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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | I recently had a Lloydz cam, along with a Fuel Commander V, put into my 2009 Vision, expecting the 30% increase in hp that Lloydz advertises. Don't believe 'em. Dyno after showed 99 hp at the rear wheels, which is maybe 15-16% increase at best. Torque went up to 105, but for the money, I'm not a happy camper.  |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Rhode Island | What other mods have been done, high flow air filter, exhaust?
Jim |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm curious too. Also, I was looking for the 30% increase claim you mentioned that Lloydz advertises but didn't see anything. Did you do the dyno before installing the cams? I'm still running stock, but I always like to hear about the performance upgrades. One day I might want a little more umph in the seat of the pants....
Edited by varyder 2012-06-18 4:58 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | I did the Lloydz cams, Victory Fuel Controller and the Lloydz intake plate - I got a bit more than you but not a whole bunch.....103hp and 109ft/lbs torque.
I dont remember Lloyd promising me 30%.....and my bill was $1500 for the parts and the work, including a few maintenance issues that needed attention.....thats cheap for that much increase of HP. The HD guys spend 2x that money in search of decent HP and fall short most of the time. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I'm thinking about installing the cams myself. I've noticed the hp increases tend to vary considerably. Aaron is right about the HD guys. A friend of mine is having cams,air filter and a remap done on a new ultra and while HD says he will be at 100hp I have other friends that did the same and 82-85 was the best they've seen. |
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | kris1956 - 2012-06-18 5:38 AM
I'm thinking about installing the cams myself. I've noticed the hp increases tend to vary considerably. Aaron is right about the HD guys. A friend of mine is having cams,air filter and a remap done on a new ultra and while HD says he will be at 100hp I have other friends that did the same and 82-85 was the best they've seen.
That would be a HELL of a jump in HP. They are starting quite a few HP down compared to the Vic motor to start with.
September issue of Rider magazine has a test of the new Road Glide Ultra with the 103 engine.
Max. Horsepower: 68.1 @ 5000 rpm
Max. Torque: 85.2 @ 3600 rpm
Yeah......only 68HP.....no shit. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I think the local dealer is blowing smoke at them. One dealer told a customer he would see 110hp. Like I said 82-85 was the best and I'm not sure they weren't adding a few hp. The best dyno sheet I've seen was 78hp. I know they were disappointed and they spent far more than a Vision owner would.
Edited by kris1956 2012-06-18 5:49 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | kris1956 - 2012-06-18 5:49 AM
I think the local dealer is blowing smoke at them. One dealer told a customer he would see 110hp. Like I said 82-85 was the best and I'm not sure they weren't adding a few hp. The best dyno sheet I've seen was 78hp. ?I know they were disappointed and they spent far more than a Vision owner would.
Thats about what Im seeing on dyno runs at bike night.....the HD guys spending a boat load of money and thrilled shitless to break 80hp.
There was one dude riding a street glide.....he built his motor specifically to run on ethanol blend - not sure what that entailed.....but thats what he said.
It hit 115hp.....dont remember the tq. I was impressed..... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| A HD can be built to hit 115-120hp and I know people that have done it. The money they spent and the cost in reliability was ridiculous. I could have shipped my bike to Lloyd and had him put in a 116 kit with all the goodies for less money including shipping. And more hp. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| In any case I'm still going to install Lloyds cams. I think the hp gain is worth the money. |
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | Who did the install and Dyno? Did you get the IUV done too? I'm extremely happy with my set up...113hp and 109 torq. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | ^^^ I was wondering the same thing. I had Lloyd, himself, install and dyno my bike. I have the S1L1 exhaust, air filter and reflash. Lloyd added his DR1 cams and a Power Commander 5 with AutoTune. I made 116.88 @ 6000 rpm (see signature) or 105HP at 5000 (stock redline). A stock S1L1 bike typically makes 87HP at the rear wheels (5000 rpm).
Edited by ScoreBo 2012-06-18 9:11 AM
(2011Cams&PCV (Small).jpg)
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 2011Cams&PCV (Small).jpg (76KB - 5 downloads)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-18 12:46 AM I recently had a Lloydz cam, along with a Fuel Commander V, put into my 2009 Vision, expecting the 30% increase in hp that Lloydz advertises. Don't believe 'em. Dyno after showed 99 hp at the rear wheels, which is maybe 15-16% increase at best. Torque went up to 105, but for the money, I'm not a happy camper. What are you comparing to to get the 15-16% increase??
