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Iron Butt
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| I ran into a problem the other day. I noticed when starting out from a light that one cylinder was cutting out. It only happened with very light throttle up to about 1500 rpm. I figured it was a plug or something but just for the heck of it checked how the mapping was doing in the PCV. Turned out the Autotune was going crazy and had continued to lean the #1 cylinder mixture right at the 2% range until it had damn near turned the gas off completely. I zeroed out those very lean map spots and it immediately went back to normal. I called PC and they seem to know something about it and told me to update the firmware, reload the original PC map and try it again. That was now 2 weeks or so ago and after some initial trimming it has stabilized and is running perfect. Probably not a bad idea to download their current firmware if you haven't done so lately.
Power Commander V Firmware V0.1.8.5 Marc
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Cruiser
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AZ | For those of us (okay me) who haven't a clue how to use a computer beyond surfing web sights and sending the occasional email, how is this downloading done?
Just so you understand, I had to have DynoJet techs on the phone (twice) talking me thru how to get one of their maps from their web sight into my PCV a year and a half ago which was both my first and last download of anything of that sort.
thanks, |
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Iron Butt
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| I can certainly understand your concern in performing the firmware upgrade. The first question is if you have Autotune or not. If you don't then what I experienced you needn't worry about. Having said that it is still a good idea to keep your PCV up to date so I have a few suggestions. The first is to contact PC again and have them walk you through it which is certainly doable but probably not something you'd be looking forward to. For that matter they have a program which allows them to log into your computer while its attached to your PCV and do the upgrade for you as long as the computer is hooked up to the internet. The other solution is much easier and that is to ask someone else to do it for you. The process is very simple for anyone with computer experience which probably includes 90% of those under the age of 30 so if there are any kids or grand kids in the family I'm sure they could do it easily. Another way is to take the bike by a computer shop and ask one of their techs to bring out his laptop and do it for you. Just show them the link I posted above.
Marc |
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Cruiser
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AZ | Thanks Marc.
regards, |
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Cruiser
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Chesterfield, VA | How can you determine what version firmware you are currently running?? I assume it is listed somewhere on the screen when you have the PCV program loaded. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| sarvbill - 2012-02-27 7:30 AM
How can you determine what version firmware you are currently running??? I assume it is listed somewhere on the screen when you have the PCV program loaded.
It's under one of the drop down menus..... try either Help --> About.... for something under the File menu.... I know it's there. |
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Puddle Jumper
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SoCal HiDesert | Thanks for the heads up ... great posting!
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Tourer
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| RLJ3RD - 2012-02-28 11:07 PM
Thanks for the heads up ... great posting!
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Puddle Jumper
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Prescott, AZ | If you do the install of the Power Commander V and Auto Tuner yourself, is there any need or reason for the bike to need to go the dealer to be "flashed"? |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc. |
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Puddle Jumper
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Prescott, AZ | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 2:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
Great. Thanks. |
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Cruiser
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AZ | dreesq - 2012-03-03 10:12 AM
If you do the install of the Power Commander V and Auto Tuner yourself, is there any need or reason for the bike to need to go the dealer to be "flashed"?
When I bought and had my S1L2 pipes installed I did have them "flash" my ECU to factory stage one values (part of the S1L2 purchase). My reasoning was if my PCV ever failed on me, and having upgraded both my air filters/exhaust, my ECU would not revert back to non-stage one values causing an extremely lean running condition.
Also irt previous posts in this thread, I've checked my A/F ratios at idle (approx 1,000rpms) and each cylinder was bouncing between 13.0 and 13.5 after warming up for about two minutes. So I don't think I'm experiencing the Auto tune "leaned out" condition as Marc was experiencing below 1500 rpm.
Still don't know how to do downloads (or un-compress files for that matter). My IT department staff at my work refused to do it for me (on their own time) citing liability concerns, or even teaching me how to do it. Maybe someday someone will post the steps to do both in a Vision Tech reference thread for all use "dinosaurs"...well I can always dream
regards, |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-03 8:17 PM
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Iron Butt
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| dreesq - 2012-03-03 11:12 AM
If you do the install of the Power Commander V and Auto Tuner yourself, is there any need or reason for the bike to need to go the dealer to be "flashed"?
YES! Remember, the ECM (the main onboard computer that gets "flashed") does more than just control basic fueling. It controls most of the onboard functions of the bike. Often times, just like with computer software in general, the manufacturer will find bugs or make changes that they slipstream into various updates that are then released for download. The Victory "flashes" are no different. The OEM stock flash from 2 years ago is more refined in the latest release than it was then. In the same way that you do Windows Updates to correct bugs, why would you not want to do the same for your bike's computer software? I can understand not wanting to pay for an "Update" to a Stage map, but the stock map flashes are free. Personally, if I had a Stage map, I'd pay once every year or two to get the latest bug fixes for it too.
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Iron Butt
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| kevinx - 2012-03-03 8:16 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
Mine works in real time, I can watch it happening.
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | You are watching the map, temp, and AT sensors move things around to compensate for load. Plug your lap top in and you will NOT see the tables move around. Spent 45 minutes on the phone with one of the ENGINEERS last week; talking about this. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kevinx - 2012-03-04 10:51 AM
You are watching the map, temp, and AT sensors move things around to compensate for load. Plug your lap top in and you will NOT see the tables move around. Spent 45 minutes on the phone with one of the ENGINEERS last week; talking about this.
The main PC-V tables don't move, but the trim tables do, and you can see the aggregate effect in real time in the AFRs !! I can reset my trim tables (without importing them first) which throws the AFRs off a little because they are set by the main table... but as I ride, I can watch the AFRs come quickly back in line in real time..... trim is determined in real time, and the effect is cumulative between the main tables and the trim tables....
I don't know how the older AT units work, but that is definitely how mine does.
