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Visionary
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Has anyone used this on another bike?
Got an email back from them saying they plan on making a Victory model this year.
http://fi2000r.com/html/pwrpro.php
(CVT model not to be confused with older fi2000 model)
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-08-09 10:14 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA | Looks like ot does simular things as the pc5 with autotune. ? Or at least its priced that way.. over $600? | |
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Iron Butt
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| Arkainzeye - 2012-08-10 5:53 AM Looks like ot does simular things as the pc5 with autotune. ? Or at least its priced that way.. over $600? That's what it appears to be. | |
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Cruiser
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DeRidder, LA | But according to their web page, without the use of O2 sensors. Makes me curious as to how it gets readings for up to 80 adjustments per second as they say. | |
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Iron Butt
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| bugmasai - 2012-08-10 7:45 AM
But according to their web page, without the use of O2 sensors. Makes me curious as to how it gets readings for up to 80 adjustments per second as they say.
It uses pulse width and frequency of the injector cycle, similar to what the VFC does, only they use their own proprietary software algorithm to calculate (at a rate of 80 times per second) how much fuel to add....
Having never seen the unit, I was curious if it also came with O2 sensors... I always thought that it did not, that it strictly only used the injectors.... however, I read something recently that leads me to believe that it does indeed come with them and you can choose to use them or not. If you do, it uses the o2 sensor only for idle and deceleration fuel adjustments... anyway, that's my understanding. | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | It does not come with or need O2 sensors. If your bike has them already, it uses that info only when the throttle is steady in 'cruise mode'. It uses NO maps. Everytime you start the bike, it is a fresh algorithm based on the present conditions. Wether you are at the beach, in the mountains, on a hot-sunny day, blistering cold or all of the above in one ride (yes, I'm a SoCal rider). If you change exhaust or cams, it automatically adjusts to the new requirements.
It uses the crankshaft just like a Dyno does and measures the speed of rotation by using the injector timing. It adds or subtracts a little fuel each time the injectors fire and monitors the rotation interval. If it speeds up, then it created more power and it is on the right track, so it adds a little more. If it loses power with the additional gas, then it backs off. At 4800 rpm, it is doing this readjust 80 times a second.
Price is about the same ($445 on Amazon) as a PCV/AT, so that's why I'm asking. Having to never worry about mapping or messing with O2 sensors has me leaning towards this. If I take my bike in for warranty work, I simply unplug it.
My understanding of the PCV/AT is that even though the AT is creating the map, it must still be manually refreshed depending on where and how you are riding that day and does not recalibrate itself if you have a change in altitude or weather. With the Power Pro, you have a fresh 'Dyno tuned map' all the time.
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-08-10 9:43 AM
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Iron Butt
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| Nozzledog - 2012-08-10 9:22 AM
It does not come with or need O2 sensors. If your bike has them already, it uses that info only when the throttle is steady in 'cruise mode'.
My question is, how does it use my existing sensors? In order to do so, it would need to plug into them some how.... from everything I've read, there are no O2 connectors. So, how could it possibly make use of O2 sensors without connecting to them?
Edited by Turk 2012-08-10 10:41 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA | Plus our 02 sensors or not wideband... I was also wondering at what fuel ratio does it set it to? I mean if there's no maps and you can't adjust it.. with a power commander auto tune you can setwhatever fuel ratio you want and it would adjust to exactly that, using real world air fuel ratios from oxygen sensors | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Cobra's philosophy is that fuel/air ratios do not matter. What matters is whether more fuel or less fuel gives more power and adjusts to what gives more power, not caring what the ratios are. Even if you have bad fuel or a dirty air filter, you will still get the best possible ratio for that days ride.
The Power Pro never uses any O2 sensor readings. It simply allows the ECU to take back over in 'cruising' conditions.
I have done some research on this product, but have never used one, so I posted this thread to see if anyone does. | |
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Tourer
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Prairie City, IA United States | I have several friends who have used the new controller on their bikes. They all say the same thing in that is really wakes up the bike. These are Star 1300's but it should do the same for every engine. | |
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Iron Butt
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| Nozzledog - 2012-08-10 3:52 PM
Cobra's philosophy is that fuel/air ratios do not matter. What matters is whether more fuel or less fuel gives more power and adjusts to what gives more power, not caring what the ratios are. Even if you have bad fuel or a dirty air filter, you will still get the best possible ratio for that days ride.
