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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 15
St. Louis Mo. | I have a 2009 Vision Arlen Ness edition that I recently purchased with 0 miles. It has 180 miles on it as of today. The bike does have Victory performance pipes (stage 1 I think). I traded an 08 Vision tour which had over 18,000 miles on it. The bike I traded I bought used with 16,000 miles with stock exhaust. The 08 started after it fired the first time every time even when it was below 40, which I assumed was normal for a fuel injected computerized engine. This new bike requires me to hold the starter for several seconds 10+ at times. It will start then idle for 15-20 seconds die and require a restart, which again I'm holding the starter to get it to "catch". When the bike is warm it's fine. I've ridden the bike 20+ miles at a time (some highway) and always warm it up before I ride it. I don't think this is normal or that the ecm will learn and fix itself. Love the bike, but have had carburated bikes that were much easier to start than this one. Is there a fix here LLoyds?? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | John,
I had the same issue. Check out this forum thread about it. Should be a temporary thing, once you bike's ECU "learns"
http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10000&po... |
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Tourer
Posts: 500
| Put some more miles on it and things should be okay...In most cases, as said above, it should resolve itself soon......If not I quess you head for the dealer. Good Luck |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | Try hooking up the battery tender . My 2008 had hard starts on days below 40 degrees F but with the tender on it had less trouble |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| That sounds like the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve isn't operating as it should. When the engine is cold the IAC is opened further by the ECM in order to allow more air to bypass the throttle bodies in order to maintain idle speed. If it isn't working correctly then the engine will just barely start if it does at all and then stall or idle very slowly until it warms up. One thing to try is to disconnect the IAC valve and then "re-set" it. Here's how you do it: the IAC is located directly behind the right side chrome triangular cheese wedge. Pull the cover straight off. You'll see the valve right underneath it. There is an electrical plug attached to it. Unplug it for a moment and then reconnect it again. Now turn the key on but don't start the engine. Wait about 5 seconds and then turn the key off. Wait a few seconds and you'll hear a lite vibrating noise. This is the IAC resetting itself which it does every time you turn the ignition off. Now turn the key on, wait 5 seconds and start the engine. If this doesn't fix it then you'll need to take it to the dealer who can put it on their Digital Wrench and see what is malfunctioning. Riding it further will not in of itself fix this problem.
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 15
St. Louis Mo. | Thanks for the help. I'm going to try the IAC reset first. It idles slow and dies, so that makes the most sense. I think if it was a problem with the ecm learning it would be getting better, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It is noticeably worse the colder it is, so I'll post back if the reset works. |
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Tourer
Posts: 599
New Mexico | I am testing Pulstar plugs. Not sure of all their claims, but does start better when cold. Been down below 20 degrees and starts right up. Here is a thread on them:
http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7195&sta...
And here's their website:
http://www.pulstar.com/
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | With only 180 miles and temperatures continuing to get colder (as you stated) the bike hasn't had a chance to learn anything.
I would not crank for 10+ seconds. Not good for the starter, and the bike learns nothing by cranking.
If it doesn't catch after a couple seconds, but sounds like it's trying, crack the throttle slightly. It should catch.
After it catches and is running let go of the throttle. It will likely stall. Stalling is a 'learning' experience.
If, after two or three sessions like that, and temperature stays near constant, you still have a problem, then it's dealer time. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Boots - 2012-01-05 7:09 PM
I am testing Pulstar plugs. Not sure of all their claims, but does start better when cold. Been down below 20 degrees and starts right up. Here is a thread on them:
http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7195&sta...
And here's their website:
http://www.pulstar.com/
Mine has crappy worn out champion plugs that should have been replaced 30,000 miles ago and it starts right up at 18 degrees. Just sayin' |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 15
St. Louis Mo. | I reset the IAC and that seemed to help, the idle came up as soon as it started. This may have been the problem all along. Thanks, Marc. The temp was also higher close to 50. I will ride it tonight after I get off work, since we are having incredible weather for January. Being in the automotive business I can't imagine a new car having to learn how to start and stay running. Customers would freak. This is my first fuel injected motorcycle (second actually) and I'm suprised with all the technology and R&D that Polaris wouldn't have this figured out. I still love the Vision. My Harley owning co-worker said with a smile "nice bike but will it start?". |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | the tide will turn John and you'll be able to say that to him, especially when you're riding on really cold days and he isn't. I have had the entire motorcycle parking to myself most of the fall and into the winter. BTW, where are you from? Can you put that in your profile? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| johnurankar - 2012-01-06 4:52 PM
I reset the IAC and that seemed to help, the idle came up as soon as it started. This may have been the problem all along. Thanks, Marc. The temp was also higher close to 50. I will ride it tonight after I get off work, since we are having incredible weather for January. Being in the automotive business I can't imagine a new car having to learn how to start and stay running. Customers would freak. This is my first fuel injected motorcycle (second actually) and I'm suprised with all the technology and R&D that Polaris wouldn't have this figured out. I still love the Vision. My Harley owning co-worker said with a smile "nice bike but will it start?".