Edited by Turk 2012-03-04 2:57 PM
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | i know this is kind of a apples to orange thing. but i would love to see someones Auto tune map with the same setup i have. (s1l1 with lloyds top filter) i would like to see How the auto tune changed the tables over what Power commander providse to the public. Just curious... |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | just a heads up.. if you tried to update your firmware on your pc5 make sure you Update the software for the desktop/laptop First!!! i was trying to update my firmware and it would say failed.. over and over. btw my pc5 software was from late 08 to mid 09. once i downloaded the NEW software i was then able to install the new firmware... was very easy. and since i was doing all that i left the USB wire in the pc5 and ran it up through my trunk so if i ever need to connect my laptop up again i just have to open my trunk... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Arkainzeye - 2012-03-05 12:10 PM
just a heads up.. if you tried to update your firmware on your pc5 make sure you Update the software for the desktop/laptop First!!! i was trying to update my firmware and it would say failed.. over and over. btw my pc5 software was from late 08 to mid 09. once i downloaded the NEW software i was then able to install the new firmware... was very easy.
Good point!
Marc |
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Iron Butt
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| Arkainzeye - 2012-03-05 3:10 PM
just a heads up.. if you tried to update your firmware on your pc5 make sure you Update the software for the desktop/laptop First!!! i was trying to update my firmware and it would say failed.. over and over. btw my pc5 software was from late 08 to mid 09. once i downloaded the NEW software i was then able to install the new firmware... was very easy. and since i was doing all that i left the USB wire in the pc5 and ran it up through my trunk so if i ever need to connect my laptop up again i just have to open my trunk...
That's the way I did it when I first hooked up the PC-V. I knew I'd need occasional access, so I left a usb cable plugged in, and coiled the excess cable with the pc connector in the XM radio compartment in the saddlebag. |
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Iron Butt
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-05 8:34 PM
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Cruiser
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AZ | Arkainzeye - 2012-03-05 2:10 PM
just a heads up.. if you tried to update your firmware on your pc5 make sure you Update the software for the desktop/laptop First!!!
Is the above quote telling me I have to "update the software for my desktop/laptop" or I have to update the software of my PCV before updating the firmware?
I"m aware that I come across as a "dimwit" on this board with my lack of anything more then basic computer ability (I won't call it "skills"). I do appreciate any and all advice/help I've received on this forum...I just wish I was in a position of knowledge to give back the same.
regards, |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | its one of the same... by updating the powercommander software FOR your desktop or laptop you ARE updating the powercommander software. the firmware update is DIFFERENT from the software update. btw here is the link to the downloads...
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommand...
RCS - 2012-03-05 9:21 PM
Arkainzeye - 2012-03-05 2:10 PM
just a heads up.. if you tried to update your firmware on your pc5 make sure you Update the software for the desktop/laptop First!!!
Is the above quote telling me I have to "update the software for my desktop/laptop" or I have to update the software of my PCV before updating the firmware?
I"m aware that I come across as a "dimwit" on this board with my lack of anything more then basic computer ability (I won't call it "skills"). I do appreciate any and all advice/help I've received on this forum...I just wish I was in a position of knowledge to give back the same.
regards,
Edited by Arkainzeye 2012-03-05 9:29 PM
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Puddle Jumper
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Prescott, AZ | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 7:33 PM
kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you.
I'm pretty sure I didn't give enough info in my original post. I do appreciate both of your responses. I had custom baffle work done on my exhaust at Arizona Victory in Phoenix when I bought my 2011 Vision brand new in August 2011. I believe, but I am not sure, that the dealer flashed my ECU at that time. Everything else is stock.
I now plan to buy a power commander with auto tuner and a high performance front air filter. I believe I can install them myself easy enough, but I didn't know if I would need to return to the dealer for another ECU flash. Thanks. |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 9:33 PM
kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you.
Not even remotely what I said. What I said is that auto tune feature does not adjust trim in real time. It is designed to have several trims accepted, and then let the reference charts work with the ECM's sensors do the adaptive work. I'm still not wowed by the PCV in a well thought out bike. It is still just an rpm based fixed map system once engaged. According to Dyno Jet. A real wide band sourced closed loop system like the HD crowd would be nice. Instead of this Bamd Aid system |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | kevinx - 2012-03-06 6:16 AM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-05 9:33 PM
kevinx - 2012-03-03 9:16 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-03 4:22 PM
Dreesq the answer is NO! Hell no. That's part of the point of getting the PC 5 and the Autotune. Essentially the PC5 and the Autotune module work off the base map of your stock ECU and create a new map that meets your equipment needs, constantly adjusting the map to suit your riding style, altitude, equipment changes, etc.
That is not exactly correct. The auto tune is to create a user map by excepting trims, and once it has reachedd the desired table. You no longer need to run the feature. It is not designed for real time fine trim, and it will not work that way. Talk to the PC tech guys, and they will gladly dispell the many myths surrounding the operation of those things
So Kevin, are you telling me that you NEED to flash the stock ECU to get the best results from a PC 5 and Autotune? Sorry, ain't buying it and that was Dreesq's question that I answered. The PC 5 and autotune will work just fine without a stock ECU "flash" from Vic. There's absolutely no reason to throw away $200 or so to the dealer and Ma Vic for a "flash" to the stock ECU. That's what the PC 5 and Autotune do for you.
Not even remotely what I said. What I said is that auto tune feature does not adjust trim in real time. It is designed to have several trims accepted, and then let the reference charts work with the ECM's sensors do the adaptive work. I'm still not wowed by the PCV in a well thought out bike. It is still just an rpm based fixed map system once engaged. According to Dyno Jet. A real wide band sourced closed loop system like the HD crowd would be nice. Instead of this Bamd Aid system
are these features useless?
?2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)
?Gear input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed)
?Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)
?With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).
?Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes
?10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)
?Enhanced ?accel pump? utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)
Edited by Arkainzeye 2012-03-06 7:10 AM
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | For 99% of the world they are useless. The factory ECM is MUCH smarter then the PCV, and when used with a load based controller; it works quicker, and runs into fewer conflicts. Yes the PC units have their place in the world, but they are IMHO over rated, over used, and misinformation on them runs rampent |
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Puddle Jumper
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Tampa Bay, FL | While not a mechanic, 100% agree! Even on my old Harley had a PC and in the end since not running anything radical took it off and factory flash worked better. Funny, just before removal I found a map for my exact make up and it was almost all zero's across the board.
With D&D pipes still agree. Factory flash. But I unfortunately bought RPW, which have a great sound but we can't seem to tune out some farting and backfire. On went the Lloyds IAV, on went PC5, getting better but not correct yet, one wasted dynotune, Lloyd's wants to do same at Daytona, I'm thinking now just go get a custom map. What a waste, but at this point with what I 've spent got to keep chasing the fix as I do like the pipes, and prefer non built in heat shields for comfort, obviously not looks. |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | damn... if a pc5 is no good, what about the units that cant tune each cylinder and treats the fuel delivery in every cylinder the same?
Edited by Arkainzeye 2012-03-06 7:51 PM
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | Arkaineye, thanks for the assist. +1+1+1+1+1
Kevin, I cannot believe you said that. I have always heard good things about you but apparently you're knowledge base on this issue is not up to snuff. OMG~! Really? You think Ma Vic's ECM narrow band is better than the PC5 autotune Wide band system? And you are wrong about trims. Yes, you can accept a map and "set it and forget it" or you can allow your autotune to continue to trim for all conditions, equipment changes and more. That's the point to a Wide Band Closed Loop System. The amount of trim depends on the percentage of variance you desire. The Autotune is set to adjust only if the trim exceeds a value of 20% But hey, if you want you can set it to 10%. And I don't need to flash my PC5 autotune every time I make a change. Seems you're real motive is making money, not doing the best tune. And I have yet to hear of anyone tat has been happier with Ma Vic's set up vs. a PC 5 with Autotune. And HD does not (to my knowledge) have a wide band closed loop system. It is a narrow band system like Vic's. To get a wide band closed loop you need ........... A POWER COMMANDER 5 AND THE AUTO-TUNE MODULE!
Color me disappointed with your thoughts on this subject.
Nuff Said. |
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Visionary
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Pittsburgh, PA | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-06 7:39 PM
Arkaineye, thanks for the assist. +1+1+1+1+1
Kevin, I cannot believe you said that. I have always heard good things about you but apparently you're knowledge base on this issue is not up to snuff. OMG~! Really? You think Ma Vic's ECM narrow band is better than the PC5 autotune Wide band system? And you are wrong about trims. Yes, you can accept a map and "set it and forget it" or you can allow your autotune to continue to trim for all conditions, equipment changes and more. That's the point to a Wide Band Closed Loop System. The amount of trim depends on the percentage of variance you desire. The Autotune is set to adjust only if the trim exceeds a value of 20% But hey, if you want you can set it to 10%. And I don't need to flash my PC5 autotune every time I make a change. Seems you're real motive is making money, not doing the best tune. And I have yet to hear of anyone tat has been happier with Ma Vic's set up vs. a PC 5 with Autotune. And HD does not (to my knowledge) have a wide band closed loop system. It is a narrow band system like Vic's. To get a wide band closed loop you need ........... A POWER COMMANDER 5 AND THE AUTO-TUNE MODULE!
Color me disappointed with your thoughts on this subject.
Nuff Said.
I noticed i see racing sportsbikes use them as well (pc5). if you go to other forums and read about how a bike ran good, but then ran Great after the auto tune, you have to wonder how? why?. Not saying the power commander is the only thing or even the best thing out there. but im pretty sure they have to be doing something at least partly right in order to get the sales they do.. even the repeat buyers.? when i bought my 2011 vision and it was completely bone stock.. i had my pc5 left over from my 08 vision. i installed it on the bone stock 11 vision and uploaded the Stock map to it..... right from the start i noticed better cold (first start of the day) starting. along with better throttle response... and this was with No mods at all.. the main reason i installed it on a stock bike was because i already had it sitting here in my garage... |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Wow you sure like putting words in my mouth.
The auto tune does not work real time. Don't believe me. Call Dyno Jet yourself. The PCV is a smarter PC3, but it is still just an rpm based unit. It is a piggy back computer that MODIFIES a signal. It does not do grand calculation like that done in a real ECM. It can not run a bike, and is simply a store house fro pre built cell based maps. Adding it to your ECM does not turn your bike into a wide band closed loop system. Auto tune is a TUNING AID.....That is it. Nothing more. The unit only knows 10 out of 100 throttle positions and adds or subtracts the same amount of fuel in a given cell regardless of what you are doing. In 99% of the cruisers out there a simpler, cheaper, and more reliable; load based controller does a better job. As to the insults you want to deliver about my knowledge. I've built and spun hundreds of bikes. What's your count? I know what I know....do you?
