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Land O Lakes, FL | I have to say the Vics performance is great. Quite a little powerhouse for a Twin. My buddy has an 11 Road Glide Ultra and since we are both old school racers we always end up racing each other (closed road in Mexico) no matter what we have. Just good ol fashion friendly competition.
When his HD was stock we lined them up and it was the Vic hands down without trying. Then he got screaming eagle exhaust (which sounds great), k&N filter, screaming eagle air box thing, and stage 1 tune from HD ($1000). Again the Vic could pull away but he was much closer. Not even thinking about performance I drilled the baffles out of my exhaust for some more sound ($20) and a nice side effect was it really woke the big Vic up, enough so that I handily pulled away again. Well now that pissed him off so got a gutted cat and had some cams thrown in along with a retune this week (another $1500) and showed up at my house with a big smile. I took the HD for a spin and it really does run great. made good numbers about 82hp/96tq 51% humidity. Not to bad for a 103ci engine.
Well we rolled out for a short ride (same road in mexico) and did a nice roll on... Once again, to his disappointment the big Vic pulled him, of course a much smaller margin to about 60, he's right there, after that the Vic starts to open the lead and he's about 2 bike lengths or so behind me. I think if I had the trunk on it would be a touch closer but up top the Vic still pulls the HD. Roll on from 2k rpm in 6th gear and the Vic steadily pulls away. If he gets a bit of a jump we stay pretty close, win to the Vic still though. He could never come around no matter what we tried.
He was still happy but disappointed. His comment was $2500 and I'm now as quick as a stock Victory, oh yeah lol.
Now I'm NOT HD bashing his bike is very very nice and the exhaust and the sound system are stellar as is the ride but after riding them back to back I still prefer my Victory. It's just right for me...
Anyway thought you guys might like to know how we stack up against the biggest competitor. Of course I don't ride the Vic for speed (though ima junkie I admit) that's why I also have a new ZX-14R. When I want to go fast I start that monster. Talk about scary, whahoo!
Edited by PhantomX 2012-09-19 10:04 PM
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New Bohemia, VA | A die-hard Harley rider I work with says its not about going fast, it's about the sound. |
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Iron Butt
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| It's about the sound only after you outrun a HD. |
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New Bohemia, VA | this guy rides like 3 times a year, believes Harley is the only motorcycle and doesn't even like to discuss anything if you don't ride a Harley. So, it is what it is to him. |
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Iron Butt
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| varyder - 2012-09-20 6:52 AM this guy rides like 3 times a year, believes Harley is the only motorcycle and doesn't even like to discuss anything if you don't ride a Harley. So, it is what it is to him. I'm thinking most of us know people like that. |
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Land O Lakes, FL | I know I've met a few, my buddy however isn't one of them. He did a lot of research and for what he likes he bought the Harley, I too think it's a great bike and wouldn't mind owning one someday (love the CVO's). His style and what he wants vs what I want are different. The Vision is very precise the Harley is like a big couch, the Vision is a bit narrower and shorter to the ground vs the HD as well and I'm a short guy so I like that. They are both great machines that serve a similar purpose but take a different approach to getting there. We've both owned just about every major manufacturer out there so we spread the love... |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | varyder - 2012-09-20 1:19 AM
A die-hard Harley rider I work with says its not about going fast, it's about the sound.
It's hard to hear the HD when it's so far behind me.  |
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Troy, NY | My buddy rides a Harley Rocker. We were at a stop light on a straight away and we do the look and rev the engines. I had is little brother riding with me.....so I was 2 up. His Harley has a PC with upgrade exhaust and filter. We like some already said....I couldn't hear his exhaust because he was behind me - lol!!! I took this same buddy to the Victory Demo ride recently. He is not a Vision rider yet....but he loved the Cross Country. I think next year he is a Victory owner. |
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Land O Lakes, FL | Wow with all those mods you should have easily "rocked his rocker" lol... |
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Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | Ain't NO hopped up Harley EVER come near being as fast as me - and I almost ALWAYS have Co-Pilot on board when they try. Two of my pals have HD's with over $10,000 in mods to their engines - and CAN'T beat me - riding solo - while I have filled luggage and Co-Pilot aboard. As I approach my 70th birthday - I fear NO Harley. I used to whoop 'em with my 750 Virago - and can sure as hell do it with my KevinXinated Vision. |
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New Mexico | Last night on the way home about midnight I saw a group of 8-10 crotch rockets in front of me on the highway. Speeding, buzzing in and out of traffic, but not super annoying/unsafe like some groups. I was doing 70 in a 60, and they were probably doing 80.