The Power Pro never uses any O2 sensor readings. It simply allows the ECU to take back over in 'cruising' conditions.
I have done some research on this product, but have never used one, so I posted this thread to see if anyone does.
Above you stated that if your bike already has O2 sensors, it uses them to control steady state fueling. Now you state that it doesn't. So, I'm confused, as I have been for quite a while trying to follow the HD, Honda, and Yamaha threads dealing with this controller. No one seems to know, and I have yet to see a picture of the complete controller assembly with connectors. The vendor's pics only show the controller unit. It either comes with O2 connectors or it doesn't. No one seems to know for sure. | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Stand by....
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-08-11 2:33 PM
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | I just looked at the installation instructions for a HD dresser and it has a cable that plugs directly into the O2 sensors. Before, information had led me to think that it let the ECU collect the O2 sensor info and then it just used those values, but it looks like it get that info itself. It does not however, use this data when it is in acceleration mode. Then it is strictly crankshaft performance.
PROS and CONS:
VFC III
Pros - least expensive.
Cons - Only uses map info, No dynamic inputs, Must use a Dyno to verify maps, Must be updated with any changes made to bike or riding conditions.
PCV
Pros - Maps are extremely programmable, Overrides ECU rpm limits, Can be upgrade to Autotune for Dynamic inputs.
Cons - Must use a Dyno to verify maps, Must be updated with any changes made to bike or riding conditions.
PCV w Autotune
Pros - You can choose to either run off of maps or dynamically, Allows you to adjust maps based on O2 sensor history, Extremely programmable, Overrides ECU rpm limits.
Cons - Most expensive, Relies on O2 sensor data as method for determining performance values, More involved installation.
Power Pro
Pros - Dynamic AFRs, Uses crankshaft as a Dyno for optimal performance values (during accelerations only, otherwise uses O2 data if available). Always runs at peak performance regardless of variables (fuel quality, air filter cleanliness, weather, altitude, mods...), simplest installation (no maps).
Cons - Cannot be adjusted for specific needs.
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nozzledog - 2012-08-11 3:48 PM
I just looked at the installation instructions for a HD dresser and it has a cable that plugs directly into the O2 sensors. Before, information had led me to think that it let the ECU collect the O2 sensor info and then it just used those values, but it looks like it get that info itself. It does not however, use this data when it is in acceleration mode. Then it is strictly crankshaft performance.
PROS and CONS:
VFC III
Pros - least expensive.
Cons - Only uses map info, No dynamic inputs, Must use a Dyno to verify maps, Must be updated with any changes made to bike or riding conditions.
Not really....it is load based and uses rate of change along with pulse width to modify the signal. It is completely dynamic, and does not work with fixed RPM values. Also the ECM is underneath compensating for altitude, temp, and air quality. So no adjustments are needed for changes in riding conditions
PCV
Pros - Maps are extremely programmable, Overrides ECU rpm limits, Can be upgrade to Autotune for Dynamic inputs.
Cons - Must use a Dyno to verify maps, Must be updated with any changes made to bike or riding conditions.
[\QUOTE]
Like the VFC the bikes ECM pretty much covers changing conditions, but the further you go from the tuned parameters. The further off it will be.
Real pros to this unit is its ability to remove fuel in some areas, and to ad fuel in zero throttle situations. This can reduce some popping and smooth transitions from zero throttle.
Cons are that off the shelf maps are very loose and require plenty of time on a Dyno to get working right. Plus it is RPM based and thus it is not looking at HOW a bike is ridden. Plus 20@270 is plus 20 weather you are accelerating , coasting, or whatever.
PCV w Autotune
Pros - You can choose to either run off of maps or dynamically, Allows you to adjust maps based on O2 sensor history, Extremely programmable, Overrides ECU rpm limits.
Cons - Most expensive, Relies on O2 sensor data as method for determining performance values, More involved installation.
Pretty close on this one. AT is suitable for many people in many applications, but be carefull of this crutch if you have a highly modified engine. Also failure rates on many PC products are IMHO a little to high
Power Pro
Pros - Dynamic AFRs, Uses crankshaft as a Dyno for optimal performance values (during accelerations only, otherwise uses O2 data if available). Always runs at peak performance regardless of variables (fuel quality, air filter cleanliness, weather, altitude, mods...), simplest installation (no maps).