Glad you brought up race bikes. That is the perfect platform for a PC type controller. They are pretty much accelerating or decelerating, and can tune out mechanicle glitches brought on by dual path intakes, and VVT. A race bike has about as much in common with a Vision as a jet fighter |
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | BTW if you had read what was written instead of filling in the lines with preconceived thoughts. You would have noted that I said AVAILABLE to HD owners. There are currently several very good wide band closed loop systems on the market for them. I could easily make more money selling the PCV in both parts and labor, but why sell people things that they don't really need. Most builds are better with load based systems; iffy the absence of a good wide band closed loop system |
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Iron Butt
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| I have a PCV on my bike. That being said I am going to have to side with Kevin on this. I put it on when I put Lloyds intake on so I can't say with any certainty what caused the hp increase. My background is in auto repair,I ran a dealership that saw an average of 80 cars a day through our service department. My guys saw more cars in a day than 99% of people see in a lifetime. I suspect the same thing applies to Kevin and bikes. I'm sure he's forgotten more than 99% of us will ever know. |
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Iron Butt
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| From Fuelmoto's website, the largest PC-V distributor in the country:
"Auto Tune module
New for the PC V is the available add-on Auto Tune module which allows for live, closed loop EFI tuning. Based closely on Dynojet's new Wideband Commander 2 featuring two small Auto Tune modules and dual Bosch Wideband O2 sensors. The Auto tune module allows users set a demanded air/fuel ratio in the PC V software and the Auto tune will make adjustments in real time. There are AFR tables for each cylinder and they have the the same 250 RPM increment resolution as the fuel and ignition tables. The Auto tune can be configured for minimum run time before live sample, minimum Cylinder Head temp, as well as maximum +/- fuel adjustments in relation to the base map. The Auto Tune kit can also use the Dynojet map switch or any open/closed switch which allows the user to switch between live tuning to the parameters set thru the PC V software or the base map in the PC V unit. You can leave the map switch in "live" mode, or if you want to write the fuel map you can connect to the PC V software, retrieve the fuel trims and either write them to the map or clear them. The firmware and tuning strategy has been well written and in our testing we have been able to develop very, very accurate maps using the Auto Tune module opposed to some of the other Auto tune units on the market we have tested in the past. We have also compared several Auto Tune derived maps to dyno tuned maps and the results were impressive. A very important requirement for building a good tune is to have a somewhat close base map to start out with, as the Auto Tune writes its fuel trims off the base PC V map. The Auto Tune module does require some basic wiring from the sensor harness into the modules. The Auto Tune module is a very good choice for those with a unique build where a close map is not available or for those looking for the ability to tune in real time. The ultimate combination we recommend is combining a full dyno tune session with the Auto tune. We build the map for the best combination of performance and efficiency, and then implement the AFR's we developed into the Auto Tune AFR table. This strategy will provide the best performance under all conditions. " I plan to call dynojet later today to discuss this with them. But, as I've said, you can watch it on the display. Zero out your base PC-V map and your trim tables, set your AFR's, and take a spin, you can see the AFR's fall right in line with the targets.... that's as real time as it gets folks. It may not be the fastest processor around, but it gets to the target AFRs in short order. Then, you can upload the trims so the next time you run, you start out much closer to your set target AFRs. This is how it's designed to work, and it does for me. Just sayin'.
Edited by Turk 2012-03-07 8:02 AM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Call them PLEASE. I did, and they told me that what they mean by tune in real time; is the ability to build fixed maps while riding the bike, and that the system was never meant to be or designed as a live action closed loop modifier. |
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Iron Butt
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| Kevin, I'm thinking about installing cams in the future. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using the PCV with cams? |
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Iron Butt
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Orlando, FL | OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM
OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me.
First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not.
For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments
The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2012-03-07 10:00 AM
Kevin, I'm thinking about installing cams in the future. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using the PCV with cams?
If you go with the VM1 cam. The VFC3 will get you the same performance. Their is one difference though. With the PCV you can get a 500RPM increase. Though you could also send your ECM to Loyds, and get an 800 increase in EVERY gear, and no more speed limiting |
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Iron Butt
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| Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. |
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| kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM
Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol.
Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. |
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| Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. Took care of that first thing. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2012-03-07 12:21 PM
Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. ?Took care of that first thing.
1st through 4th gears only. 5th and 6th will get you nothing on my dyno with PC rev extend. Not that most people will go above 123MPH
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-07 11:43 AM
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kevinx - 2012-03-07 11:42 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 12:21 PM Turk - 2012-03-07 11:12 AM kris1956 - 2012-03-07 11:07 AM Thanks, I have the PCV so I'll stick with it. And the speed limiting is probably a good thing lol. Just check the box and you automatically gain an extra 500rpm in every gear with the PC-V. No extra purchase necessary. ?Took care of that first thing. 1st through 4th gears only. 5th and 6th will get you nothing on my dyno with PC rev extend. Not that most people will go above 123MPH I already own the PCV so I might as well use it if only for the rpm increase. And I'm not in the over 123 mph group. Thanks for all your help Kevin. |
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Iron Butt
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| "You are correct.
Auto-tune populates the trim table as you ride. The trims in the trim table (on top of the baseline fuel change in the fuel table) are being applied to the engine live. That way Auto-tune can know whether or not what it did to the trim table brings you to target or not, and will make a further adjustment from there if necessary. It is constantly applying to the engine and changing the values in the trim table.
If you like the tune it has developed, you can accept the trims into the baseline fuel table (simultaneously clearing out the trim table with all zeros) and disable Auto-tune; or let it keep going, if you prefer.
Let me know if you have any further questions.
Regards,
Chris Kelly
Dynojet Research Inc.
2191 Mendenhall Dr. Suite 105
North Las Vegas, NV 89081
1-800-992-4993"
That being said, I've since learned that KevinX's point is not that this doesn't all happen "dynamically", but that instead, it doesn't happen "instantaneously" as fast as it would with the ECM. The processor in the PC-V makes changes after the fact, albeit within fractions of a second or up to a second or two, depending on how far off a particular cell's AFR target was from the actual setting. It would take an integrated system or a much faster processor to make actual "real-time" changes, such as some of the very pricey units available for race bikes. However, the PC-V/Autotune DOES tune dynamically, as you ride. A second lag that gets that cell very close for the next time you pass through that rpm/throttle range is all that is required, and it works quite well. Also, this confirms that the base PC-V map, and the Autotune's trim maps DO work cumulatively.
Hope this helps those who are on the fence. |
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| Thanks Turk, Now if only there was a shop in the Dallas area that installed the cams as Kevin does. |
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Orlando, FL | kevinx - 2012-03-07 11:22 AM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM
OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me.
First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not.
For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments
The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems.
Great job of avoiding the question. Not one solution in your answer will automatically tune for all the changes the PC5 WITH Autotune will accomplish. You did not give a real answer AND you keep referring to the PC 5 WITHOUT the Autotune Module. With the AUTOTUNE module the stock ECU does not have the exhaust sensors and cannot do the things you mention. And if you use the PC 5 alone, you still don't have the stock exhaust sensors to make adjustments to the AFR as they should be disconnected. Please, this discussion started and still is about the PC 5 used WITH the Autotune module. You mention modules that cannot even remove fuel and do not auto adjust and you think that's better? REALLY?