We exited and I caught up with them at a red light, pulling in behind their group at a respectful distance. The light turned green and those sewing machine engines cranked up to 8K rpm in seconds, but I grabbed some throttle and kept right with them. Headed into a desolate high-desert area where it gets curvy and the speed drops to 35. They were still doing 80, and I still kept right there through it all. Was a lot of fun!
At the next light most of them went through, but 3 got left so I pulled up behind them. They all turned around and waved, but looked surprised to see a 50 year old fat guy on a 900lb bike keeping up with them :-)
They really put the pedal to the metal pulling away from the light, and again, I was right there with them. At the next light the rest of the riders were waiting for them, and as I veered off to head home the whole group was waving a hearty goodbye.
This is one FUN bike! And at 38k miles it is good to know I have AT LEAST 87,000 more miles to enjoy
(thanks to VaRyder's durability testing!).
Edited by Boots 2012-09-21 10:11 AM
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New Bohemia, VA | smoothness, torque and roll-on for me is excellent on the Vision. I was on my way home Thursday and we have the Million-Dollar mile (look it up with Hopewell, Va in the search criteria) and was doing more than I normally do through that stretch. Sure enough, there they sat, so when I checked my speed I couldn't believe how fast I was going. I was already rolling off, but when I got beside him, he hit the blue light. But, I think it was only a warning, or got someone else, as I never saw him behind me. The Bentley is bone stock, but she's never disappointed me any to justify any upgrade.
Edited by varyder 2012-09-21 11:00 AM
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Peru, IN | PhantomX - 2012-09-19 11:00 PM
Anyway thought you guys might like to know how we stack up against the biggest competitor.
We have a competitor? Puhleese. |
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Grand Cane, LA | I haven't seen the new '13 Harleys but we may have some competition this year. The new CVO line has been bumped up to a 110" motor that has similar specs. as our Visions. Can't wait to see one run, but I bet I can still wax their a** in a drag race. Most Harley riders I know can't ride worth a flip. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | A stock 110" SE HD aint gonna keep up with a stock Victory, either a Vision or CC. A Stock SE 110" makes about 80 HP and a Victory makes about 85. Now if they spend $2000.00 on ported heads AND a matching cam AND a PC V AND a bigger throttle body AND a good 2-1 exhaust, it could make 115 HP, but hell a 106" Freedom Engine with just a small cam, slip on pipes and a fuel controller will make that much for about $5000.00 less......... |
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| Good luck finding HD ported heads,cams PCV,throttle body and exhaust for 2k. |
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| I just love reading this stuff!.......Oh and I don't hesitate to pass a hd that is toading the lane. |
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So Cal | It's in the heads. 4 valve Vic heads will out flow any 2 valve HD heads. Especially at higher rpms |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | I meant $2000.00 just for the heads.......... 
Edited by XRsteve 2012-09-21 9:51 PM
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Jasper, MO | cjnoho - 2012-09-21 7:59 PM
It's in the heads. 4 valve Vic heads will out flow any 2 valve HD heads. Especially at higher rpms
You're exactly right. It's not just the HD 110 that the Victory 106 beats either. The other competitor to the Vision is the Honda 112 (GL1800 Goldwing) that is also a 2 valve head and the power reaches about 100 HP at 5200 RPM and then drops back below 100 HP at 5600 RPM on that motor (400 RPM wide) while a Victory 106 with Lloydz cams and ECU produces power over 100 HP at 5000 RPM all the way to the 6400 RPM rev limit (1400 RPM wide). It's not just the peak numbers that determine the overall performance, but the width of the torque curve. The 4 valve Victory motor typically has a power band 500 to 1000 RPM wider than either the 2 valve HD or the 2 valve Honda, which more than makes up for the smaller displacement of the Victory. It's not all just at high RPMs either. The GL1800 makes torque in the 100FT/LBs range from 2600 RPM to 5200 RPM, dropping to about 75 FT/LBs at 6000 RPM, while the Lloydz Victory 106 makes torque in the 100 FT/LBs range from 2600 RPM to 5600 RPM, dropping to about 81 or 82 FT/LBs at 6000 RPM.
There is, or was, a Power Commander for the Goldwing, but adding it didn't gain more than 1 or 1 1/2 horsepower. Aftermarket exhausts gained the GW about the same amount. The 2 valve heads limit the GW.
When Suzuki went from 2 valves to four valves on the GS1100 30 some years ago, they gained 20 horsepower with the same displacement and rev limit. The rest of the basic motor was very similar--intakes, exhaust, etc. It was all in the cylinder head design.
