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Tourer
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Vineland, NJ United States | Does anyone know what this does? What are pros and cons? Anyone tried it yet. http://www.lloydz.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1000125 |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | It lets you advance or retard the cam timing in relation to the crankshaft. This will allow you to move the torque curve produced by whatever cams you have up or down the RPM range. The net effect is to improve low end torque (advanced timing) at the expense of high end power, or improve top end power (retarded timing) at the expense of low end torque. You can move your torque curve up or down about 500 to 700 RPM. The torque curve itself won't change much--just the RPM range it works in.
I have not tried these on my Victory, but I've used adjustable timing gears on cars before. These work the same way.
Ronnie |
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Cruiser
Posts: 161
Tampa, Fl United States | edsasdelli - 2012-10-16 10:14 AM
Does anyone know what this does? What are pros and cons? Anyone tried it yet.? http://www.lloydz.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1000125 ? ?
Any feedback from any Visions that has it installed??
Is it worth the $$ if you have the following installed as in my signature?? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | With the gear set at 4 degrees advance; on my dyno I saw a shift of the torque curve of 700-1000 RPM to the left. Really wakes up the bottom end of this engine |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2012-10-17 8:28 AM
With the gear set at 4 degrees advance; on my dyno I saw a shift of the torque curve of 700-1000 RPM to the left. Really wakes up the bottom end of this engine
I really like the top end rush I get now with cams, intake, VFCIII, and Lloydz ECU. More bottom end would also be good, but I'm not complaining about what I have now, as it feels pretty much like it did before the mods. What does the top end look like now? I'm assuming it also moved left. Did the HP at 6400 RPM go down about 12 to 15 HP? I shift at 6000 when proving a point. More low end would be good, but I can't afford to lose anything at 6000.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Lost a whopping 2HP on the top, but that could also have been from running in a hotter part of the day |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kevinx - 2012-10-17 11:46 AM
Lost a whopping 2HP on the top, but that could also have been from running in a hotter part of the day
Any increased detonation or ping from doing this? Higher octane requirements?
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Turk - 2012-10-17 1:42 PM
kevinx - 2012-10-17 11:46 AM
Lost a whopping 2HP on the top, but that could also have been from running in a hotter part of the day
Any increased detonation or ping from doing this? Higher octane requirements?
Premium becomes a MUST with 4 degrees |
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Visionary
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Sand Rock, AL United States | so this adjustable timing system would be good for a Vision pulling a timeout camper trailer? |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2012-10-17 11:46 AM
Lost a whopping 2HP on the top, but that could also have been from running in a hotter part of the day
Sorry to belabor the point, but was that 2 HP loss at the peak or at 6400 RPM? I guess I'm specifically asking about the torque at 6000 RPM and the slope of the curve. That's what really matters in a race with a Goldwing. Right now, I've got a better torque curve than a Goldwing except for down below 2000 RPM, which doesn't matter in a race (and the differences down there aren't very much anyway). From 2500 on up to 6400, I've got them beat. In a dragrace with a Goldwing, the range between 3800 and 6000 is what matters due to the gearing of the two machines, the torque curves, and the RPM drops between gears.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Peak came at about 5600' and carried across just like stock timing. HP curve looked pretty much the same; just an RCH lower |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Thanks Kevin. Lloyd knows how to make parts that work and compliment each other. Now he's got another part that is on my wish list.
Ronnie |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kevinx - 2012-10-17 12:45 PM
Turk - 2012-10-17 1:42 PM
kevinx - 2012-10-17 11:46 AM
Lost a whopping 2HP on the top, but that could also have been from running in a hotter part of the day
Any increased detonation or ping from doing this? Higher octane requirements?
Premium becomes a MUST with 4 degrees
I already get a little bit of ping in the heat of summer, 6th gear, uphill, pushing a headwind, until I get to 3k rpm. I may have to pass on the timing gear advance. |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Hey Turk, care to elaborate on what performance mods you already have in place? I'm considering a warmed over 106 and this timing thing intrigues me. Can anyone here con firm or deny that Lloydz reflashed ECU has changes to the timing tables within? I have one and I suspect something with the timing tables was manipulated and in order to make an informed choice I would like < if confirmed, what ws done/ HELP! |
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Iron Butt
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Peru, IN | V92SC --- I'm guessing Turk was being sarcastic. Those conditions he described almost guarantee pinging on almost any bike. All he left out was "and pulling a trailer".  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Monkeyman - 2012-10-19 12:44 AM V92SC --- I'm guessing Turk was being sarcastic. Those conditions he described almost guarantee pinging on almost any bike. All he left out was "and pulling a trailer". I would hope he was. If not then learn to downshift. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| .. AND pulling a trailer! 