I think I'm over this discussion. As far as I am concerned there is NO better solution out there than the PC5 WITH Autotune. If ANYONE (That includes you Kevin) knows of a better system that does everything the PC5 WITH Autotune does for the same or less money, please let me know.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-07 1:47 PM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 2:42 PM
kevinx - 2012-03-07 11:22 AM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-07 10:50 AM
OK Kevin, then enlighten all of us. What alternate system is available for my Vision, that does all you say it will for the cost of a PC5 and Autotune. And please, keep in mind that this better system you speak of must do all that a PC 5 WITH Autotune and wide band sensors does, adjusting for changes in altitude (Denver at 1 mile to Florida at sea level), changes in equipment, etc, etc, etc, without additional any cost. Please, enlighten me.
First off. The bikes ECU is the thing that uses a baro/map sensor to adjust for altitude, and the air temp sensor to adjust for climate change. The PCV just piggy backs off of the ECM to add or subtract fuel against a preset series of maps. I do not have anything against the PCV. Like I have said numerous times. It does have it's place. My only beef is that so many think that it does so many things it does not.
For 99% of all Vision owners a simple load based controller like a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will do the job just fine. They provide plenty of fuel control. are easy to set up, and have a failure rate close to zero. These bikes will run just as well get the same MPG, and make the same power as bikes that have the more expensive PC systems. In all enviroments
The 1% that have gone to 116", added cams that have to much lift for a stock bottom[460. 495] or who have gutted their exhaust completely. Will need to have the ability to remove fuel or add more then is available to the simple pot based systems.
Great job of avoiding the question. Not one solution in your answer will automatically tune for all the changes the PC5 WITH Autotune will accomplish. You did not give a real answer AND you keep referring to the PC 5 WITHOUT the Autotune Module. With the AUTOTUNE module the stock ECU does not have the exhaust sensors and cannot do the things you mention. And if you use the PC 5 alone, you still don't have the stock exhaust sensors to make adjustments to the AFR as they should be disconnected. Please, this discussion started and still is about the PC 5 used WITH the Autotune module. You mention modules that cannot even remove fuel and do not auto adjust and you think that's better? REALLY?
I think I'm over this discussion. As far as I am concerned there is NO better solution out there than the PC5 WITH Autotune. If ANYONE (That includes you Kevin) knows of a better system that does everything the PC5 WITH Autotune does for the same or less money, please let me know.
I answered your question completely. The bikes stock ECU is what alters fueling for elevation and climate. The PCV at best adjusts fuel for what happened 100 feet ago through it's wide band sensors. It itself does not compensate for either elevation or climate....With or without auto tune.
The load based systems I mention use the ECM to make those compensations just the same, but look at pulse width, and dynamic response for real time change. As for not subtracting fuel. How many negative cells do you have in your map?? Only reason to subtract fuel is because you did something wrong. If you knew a fraction of what you think you know. You would understand that o2 sensors are for FINE adjustment only[after the fact], and that since the auto tune is way to slow to keep up with an injector living in the world of miliseconds. It can NOT fine tune, and still bases it's world on RPM derived maps. Unlike load based systems
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-07 4:10 PM
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| I'm waiting for Cobra to release their Power Pro CVT for our bikes! I hear very good things about that unit!
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| Turk, who put your cams in? |
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| kris1956 - 2012-03-08 7:47 AM
Turk, who put your cams in?
Rylan (while working with Lloyd) did it while I was at the AVR last year. I was fully planning to just pick them up and take them home and do it myself (as I've done several times on the steel framed bikes), but I had the time, and so did they, so I figured, what the hell, I can ride it home with the cams installed. Rylan is one of the few people I fully entrust my bike to (other than myself, Lloyd, and KevinX).
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| I had hoped to make the AVR this year but it doesn't look good. No one in my area knows Lloyds or Kevins method of installing cams. I may just install them myself.
Edited by kris1956 2012-03-08 8:32 AM
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Orlando, FL | NO Kevin, I do0n't think you have answered my question. Are you telling me that adding a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will make all the adjustments to my fuel system automatically when I make engine mods, etc. etc.? hen why doesn't everyone get a fuel adder and leave the rest to the stock ECU? The PC 5 with Autotune does make automatic adjustments and I don't have to spend more time and money to have a good running machine every time there is a change in equipment etc. That's the biggest difference that I see in the 2 set ups. I kept asking you to supply an alternative that automatically adjusts and I am still waiting. The differences you describe are so minute they will never be noticed by the user. As you said in an earlier post, this is a Vision not a jet fighter. |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 10:08 AM
NO Kevin, I do0n't think you have answered my question. Are you telling me that adding a VFC3/Dobeck Series 3/ Ness big Shot will make all the adjustments to my fuel system automatically when I make engine mods, etc. etc.? hen why doesn't everyone get a fuel adder and leave the rest to the stock ECU? The PC 5 with Autotune does make automatic adjustments and I don't have to spend more time and money to have a good running machine every time there is a change in equipment etc. That's the biggest difference that I see in the 2 set ups. I kept asking you to supply an alternative that automatically adjusts and I am still waiting. The differences you describe are so minute they will never be noticed by the user. As you said in an earlier post, this is a Vision not a jet fighter.
What you do not know is amazing; for someone that is so adament to show it |
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Orlando, FL | I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 12:08 PM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 1:05 PM
I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
....AND YOU DON'T READ MUCH EITHER*LOL* I have said time and again that the PCV has it's place, but that it is over-rated. Not that it is crap. I NEVER said anything about converting to cards, and if you think there is jets in an injected bike......It just shows how pointless any conversation with you is; about anything more high tech then a ball peen hammer |
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| I want to see these jets in your Vision too. |
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Orlando, FL | kevinx - 2012-03-08 1:41 PM
MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 1:05 PM
I got it Kevin, you think the PC5 with Autotune is crap. Got it. Maybe I should just convert to cards and re-jet with every change. Got it.
