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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| I upgraded my stereo this past summer with the Alpine Amp, and Kicker PS speakers... It sounded great but the Alpine amp left me with a lot to be desired in the power department. So I upgraded that Alpine to the New Rockford Fosgate PBR 300X4, which has the power, but a short life.
I suspect the trip to the rally this past summer routinely riding in 100 plus degree weather, combined with the load I was putting on the amp was just too much for the port little guy. I was going to get the Rockford amp repaired but the repair was going to cost almost as much as just replacing the amp. So.... I decided to upgrade again, this time I will be installing the Arc KS 125.4 mini amp.
The arc amp is a bit on the long side so I am going to have to get creative in mounting it if I keep it in the trunk stem. I wouldn't mind mounting the amp else where but there are not many good alternatives that are as protected from the elements, and I don't want to give up bag space.
We will see how it all goes... I figure by the time I am done upgrading my stereo system on the Vision, I could probably arc weld with it.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 42
Prescott, AZ | Can't mount it in the fairing? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| There are spots but there is also a much higher chance of it getting wet there, which out here in the pacific northwet is something I am concerned about. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Kevin - where did you have the Rockford amp mounted? I have mine mounted in the left bag and while it runs warm, I've never had it go into thermal protection (off) mode. I am planning to add vent holes this spring. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| Jeff,
I had mine mounted in the trunk stem, and I tried to keep a pretty good amount of metal on metal contact to help sink heat away form the amp. I never had it go into thermal protection. If fact the amp still works until I start to put a good demand on the Boosted Rail Technology. Now every time the boost light fires off the amp duds out. I believe it was either a faulty amp, or my demand on the boosted rail was just too much. So instead of making the same amp work, I am going to try the Arc Amp, give conventional technology a shot. Plus the Arc amp has an integral fan. I think mounting it will be interesting but I will figure it out.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 669
Peachtree City, GA | So what speakers are you running now?
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| Still using the Kicker PS5250s. They are awesome.
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | I love my Alpine amp with Hertz speakers. Feel it provides enough power to driver the speakers without any distortion. 80 mph and I can hear the music very clean even with a 3/4 helmet. Best part is you can mount it in the trunk hole and keep it out of the way. |
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Tourer
Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM | Can anyone post some feedback on the Alpine KTP-445 amp. I am planning on this upgrade this spring. I like the mounting loc. in the front fairing. Don't want to loose any storage in the bags and sometimes remove the trunk. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 114
Southeast, AZ United States | How about if someone can answer a question on whether or not installing an amp and speakers will have any ill effect or benefit to the factory intercom system? Thanks all.
Ken |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| Riverdawg - 2012-02-13 11:46 AM
I love my Alpine amp with Hertz speakers. Feel it provides enough power to driver the speakers without any distortion. 80 mph and I can hear the music very clean even with a 3/4 helmet. Best part is you can mount it in the trunk hole and keep it out of the way.
I actually ditched the Alpine Amp in favor of more powerful options. I felt the Alpine just didn't have the balls I was looking for to drive the Kicker PS5250s
I ride with a half helmet and ear plugs 90% of time, so my system has to be powerful enough to overcome the ear plugs at speed.
I upgraded to the Rockford Fosgate PBR 300X4, and it delivered on the power department but not on the reliability and longevity end, it lasted all of maybe 4 months.
So now I am moving to the Arc KS 125.4 mini, which has the power, it's also employs conventional technology. I believe it was a the boosted rail technology on the Rockford that failed prematurely. The boosted rail tech is also what allowed the RF to be so small. The arc takes up a larger foot print which will make finding it a home a little more challenging, but I think (hope) the amp itself will have what it takes to handle the duty cycle I demand.
It will be interesting to see how this thing goes. One think I have considered is running two alpine amps bridged but they were not designed to be run that way, which would mean a shorter life... But how much shorter?? Don't know. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | The one problem with the Alpine amp is installing it. There are instructions on this site and also the VMC, forgot who provided them. The problem is they are not very clear on some steps. After 2 weekends of not being able to get it to work I took it to a local stereo shop. The installer had installed this unit on several bikes. He new what steps were missing from the instructions I was using plus a a couple wrong steps. One thing he did was install a couple of diods to protect against a surg. Like I noted before there is plenty of power to drive the Hertz speakers I installed which are a top line speaker. Doing 80 mph with the volume at 12 is clear and loud. I ride with both a 1/2 and ear plugs or a 3/4. Just a warning, if you upgrade to speakers with a large magnet the front speaker boxes will need to be reformed via a heat gun and this is a pain in the ass. For the rear speakes get some foam box covers, suff some speaker material in them at it will help boost the sound a little. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| Riverdawg - 2012-02-14 9:27 AM
The one problem with the Alpine amp is installing it.