Cons - Cannot be adjusted for specific needs.
Way to much hype, and not enough fact. You can not use a crank as a dynomwithin it's own operation. Dynamic testing requires fixed weights, loads, and numerical gearing. From what I have been reading this is pretty much a really smart VFC I see no reference to it using a wide band 02, and am a little confused as to how it can do what it says "without all those 02 hassles" bear in mind that this system brags about sampling 80 times a second, but pulse width of an injector is in MILLI SECONDS. I'll reserve judgment until I get my hands on one, but I see a bunch of hype that sounds like advertising speak | |
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Cruiser
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milwaukee wisconsin | i have had the the old style controler on bike i think it was a honda or kawaski but i do rember it was a p.o.s and could not get it tuned right so we went with powercomander ! | |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Yup a little more research, and it is a smarter VfC style unit, but it uses the factory 02 sensors. Not really what I was hopping for, but pretty much what I expected | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Thank you Kevin for your input, I'm am learning a lot about Fuel Controllers ever since I started looking into this. So, let's see if I got it... The VFC does not ignore the info coming from the ECM, but adds or subtracts a given percentage of that based on the installed map. OK, this makes a little more sense to me, and I can see where a better O2 sensor would be beneficial for that type of system. I also get why a FC should be able to vary the AFR for different scenarios at a given RPM. That info about the PCV is good to know.
The pulse width is the amount of time it takes to inject the fuel.
The pulse frequency would be how often it injects -i.e once every 4 rotations of the crankshaft.
So the advertising on the Power Pro says they are measuring pulse frequencies to determine if the crankshaft is accelerating (shortening pulse frequency) with an increase (or decrease) in pulse width. If so then it keeps increasing (or decreasing) the width until acceleration drops. It does this with every injection. Two injectors X 5400 RMP would mean, with our bikes, it maxes out at 45 samplings a second. Not quite the 80 (must be a different bike) but still enough to find a pulse width that creates the greatest acceleration of the crankshaft.
If your bike was sitting on a Dyno, and you were able to manually tweak the pulse width on the fly and see the changes on the Dyno that it creates, would you still need to see O2 sensor readings to get the most power? or is an O2 sensor just a means of tweaking the pulse width electronically after you know the respective Dyno results it gives?
Power Pro's hype that the crankshaft is a built in "Dyno" is a little misleading, but the ability tell if a crankshaft is getting more or less power with each rotation is acheivable and in this context, all that is needed. In no way will it tell you how much power is being created, only if it is more or less than the last rotational period.
Their approach is sound, but only works in the context of accelerating the bike. For all other periods (cruise and decel) this meathodology will not work. For these periods, it works more like the VFC but with an algorithym that cannot be adjusted.
So my question is, does it work? and, does it work when in cruise/decel mode?
I have not seen any feedback on any website stating that it has not performed as advertised while accelerating, but the most I have heard about during cruise is that it uses a little more fuel than stock (only a few, most say economy stayed the same). Another post at a different website stated that "using the O2 sensor while in idle/cruise works like it does when the bike is stock, though the unit adjusts the readings to richen up the target AFR for the ECU to a cooler running and more efficient value." I have not heard anything about decel "zero throttle" and have sent an email to Cobra USA to find out if it will reduce popping.
This seems to be a big change from their 'old style'. I am very curious as to how it will do. | |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Couple of things to keep in mind.....
The instructions for the Cobra list only connections for the injectors and the 02 sensors. No mention of a connection to a crank sensor. So just like the VFC it is looking at pulse width to determin what the engine is doing. Frequency again is figured by watching the injector pulse. Higher frequency means more rpm. Then they both look at trends. Is it going up, or down. Is it increasing or decreasing in rate. These calculations determin how the controller will modify the single.
Also if you ever get a chance to watch the lights on a VFC3 you will note they do not always work against a full fixed pattern. Sometimes they give a portion of the change to achieve the consistent mixture, and sometimes they will go to the max setting(never more then the setting) Again it is looking at rate of change along with trends in the frequency.