.... if you think there is jets in an injected bike......It just shows how pointless any conversation with you is; about anything more high tech then a ball peen hammer
Kevin, please read the line where it CLEARLY states "convert to carbs" which was of course said toungue in cheek. Perhaps you need that ball peen hammer you speak of to comprehend what you read. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 1:11 PM
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Brighton, TN | Knuckleheads R Us, It was going good and I was getting an education on the different types of controllers. I'm still a little fuzzy on the RPM vs Load, but I'm close.
There has been good explanation of both types and since I don't drag race, the PC5 would not be a good fit for my normal run of the mill commute. The VFC would seem to be a better fit, or the other Load based items.
I have followed along quite nicely as both sides have been explained, I really enjoy the techie side of it and not just the propaganda, advertisement, marketing side of it.
Now, to my point, MaddMax2u, from what I read above KevinX explained both types of electronic gizmos, quite well for a novice. You seem to be arguing a different point based on your understanding of it, which I read as you are either being informed incorrectly or have a different take on the way these items work. He has also pointed out the OTHER Options available to you or us. If I was in the market according to this discussion, I would not be getting the PC5 cause I don't drag race, but I would get the Load Based option.
This is based on merely a perception of a conversation gone awry. However, I do know that sometimes what the Marketer or Advertiser tells you ain't quite what it does.
And if you feel the need there are probably some old school guys who would love to drop a carburetor on the bike, well, cause it just makes sense.
When ever you guys are done with the ball peen hammer, let me know, I could use another one. Otherwise, simmer down and see if you can't come to an agreement on the way it works, maybe not! Jackwagons! |
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Pittsburgh, PA | What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be? |
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| Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 1:33 PM
What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be?
For Victory models, there are no other choices in add on fuel controllers except for the Power Commander IIIusb and V that will subtract fuel. A much more expensive option would be to go with a replacement fully programmable ECM, but then you must configure all sorts of parameters. Much more complicated, but that would be the best option for the racer. Not sure why drag racing and the PC-V were singled out together, as that's not really it's strong suit given that it's more reactive than proactive (albeit in fractions of a second).... The PC-V IS an excellent option for the sport touring, cruiser, and touring crowd given that it quickly arrives at the target AFR's. |
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Brighton, TN | Confused again, guess I'll just stick with the Superior Stock ECM, gives me good power and fuel mileage, I just ride! |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 2:33 PM
What fuel controllers out there besides the power commander can remove fuel from the mixture If need be?
Good question, and Turk gave the right answer, but as I said earlier. The only reason that you would be subtracting fuel from a Vision or X bike is because you were either running way to much cam for the cr[495,460] or you gutted your mufflers completely, and no longer have any exhaust velocity. Either way you would be installing a band aid on a self inflicted wound.
@Max....You mean where it clearly states "Convert to CARDS"?? I just figured you were referring to re-flash cards. Not my fault you can't proof read
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-08 2:26 PM
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| Kevin, I thought the same thing. I've been the automobile business all my life and that was my first thought. |
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Orlando, FL | Kevin, use your ball peen hammer on the left side of your head this time. Your using it way too much on the right side of your head.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 4:14 PM
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Northeast Ohio | I have been watching this thread closely as I have cams, PC-V and AutoTune in my possession and am just waiting for installation. My 2008 had cams, VFC3 and was tuned by Lloyd Greer. It ran well in Florida, but was blowing black smoke like a tractor pull event when I got back to Ohio. This time, I decided to go with the PC-V this time as I wanted better control and more automatic adjustability over the bike than I had in the past. Now I am more confused than ever. Reading DynoJet's website (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx) it states that it "adjusts the fuel map while riding." Are we saying you have to commit the tuning map to the base map version in order for this to happen?
Another paragraph states "The Auto Tune kit can be configured to run and correct at all times or by using the "map switch port" on the PCV. You can set it up so that you can switch back and forth between the tuning modes and the base map settings. You can also configure the Auto Tune kit to wait until the bike is at a certain operating temperature before beginning to make adjustments."
I would love to keep this conversation going to better understand the truth.
Edited by ScoreBo 2012-03-08 4:28 PM
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 5:11 PM
Kevin, use your ball peen hammer on the left side of your head this time. Your using it way too much on the right side of your head.
So you can't proof read, and it's my fault??? Wow......You didn't per-chance go to FSU did you??
EDIT: BTW Flash. Read my sig. It has been that way for quite a long time, and you might wish to take it to heart
Edited by kevinx 2012-03-08 4:47 PM
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| I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion. |
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Orlando, FL | Aw Kevin, it's ok. I won't pick on you anymore.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-08 6:32 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA | kris1956 - 2012-03-08 4:48 PM
I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion.
i also think 1 or 2 also sale "another" fuel controller as well, so...... |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | MaddMAx2u - 2012-03-08 7:31 PM
Aw Kevin, it's ok. I won't pick on you anymore.
If making yourself look like a fool. Is what you call picking on me, You were doing a great job. Don't stop now. I'm still waiting for you to explode in a blinding flash......Flash |
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Arkainzeye - 2012-03-08 7:34 PM
kris1956 - 2012-03-08 4:48 PM
I think most of us would agree that Kevin and LLoyd are the experts when it comes to Victory. I would be curious about Lloyds opinion.
i also think 1 or 2 also sale "another" fuel controller as well, so......
Funny I spoke of pretty much all of the available plug and play options, and except for my bias for the simpler load based units. I don't believe I made any attempts to sell any particular controller. Just an honest opinion based on setting up hundreds of bikes. So I'm not understanding where this or the other comment about making money come from. |
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| I bought the PCV because I thought it was the best one for my bike. It may not be but I own it so I use it. As I said before I put it and Lloyds intake at the same time so I can't say which did what. I don't use the auto tune sensors. I plan on having cams put in and that's it. |
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Cruiser
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The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Wow, what a conversation! I leave you guys for two days.....