Keep in mind that at the wheel a stock Vision has about 80hp and 95 torque. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | My mechanic pulled up specs sowing stock Vision at 84 HP at rear wheel. 80 at rear wheel ending at 99 Would be almost 25%, which would be better. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Rhode Island | DRJohn2,
I'm no expert but I do know you will need to get the bike breathing to get the most out of it. Do you have high flow filter plus either the Ness or Lloyds top intake filter and performance pipes of some kind?
Jim |
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | aaronrkelly - 2012-06-18 4:42 AM
September issue of Rider magazine has a test of the new Road Glide Ultra with the 103 engine.
Max. Horsepower: 68.1 @ 5000 rpm
Max. Torque: 85.2 @ 3600 rpm
Yeah......only 68HP.....no shit.
My 09 Vision Stage 2 (Lloyd's cams, 2 upgraded air filters, PCV w/auto tune, level 2 pipes) dyno'ed 100hp/104tq and runs strong. I avg about 41 to 43 mpg.
My 11 RGU 103 Stage 1 (pipes, air filter, PCV) dyno'ed 77hp/92tq and runs strong. I avg about 44 to 46 mpg.
I'm pleased with how they both came out, but due to the gear ratios of the RGU it is "quicker" at partial throttle (0 to 40 percent) and between 2000 to 4000rpm.... that is where I do most of my street riding.
regards,
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-18 10:52 AM
My mechanic pulled up specs sowing stock Vision at 84 HP at rear wheel. 80 at rear wheel ending at 99 Would be almost 25%, which would be better.
You need more air going in to feed the ponies, which the Lloydz or Ness top filter will give you if you don't have one. The stock exhaust flows plenty good enough if you want to keep it--it will not restrict power at the levels we are talking about. Just adding a fuel controller doesn't complete the job--it has to be tuned to your bike and your setup to get the most out of it. The cams, a fuel controller, and a top intake filter are all you need to get to the 110HP level. Maybe you just need a bit of fine tuning.
If it makes you feel any better, the 6 cylinder 112 cubic inch (1832cc) GL1800 Goldwings typically dyno at 96 HP and 104 TQ with the addition of a Power Commander. Your 2 cylinder 106 cubic inch Vision is already a match for them. A little fine tuning should put you in front of them.
Also, be aware that different dynos will give different readings on the same bike, and even the same dyno will give different readings on different days on the same bike. A dyno is only a tool to show relative changes. You have to compare apples to apples. The dyno operator can make a bike gain or lose apparent horsepower just by how he sets the parameters for the test. What was your baseline on that dyno before you added the cams?
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-06-18 6:53 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | Don't know my original dyno numbers before Daytona 2012. But while I was there, Kyle's guys from KMC Powersports did some mods. I had torque tubes, top air filter, aic valve and VFC III installed. It made 92 hp and 109 ft/lbs torque. Then at the SEVR in Helen GA he did the cams and I got 108 hp 115 ft/lbs. I'm happy, but it is still making power at the cutoff, so I'll be getting the PCV 5 sometime early next year to boost the redline. If the original number is 84 hp at the wheel bone stock, that's about a 28.57% increase in hp alone. I'm happy and feel it was money well spent. Good job Kyle, Captain Jack and the other guy! |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | I've got the high flow filter but was told the top filter was so noisy I wouldn't be happy with it |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | Good info. Like I told someone else, I was persuaded that the top filter was too noisy. The dyno was a tune, but the guy on the Dyno said it was so dialed in there wasn't much he could do and it wasnt worth trashing the motor over. Maybe I should look at the top filter... Either way, what I'm hearing is that 99 HP and 105 torque ain't bad. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Yeah i dont have cams and i have the top filter. its a difference you can feel... allows your engine to breathe quicker. it is a little noisey but nothing crazy. If you were and spent the money to get cams installed, Not having the top filter is kind of like not having the complete package..
filter http://www.lloydz.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1000120
on this page you can see a bunch of dynos with and out differnt mods.. http://www.lloydz.com/dyno.asp |
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Tourer
Posts: 395
Moravia, IA | DrJohn......get the top filter, its not that bad. Im all about comfort and I listen to my ipod everytime I ride.
The noise is mostly at idle.....you can barely notice after your moving.......and if the radio is on at all it disappears.
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | Horsepower - Smorshcower.
I been 'KevinXinated' for a couple of years - and I have WHOPPED every Harley that tried to show ME something (including a few of my buddies with $10G in Hop-up-crap on their bikes) - and done it with the Co-Pilot on the bike. REAL WORLD POWER - that's what matters ....