As for the 2500rpm restriction on using the timing tables in the PC-V, I don't recall seeing that anywhere. My PC-V lets me modify the same range of cells as in the fuel tables. However, having experimented a little, I've found that practically any ignition timing change is detrimental to the performance of the bike for daily driving. The timing gear, however, does intrigue me. It's not changing the ignition point in relation to piston travel, instead, it allows cylinder fill slightly earlier in the stroke.... so... should work pretty well depending on the current volumetric efficiency of the cams being used. Only one way to find out.... on a dyno !
Edited by Turk 2012-10-19 7:58 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Well, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that this gear was performing cam advance/retard. In actuality, it doesn't... It works by changing ignition timing. While some motors may respond well to timing changes... mine does not. |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Turk and gentlemen of this distinguish forum, maybe I didn't express myself clearly so let me try this again. As always any and all help regarding this matter is sincerely appreciated. My understanding is that the timing gear, attached to the crank, is in fact is for altering the cam timing altering the filling event of each cylinder. I was asking about possible changes in the ignition event timing whether it is massaged when Lloyd does the top speed limit removal and rev limiter points in each gear.Anybody got any solid info on that? Depending on what comes out the timing gear thing may be the perfect complimentary part to the cams and reflash ECM. Hmmmmmm!
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Turk and gentlemen of this distinguish forum, maybe I didn't express myself clearly so let me try this again. As always any and all help regarding this matter is sincerely appreciated. My understanding is that the timing gear, attached to the crank, is in fact is for altering the cam timing altering the filling event of each cylinder. I was asking about possible changes in the ignition event timing whether it is massaged when Lloyd does the top speed limit removal and rev limiter points in each gear.Anybody got any solid info on that? Depending on what comes out the timing gear thing may be the perfect complimentary part to the cams and reflash ECM. Hmmmmmm!
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The gear is not a gear. It is a reluctor wheel. The crank sensor looks at it to determin where TDC is. By adding this part you can trick the ECM into firing the plugs, AND injectors; up to four degrees early or late. It is the perfect compliment to a cammed Vic
EDIT: on bikes with ECM from Lloydz. I have found 2 degrees of advance is key with the adjustable unit
Edited by kevinx 2012-10-20 6:10 AM
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Visionary
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | So, this does nothing to alter the movement of the valves in comparison to TDC, just the ignition timing?
If the PCV will do the same at all RPM's, would this be of any benefit?
Has anyone confirmed the 2500 RPM PCV limit?
Does the PCV control both injector timing and ignition timing?
Can the PCV be set for advanced timing at low RPMs for low end torque and retarded timing at high RPMs for high end torque?
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-12-01 10:16 PM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nozzledog - 2012-12-01 11:13 PM
So, this does nothing to alter the movement of the valves in comparison to TDC, just the ignition timing?
If the PCV will do the same at all RPM's, would this be of any benefit?
Has anyone confirmed the 2500 RPM PCV limit?
Does the PCV control both injector timing and ignition timing?
Can the PCV be set for advanced timing at low RPMs for low end torque and retarded timing at high RPMs for high end torque?
Changes the ignition timing AND the fuel timing. Allows a solid advance without the side effects of higher cumbustion temps and preignition common with simply adavancing the ignition
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Visionary
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | The ATW changes the ignition AND fuel timing. Got it.
Does the PCV change both? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| kevinx - 2012-12-02 1:31 PM
Changes the ignition timing AND the fuel timing. Allows a solid advance without the side effects of higher cumbustion temps and preignition common with simply adavancing the ignition
I could use some help understanding what is going on here. I understand that fuel is injected upstream of the intake valves. If that is the case what difference would it make if its injected a few degrees ahead of the factory setting when the intake valve opening determines when it will be ingested into the combustion chamber anyway? If this was a direct injection system like a diesel it would be understandable. Obviously I'm missing something important.
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Atomization is optimized with the advanced timing. Intake valve is well open before a shot of fuel enters |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| kevinx - 2012-12-02 3:47 PM
Atomization is optimized with the advanced timing. Intake valve is well open before a shot of fuel entersDoes the factory not use this improved timing due to emissions? So it richens it up?
Thanks for the explanation. I've been looking on the internet but I can't find any discussion yet about advanced fuel injection timing in anything besides diesels. I'll keep looking. Obviously if it work on a bike it must be something commonly done in the car world.