Ronnie |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Correct: Heads along with matching cams do controll airflow thus power levels and 4 valve heads ARE superior. A very carefully crafted set of two valve ports with matched cams or cam and correct valve sizes can flow as much PEAK air as a 4 valve design BUT they can't sustain that airflow over a wide rpm range. That's why most "stepped on" Harleys have a torque curve that looks like a bell and 4 valve head engine like our Victory engines have a much flatter torque curve. The duration of the cam can move that tq curve one way or another on the rpm scale but that causes it's own set of problems............ |
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Jasper, MO | Right again. That is why moving the rev limit on the Victory 106 up to 6400 RPM is of such benefit, even though the peak numbers don't change much. It lets the motor stay in the fat part of the power band longer in each gear, resulting in better performance.
Case in point--my Lloydz equipped Vision basically became an even match, overall, in performance with GL1800 Goldwings when I still had the stock 5500 RPM rev limit. Quarter mile times were similar (IF I didn't bang into that 5500 limiter, which killed the times), the Vision was a little faster in roll-ons, and the Golding could take the Vision on top end speed because of the 120 MPH ECU limit on the Vision. After the simple addition of the Lloydz ECU, my Vision is now quicker than the GW in the quarter mile, by better than a 1/4 second, and faster in the quarter mile by 4 MPH. It is still faster in roll-ons and is now quite a bit faster on top end speed than the GW.
The four valve Victory has the potential of a wider power band than the Goldwing, but if you retain the stock rev limit, you never get to use it and you give up a lot of performance.
After our local Harley riding friends heard about my Vision whupping the GWs, they aren't interested in trying to run it. They might have similar peak numbers, but their power band is even more narrow than the Honda's.
Honda advertises 128 horsepower (crank) for the Goldwing, which is a number that my buddy likes to quote when around the Harleys.
Most people think I have higher numbers than I actually do, based on how the bike runs, because they don't understand the relationship between the width of the power band and performance. They tend to focus on peak numbers. Some are totally convinced in their own minds that I "must have 130 HP because their dyno sheet shows their bike at 115 HP and the Vision is faster". Based on quarter mile times, I'm around 110 horsepower at the wheel. The wider power band makes the difference.
Ronnie |
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| Interesting discussion.
My bone stock Vision was dyno'ed a couple of years ago.
It peaked at a bit above 100 TQ but the "curve" was flat as a pancake through the useable range. It peaked early and stayed late.
HP was in the mid 80s.
I have no complaints about the Vision stock 106 performance. At 2-up witth a full load of luggage we have no trouble getting going. |
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Iron Butt
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| A friend of mine recenty picked up a new HD ultra with 255 cams,stage two flash and thunderheader exhaust. Still no contest although I do like the sound of his exhaust. He's convinced I have cams and I wish I did. |
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Gilroy, Ca | My uncle has an 07 street glide with intake, exhaust and pc and my 12 VV just blows him away every time
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Rhode Island | Kyle at KMC put some of Lloyds magic parts on and with stock exhaust torque jumps to 108 at 2100rpm and levels off at 111 all the way to 5200rpm I think my HP peaked at 106. Running down and old 2 lane with a very slow pickup in front of me and a Dyna parked right on my rear tire, 1st straight section both pulled out to pass before I got out of 3rd he was falling back when I hit 5th he was nowhere to be seen. 10min later he pulled up next to me at a light; first words were what you got in that thing. I saw Screaming Eagle on everything so I had to toy with him a bit and responded all stock and I pulled away smiling to myself.
Jim
Edited by RhodeTrip 2012-10-25 4:57 AM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | RhodeTrip - 2012-10-25 5:56 AM
Kyle at KMC put some of Lloyds magic parts on and with stock exhaust torque jumps to 108 at 2100rpm and levels off at 111 all the way to 5200rpm I think my HP peaked at 106. Running down and old 2 lane with a very slow pickup in front of me and a Dyna parked right on my rear tire, 1st straight section both pulled out to pass before I got out of 3rd he was falling back when I hit 5th he was nowhere to be seen. 10min later he pulled up next to me at a light; first words were what you got in that thing. I saw Screaming Eagle on everything so I had to toy with him a bit and responded all stock and I pulled away smiling to myself.
Jim
The line is.......