If the idle came up as soon as it started then it is most likely fixed. Mine will idle at about 1100 rpm when its cold and then settle down to 900 once it fully warms up. It'll be interesting to see how it goes when the temps are lower. If its working correctly it will do the same thing. Did you notice it making a little vibrating sound when you shut it off? It should do that every time a few seconds after you turn the key off.
Marc |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | This whole "learning" thing the engine is supposed to do, is it fact or fiction? I have never heard of any type of vehicle that needs to "learn".
Or is this similar to an oil thread where the rider is positive that the bike is quieter, faster, corners better, because he switched to synthetic? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 228
| rwilly - 2012-01-06 9:17 PM
This whole "learning" thing the engine is supposed to do, is it fact or fiction? I have never heard of any type of vehicle that needs to "learn".
Or is this similar to an oil thread where the rider is positive that the bike is quieter, faster, corners better, because he switched to synthetic?
The whole learning thing is "fact".
If you unhook the battery cables on a computer controlled vehicle it resets the ECM to a factory default. It will in turn learn to idle, how you drive etc. My '06 Ram diesel pickup even does this. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | varyder - 2012-01-06 8:57 PM
the tide will turn John and you'll be able to say that to him, especially when you're riding on really cold days and he isn't. I have had the entire motorcycle parking to myself most of the fall and into the winter.
There are approximately 30 HD "owners" where I work. I haven't seen one other bike for over 3 months. I only missed 2 days due to ice. It was over 50 degrees yesterday and still none of them rode in. Motorcycle parking has been all mine. The MC parking is at the front door, so I purposely park crooked, across 3 spaces, and other haphazard ways. I stopped next to a cage at a red light yesterday. I look over and one of my work buddies is sitting behind the wheel with his leather riding jacket on. We make eye contact and he proceeds to lift his middle finger in jealousy.
Glad it was an easy fix for you, johnurankar. The tides WILL turn as varyder says.
Edited by victoryvisiontour 2012-01-07 9:32 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | savage - 2012-01-07 9:53 AM rwilly - 2012-01-06 9:17 PM This whole "learning" thing the engine is supposed to do, is it fact or fiction? I have never heard of any type of vehicle that needs to "learn". Or is this similar to an oil thread where the rider is positive that the bike is quieter, faster, corners better, because he switched to synthetic? The whole learning thing is "fact". If you unhook the battery cables on a computer controlled vehicle it resets the ECM to a factory default. It will in turn learn to idle, how you drive etc. My '06 Ram diesel pickup even does this. Had my Ranger in for new cooling lines, they had to disconnect and remove the battery. Took a couple days before starting got good enough that the Remote Start would work. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | savage - 2012-01-07 8:53 AM
rwilly - 2012-01-06 9:17 PM
This whole "learning" thing the engine is supposed to do, is it fact or fiction? I have never heard of any type of vehicle that needs to "learn".
Or is this similar to an oil thread where the rider is positive that the bike is quieter, faster, corners better, because he switched to synthetic?
The whole learning thing is "fact".
If you unhook the battery cables on a computer controlled vehicle it resets the ECM to a factory default. It will in turn learn to idle, how you drive etc. My '06 Ram diesel pickup even does this.
True. Which is why automotive shops today plug a "memory saver" into your cigarette lighter before they unhook your battery for service or replacement. The devices keep the ECU powered so it doesn't lose it's learned settings while your battery is being replaced.
Ronnie |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| This is a real basic explanation. The ability for the engine control system to adjust itself is called Adaptive Strategy. There are two variations; short term and long term. Short term relates to the current engine state. These are adjustments made to the fuel injection and timing based on real-time feedback from the O2 sensors and other controls.
Long term strategy is a bit more complicated. The system comes with mapping which instructs the various functions such as fuel and timing what to do under various situations such as temperature, load, etc in order to maintain the prescribed state of tune and emissions. The map can be fine tuned within a very narrow band by monitoring the output of the engine sensors over a long period of time. This constant tuning is the basis of Adaptive Strategy. This updated map works in conjunction with the basic map and in many cases can be lost if the system computer loses power. When that happens the system has to start all over collecting data and making adjustments. Sometimes this isn't all bad. In my case I have a 335i BMW that suffers from turbo lag. Its computer has been re-flashed (updated) a couple of times since I've had it and each time the lag disappears and the car runs great. This only lasts for a month or so before its back with the same lag. This is Adaptive Strategy at work unfortunately. And it isn't a case of just pulling the plug once in a while to get the original map back. The updated data is held in non-volatile memory which means it maintains its data even if there isn't any power to it. The only way to clear it is to re-flash the system again so I'm out of luck.