02 only matters at cruise, light throttle , or decell. In power mode the ECM goes to fixed cell mapping based on the multiple inputs of throttle, tach, map, temp, but it does not look at 02. this is one of the reasons that PC components work so well in racing applications.
Speaking of o2. The Cobra system appears to use the stock narrow band sensors. Narrow band sensors only know one thing. That is weather the mixture is above or below 14.7. To me; that is a useless input. I do not want my air cooled bike running that lean | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Why connect to a crankshaft if you are monitoring pulse frequency? The start of one pulse to the start of the next gives you the crankshaft speed since pulse timing is based off of crankshaft position. A crankshaft sensor would be redundant.
A narrow band O2 sensor cannot determine any AFRs. A narrow band O2 sensor creates an electric current from an oxygen-reactive fuel cell. A rich mixture causes an oxygen demand. This demand causes voltage to build up, due to transportation of oxygen ions through the sensor layer. A lean mixture causes low voltage, since there is an oxygen excess.
It requires an ECU to convert those voltage numbers into an AFR value. IF your ECU takes a value of .48v (random number, don't nitpick it) and translates that into 14.7 AFR then there should be no reason that an aftermarket FC can't take the same info and make it a 14.2 AFR.
A wideband O2 sensor works on the same principal with the same oxygen-reactive fuel cell, but have an electromechanical pump built in that allows it to proccess it's own data and eliminate the lean-rich cycling inherent in narrow-band sensors.
Checking other forums, there is now a Power Pro ver 2.0 that has an internal pot that allows you to tweak that 14.2 in either direction if you are not satasfied. It won't change the open loop AFR's (accelerations), only the closed loop AFR's (cruising/decel/light accel).
I wonder if the Vic model is ver 2.0?
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-08-13 12:21 AM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | You can not make .5v equal anything but 14.7 with a narrow band sensor, and you will set up a conflict if you try to control to a lower number. Once you come away from 14.7 you are either high or low period. The sensor is just not flexible enough. BTW looking around you will note the water cooled crowd is happy with the unit, but the air cooled crowd is 60/40 at best.
Still all hype, and no facts. Cobra puts up a bunch of marketing speak, but tells you nothing | |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nozzledog - 2012-08-13 1:17 AM
Why connect to a crankshaft if you are monitoring pulse frequency? The start of one pulse to the start of the next gives you the crankshaft speed since pulse timing is based off of crankshaft position. A crankshaft sensor would be redundant.
BTW I'm not the one that claimed that the unit "used the crankshaft for a dyno" I just pointed out that it did not look at the crank itself. *LOL* With 29 years of being a professional mechanic, certified in injection by Victory, Polaris, Ford, GM, Subaru, and ASE. I think I have a reasonable grasp on how this stuff works | |
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Brighton, TN | Nuh Uh! What grasp! Just cause you take a couple of courses and papers on the wall all of a sudden your an expert, Sheesh! Some people, want me to believe experience + training + Paper on wall + sound advice = grasp of the intellectual ability of mechanical studies and application. HOW DARE YOU! Then again I bet that's a college course.
I love good marketing, it's what makes you wanna buy it and it's probably packaged in Red something on the box. Red is a marketing tool.
KevinX - you wear anything red? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | An O2 sensor does not measure Air/fuel mixtures. .5V cannot always be a 14.7. It may be when at sea level at 72 degrees with 30% humidity, but if anything changes, a 14.7 AFR will cause a different voltage to come back. That's why they are used. If the ECU sends out 14.7 and gets a result of .6V then it knows that 14.7 is too rich and it reduces the mixture. The next time it reads it the sensor will be back to .5v.
Simple flow chart -
1. give a mix of 14.7 - does the sensor say .5V? If yes, then stay at 14.7. If low, then add fuel. If high then reduce fuel.
2. repeat step 1 with new fuel ratio.
The .5V is representative of what the manufacturer (or goverment) feels is the best balance between power and emissions. People who buy Fuel controllers do so to change that balance.
What if we decided that .6V was a better balance? Could we reprogram the ECU's flow chart to look for .6V instead of .5V? a narrowband O2 sensors range is .2V to .8V. Although the further you go from .5V the less accurate it gets.
reprogramming an ECU would be difficult. Using a FC that adds .1V of resistance would be much easier. The ECU would think it is getting a .5V return when it is actually running rich and giving a .6V return.