Marc |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | marcparnes - 2012-12-02 8:15 PM
kevinx - 2012-12-02 3:47 PM
Atomization is optimized with the advanced timing. Intake valve is well open before a shot of fuel entersDoes the factory not use this improved timing due to emissions? So it richens it up?
Thanks for the explanation. I've been looking on the internet but I can't find any discussion yet about advanced fuel injection timing in anything besides diesels. I'll keep looking. Obviously if it work on a bike it must be something commonly done in the car world.
Marc
ECM in your basic econobox is in the area of 20 times faster, and more powerful then in a Victory. What we have is closer to a 1973 Super Beetle. The car is able to advance and retard fuel timing based on temps, load, mixture, and knock sensor; all by itself. |
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Iron Butt
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| kevinx - 2012-12-03 5:50 AM marcparnes - 2012-12-02 8:15 PM kevinx - 2012-12-02 3:47 PM Atomization is optimized with the advanced timing. Intake valve is well open before a shot of fuel entersDoes the factory not use this improved timing due to emissions? So it richens it up? Thanks for the explanation. I've been looking on the internet but I can't find any discussion yet about advanced fuel injection timing in anything besides diesels. I'll keep looking. Obviously if it work on a bike it must be something commonly done in the car world. Marc ECM in your basic econobox is in the area of 20 times faster, and more powerful then in a Victory. What we have is closer to a 1973 Super Beetle. The car is able to advance and retard fuel timing based on temps, load, mixture, and knock sensor; all by itself. A comforting thought ............... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nothing wrong with a slightly stupid ECM. As long as it works[which it does] and reliable[which it is] |
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Tourer
Posts: 309
Vineland, NJ United States | I installed the ATS set to +4, bike runs strong however I wanted to throw this observation out and see what you guys think. This past weekend, I went on 3 day trip with passenger, bike was loaded to gills with "stuff". On really heavy acceleration I would hear pinging from under the radio console from engine area. Is that anything to worry about? am I doing damage? should I turn it back to +2....what do you think? |
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Visionary
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| southjerseyrider - 2013-05-31 4:25 PM I installed the ATS set to +4, bike runs strong however I wanted to throw this observation out and see what you guys think. This past weekend, I went on 3 day trip with passenger, bike was loaded to gills with "stuff". On really heavy acceleration I would hear pinging from under the radio console from engine area. Is that anything to worry about? am I doing damage? should I turn it back to +2....what do you think? pinging is not good where do you have your fuler set for high rpms. 4 degres seams pretty normal. Did you reset your fuler after the the timing wheel was instaled |
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Tourer
Posts: 309
Vineland, NJ United States | I did not reset the VFC III, it is still set from installation of cams & intake. I never messed with it since installed by Vic mechanic. But it didn't ping before I installed ATS or at least I never noticed it if it did? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | If you're pinging down shift at least one gear or you will be doing damage.
I have the ATW and the no good for nothing PCV with Auto Tune and I set my ignition timing at -1 at 2500rpm's and then -2 above that all the way to 6250 rpm and I haven't heard the pinging since. Runs strong. |
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Tourer
Posts: 324
New Orleans, La, | Diamondbird I'm confused by your post. You say you have the ATW installed at 4+ degrees and the PCV and you set the timing at -1 below 2500 and -2 from2500 to redline? How and why did you do that. Also do you or do you not have Lloydz massaged ECM? I asked because I'm looking at doing the ATW and intake stacks and I already have thhe cams, Lloydz ecm and VFC III, and top filter and trying to get all the info I can so I can make an informed decision. Thanx guys for all of your discussio this is great and does influence my choices. |
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Cruiser
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Mechanicsville, VA United States | V92SC, Not all bikes can take +4 timing as mine was pinging so I reduced the timing with the PCV, you set the ATW at +4 and with your computer you can make changes to the ignition timing with the PCV.......The PCV will not make ignition timing changes below 2500 rpms I am told,my ECM is stock. I think you will need someone to dyno your bike to get the right size Stacks installed. |
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Tourer
Posts: 309
Vineland, NJ United States | Just an update. This morning I turned the ATS from +4 to +2 and then took a 100 mile ride (with passenger), put bike thru the ringer and got no pinging or engine noises at all. So not sure if the +2 is actually doing anything over stock, but the bike runs good now and no more pinging so I'll leave it for now. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| if you had fuller set on one setting and then put in the gear and advance that by 4 degrees it only makes cents you would have to change fuller cause your motor is now 4 dredges more then stock so now you have to change fuller |
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Lloyds Adjustable Timing System