"Damn...I don't know. She's pretty much stock, but the pipes.....Must'a been built on a Wednesday" |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yeah I do that all the time. 115.5 HP and 117.3 Tq. It's fun ain't it ??? |
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Iron Butt
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Mt. Vernon, WASH. | Just a question since I don't recall ever seeing it posted here, but has anyone run their VISION down a drag strip? What are ballpark E.T.s/MPH? 
Edited by SYNSTR 2012-10-25 4:57 PM
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Gilroy, Ca | Damn Steve what do you have in that beast |
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| A friend has a 05 road glide with bid bore and one cam cvo air cleaner and a kuryakyn fuel tuner and he dynoed out at 95 hp with 100 torque.
All of that was just oever 2500 bucks. Me 2 air cleaners and S1's reworked and I can pull him just fine. I spent a 200 bucks
Think about this. With one air cleaner behind headlight how does it get air or even the one under the dash. We have a great motor for sure |
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Jasper, MO | SYNSTR - 2012-10-25 4:56 PM
Just a question since I don't recall ever seeing it posted here, but has anyone run their VISION down a drag strip? What are ballpark E.T.s/MPH?
Box stock will be in the neighborhood of 13.25 @ 98 MPH. Stock with just VM1 cams, intake filter and fuel controller, and Lloydz ECU (stock exhaust) gets you to 12.40s to 12.60s @ 105 MPH. Mine ran several 12.60s @ 105 on a cold track that had NOT been prepped with traction compound (Friday night grudge races) and I had some wheel spin off the line, similar to street conditions. I could only manage 1.80 60 foot times. A sticky track would have produced quicker times, probably 12.40s. I had junk in the trunk and weighed 1100 pounds. It got lots of attention from the other V-Twin bagger/touring bike riders and since my bike looks and sounds 100% stock, that's what I told them. The line is "Hey man, that's just how these Victorys run. Look at it. Listen to it. It doesn't even have pipes. She's stock."
Then I told them that Visions with Lloydz 116 motors are running 11.60s @ 112 MPH, which is the truth.
The GL1800 Goldwing that was there that night was running 13.05s - 13.15s @ 99- 100 MPH. He pulled off a single run of 12.91 @ 101 MPH, but couldn't back it up with another that quick. I've got all the timecards from the GW from that night since he lined up against me on every run, sure that his 1832cc 6 cylinder bike would shame my 1731cc V-Twin bike. We had a steak dinner bet on it. Mine tasted real good, while his seemed to taste like crow.
Some posted Vision times on DragTimes http://www.dragtimes.com/Victory--Vision-Drag-Racing.html
Goldwing on DragTimes http://www.dragtimes.com/Honda-Gold-Wing-Timeslip-12820.html
None of those times on DragTimes are us, but Carl and Lloyd are represented.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-25 8:42 PM
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Iron Butt
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| A friend of mine just bought a 2012 HD Ultra. Put in 255 cams, stage 2 kit and exhaust. Smiled like a cat eating a canary when he told me this,said I wouldn't stand a chance as the Harley dealer told him he would putting 110 hp on the ground. I didn't say a word but I did outrun him and fairly easily. He swears I've been into the motor. |
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Visionary
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New Bohemia, VA | Strange, most of the Harley people I know say it's not about horsepower and speed, but then they can't tell me what it's really about. So I guess I just don't know... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I assure you most Harley people would love more horsepower,they simply know the cost and don't want to spend the money. I don't blame them.
Edited by kris1956 2012-10-26 6:21 AM
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Mt. Vernon, WASH. | rdbud,
Thank you for providing a direct answer to a direct question, and your real world experiences pretty much confirm my seat of the pants estimates and guesses. I really wanted to know about the VISION times/speeds.
I don't care about Milwaukee Middle busters other than to hope that NHRA changes specs to stop V&H from owning PRO BIKE which is becoming what PRO STOCK was a few years ago, an opportunity to visit the blue room and tour the fuel pits, in other words --BORING. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | PC-V, VM-1 cams, Lloyds top filter, CFR slip on pipes and tuned by Lloyd down in Daytona got me the 115.5 HP and 117.3 TQ.
Edited by XRsteve 2012-10-26 8:18 AM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2012-10-26 6:37 AM
A friend of mine just bought a 2012 HD Ultra. Put in 255 cams, stage 2 kit and exhaust. Smiled like a cat eating a canary when he told me this,said I wouldn't stand a chance as the Harley dealer told him he would putting 110 hp on the ground. I didn't say a word but I did outrun him and fairly easily. He swears I've been into the motor.