I got the Alpine amp working on the first go around, no diode, no extra stuff, no surge, just wired up and go.
You must have better ears than mine or the kickers need more power to produce. On the alpine amp, I could hear the front speakers ok, and the backs not at all at speed. With RF amp I could blow my brains out all around from any speaker at any given point in time with a full helmet and ear plugs in. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | The one problem with the Alpine amp is installing it. There are instructions on this site and also the VMC, forgot who provided them. The problem is they are not very clear on some steps. After 2 weekends of not being able to get it to work I took it to a local stereo shop. The installer had installed this unit on several bikes. He new what steps were missing from the instructions I was using plus a a couple wrong steps. One thing he did was install a couple of diods to protect against a surg. Like I noted before there is plenty of power to drive the Hertz speakers I installed which are a top line speaker. Doing 80 mph with the volume at 12 is clear and loud. I ride with both a 1/2 and ear plugs or a 3/4. Just a warning, if you upgrade to speakers with a large magnet the front speaker boxes will need to be reformed via a heat gun and this is a pain in the ass. For the rear speakes get some foam box covers, suff some speaker material in them at it will help boost the sound a little. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | I did not want to use up storage space for audio equipment. Instead of 1 big amp in the saddle bag or trunk, I found it much easier to hide 3 smaller ones.
Here is a link to the install process. (Click the arrow on the right side of the pic to go to the next pic. Captions underneath each pic.)
http://picasaweb.google.com/105510930734514474102/2008VictoryVision...
Here is a link to my original write up.
http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2301&pos...
.
Edited by victoryvisiontour 2012-02-14 1:29 PM
(AMP INSTALL.jpg)
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 AMP INSTALL.jpg (59KB - 11 downloads)
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | victoryvisiontour,
What amps are those?
Ride Safe |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | radioteacher - 2012-02-14 2:45 PM
victoryvisiontour,
What amps are those?
Ride Safe
They are Hawg Wired amps. They put out a lot of power for their little size. I guess that is why they are a bit pricey. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| victoryvisiontour - 2012-02-14 2:18 PM
radioteacher - 2012-02-14 2:45 PM
victoryvisiontour,
What amps are those?
Ride Safe
They are Hawg Wired amps. They put out a lot of power for their little size. I guess that is why they are a bit pricey.
Without a doubt you are paying for the cost of miniaturization With the Hawg Wired amps. I still have less in my whole upgrade than the cost of one of those amps.
I do will not give up cargo space for the amps. I will find a home for the new amp that's not taking up cargo space. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 249
Phenix City AL. | My plan is to mount the arc audio amp, in the bag, for the heat issue I am going to add a 12v 60mm 20mm fan, to pull heat out of the bag, the fan pulls 14qfm is this a good idea or not? To install the amp, I am getting a low level input converter, to have RCA plugs to hook up the speaker wires to the amp, is this worth doing? As for speaker install I am going to remove the plastic housings and install foam housings, is it worth the time? One last question, for the trigger wire for the amp,whats the best place to hook into? |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? HELLO? You'r bike must sound like one of those idiot low-rider Honda Civics with the WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP sound....
I am 68 years old, and at level 12 on my STOCK system with only replacement speakers - I can hear things fine at 60mph. Maybe getting the wax out of your ears would be cheaper???
HELLO? AM I ANNOYING YOU NOW? HELLO???? <grin - just teasing - mostly... >
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | They have it installed soley to annoy 68 years and older... I'm not there yet...but I'm too cheap to add the annoyance also...
For the posters - thanks for posting - as my hearing fades I may go to an amp, but I wouldn't know where to put it on an Indian... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | jb.hatch - 2012-02-23 11:10 PM My plan is to mount the arc audio amp, in the bag, for the heat issue I am going to add a 12v 60mm 20mm fan, to pull heat out of the bag, the fan pulls 14qfm is this a good idea or not? To install the amp, I am getting a low level input converter, to have RCA plugs to hook up the speaker wires to the amp, is this worth doing? As for speaker install I am going to remove the plastic housings and install foam housings, is it worth the time? One last question, for the trigger wire for the amp,whats the best place to hook into? I've been researching the audio upgrade area for quite a while. The ARC unit is pretty damn good, haven't really found any negative comments about it anywhere. As far as cooling the amp I'm thinking it probably won't be needed. There are tons of Harley riders who have this amp tucked in either the front fairing or the saddlebags and it appears that none of them have had heat issues. The ARC has low level inputs available so a line converter would not be needed. Removing the front speaker housings and switching to foam is worth it. The housings are held in with four "pressure" clips, simply grab hold of the housing and with some pressure it will pop right out. The ARC units have a sensor that detects incoming signal via the speaker inputs and triggers the amp to turn on. So...no trigger wire.