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Cruiser
Posts: 249
Phenix City AL. | I think your dyno guy is not very good with vics, |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | jb.hatch - 2012-06-19 1:26 AM
I think your dyno guy is not very good with vics,
I was wondering something like that.. cause the customer spends alot of money to get the cams installed and fuel controller then the guy talks the customer out of letting More air into his engine by saying it make noise... i would think that if a customer is going to drop a 4 digit number on performance a little air noise is not going to be a issue... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | DrJohn, I've not taken the time or spent the money to put my bike on a dyno, so I can't give you dyno numbers. I have had my bike on the dragstrip, which is a far better "dyno test" than any dyno anyway.
My bike has the cams, a Lloydz VFCIII, and a Lloydz old style top filter. The exhaust system is totally stock, as is the front air filter. After doing those mods, I quickly realized that I needed the rev-limiter raised because the bike was still pulling HARD when it smacked into the stock 5500 limiter. To that end, I added a Lloydz reprogrammed ECU, which I highly recommend. Since you've already installed a PCV, you can get the download to raise the rev-limiter to do pretty much the same thing.
The performance of any bike or car is not determined by the peak HP or peak TQ numbers. It is dependent on the height and width of the TORQUE CURVE. A high peak number doesn't do you as much good if it only occurs in a narrow RPM band (typical for Harley builds).
As I've already mentioned, the GL1800 Goldwing generally dynos at about 95/96 HP and 103/104 TQ. The torque curve of the GW goes above 100 ft/lbs from about 2700 RPM to about 5200 RPM. Peak HP occurs at about 5550 RPM.
The Vision, with cams, top filter, fuel controller, and rev-extended has a torque curve that goes above 100 ft/lbs from about 2700 RPM to about 5750 RPM. Peak HP occurs at around 5750/5850, BUT continues near the peak all the way past 6000 RPM. See why the rev-extend is so useful? The Vision potentially has a powerband that's easily 500 RPM wider than the highly vaunted GW's powerband. That is significant in a match up with a GW. The stock 5500 RPM limit on the Vision is a severe handicap after you've put the cams in.
My buddy and I went to the dragstrip after I did my mods. Before the mods, my Vision wasn't a very good match for his GW. He could generally beat me. After the mods:
My best run was a 12.69 @ 104.85 MPH to his best run of 12.91 @ 101.10 MPH.
The average of 5 runs had me at 12.84 @ 104.46 MPH to his average of 13.05 @ 100.47 MPH. The ending MPH is the significant indicator of horsepower. Obviously, my bike is making more power than his (his bike/rider combination weighs 30 pounds more than mine--not a substantial difference). I would estimate from these results that my bike is making somewhere between 105 to 110 HP.
Here's why the rev-extend makes such a difference http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8212&pos...
My point is, get the top filter and the rev-extend and a proper tune, and there won't be many Goldwings or Harleys that can outrun you, unless you weigh 300 pounds.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-06-19 10:35 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | I've got the Vic L1S2 exhaust, high flow air - that plus the cam and Commander V - that's it |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | One quick clarification...
If you have a PCV, Do you need a reprogrammed ECU to extend the RPM limit? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | @Nozzledog, no you don't. The PC-V raises the redline to 6000 rpm.
@DrJohn2, do you know what base map your mechanic loaded on the PC-V? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Someone that actually has one will be along to confirm, but I've seen several references to getting a download from the PCV manufacturer that will allow a higher rev-limit. I am unsure whether this also overrides the 6th gear 120 MPH speed limiter of the stock ECU or not. I don't think it does, other than adding 500 RPM with the 6000 option turned on. I'm pretty sure you get an increase in gears 1 through 5. As I understand it, the rev-extend feature of the PCV allows a given amount of "overrun" over the stock ECU's settings. I've been told that getting the 1000 RPM rev-extend for the PCV allows 6250 in 1st, 6500 in 2nd through 5th, and 5550 in 6th. I believe they come with a 6000 RPM option that can be enabled, but you can request a higher limit. As I understand it, the 6000 option is actually a 500 RPM "overrun" over the stock ECU. You get 5750 in 1st gear, 6000 in gears 2 through 5 and 5050 in 6th gear. I do not have a PCV myself.
I've got a Lloydz VFCIII and a Lloydz reprogrammed ECU. His ECU has a better timing curve than stock at both the low end and up high, which is a map that Lloyd optimized for use with the VM1 cams, and it allows 6400 RPM in all 6 gears and eliminates the 120 MPH speed limiter for sure. For sure, Goldwings can only get to see my taillights if I wish. All the Harleys that have tried me got to see my taillights too.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-06-19 9:16 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-19 7:47 PM
This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input!