Just tuned a bike with a very similar set up. His original exhaust had him at 95/107. Changing to a thunder header moved him to 107/112. So he may be a bit stronger then you think |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2012-10-26 9:05 AM
kris1956 - 2012-10-26 6:37 AM
A friend of mine just bought a 2012 HD Ultra. Put in 255 cams, stage 2 kit and exhaust. Smiled like a cat eating a canary when he told me this,said I wouldn't stand a chance as the Harley dealer told him he would putting 110 hp on the ground. I didn't say a word but I did outrun him and fairly easily. He swears I've been into the motor.
Just tuned a bike with a very similar set up. His original exhaust had him at 95/107. Changing to a thunder header moved him to 107/112. So he may be a bit stronger then you think
I like to be informed when bench racing. Peak numbers are one thing, power bands are another. What does the torque curve look like on that thing? At what RPMs does it cross over and back below 100 FT/LBs? What's his rev limit?
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-26 11:02 AM
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | You guys crack me up. If you realy want HP. top speed and performance, get a Busa or a Busa Killer. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | ..
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-10-27 9:53 AM
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Jasper, MO | MaddMAx2u - 2012-10-27 9:52 AM
You guys crack me up. If you realy want HP. top speed and performance, get a Busa or a Busa Killer.
You don't get it. We've been there, done that. Now all of us aging former crotch rocket riders ride baggers and tourers, but we still have the old competitive spirit. We have just as much fun at half the speed and are a lot more comfortable while doing it.
I built and raced drag bikes in my younger days, as did some of my friends. My Goldwing riding buddy and I even owned a dyno together. We were quite successful at it and lived on the dragstrip for several years. Now, we like to go places, but we still have to see who can beat who sometimes. Keeps the blood circulating. BTW, the Goldwing rider you see me mention from time to time still has a 9.90 class Suzuki. Is that fast enough? He rides his Goldwing pretty good too. He took second place at the all bike drags last year on that Goldwing, by virtue of breaking out in the final round. His Suzuki was down so he took the Goldwing. (ET racing). I sold all my fast stuff. Been there, done that.
Ronnie. |
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Columbus, Ga | Im the type of guy that likes driving a Lincoln Towncar that will run low 10's at the strip while listening to the stereo and sipping on a slurpee. Thats why I love my vision. Comfort and power. |
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Lansing, MI | eagle - 2012-10-28 4:04 PM
Im the type of guy that likes driving a Lincoln Towncar that will run low 10's at the strip while listening to the stereo and sipping on a slurpee. Thats why I love my vision. Comfort and power.
HA HA! That gave me a great image in my head! HA HA HA HA!!!! 
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Gilroy, Ca | I just like being faster than the hd guys on my land yacht |
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| kevinx - 2012-10-26 9:05 AM kris1956 - 2012-10-26 6:37 AM A friend of mine just bought a 2012 HD Ultra. Put in 255 cams, stage 2 kit and exhaust. Smiled like a cat eating a canary when he told me this,said I wouldn't stand a chance as the Harley dealer told him he would putting 110 hp on the ground. I didn't say a word but I did outrun him and fairly easily. He swears I've been into the motor. Just tuned a bike with a very similar set up. His original exhaust had him at 95/107. Changing to a thunder header moved him to 107/112. So he may be a bit stronger then you think He is running Thunderheader exhaust. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | rdbudd - 2012-10-26 12:00 PM
kevinx - 2012-10-26 9:05 AM
kris1956 - 2012-10-26 6:37 AM
A friend of mine just bought a 2012 HD Ultra. Put in 255 cams, stage 2 kit and exhaust. Smiled like a cat eating a canary when he told me this,said I wouldn't stand a chance as the Harley dealer told him he would putting 110 hp on the ground. I didn't say a word but I did outrun him and fairly easily. He swears I've been into the motor.
Just tuned a bike with a very similar set up. His original exhaust had him at 95/107. Changing to a thunder header moved him to 107/112. So he may be a bit stronger then you think
I like to be informed when bench racing. Peak numbers are one thing, power bands are another. What does the torque curve look like on that thing? At what RPMs does it cross over and back below 100 FT/LBs? What's his rev limit?
Ronnie
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K |
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Jasper, MO | Thanks Kevin. That's about what I expected. Given the gearing and the RPM drops between shifts, that 110 horsepower Harley will be no match for a 110 horsepower Victory in a drag race. The Harley will be out of its powerband after the 1-2 shift, if shifted at 5500 or 6000 RPM. I'll bet it's lots of fun just putting around on though. Passing 55 MPH traffic in 5th gear up to about 85 MPH, probably feels pretty good on it too.
