increases for stock compression 100 and 106 inch motors. Tested in a 100/6 stage-1 Vegas, we pulled 106hp and 110 ft lbs of torque. These are drop in cams that require no valve springs or head modifications. For maximum benefit a good performance exhaust and fuel controller are highly recommended. These cams will fit 2000-2008 Engines 100-110 inch."
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Cruiser
Posts: 116
| Hells Yeah!!!!!! Me,,,Me,,,Me over here I will do it!!!...lol |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | If anyone is interested in the 110" kits give me a call. I've been putting them out there for almost 2 years and everyone loves them. It has been a while since I've done a Vision myself, but Matt's numbers are about what I'd expect. I've done several 110 XC's this year, the last one had 120ft/lbs at 3000rpms.
Here a real nice chart from a 2009 Hammer, 110" that I did this past winter. A good intake and exhaust really makes this combo shine! Most XC's come out to 120ft/lbs 115Hp, Visions are more as they have better intake mods available.
Also these motors can run on 87 octane without issue.
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Tourer
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Lansing, MI | Dwight - 2012-11-10 7:52 PM
Hells Yeah!!!!!! Me,,,Me,,,Me over here I will do it!!!...lol
Next time we're riding together, it's all yours...
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | cook06vegas - 2012-11-10 6:33 PM dr_reloader - 2012-11-10 6:59 PM I have been interested in your build since talking to Dylan and Kevin. What cams do you have??? Who's Dylan? Do you mean Rylan, from the Vic Shop? Anyway, I have these: From Lloyd's website: "HOH-VM1: With incredible power increases for stock compression 100 and 106 inch motors. Tested in a 100/6 stage-1 Vegas, we pulled 106hp and 110 ft lbs of torque. These are drop in cams that require no valve springs or head modifications. For maximum benefit a good performance exhaust and fuel controller are highly recommended. These cams will fit 2000-2008 Engines 100-110 inch." freakin spell check on this phone... i meant Rylan
Edited by dr_reloader 2012-11-11 7:41 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | <p>.</p><p> </p> |
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Cruiser
Posts: 116
| cook06vegas - 2012-11-11 7:55 AM
Dwight - 2012-11-10 7:52 PM
Hells Yeah!!!!!! Me,,,Me,,,Me over here I will do it!!!...lol
Next time we're riding together, it's all yours...
Sounds good to me!!! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Here is the latest 110" Vision that we built. Runs on 87 octane and makes 120ft/lbs from 3-5Krpms. Final numbers are 122H-124Ft/lbs
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Cruiser
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| Now that is Awesome.. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Thanks! Sorry the graph is so small, I had to downsize the crap out of it in order to post it! |
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | You're killing me... |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | I need a little info here. This 110 is achieved with or without a liner? What is the cr 10.8 or 10.5:1? What else does the bike that the graph above have in addition to the 110 kit? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | The 110" motor uses a Nikasil coating - the exact same as your stock bike, just 2mm larger bore.
10.3 compression forged Weisco pistons
VM1-HP cam and springs on this bike
Lloydz adjustable intake 46mm inserts
Lloydz top filter
Power Commander 5
Lloydz timing gear
$350 worth of head porting and valve work
Ness Honker slip-ons with full cats in place |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
WOW! Mine is really working good then huh? I have all the same mods as above minus the adjustable intake and the head work. Seems like the head work would have been a huge adavantage. I do have Lloyd's reflashed ECM though...
Mine made 121.6/128.8. Rylan, could you compare Kevin's dyno graph to yours and see where the differences are?
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Cruiser
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The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Too many variables. Two different bikes, different dynos, different days. These graphs show GENERALLY what a 110 Vision is capable of, not EXACTLY. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| What does a typical 110 build cost? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Depends on what you have already, and how far you want to take it. As pictured: about $5000 if you started with a stg1 bike with no aftermarket parts. Significantly less for those with half the Lloyds parts already installed. |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | Vicbuilder - 2013-01-10 9:59 AM
Too many variables. Two different bikes, different dynos, different days. These graphs show GENERALLY what a 110 Vision is capable of, not EXACTLY.