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| donetracey - 2012-02-23 11:04 PM
HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? HELLO? You'r bike must sound like one of those idiot low-rider Honda Civics with the WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP sound....
I am 68 years old, and at level 12 on my STOCK system with only replacement speakers - I can hear things fine at 60mph. Maybe getting the wax out of your ears would be cheaper???
HELLO? AM I ANNOYING YOU NOW? HELLO????
don, the stock setup was fine when I don't wear ear plugs or a full helmet. Its when the ear plugs and full helmet come, is when the stock system wasn't enough. I ear ear plugs and an half helmet 95% of the time. But my system has very little base, those low rider ricers kick my ass when it comes to that.
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| jb.hatch - 2012-02-23 9:10 PM
My plan is to mount the arc audio amp, in the bag, for the heat issue I am going to add a 12v 60mm 20mm fan, to pull heat out of the bag, the fan pulls 14qfm is this a good idea or not? To install the amp, I am getting a low level input converter, to have RCA plugs to hook up the speaker wires to the amp, is this worth doing? As for speaker install I am going to remove the plastic housings and install foam housings, is it worth the time? One last question, for the trigger wire for the amp,whats the best place to hook into?
I have a KS 125.4 and it handles the high level inputs from the Vic Stock head unit just fine. I wouldn't bother with line converts. The Arc amps also have auto on with high level inputs so a signal wire isn't required, the auto on works great. For a fan the KS 125.4 has a built in fan.
In my ride this past weekend, I have found that the Arc Amp runs MUCH MUCH cooler than the RF Amp. The Arc was barely warm to the touch but the RF amp use to get blazing hot.
I haven't found a permeate home for it yet, if I can't find a spot in the faring I am going to sacrifice a little space in the trunk to the audio gods.
So far I am VERY happy with the Arc Amp. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
| After looking at a lot of different options and not wanting to compromise the limited space in the bags, I went with the Hawg wired amp and had dealer here in MA. install. There is space right in front of the left bag ( underneath the left bag towards the front) that it fits clean. I think you can even fit a little larger amp in this area. It is protected from the elements and stays nice and cool. Hawg wired a bit expensive but it cranks! No worries. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 216
Danville, CA | Concur...Hawg wired is the solution if you want to do it right and have the spare cash for it.. 3rd set for me...  |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| I don't necessarily agree. I think that Hawg Wired but together a good small package, it works well for those who don't want to tinker, but much like HD, I think you are paying a lot for the name.
The Hawg wired amps are a class T, which is technically a class D, the RF amp is a class AB, and the Arc is a class H.
From a class standpoint the Hawg Wired will pack the most punch with the highest distortion, of the three available amps for the size, class D amps are often used for Sub woofers due to their higher level of distortion compared to the other amps, but typically class D amps are smaller.
The RF and the Arc amp will have a similar level of distortion with Arc being slightly better but the H class is much more efficient compared to the class AB of the RF. This means for the Arc amp, for the same level of power output, about the same or less distortion, plus you get a lot less heat. The trade off is size. Since I think Heat killed my RF amp I upgraded to the Arc amp. From the seat of the pants feel the Arc could blast circles around the RF Amp. Plus the build quality of the Arc is leaps and bounds over the RF.
At the end of the day I still have a few hundred less in my setup than the cost of the Hawg Wired amps alone.
The Vision is already a bad plat form for audio equipment, I didn't want to make it worse by adding a higher distortion amp that cost more.
But to each their own. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | Kelvininin,
Do you have a link to the Arc amp? I am always open to a better idea.
Ride Safe |
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Tourer
Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM | Been checking it out also...kinda pricey. I guess you get what you pay for. $400 on their site
http://store.arcaudio.com/products/productdetail/part_number=KS%201... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| Radio,
Here is the link to the Arc KS125.4 from the manufacturer..
http://www.arcaudio.com/product-pages/amplifiers/ks-series/ksm1254....