Anyway I think everyone has it right but it getting caught up in the language differences. When people quote from PC's website and e-mails note that they generally say that you can TUNE in real time, and it is constantly TUNING. So yes the PC works in real-time. But are you going to still be TUNING in 3 years, or will you finally have settled on a map by then, LOL!
Once you settle on a map it is MY UNDERSTANDING that you accept it and then it does like Kevin says and it runs a fixed RPMxThrottle position fueling from then on out. (I say MY UNDERSTANDING because although I install many PCV's, they are all dyno tuned, every Auto-tune I install is "tuned" by the customer on his own time.)
So then you can always turn the TUNING back "on" and redo your map using the supplied wide band sensors if you so choose. Or you can leave it on and be constantly tuning (which is what it seems that Turk is doing). BUT what I'm worried about is eventually the O2 sensors are going to wear out, it is nature of the beast. I replace the ones in my LM2 every year, the place that does my dyno work does them every 6 months. So for those that leave the TUNING "on" constantly so they can say "look, my PC is always on, always working in real time" I worry that may bite you in the ass after a certain amount of time. Eventually the O2's will start to give slightly false signals and your real A/F will be off. I don't think PC recommends that a person leave the auto-tune on "forever", I think the intent is to use the Auto-tune in lieu of a dyno, make a map for yourself, then turn it off.
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Cruiser
Posts: 169
The Vic Shop - Central Iowa | Lastly I do agree with Kevin, stock dispacment motors in my shop I try and sell the Lloydz VFCIII. Big motors get a PCIII or PCV. REALLY big motors get both believe it or not. Like he said the PC's have a place, those are the places I see that each unit works best. Markup on each unit is about the same, but setting up a PC can be more labor, so tecnically there is more money to be made by selling PC's all day long.
The VFC vs PC debate will rage on for a long time with misinformation coming from both sides, but I tell you I learned SO MUCH about both units after I bought myself a stand-alone 02 sensor (LM2) and could see the effects of different fuelers ON THE STREET. Again, they both have their place.
On most bikes I can set up a VFC with my LM2 to have the same or better results than a PC, basically making my brain the "Auto-Tune". But no one but us mechanics has an aftermarket A/F meter laying around to tune the VFC's - that is why the PCV with Auto-tune is selling like hotcakes. So I tell guys that when you bring the bike to me I can save you a bunch of money over a PCV by installing a VFC and setting it up on-the-street with my LM2. Conversely I like the fine tunabilty of a PC on bigger motors that may have strange combinations and so I recommend the PC right out of the gate.
Also: the load based argument. I'm just a simple man, I can't wax philosophical about pulsewidth and voltage speeds, and technical crap like that, but I can tell you from real world experience that the load based aspect of the VFC's is AWESOME. That is why some really big motors get both controllers, a PC for a basic speed VS throttle postion fueling, the a VFC to add fuel based on the load of the motor. It is common for me to break in a custom big-bore motor with a VFC because I can rely on it to add fuel precisely, QUICKLY, and based on load, then swap to a PC after the 500 mile break-in.
Anyway I can go on for a long time about tuning. Every day is a learning experience with different technologies and methods. I definelty don't know it all yet, but every day gets me more experience and thus more knowledge. Also I do listen to those that have more experience and knowledge, and factor that into my decisions as well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Thanks Rylan, that helps. Like I said, I already own the PCV so I'll use it. And I only paid about 200.00 new so it wasn't that bad. One of these days within the next six months or so I hope be where one of you three are installing cams and dyno tuning and I'll simply have cams installed and a map programmed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Nicely put Rylan |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Rylan, thanks for the concise words. You repeated what I tried to say said over and over. That the only aftermarket set-up that can "auto-tune" without the customer physically making adjustments to the unit is the PC 5 with AUTOTUNE. As you so succinctly stated........
"But no one but us mechanics has an aftermarket A/F meter laying around to tune the VFC's - that is why the PCV with Auto-tune is selling like hotcakes."
Thanks for making my point and stating it so well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| ScoreBo - 2012-03-08 4:28 PM
...it states that it "adjusts the fuel map while riding." Are we saying you have to commit the tuning map to the base map version in order for this to happen?
Another paragraph states "The Auto Tune kit can be configured to run and correct at all times or by using the "map switch port" on the PCV. You can set it up so that you can switch back and forth between the tuning modes and the base map settings. You can also configure the Auto Tune kit to wait until the bike is at a certain operating temperature before beginning to make adjustments."...
No, you don't HAVE to commit the trims to the base map for the unit to adjust the fuel map while riding. Think about it this way, there are THREE "tables" in play in a PC-V w/Autotune setup. The first table is the base fuel map that is stored in the PC-V. The second table is the Trim table stored by the Autotune. The third table is the target AFR map. The beauty of this setup is that all the rider does is set his/her preferred AFR targets (which typically come preconfigured, although many of us like to alter them a little). The autotune then uses those targets and self adjusts it's own trim tables so that the aggregate of the trim table and the PC-V's native fuel table yield the target AFR out the exhaust. Periodically, you can upload this trim table to the PC-V, which will add or subtract those trims to the base map, and zero the trim table. Doing this upload a few times will get the base PC-V fuel tables right on the money... so much so, that folks sometimes disconnect their autotune altogether. Personally, I don't see any reason to ever disconnect it, since it continuously monitors exhaust, it can indirectly compensate for varying conditions.... it basically is a slightly laggy (fractions of a second) closed loop system that the rider can control.
And, as Rylan stated, there is a place to run both controllers simultaneously. My previous bike, an '06 KP ran both the VFC3 and a PowerCommander 3usb. It had a 110" high compression high output motor making almost 135hp/145tq, and had a 40shot of N2O on top of that. The PC flattened out my fuel curve, while the VFC handled the extra fuel requirements of load and the nitrous circuit. It is so finely tuned though, that even with all that power, it runs as smooth as a stock bike. And, it's for sale at my local dealer, Austin's! (plug)
Hope that helps.