The Power Commander system has its own adaptive add-on called AutoTune. It works the same way as described above. The PC has a basic fuel map loaded and AutoTune will constantly monitor the engine's fuel mixture by sampling the exhaust making temporary adjustments to the basic map called "trims." From time to time the owner can go into the basic map and make those trims permanent by "accepting" them. The advantage to the PC system is that it works outside of government regulations and therefore can make major changes to emissions while the OE system is regulated into very narrow parameters.
The original questions was if the system on our bikes is adaptive or not since I don't believe every system is. I went through the shop manual and I didn't come across any reference to it being adaptive. Maybe one of the factory trained guys like Kevinx might know for sure.
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| varyder - 2012-01-06 7:57 PM the tide will turn John and you'll be able to say that to him, especially when you're riding on really cold days and he isn't. I have had the entire motorcycle parking to myself most of the fall and into the winter. BTW, where are you from? Can you put that in your profile? varyder You don't say where your from. 
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 15
St. Louis Mo. | I rode last night it was 48 and it started fine. Then rode to work this morning and it was 39 started fine, idled 1200 initially and dropped to 900 after warm. I can hear the IAC running (makes a clicking sound) when I turn the key off, like my 08 did. Easy fix. This is what makes this forum (in my opinion) invaluable. Thanks |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | john frey - 2012-01-07 1:16 PM
varyder - 2012-01-06 7:57 PM the tide will turn John and you'll be able to say that to him, especially when you're riding on really cold days and he isn't. I have had the entire motorcycle parking to myself most of the fall and into the winter. BTW, where are you from? Can you put that in your profile? ? ?varyder You don't say where your from. ? ?
Hmmm - my from is in my handle ---- but I fixed that now, I thought it was there. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 232
| HAVE had my vision since aug 2011 it's a 011. Got cold out the thing got hard to start thought itwas plugs changed them didn't help. As time went by
it got better starting then the battery went dead(my fault). now it doing it again . So i think i'll try the IAC reset deal hope that helps. I learned something today. |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | marcparnes - 2012-01-07 9:32 AM
This is a real basic explanation. The ability for the engine control system to adjust itself is called Adaptive Strategy. There are two variations; short term and long term. Short term relates to the current engine state. These are adjustments made to the fuel injection and timing based on real-time feedback from the O2 sensors and other controls.
Long term strategy is a bit more complicated. The system comes with mapping which instructs the various functions such as fuel and timing what to do under various situations such as temperature, load, etc in order to maintain the prescribed state of tune and emissions. The map can be fine tuned within a very narrow band by monitoring the output of the engine sensors over a long period of time. This constant tuning is the basis of Adaptive Strategy. This updated map works in conjunction with the basic map and in many cases can be lost if the system computer loses power. When that happens the system has to start all over collecting data and making adjustments. Sometimes this isn't all bad. In my case I have a 335i BMW that suffers from turbo lag. Its computer has been re-flashed (updated) a couple of times since I've had it and each time the lag disappears and the car runs great. This only lasts for a month or so before its back with the same lag. This is Adaptive Strategy at work unfortunately. And it isn't a case of just pulling the plug once in a while to get the original map back. The updated data is held in non-volatile memory which means it maintains its data even if there isn't any power to it. The only way to clear it is to re-flash the system again so I'm out of luck.
The Power Commander system has its own adaptive add-on called AutoTune. It works the same way as described above. The PC has a basic fuel map loaded and AutoTune will constantly monitor the engine's fuel mixture by sampling the exhaust making temporary adjustments to the basic map called "trims." From time to time the owner can go into the basic map and make those trims permanent by "accepting" them. The advantage to the PC system is that it works outside of government regulations and therefore can make major changes to emissions while the OE system is regulated into very narrow parameters.
The original questions was if the system on our bikes is adaptive or not since I don't believe every system is. I went through the shop manual and I didn't come across any reference to it being adaptive. Maybe one of the factory trained guys like Kevinx might know for sure.
Marc
Interesting and informative. Thanks for posting in a way we can all understand. |
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Tourer
Posts: 599
New Mexico | varyder - 2012-01-05 7:41 PM
Mine has crappy worn out champion plugs that should have been replaced 30,000 miles ago and it starts right up at 18 degrees. Just sayin'
Mine has always been tough to start when cold, right out of the box. So maybe plugs are not really correcting the problem, but instead operate in a way to mask another problem...
marcparnes - 2012-01-05 2:27 PM
That sounds like the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve isn't operating as it should.
...such as this. Will give it a shot when I get a chance. Am late for an oil change, so maybe Monday will be a wrench day and will do the reset at the same time.
Edited by Boots 2012-01-07 9:29 PM
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Hard start when cold