Well yeah, that makes sense.....
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | cook06vegas - 2013-01-10 9:30 AM
WOW! Mine is really working good then huh? I have all the same mods as above minus the adjustable intake and the head work. Seems like the head work would have been a huge adavantage. I do have Lloyd's reflashed ECM though...
Mine made 121.6/128.8. Rylan, could you compare Kevin's dyno graph to yours and see where the differences are?
My dyno is usually spot on with the DJ dyno for horses, but it tends to be a tad generous in torque. Back to back. I bet the runs would look virtually the same. I am loving the NIKASIL 110 build. ??All the power, and none of the grief |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | The linerless bores seem to me to have all the performance and the advantage of the the factory cylinder design advantages. As Victory fans we will have to wait until Maw Vic makes a bigger motor with more meat to increase the bore or hope sales increase substantially that an aftermarket foundery sees a need to produce cases and juggss like the Harleys'. I was just wondering if the 110 could be built with a blower friendly cr since LLoyd has that blower thing coming out soon. Just think blown nikasil 110 on pump gas and 150-175 rwp. It could happen. |
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Cruiser
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The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | V92SC - 2013-01-10 6:03 PM
The linerless bores seem to me to have all the performance and the advantage of the the factory cylinder design advantages. As Victory fans we will have to wait until Maw Vic makes a bigger motor with more meat to increase the bore or hope sales increase substantially that an aftermarket foundery sees a need to produce cases and juggss like the Harleys'. I was just wondering if the 110 could be built with a blower friendly cr since LLoyd has that blower thing coming out soon. Just think blown nikasil 110 on pump gas and 150-175 rwp. It could happen.
Yes, it could happen! I have flattop pistons too which make 10.0 compression, ready for boost! You'll run out of stock injector at 140hp, but with aftermarket injectors, and some different rods and those numbers would be easy. |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI | kevinx - 2013-01-10 12:18 PM
cook06vegas - 2013-01-10 9:30 AM
WOW! Mine is really working good then huh? I have all the same mods as above minus the adjustable intake and the head work. Seems like the head work would have been a huge adavantage. I do have Lloyd's reflashed ECM though...
Mine made 121.6/128.8. Rylan, could you compare Kevin's dyno graph to yours and see where the differences are?
My dyno is usually spot on with the DJ dyno for horses, but it tends to be a tad generous in torque. Back to back. I bet the runs would look virtually the same. I am loving the NIKASIL 110 build. ??All the power, and none of the grief
I'm loving it too! Saturday it's suppose to be partly sunny and 55 here in mid MI. The FPD will be on the road, letting all 110 cubes and 120 horsies loose! HELL YEAH!!!
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Am I missing something ?? Are there problems with the larger bore kits that use cast iron liners ?? Or is it a cost thing?? I see sizes available in 114 and 116 cu in. Are these out of favor for some reason ? Thanks for any info................ |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | aThe 110's are linerless bores, like the OEM bores, and share the advantages that were engineered into the OEMs. Metals expan at different rates and that determines how close the tolerances can be set. Motrocycles have aluminum pistonswith steel rings that ride on aaluminum cylinder walls. AS heat builds in the engine the aluminum piston will expand at the same rate as the aluminum cylinder this allows for much tighter piston to cylinder wall tolerances which in turn allows benefits from decreased emissions, to less piston rocking, to cooler operating engine temps. It seems if the 106 is bored pass 2mm the cylinder block walls will be too thin to maintain structural integrity hence the need for a harder thinner metal sleeve. The iron sleeve will expand at a slower rate than the aluminum piston which means larger tolerances need to be engineered to allow
for the changes or the piton would seize in the bore. With tougher emission laws being enacted world wide all OEMs dropped the sleeved cylinders for the aluminum Nik |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Sorry this da#n Android is too sensitive. XRsteve I hope you get the jist of what I was trying to say. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yep, it came through, thanks for your response. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Just saw on Llowd's facebook page a 122" ( Elephant motor ) so called. If the displacement is correct and there is no stroker crank involved the bore would have to in excess of 108mm. The 116's bore is 105.28mm. Wonder how these things are constructed?? I thought the 116's bore was as big as you could go with stock cases....... |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
I've been wondering the same thing. I'm thinking it's done more with stroke. Probably the 116 bore with a stroked crank. I asked Scott but he didn't answer...