Edited by Turk 2012-03-09 7:18 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Turk - 2012-03-09 4:10 AM
No, you don't HAVE to commit the trims to the base map for the unit to adjust the fuel map while riding. Think about it this way, there are THREE "tables" in play in a PC-V w/Autotune setup. The first table is the base fuel map that is stored in the PC-V. The second table is the Trim table stored by the Autotune. The third table is the target AFR map. The beauty of this setup is that all the rider does is set his/her preferred AFR targets (which typically come preconfigured, although many of us like to alter them a little). The autotune then uses those targets and self adjusts it's own trim tables so that the aggregate of the trim table and the PC-V's native fuel table yield the target AFR out the exhaust. Periodically, you can upload this trim table to the PC-V, which will add or subtract those trims to the base map, and zero the trim table. Doing this upload a few times will get the base PC-V fuel tables right on the money... so much so, that folks sometimes disconnect their autotune altogether. Personally, I don't see any reason to ever disconnect it, since it continuously monitors exhaust, it can indirectly compensate for varying conditions.... it basically is a slightly laggy (fractions of a second) closed loop system that the rider can control.
And, as Rylan stated, there is a place to run both controllers simultaneously. My previous bike, an '06 KP ran both the VFC3 and a PowerCommander 3usb. It had a 110" high compression high output motor making almost 135hp/145tq, and had a 40shot of N2O on top of that. The PC flattened out my fuel curve, while the VFC handled the extra fuel requirements of load and the nitrous circuit. It is so finely tuned though, that even with all that power, it runs as smooth as a stock bike. And, it's for sale at my local dealer, Austin's! (plug)
Hope that helps.
That is a perfect explanation and exactly as I understand it.
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 43
Rossville, IL | I'm only trying to understand, could someone please explain how "load based" works and why it's better than having a post corrected A/F ratio using the Autotune?
I'm certainly not dissing the VFC as it certainly has it's place and it is a very well made product. I do have a couple of things that I don't understand using it however and I think it had Lloyd slightly perplexed while on the dyno at the AVR last fall with both my bike and a friend's.
My bike is an '09 Vision with Lloyds VM1 cams, HC pistons, ECM rev extend mod, intake, Stage I mufflers, & stock mapping. My friend that was there has a '10 Ness Vision the exact same setup, only with Stage II mufflers. We both were running the VFC and having the same issues with the bikes running too rich, and getting 25-28 mpg at best.
We both had Lloyd run the bikes on the dyno and even with the VFC completely turned off, Lloyd said it was running too rich across the entire RPM band. My bike was on the dyno first, so he suggested that we try a PCV and see what would happen. He knows his stuff and a short time later, he had the bike dialed in and running great. The next day, Lloyd put the other bike on the dyno and had the same problem with the VFC adding too much fuel even when turned off. In went the PCV and again, he dialed in a great running bike. When I looked at the fuel tables, it is interesting to note that the PCV only has positive numbers, no negatives.
Even before Lloyd had the bike on the dyno, I had some issues with the bike pinging on heavy load. To make a long story short, I sent the heads, pistons, & jugs back to him this winter at his recommendation and he discovered that one of the heads had 6 cc's less volume which shot the compression up in one cylinder. After some fantastic machine work, he corrected the cc's, did a 3 angle valve job, and did a basic porting job on the valve pockets. I also installed an Autotune and started with his fuel map as the base. The bike runs better than I could imagine and I'm very happy with it now. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| ScoreBo - 2012-05-25 1:28 PM
I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons.
Wow, great numbers without running a top filter! Can you post up your dyno chart? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | ScoreBo - 2012-05-25 1:28 PM
I am a recent convert to the PC-V w/AutoTune, and used to have VFC3 on my 2008. So I understand both (VFC more than PC-V) WOW! I am in love with the PC-V. Much greater control over the fueling, added bonus of rev extend and the ability to tune to a changing environment is incredible.
I personally think the VFC3 is great for those that don't want to monkey with anything (Wideband O2 sensors, committing the trim tables to the fuel tables, etc) and are looking for a cost effective way to add cams. Setting it up for a base tune and forgetting about it is nice. This is much like the stock setup / ecm. Sure you're going to run a little richer across the board, but you never have to think of it. On the other hand, if you want to have it constantly dialed in to the best AFR setup, the PC-V is a slick setup.
I am glad I had Lloyd install everything for me, including his target AFRs in my PC-V. This, to me, is an area of concern for me. What should these numbers be and should I just accept the defaults (if there were any) from Dynojet? I had Lloyd do a base tune on the bike as I wanted to shorten the AutoTune process. He got me 95% the way there when it was pulled off the dyno. I currently have my AutoTune set to adjust a maximum amount of 20%. With every AutoTune commit / save I make, I continue to have greater resolution on the tune.
Without the intake plate, I made 117HP & 113TQ. Am I happy? You bet! Would I have gotten the same numbers with a VFC3? When it rolled off the dyno; sure. Now if I decide to add the intake plate later, HAVE to run lower than 92/93 octane, in higher or lower altitudes, humidity, or any other variables to my current conditions, I feel confident that I will be able to proactively stay at my current performance level. This is the main reason I went down this route. To be honest, I would recommend this setup on a stock bike for these very reasons.
You did these numbers without cams??? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | RT, I did cams. VM1s |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Here is a S1L1 (not mine, but Lloyd says they are all about the same) and mine. I have to ask Lloyd to send me the color version.
(2011 Cams - Dyno.jpg)
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 2011 Cams - Dyno.jpg (60KB - 4 downloads)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Oh yeah, Lloyd told me that the intake plate adds the +7HP to the area in the middle (more mid-range power) of the power band. I just didn't want the noise. |
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