You've already got a good torque number. The potential is definitely there. I think you just need a little more air (and maybe fuel, tuning) going in at the higher RPMs to get a higher horsepower number. 100 Ft/Lbs @ 5500 RPM will be 104.72 HP. You're probably at 94 or 95 Ft/Lbs @ the 5500 RPM cutoff right now--No?
Adding that top filter will move that up to 100+, and adding a rev-extend with it will extend that 100 Ft/Lbs to about 5700/5800 RPM. 100 FT/Lbs @ 5700 RPM = 108 HP, and @ 5800 RPM = 110 HP.
The goal isn't really to get a high peak HP number, but to get a wide and flat torque curve. HP is incidental to that, and derived from it. Folks put way too much emphasis on a high peak HP number alone.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-19 8:47 PM
This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input!
Ya know. I thought I was reading it; that you did not have a top filter. On just a basic S1 the top filter can easily make 7% gains in HP, and Tq. Makes a little more noise, but is well worth it |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Dr John, Thank you SO MUCH for drawing so much attention to this post! I think we must have sold 50 sets of cams in the last couple days. Its truely amazing that they sell so well with me lieing about the gains that can be obtained.
It is also amazing that someone like yourself doesnt call to ask why your numbers arent were they should be and you air your feelings to the masses as appose to gaining factual information on why it isn't there.
Now typically when a Vision makes those number its because one of the cams is a tooth off in timing. Now there are also 2 other things it could be but My feelings are hurt so I'm going to go bury myself in a nice project.
LG |
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | Go Lloyd!!! My only regret of getting the CAMS, IUV, ECU...etc done is that I didn't do it sooooooooooner!!!!!!!!
This post has been great even though I have all the upgrades mentioned. It is interesting to see what other numbers people are getting. It is still interesting because I learned about the max number not meaning as much as the curve.
Thanks for all the post of this. It has been very informative. Ride safe and ride hard everyone!!
Edited by adirondacks 2012-06-20 5:40 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 133
New Castle Delaware | Well Lloyd himself did my Vision a few months ago and I posted my dyno sheets on here. He got me to 120.85HP and 120.96ft.lbs.torque. He is the Wizard. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | I have th top filter and tho you can hear it, it did not make that much of a difference in noise level . Performance is better! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 132
New York | Ditto Lloyd on everything he said! Ive also posted my dyno numbers from Lloydz and I've been extremely happy with his work and his performance products! I recommend calling Lloyd before blasting his products on an open forum because Lloyd or one of his knowledgable staff associate I'm sure would be more than happy to help you dial your ride in to maximize performance! In the meantime, I'll keep recommending Lloyd and his products!! He has been extremely helpful to me and I am definitely a return customer!! And I'll visit Pine Bush NY again I assure you! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I would have to agree, his products are outstanding. I only have his intake plate as I'm waiting on him to get more cams, on the waiting list. He's always been helpful, I only wish he was closer so I could have him install the cams. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I'm considering installing autotune when I get the cams from Lloyd and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts. I would especially like to hear Lloyds and Kevinx's opinion. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 216
Danville, CA | I wud pay the $$ for a $400 dyno and not waste all that and auto tune it.. JMHO... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kris1956 - 2012-06-21 12:29 PM
I'm considering installing autotune when I get the cams from Lloyd and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts. I would especially like to hear Lloyds and Kevinx's opinion.
Autotune is the way to go.... |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 18
| Recently had kevinx install VM1 cams, top breather and Autotune. Already had the PCV and S1L1 exhausts and air filter. Turk helped with a map and Autotune expertise. I haven't told my friends that I got the work done. They all ride HD's. I just laugh as I'm pulling away from them riding two up and them riding single. It's a noticeable difference, no matter what the dyno says. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 60
Vancouver, B.C. & La Quinta, CA | 119 HP with both air filters, Honkers, PCV, iac, Cams, ECM, etc. However, every dyno is different. Easy HP with Victory. My buddy has a super motor HD CVO with $75,000 in it that catch catch me. Go figure.
Edited by DAL 2012-06-23 12:04 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Oakwood - 2012-06-22 5:14 PM Recently had kevinx install VM1 cams, top breather and Autotune. Already had the PCV and S1L1 exhausts and air filter. Turk helped with a map and Autotune expertise. I haven't told my friends that I got the work done. They all ride HD's. I just laugh as I'm pulling away from them riding two up and them riding single. It's a noticeable difference, no matter what the dyno says. I won't be telling my friends either. I have to laugh though when then cam their motors, claim 110+ hp only to be disappointed when they see the dyno results. |
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