Here it is on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARC-AUDIO-KS-125-4-MINI-NIB-/160733132967?p...
Once I find a home for it I will have to find pictures of where I put it. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 21
Fernandina Beach, Florida | Kelvinin, any update to your investigation.? What amp/speakers did you wind up going wityh? Any pics?
I'm about to be a new Vision owner (11/17/12 pick up), and will be looking at audio upgrades pretty soon after. Hopefully it was a great and successful project.
Thanks, and I look forward to a great ride onmy Vision and great times with all of you.
Will be doing a formal intro after I get the bike home (sorta superstitious about that).
Steve |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Does the RF PBR300x4 fit on top of the left fuel tank same as the Alpine amp? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| I have the arc amp. The RF PBR300X4 burned up in less than three months. The arc amp is a far superior amp in construction, performance, heat management and quality. Had I to do over again, I would have gone straight to the arc amp. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | My RF PBR300X4 died as well. I feel bad for recommending it to everyone.
Live and learn.
Ride Safe |
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | My RF PBR300X4 is still running fine, did the install this spring, and I like it loud! I took it to a stereo shop and they adjusted the outputs to the point of speaker distortion with the head unit volume at 27 or 28 and measured it with an oscilloscope(?). Of course, I bought the extended warranty which is prolly the real reason it hasn't failed. Give it one year and a day.... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Baadawg, I have finally made up my mind on Polk MM521 speakers. I really want to do the RF amp. The MM521 are 15-90W peak of 200W, marine certified.
Where is your amp mounted? If it won't fit on top of the left fuel tank I may do the Alpine. My saddlebags are very often packed full. The Arc amp is out of my budget at this time. |
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | I put mine in the left side saddlebag, mounted against the front so it might benefit from a cooler surface and cooler running pipe. I've thought about putting wire mesh of some sort around it with a computer fan blowing on it, that way I can pack more in that side. It does get hot, but not as hot as it did before I took it to a car stereo shop so they could analyze it.
My speakers are only rated for 135 watts/pair. I'll have to check those other ones out! Since yours can handle more power, your amp will likely run hotter, but it isn't waterproof. Good luck on your install!
(2012-11-13 19.27.37 Saddlebag amp install.jpg)
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2012-11-13 19.27.37 Saddlebag amp install.jpg (14KB - 4 downloads)
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Thanks. The MM521 list for $229 a pair. Several new on eBay in the 120-140 range. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | cw1115 - 2012-11-12 6:58 PM
Does the RF PBR300x4 fit on top of the left fuel tank same as the Alpine amp?
My Hawg Wired amp is tightly squeezed on top of the left fuel tank and it is smaller than the RF PBR300X4. So my guess is it will not fit. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | cw1115 - 2012-11-13 6:35 PM
Baadawg, I have finally made up my mind on Polk MM521 speakers. I really want to do the RF amp. The MM521 are 15-90W peak of 200W, marine certified. .
I'm running the Polk db521 speakers and they sound great and get very loud but stay clear using the RF PBR300X4 amp. They are marine certified so they're perfect for the bike. They cost about $89/pair.
I've mounted my amp in the same location as badawg and have cut an opening in the saddlebag behind the amp. I have a small pancake computer fan mounted in the front cubby of the saddlebag blowing directly on the amp. It still runs hot but hasn't fried yet. I have the fan come on whenever the bike is running (it's not switched with the radio).
My problem is that once the amp turns on (senses signal at its input), it doesn't turn off even if the radio is then turned off. The amp stays on, building up heat until the bike is shut off. Anyone else have this happening? I've corresponded with Fosgate support and they say the amp needs to see a 6volt offset to power on/off. Not quite sure what that means.
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | I don't get a lot of what some of you are saying. On a bike the only thing an amp will provide is more power to the speakers. Throw pure clairity out the window do to all the wind, engine and pipe noise, do you really think you are hearing all the highs and lows these amps provide like they would in a car? My son has a degree in sound engineering and he laughs at the mods people do. Your riding a fricken bike your not in a Lexus car. I took his suggestion, bought the Alpine amp (cheap cost $99) to drive the speakers and provide a minor improvement in clarity, but this is mainly do to the power increase. The Alpine fits very nice in the rear hole under the trunk area. It also kicks almost no little heat so no fan required. I'm just saying, if you feel better by spending a ton of money and fooling yourself, have at it. |
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | Riverdawg, your objectives and reasons may not be the same as someone elses. So get off your high horse! I'm not criticizing your choice of Alpine, am I? It's your ride, your choice. If you don't like choice, don't come to an online forum like this. Just hand the dealer/business of choice your money and tell him to give you what he thinks you should have. This a place to discuss ideas for improvements on our common interest, Victory Motorcycles.