Now if you made a FC with adjustable resistance (pot) that would even be better (ver 2.0?). Then, air cooled bikes could run a little richer than water cooled bikes, or lean it back out for fuel economy. You choose the balance, and accept the risks of that balance.
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-08-13 11:56 AM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The problem is that the sensor PRODUCES the voltage. It does not MODIFY it. So unless you manufactured a sensor that produced the voltage at a different mixture. You are stuck with .5v being Stocio. That's why they call it a NARROW band. Even if you trick the ECM to run slightly richer. The sensor will then change voltage, the ECM will then try to correct to .5v, and you now have a descending conflict loop | |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Below is a better explaination from Cobra. Makes it sound much like a 3rd generation Dobeck based controller like a VFC. Getting less impressed by the moment....
You already own a highly accurate dyno?your engine?s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.
Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.
The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine?s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.
We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we?re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike?s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it?s literally Continuously VariableTuning.
The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that?s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It?s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second. | |
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA | I understand that if a FC sends a signal to widen the pulse width to richen the mix, the O2 sensor will report it being rich on the next cycle causing the ECU to decrease the amount of fuel, causing the FC to add more and so on and so in a decending conflict loop. That is the problem when thinking in AFRs and not spent gasses. If you can make the ECU think the O2 sensor is at .5v when it may be a little higher, it won't keep trying to compensate for a bad value.
Power Pro is patented by Dobeck, so that is expected. | |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nozzledog - 2012-08-13 5:53 PM
I understand that if a FC sends a signal to widen the pulse width to richen the mix, the O2 sensor will report it being rich on the next cycle causing the ECU to decrease the amount of fuel, causing the FC to add more and so on and so in a decending conflict loop. That is the problem when thinking in AFRs and not spent gasses. If you can make the ECU think the O2 sensor is at .5v when it may be a little higher, it won't keep trying to compensate for a bad value.
Power Pro is patented by Dobeck, so that is expected.
. With the initial closed loop VFC Lloyd tried using a fixed value in the 02, and after some real work, and Dyno investigation that I also spent many hours working on. It was decided it was pointless and solved nothing, but on a bike with a smarter ECM I could see where it could be required.
Thing is the more I read about the Cobra. The more I find it to be a repackage of a familiar tool. Problem is that while it is neat. It actually is more limited then the other products made with the same technology. Once again I'll say that I'm not certain, but I won't condom or confirm this thing until I get my hands on one. I have a journalist friend passing a request for a test unit right now. Hopefully I will have an informed proven test in the reasonably near future | |
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Cruiser
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Land O Lakes, FL | I put one on my M109R after much consideration and I can say from experience it works as advertised. It helped my 109 a lot and really smoothed out power delivery while increasing horsepower and keeping the AF ratio safe regardless of mods I added to the bike. We tested this several times with various mod levels and vs other bikes with custom tunes my bike made the same power and had the same curve as similarly equipped custom mapped bikes. This was all done on the same Dyno.
The nice part is you can make changes to the bike without having to go back for remaps. It never made "more" power but it did make the same power at each mod level and seemed to run well no matter the conditions. The bikes AF always stayed in the sweet spot and was always safe which I was very concerned with. It's almost he defacto standard on the other cruisers but for the ease of use and piece of mind I thought it was a great addition. I wouldn't hesitate to get one for my Vision.
Remember custom tuning is only as good as your tuner and the conditions it was tuned in.
Edited by PhantomX 2012-08-14 11:01 PM
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Cruiser
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Halifax, NS | If you guys want complete control of your fuel ratio - NO MAPS - make your own adjustments then try THIS
http://www.gmanindustries.com/shop/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory...
I had one on my C90 and they work - With this you decide how rich or lean the bike runs
Check it out
Rob
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Cruiser
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West Bend, WI | Looks identical to the VFCIII I have. | |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | robsxct - 2012-08-16 11:33 PM
If you guys want complete control of your fuel ratio - NO MAPS - make your own adjustments then try THIS
http://www.gmanindustries.com/shop/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory...
I had one on my C90 and they work - With this you decide how rich or lean the bike runs
Check it out
Rob
Same hardware as the VFC3, but none of the hours of modification to the underlying mapping to the unit; as Lloydz has put in | |
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Cobra Power Pro CVT for Victory