Ronnie |
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Peru, IN | kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D ) |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 1:07 AM
kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D )
Not gonna happen with a 4 valve motor, unless you up the compression. |
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Georgia, west of Atlanta | Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. |
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Iron Butt
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Peru, IN | kevinx - 2012-10-30 7:14 AM
Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 1:07 AM
kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D )
Not gonna happen with a 4 valve motor, unless you up the compression.
Hmmm... Ok. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done |
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Jasper, MO | Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 12:07 AM
kevinx - 2012-10-29 11:57 AM
Thing is a BRUTE across the bottom, but starts falling apart at 4200. Down to about 80FtLb when it hits the limiter at 6K
That's what I want. All the power down low. My last 3 or 4 bikes have had a higher rpm powerband (like the Vision) and I still can't get used to it. (Probably some sort of mental issue. :D )
I don't understand that kind of thinking. Why do you want to limit the powerband to just the lower end? Why not have it all, top and bottom?
Here are three dyno charts. Torque, multiplied by gearing, applied to the wheel, is what accelerates the bike. The longer the torque lasts in each gear, the higher the average acceleration force, and the faster you accelerate. Shifting to the next higher gear reduces the applied torque at the wheel, so a bike with a narrower powerband is at a disadvantage in a drag race.
The first is a 2012 Harley 103 inch FLD that has had cams, pipes, and tuner added. The chart is in STD and the numbers are about 4% high when compared to the next two, which are in SAE. You have to compare apples to apples, not oranges. So, the 95.71 HP and 109.70 TQ translates to 91.88 HP and 105.31 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2800 RPM to 4800 RPM spanning 2000 RPM.
The second is a GL1800 Goldwing (112 inch) which produced 97.67 HP and 103.69 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2700 RPM to 5200 RPM spanning 2500 RPM.
The third is a Lloydz cammed, stock exhaust Vision. It produced 110.42 HP and 106.53 TQ. The meaty part of the powerband runs from 2700 RPM to 5700 RPM, spanning 3000 RPM.
You want to guess which bike is the fastest down the quarter mile and the fastest around slow moving traffic?
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-30 12:15 PM
(230910d1328615777-103-stock-motor-dyno-results-dyno-2012-fld.jpg)
(03_GL1800.jpg)
(Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg)
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 230910d1328615777-103-stock-motor-dyno-results-dyno-2012-fld.jpg (92KB - 2 downloads)
03_GL1800.jpg (84KB - 2 downloads)
Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg (26KB - 4 downloads)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | I guess I figured there was only 1 range I could get hp/torque at. Either high, middle or low rpms. I wasn't aware I could get torque in all 3 areas. My goal over the winter will be intake(s), tuner and pipes. Next year (depending on whether or not I really care about my warranty), will be cams.
I'd like more power straight off of idle (or as close to it as I can get with a Victory v twin). Mid range would be my next choice. I don't care about racing but being able to roll on the throttle from riding speeds (maybe 35-65?) and having chest pounding torque would be nice. Around here, I ride on a lot of 2 lanes so being able to pass without worry is definitely an added plus.
I'm not a mechanic by any means so I don't really understand all of the hows and whys. I read what I can but it doesn't tend to sink in. :shrug: I'll end up with whatever Lloyd or Rylan tell me to add. What I've got so far is filters, tuner, pipes and cams will flatten my eye balls. And all for less than about $1500 installed. That may very well be enough for me. I'm coming off a bike that had at least 25 hp less than what I have now (and pretty close to the same weight) so in bone stock form, the Vision is impressive already.
I appreciate the schooling. Knowledge is power. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Chris, compare the chart for the Goldwing, which has had the reputation for being a torque monster in all RPM ranges ever since the GL1800 came out (deservedly so), to the chart for the Lloydz equipped Vision. The Vision matches the GL1800's power all the way up from the bottom, but then surpasses it at the high end (4 valve hemi motor). There are some gearing differences between the two,with the Goldwing being geared about 4 1/2% lower in 1st gear than the Vision. This makes it "feel stronger" in 1st gear than the Vision when the power is actually about the same. You can accomplish exactly the same thing by putting an underdrive pulley on your Vision, that is, it will "feel like" it has more low end power.