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yeah, I don't know anyone making stroker crank kits in excess of the 108mm kit. Falicon will make you any custom crank you want but it's BIG, BIG $$$$$$$$$$...........If S&S would, lets hope they come in sizes from 4 3/8ths up to 4 3/4..............Ha.........Make for monster engines. |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
Well, if someone is having something made that we don't know about, I wouldn't be suprised if it was Lloyd....
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Would be nice, the bore sizes are about played out with the deck width on the stock cases. AND even a 4 1/2" stroke engine it could be run to 6000 rpm with a piston speed of 4500 FPM. Hell, Harleys do that all the time EVEN with their inferior three piece crankshafts............And our 4 valve heads ported would fill the bigger engine just fine.......... |
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Tourer
Posts: 373
Lansing, MI |
I imagine we'll find out soon... |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | The stroke is stock at 108mm and the bore is 107.95mm. VERY close to a square engine.......... Very good combo if it is durable.......Large bore would also allow the use of the largest valves possible too if desired............GO LLoyd !!!! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | An engine with these demensions could be run to 6750rpm with a piston speed of "just" 4781fpm. That is safe for short bursts easily............ |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Jethro has been running a 122 for ar least one season. Makes 175HP detuned to not be a transmission destroyer. That thing can pretty much hot lap at the track |
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | I want, I want, I want... |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | I saw Jethro at the last Manufacturers Cup race in Valdosta and talked to him for a while. Bike was running OK he was having a little trouble shifting............He did tell me it was a 122 with a stock stroke. He was wishing for a stroker crank too.....................Can't remember his times, I believe he was running low 10's that day............ |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Guys 107+ mm bores are probably at the ragged edge the physical engineering limts of the stock cases even for racing. 122 or better would be what I'd want for racing but for a touring bike that the tyres currently available are rated at 130 mph sustained why would really need it. The current options on the table to increase the performance of the 106 are more than adequate to produce a tour d' force machine with at or near OEM reliability and durability. Short of some radical reengineering by Maw Vic the only thing out there with sport touring power and speed capable of humbling some older pure sport bikes is the BMW GTL1600. That bike comes with 17 in. wheels shod with the latest sport tour bike tyres available rated at 160mph. The down side its' riding position is more like a sport tourer and it really is a whole new class of bike I call the luxury sport tourer class. It is romured that in 2014 the GW will go to 2000cc and may get 17 in wheels with sport touring tyres. For my money I'll take a 110 with
10.8:1 compression,some basic head work, PC-V, Lloydz ecm,and start looking for some 17in wheels and sport touring tyresthat will fit my VV and have a packeage that looks and performs like it came from the future. JMHO. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I'll install cams this year, have it dyno'd and be happy. If I want anything faster I'll buy another rice rocket. I was on my way back from Memphis a few months ago and a couple a BMW GLT1600'S went past me like I was sitting still and I was touching 100. Plenty fast but the sitting position wasn't my idea of a touring bike. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | These giant bores ( 107.95mm ) might be a problem for street engines, we all want 100,000 + miles out of our top ends. For some real HP Lloyd already has a supercharger kit that works with our " little" ole 106ers and make plenty of power.......... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | V92SC - 2013-01-15 8:35 AM
It is romured that in 2014 the GW will go to 2000cc and may get 17 in wheels with sport touring tyres. JMHO.
That makes what, the seventh year in a row for that rumor?