That said, I chose Rockford Fosgate due to it's low energy requirement. It is the amp of choice for electric vehicles. I may have paid a little more than you did, but not by too much considering that I am doing my stator a favor. Maybe the battery too if I listen to it in the garage without a charger on it at the time. I also have hearing loss due to an accident when I was a teenager. Hearing aids are several thousand dollars per ear for the ones that will help me the most, and nothing will take away the loud and constant ringing in my ears. I can hear just fine on the forum, in real life people can speak up a little and an amplifier with speakers that can handle the power trumps the hearing aids with weekly battery changes. Now, the radio is the way I like it, I'm happy with it and if I can help someone else out with theirs, I will. I'll also feel good about it while you'll still be a blustering mouth breather. |
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | It seems I got my knickers in a twist. If you'll please excuse me..... After my knee surgery I haven't ridden much and am suffering from PMS. I hate parked motorcycle syndrome. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | As I plan on wearing my modular helmet most of the time, I think I'll start out with a decent BT headset (and all the expensive Vic stuff to make it work) first. I'll probably add an amp and better speakers later.
Riverdawg --- Increased power is exactly what it's supposed to do. Volume stays lower but the speakers can be driven to their maximum potential before they distort. A good amp (especially with some better than stock speakers) will sound much better (clarity) than no amp. The stock radio isn't very strong. Most of them aren't. With my helmet on, I can't clearly hear the radio without cranking it up so much that it's terribly distorted. With an amp, I could hear it better. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | My point is for those who are considering an amp, if you think a highend amp will make the sound quality equal to or close to what you get in a car, that won't happen. An amp will drive the speakers with more power which increases the sound, it also allows you to have a much better speaker were the driver can handle the power without blowing, that is were the improved clarity will be, in the upgraded speaker. Thus a cheaper power amp + a high end speaker = much improved sound. Spend the money in speakers not the amp. |
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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Riverdawg - 2012-11-15 2:22 PM
My point is for those who are considering an amp, if you think a highend amp will make the sound quality equal to or close to what you get in a car, that won't happen. An amp will drive the speakers with more power which increases the sound, it also allows you to have a much better speaker were the driver can handle the power without blowing, that is were the improved clarity will be, in the upgraded speaker. Thus a cheaper power amp + a high end speaker = much improved sound. Spend the money in speakers not the amp.
I don't buy it. The RF amp is about as cheap as you're going to find while still delivering decent THD and S/N ratio. Cheaper amps will easily be driven to distortion at the levels we need going down the road. It doesn't require having a background in audio engineering, which I do, to hear distortion from cheap amps thru high quality (or low quality for that matter) speakers. Amp specs play a very important part in the quality of sound even in a noisy environment.
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Jeff, I have an engeering question than. The MM521 speakers are 2.7 ohms. They claim they are "(compatible with virtually all factory or aftermarket car stereos)". I plan on running the amp at 4 ohm. I am also confused by the 15-90W power range. Does that mean it takes a min. of 15W to drive these? I was planning on the amp down the road. How will that work with the stock radio only putting out a 23W max?
Here are the specs:
Highlights:
5-1/4" 2-way speakers (pair)
woven honeycomb glass fiber composite woofer cone with butyl rubber surround
1" silk composite dome tweeter with swivel mount
certified for marine use
2.7-ohm impedance for extra power (compatible with virtually all factory or aftermarket car stereos)
power range: 15-90 watts RMS (200 watts peak power)
frequency response: 50-25,000 Hz
sensitivity: 92 dB @ 2.83 V
top-mount depth: 2-3/8"
warranty: 1 year
Thanks
Edited by cw1115 2012-11-15 3:42 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 499
Chattanooga, TN | Michael, I know you asked the Jedi a question, and noticed one potential issue IF you are still planning on the RF amp. It is for 4 ohm speakers only. 2 ohm speakers will fry it like a side of bacon. I guess that is part of the efficiency of the amp. Others have said that they didn't experience any issues with a lower ohm speakers and the factory radio not matching exactly, but with that particular amp it could be an issue. I'm no engineer, so that's all I've got. Good luck. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl | Thank you for the input. I may call Polk's tech line tomorrow. Always plan "B". DB521s and the Alpine amp.
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