Unless you are thinking of changing pipes to get a different sound, the money you would spend on pipes would be far better spent on Lloydz VM1-DR cams. The chart I posted is with stock exhaust. It isn't restrictive--just quiet. Aftermarket exhausts cost a lot of money and do little to nothing for performance on stock block motors, overall (compare the top and bottom numbers). The best bang for the dollar is cams, intake, VFCIII, and Lloydz ECU. Lots of people also use a PCV instead of the VFCIII. I decided on the VFCIII because it does the job just fine on a stock block motor and the difference in price between it and the PCV with Autotune paid for Lloydz ECU. Lloydz ECU has optimized timing curves, which aids the low end torque, and a 6400 RPM rev-limiter in all 6 gears. Once you get the cams,intake, and fuel control, you will quickly realize that you need a raised rev-limiter because the stock 5500 RPM comes up so quickly (5250 in 1st gear) and the bike is still pulling hard when you hit it, unlike the stock setup which is finished pulling before 5000 RPM.
I spent $1295 for cams, intake, VFCIII, Lloydz ECU, and labor, keeping my stock exhaust. The bike looks and sounds 100% stock and runs 12.60s @ 105 MPH and tops out well over 130 MPH and gets about the same, or better fuel economy than before. If I'm riding with GL1800s and we come up on a slow truck on a two lane road we need to pass, and we're both in 5th gear, and we both pull out to pass at the same time with the throttles wide open, I can pass the Goldwing and the truck at the same time. How's that for low, mid , and top end power? The Harley has very similar peak torque numbers to both the Goldwing and the Vision, (they're all within a couple of points of each other) but it's power is "all down low" and it gets left in the dust. The Vision's low end is the equal of the Goldwing, but it has a better mid-range and top end.
It's been a few years and the prices have increased a bit, but you should be able to duplicate the chart for the Vision for $1500 including the labor.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-10-31 10:25 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Thanks, Ronnie. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'll add pipes only to change the sound. I don't want anything really loud but something more then the stock sewing machine sound. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | You're welcome Chris. Definitely follow Lloyd's, or Rylan's, or Kevin's advice. They've got this stuff down pat. If you think you will ever go to the cams and Lloydz ECU, just skip right over any of the Stage 1 or 2 stuff.
BTW, I'm running the stock Victory front filter with Lloydz top filter. The top filter adds plenty of breathing.
You're about 8 hours from Rylan. He has been known to do house calls, especially if he can get a few bikes together in one place at the same time to work on. Alternatively, you could ride over to his place, spend the night in town, get to his shop early the next day and be home before dark with a 25% to 30% power increase in your bike. I highly recommend Rylan's work. The Lloydz ECU is a plug and play that you can easily do yourself, but you'll need to send yours to Lloyd to be reprogrammed, and it takes about two weeks to get it back. Maybe something to do when the snow is deep. You can do it before or after the cams, but you won't get much benefit from the ECU with the stock cams, since they start falling off after 4500 RPM and are done by 5000 RPM. Doing it before the cams won't hurt anything and you literally won't believe the power difference after you get the cams to go with it. Whole new bike.
Ronnie |
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Tourer
Posts: 430
| Monkeyman - 2012-10-30 8:39 PM Thanks, Ronnie. That's sort of what I was looking for. I'll add pipes only to change the sound. I don't want anything really loud but something more then the stock sewing machine sound. Do a search on this site for 'thrush mod' myself and many others have inexpensively added a nice throaty sound to the Visions by adding Hush Thrush or cherry bomb exhausts to our bikes. Took me about 4 hours of labor and about $150 for all the parts. O'Reilly autoparts has the muffler, muffler tips etc that you will need. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money.
I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM
XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done
I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | rdbudd - 2012-10-31 8:46 PM If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money. I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8. Ronnie Do you reflash for stage 1? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | varyder - 2012-10-31 10:27 PM
rdbudd - 2012-10-31 8:46 PM If you want the equivalent of a Stage 1 muffler for nearly no expense or effort, get yourself a length of 1 inch steel pipe, cut it at a steep angle of 45 degrees or more (creating a sort of chisel/punch) and a three pound hammer. Stick the angled end of the pipe into the end of your stock muffler and whack it with the hammer. This will cut and fold down the inner baffle in the muffler and produce a straight through "glass pack" for virtually no expense in time or money. I chose to leave my exhaust completely stock on my Vision because I've had plenty of loud bikes and I want quiet on trips, plus I really enjoy the "sleeper" aspect of my bike. Nobody expects it to perform like it does with it being so quiet. Also, the top filter gives a nice throaty sound to the intake, like an open sided air filter on a 4 barrel carbureted V8. Ronnie ?Do you reflash for stage 1?