Ronnie |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| rdbudd - 2013-01-15 1:14 PM V92SC - 2013-01-15 8:35 AM It is romured that in 2014 the GW will go to 2000cc and may get 17 in wheels with sport touring tyres. JMHO. That makes what, the seventh year in a row for that rumor? Ronnie My wing buddies are tired of hearing that rumor. |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Lloydz does have a Pricharger based super charger prototype setup for the X bikes now so don't laugh. He doesn't list it on his site for sale because there are a few things that need to be sorted out before he officially releases it. He can't afford to make the mistake MSD did when they released the multi spark coils for the GM LS series motors that some were selling with a plug n play harrness for Victorys. Come to find out that those coils were failure prone and no better than the OEM coils for hi performance. That one ill fated product drove many away from MSD good thing for tem they have a long history of and many other products that are standard bearers of the hi po aftermarket industry. Lloyd, on the other hand, is building a history and producing the products that we Vicowners are coming to have confidence that what ever he brings to market has the
quality, engineering, testing, and R&D work behind it that we all are coming to expect from Lloydz products. If Lloyd says its' coming rest assured that it will be like all of his current offeringsa product he can hang his reputation on.I really don't know what the GW boys are laughing at they keep waiting for a Vision like power windshield every year since 2008.
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | While it is true that the MSD coils were more for looks then performance on a mostly stock Vic motor. You have a couple of the more important facts wrong.
1] In our applications failures were/are extremely rare. Fact is I have heard of only a single failure, and the odds are good; it was owner inflicted.
2] MSD is not the people that made them available with a plug and play harness. That would be PMRT. PMRT is also the 1st to make a 122, First to supercharge a Vic, First to make a complete stand alone programmable ECM for Victory, First to make a real performance intake, First to make a true custom chip for Vics, First to make a true working lockup adjustable clutch for a Vic. The list goes on from there, but those are the things off the top of my head |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Thank you KevinX for those corrections. The MSD failure reports of the 8245 coils were reported by GM LS engined racers that reported that the coils failed while in service or DOA from the factory right out the box. I have never heard of or read a reported failure while in service on a Victory. As per the MSD site they no longer list LS style coils on the site. The reported failures seemed to be an engineering or manufactoring problem. I'm glad to know that none of your customers got any of the defective coils. I was already aware that the plug n play harness was not any MSD designed part and I had been beating the bushes for the harness because I got a couple of 8245 coils after the MC venders discontinued the MSD coil kits. I was doing this before I found out about the car racers coil failures and that MSD had discontinued making the coils. I was not trying to bad mouth the MC venders. I now knw why the kits disappeared fter the new year. I am just wondering , with all of the PMRT first why haven't they brought them to market similar to what Lloyd is doing. It would give owners another source and possibly accelerate product development. Two companies working to advance a single product line is always a plus for owners. Just saying. |
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Visionary
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | I checked out the PMRT website. Didn't know about them before. KevinX how good is PMRT's head porting ?? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | rdbudd - 2013-01-15 2:14 PM
V92SC - 2013-01-15 8:35 AM
It is romured that in 2014 the GW will go to 2000cc and may get 17 in wheels with sport touring tyres. JMHO.
That makes what, the seventh year in a row for that rumor?
Ronnie
You know what they say. 8th time's, the charm! :D |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | V92SC - 2013-01-15 9:46 PM
Thank you KevinX for those corrections. The MSD failure reports of the 8245 coils were reported by GM LS engined racers that reported that the coils failed while in service or DOA from the factory right out the box. I have never heard of or read a reported failure while in service on a Victory. As per the MSD site they no longer list LS style coils on the site. The reported failures seemed to be an engineering or manufactoring problem. I'm glad to know that none of your customers got any of the defective coils. I was already aware that the plug n play harness was not any MSD designed part and I had been beating the bushes for the harness because I got a couple of 8245 coils after the MC venders discontinued the MSD coil kits. I was doing this before I found out about the car racers coil failures and that MSD had discontinued making the coils. I was not trying to bad mouth the MC venders. I now knw why the kits disappeared fter the new year. I am just wondering , with all of the PMRT first why haven't they brought them to market similar to what Lloyd is doing. It would give owners another source and possibly accelerate product development. Two companies working to advance a single product line is always a plus for owners. Just saying.
PMRT is a one man operation owned and run by Dave Khoemsted. While he is very possibly the sharpest engineering, R&D, machinist, EE, builder I have ever had the opportunity to meet. He has a day job building tunnels around the country, and he is more at this as a hobby; then a profession. He has collaborated with Lloyd in the past, and I am sure he will/does still. He is among the best of the best, but not a real self promoter. |
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