I think most people do. I also think that the performance increase comes from the reflash or the addition of a fuel controller and not the muffler modification or replacement. Lloyd has demonstrated that the stock mufflers flow good enough to support his 116 motors that produce 135 horsepower at the wheel. Why would the mufflers be restrictive at only 110-115 horsepower on a 106? The bikes come from the factory in a lean EPA tune. Reflashing or adding a fuel controller corrects that a little bit and the result is better performance. The mufflers have nothing to do with it. If they were restrictive, changing them would have an effect, but they aren't restrictive--just quiet. Real performance increases on the Victory 106 come from better fuel/timing management and increased air intake. The stock cams are designed to limit cylinder filling above 4500 RPM, so changing them to a design like Lloydz VM1 that continues to fill the cylinders at a higher RPM pays big dividends in performance increases if they are accompanied by proper fuel and timing management.
That Vision dyno chart I posted (from Lloydz website) was run with stock exhaust, VM1 cams, top filter, VFCIII, and ECU reprogram. That's the setup I have. I haven't had my bike on a dyno, but I have tested it in the real world, on the dragstrip, and my timeslips confirm what that chart shows.
A factory Stage 1 reflash costs what, $200, and gets you a small improvement, retaining the stock rev-limits, the stock timing curve, and top speed limiter. Lloydz ECU reprogram costs $225 and gets you optimized timing, better fuel mapping, and 6400 RPM in all 6 gears. It's your money.
Ronnie
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Cruiser
Posts: 59
Marietta, GA | I don't see the ECU reprogramming on Lloydz site. What's it listed under? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | It's a service, not a physical product. Give them a call. You send them your ECU to be reprogrammed. They used to do it on an exchange basis, but don't any longer. Now, you get your original ECU back.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM
kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM
XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM
Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1.
Depends on what else you have done
I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much??
If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve
Edited by kevinx 2012-11-01 4:53 PM
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COOK1-1.pdf (25KB - 22 downloads)
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM
If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve
Wow! You're not kidding.
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Thanks Kevin......... |
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. Depends on what else you have done I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve Kevin, What else has been done to tht bik with the 110 build??? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | dr_reloader - 2012-11-01 7:49 PM
kevinx - 2012-11-01 4:51 PM XRsteve - 2012-10-31 10:23 PM kevinx - 2012-10-30 10:31 AM XRsteve - 2012-10-30 8:25 AM Kevin, How much compression can these things take before they start having detonation on 91-93 octane pump gas?? I'm guessing about 10.75 to 1. Depends on what else you have done I was thinking on a bike like mine, stock head castings and valve sizes, VM-1 cams, PC V, Lloyds top air filter and good slip-on mufflers ( CFR's ). Think 11.0 to 1 would be too much?? If you are going to go through the effort of doing pistons. Get the 110 kit from The Vic Shop. This bike has it+timing gear, revextend, and VM1 cams. Prolly my favorite build at the moment. Basically 122/129, and just a freeking sweet curve ?Kevin,? What else has been done to tht bik with the 110 build???
Dual air filters, and scorpion clutch plus big honker exhaust |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm thinking of putting my stock Vision on the dyno. Anything special I should before I go? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2012-11-01 10:19 PM
I'm thinking of putting my stock Vision on the dyno. Anything special I should before I go?
I'm not terribly excited about putting a 100K plus machine of any type on a dyno |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | KevinX, I was hoping you chime in, and it confirms some of my suspicions as to whether I should do this or not. The motor is still running strong and my curiosity was peaking as to what the old gal was doing. However, I know that it is a hard run on a dyno, however, I still ride 'er hard (in my mind) and have no problem pushing the bike. It does not smoke, and it feels strong as ever. I've never had a bike on a dyno, so what are we talking about to get good numbers. I suspect running hard through all of the gears and then holding for about a minute to two at the top rpm, at least 2 or three times.
Edited by varyder 2012-11-02 9:33 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Generally speaking a bike is run in 5th gear for three pass's at WOT. Problem is the tire is not loaded in the same way that the road does, and thin rod bearings can loose their oil film. I would hate to see something like that happen to you, and the bike fail shortly after the runs were made |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Got it, I totally understand. I'm taking this to 200,000, I hope, and maybe I'll dyno it then, or maybe after I get my Indian. I've got to know.....
(5th, WOT, around 6,000 ain't it?) |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | varyder - 2012-11-02 11:04 AM
Got it, I totally understand. I'm taking this to 200,000, I hope, and maybe I'll dyno it then, or maybe after I get my Indian. I've got to know.....
(5th, WOT, around 6,000 ain't it?)
5500 on your bike |
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